Banjo-Kazooie Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Clanker literally has a level named after him and is not in the game.

Tooty is the game's wincon, and she is not in the game.

Color me paranoid about Kazooie and Mumbo now.

Though Kazooie being evil or not being in the game wpuld be a tweeest. Especially since I'm expecting the last mafia to be Klungo, since he's the #1 villain.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

#2 villain*

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Good job though, guys. Sometimes you just gotta lynch speedchuck.

[Russtifinko]

Good job, team.

I'll also tack on here, since Russ has already accused me of "twisting words": I don't care about that. I have to do that to make reads. Any time I am trying to make a case one way or another, I have to ask myself on every post if I can believe that player would say those words as each alignment. If I can imagine them saying something as either alignments, I'll share my argument for reading it as scum. I try to be fair and share both arguments when they both exist. But "twisting words" is a necessary part of my process. It always is and always has been.

You're even using "twisting words" differently from how I mean it haha. Obviously, to make a case for someone being bad you have to imagine an agenda behind their words. I'm fine with you doing that to me, or anyone. What you did in those previous posts was made up a different context that was not the case at the time, and then interpreted my posts in light of that non-existent context. That's the part I have an issue with. If you're making up situations, I can't defend myself, because I'm working from reality and you arent.

I haven't yet read your longer post to see if that's the case in it - probably won't, since my focus is on TH/dunya for tomorrow. But I think the things you're accusing me of being bad for only hold up if you, for example, assume I didn't believe dunya was claiming or didn't have you as locktown, when in reality, those were the case.

To be interpreting my actions as if they weren't is disingenuous,. You're saying you're seeing who has acted most civ lately, but your posts show you made your conclusion before you made your case.

[Sloonei]

Good job, team.

I'll also tack on here, since Russ has already accused me of "twisting words": I don't care about that. I have to do that to make reads. Any time I am trying to make a case one way or another, I have to ask myself on every post if I can believe that player would say those words as each alignment. If I can imagine them saying something as either alignments, I'll share my argument for reading it as scum. I try to be fair and share both arguments when they both exist. But "twisting words" is a necessary part of my process. It always is and always has been.

You're even using "twisting words" differently from how I mean it haha. Obviously, to make a case for someone being bad you have to imagine an agenda behind their words. I'm fine with you doing that to me, or anyone. What you did in those previous posts was made up a different context that was not the case at the time, and then interpreted my posts in light of that non-existent context. That's the part I have an issue with. If you're making up situations, I can't defend myself, because I'm working from reality and you arent.

I haven't yet read your longer post to see if that's the case in it - probably won't, since my focus is on TH/dunya for tomorrow. But I think the things you're accusing me of being bad for only hold up if you, for example, assume I didn't believe dunya was claiming or didn't have you as locktown, when in reality, those were the case.

To be interpreting my actions as if they weren't is disingenuous,. You're saying you're seeing who has acted most civ lately, but your posts show you made your conclusion before you made your case.

I spent the afternoon reading but not posting. When I eventually posted, I was stating the conclusions which I had drawn earlier.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Post count ceilings for Night 4:

192 Dragon D. Luffy
182 dunya
80 Russtifinko
197 Sloonei
155 Turnip Head

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Play Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, guys. I'm here having fun discussing flavor because those games are really that good.

[Russtifinko]

Play Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, guys. I'm here having fun discussing flavor because those games are really that good.

Is there a way to on Switch/PC?

I've been interested by them but never got around to it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Play Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, guys. I'm here having fun discussing flavor because those games are really that good.

Is there a way to on Switch/PC?

I've been interested by them but never got around to it.

No idea, but I happen to live in the one country where piracy is not illegal so I've never thought much about it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I looked at it online and it you want to play the game legally you need to own an Xbox One, sadly.

Or a Nintendo 64, I suppose.

[dunya]

i feel super spiteful, but i love reading that russti thinks sloonei is twisting his words. makes my night.

good job team!

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] how do you feel about russti's whole interaction with the thread on day 1 about not knowing how the posts were counted on a couple separate occassions (but nutella did). does that seem intentional to you?

[Sloonei]

i feel super spiteful, but i love reading that russti thinks sloonei is twisting his words. makes my night.

good job team!

@Sloonei how do you feel about russti's whole interaction with the thread on day 1 about not knowing how the posts were counted on a couple separate occassions (but nutella did). does that seem intentional to you?

I haven't given it too much consideration. I remember thinking that it was something of note, but not something that would be impossible to pull off if they are teammates.

I am going back on TH a little bit, actually.

[Sloonei]

One of the big points in my russ suspicion that I don't want to be overlooked, and which is magnified now, is the (lack of) interaction between him and speedchuck. Despite Russ making a big case on speed around Day 3, it does not appear that speedchuck ever cared or really even acknowledged the case at all. I don't know if that's unfair to say, given speed's relatively low profile in this game, and it's possible to look either way on that. But I'd like to know what others think of that.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Play Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, guys. I'm here having fun discussing flavor because those games are really that good.

Is there a way to on Switch/PC?

I've been interested by them but never got around to it.

No idea, but I happen to live in the one country where piracy is not illegal so I've never thought much about it.

Yeah, I never pirate things cause that’s illegal. If only I lived in Brazil.

[Russtifinko]

I looked at it online and it you want to play the game legally you need to own an Xbox One, sadly.

Or a Nintendo 64, I suppose.

Bummer. I do actually own an N64, so that seems like my best bet. We'll see if I actually ever get around to it.

Despite Russ making a big case on speed around Day 3, it does not appear that speedchuck ever cared or really even acknowledged the case at all.

You probably don't care about my opinion on this, but Speed didn't really acknowledge anything in the game, except to defend sig. So my case is hardly the exception.

[Sloonei]

I care plenty what you have to say, russ. Please don’t mistake me for having made up my mind. If that was the case, I wouldn’t be asking these questions.

But what you say is right, and it’s one of the reasons I’m still doubting my read: I don’t know how fair it is to say that speedchuck ignored one point in particular when he kept such a low profile overall.

We can turn toward his interactions with everyone with more scrutiny now that we have time and know his alignment.

[Turnip Head]

[Turnip Head]

I see Russ making posts, but I don't see those as active solving.

When I look at Russ, I see a player who is just trying to run out the clock on this day phase.

Let's take a moment to recap the past 48 hours. The day started with dunya attacking me, Russ questioning dunya's motives, and me counterattacking dunya. Speedchuck was not in much trouble until the latter half of the phase, after I changed my mind about dunya and she subsequently changed her mind about me. The fact that dunya and I changed our minds about each other and instead went with a speedchuck lynch (which I approved of here, though I still argued for a No Lynch just to be cautious), I think, clears dunya and I from having bad intentions. If either of us were bad with speedchuck, we would have continued trying to lynch the other so that victory would be sealed. The only thing that prevented a dunya or TH lynch was dunya and TH easing off their suspicions of each other, and we came together to lynch a baddie, so we are both good.

This brings me to Russtifinko.


EXHIBIT A THAT RUSSTIFINKO IS GAMESOLVING (please critically read the whole spoiler, it's a post by Russtifinko that serves as a primer to the rest of my argument because it shows his tone while hunting):

Spoiler: show

Well, I thought I posted this when I was on earlier today, but apparently it didn't go through.

did you read the thread? everyone i iso'd individually made me feel worse about TH tbh, starting with sloonei's iso of nutella. i have no doubt in my mind they are bad now. and i'm pretty sold on you being their teammate. if jack had flipped bad, TH coulda been good.

I feel like I let dunya down somehow cuz she did a complete 180 on me. Dunya what did I do?

Clearly I have read the thread, and clearly I'm not the only person confused about where this came from.

Calling it now: baddies are dunya/Speed. I now think dunya was buddying TH and is flipping on him now that victory is in sight.


Since then: RIP G-Man. dunya's sudden flip on TH feels to me like a baddie lashing out, and her reasoning for it is weak. TH "hasn't done anything" lately?? Why are you being dismissive of TH now? Where's the dunya who reached out to TH when they were getting frustrated and felt like no one was hearing them and said "I hear you?"

It feels like scum dunya has realized if she can lead a mislynch today she wins, so she moved to flip on the easiest remaining townie to mislynch and can't come up with a reason to justify it. With Sloon and DDL confirmed, Speed being her teammate, and her suspicion of me not taking off, TH is her only option left.

It's funny if we look at nutella russti and TH. They've all scum read 1 of them and townread 2.

If you're trying to make a point, make it. Are you saying the baddie move is to townread yourself and one teammate and scum read the other? If so, what did your GTH with Speed and nutella look like? This is being presented as helpful analysis, but it's just weak shade hoping someone else picks it up and runs with it.

FWIW, I also don't buy the fake "if I'm gone after tonight" bit. The POE for today is 4 people, max, and dunya knew she was one of them. No baddie in their right minds kills her last night. Trying to act like a worried civ.

Okay, so let me break it down clearly.

What follows is not speculation: these are logical statements that can be treated as true, followed by the logical extension of those facts into a theory.

• From RUSS THE TOWNIE's point of view, DDL is towncleared (mechanically via G-Man), and Sloonei is towncleared (circumstantially via nutella interactions), and so RUSS THE TOWNIE shares his home with three unknown entities: dunya, TH and speedchuck.
• From RUSS THE TOWNIE's point of view, two of those players have to be mafia.
• From RUSS THE TOWNIE's point of view, dunya and TH are accusing each other.
• So, perhaps assuming that speedchuck is bad no matter what (as most of us did) Russ spends the entire day digging into dunya and TH to figure out which one he trusts and which one he doesn't.
• RUSS THE TOWNIE eventually, it seems, decides that dunya is more likely to be bad than TH, and goes to great lengths to explain why.

As a townie, this is exactly what Russ has to do in this situation. In his unique situation, this is exactly how townie Russ has to solve the game. Even if you assume speedchuck is bad for RUSS THE TOWNIE, one of either dunya or TH is bad as well, and Russ spent the whole day trying to figure out who.

That doesn't even mention the fact that Russ did a pretty impressive case on speedchuck as well during this time period, which goes in-depth on his opinion of speedchuck at a time where a baddie Russ really didn't need to do all that work, and I can't remember anyone else putting in that much effort to case speedchuck at the time..




Now, let's consider if this was instead from RUSS THE HYPOTHETICAL BADDIE's point of view.

• From RUSS THE HYPOTHETICAL BADDIE's point of view, speedchuck is Russ' partner.
• From RUSS THE HYPOTHETICAL BADDIE's point of view, dunya and TH are both town, and lynching either one of them would win the game
• So from RUSS THE HYPOTHETICALL BADDIE's point of view, it doesn't really matter which of dunya or TH gets lynched. They are both town, and lynching either one of them would have won Russ the game.
• ??
• But that's NOT what happened. Instead, Russ went on and on and on AND ON about how he felt dunya looked more suspicious than TH during that exchange. Again, townie Russ did this because it is EXACTLY WHAT TOWN RUSS HAS TO DO HERE.

Okay, so let's consider why townie Russ was put in the false dichotomy of either me or dunya being bad in the first place (and then doing his due diligence to figure out who)

DDL is towncleared (mechanically via G-Man)
Sloonei is towncleared (via interactions with nutella)

This is the part that caused Russ to narrow his hunting between dunya and TH; for townie Russ, there are NO OTHER SUSPECTS, because even when speedchuck is bad, everyone else but dunya and TH are cleared from being speedchuck's partner.

And that's
because
We MISTAKENLY
cleared Sloonei


Stay tuned for Part 2....

[Sloonei]

You really mustn’t bother with Part II, my dear Turnip.

[Turnip Head]

You really mustn’t bother with Part II, my dear Turnip.

Part II is really just combing through your ISO and looking at how you treated nutella Day 1. Everyone should check it out. Just read Day 1 of Sloonei's ISO whenever you get the time, I promise it's worth it.

You poked her, you picked on her, you asked her typical Sloonei-like questions, you focused on her from the very beginning of the game and contunued until she died, but you *never* voted for her. I think that's rather telling. The best part is when you hop on the Mac wagon late in the Day 1 and in the same breath proclaim that nutella is Mac's teammate. I am cracking up reading that part of the thread right now.

You poked and prodded nutella a bit but when the Mac wagon appeared you jumped aboard and tried to tie nutella to Mac. Mac gets lynched, flips town and your teammate still looks innocent.

You also threw a brief random vote on speedchuck at one point on Day 1 that never went anywhere. Again this makes me think the scum team's strategy was to interact with each other in unintuitive ways. You used your TMI of each other to sort of goad each other in the thread. It's a highly effective scum strategy that Golden and I pulled off in Firefly Mafia; and Epi, LC, speedchuck and I very recently just did the same thing in Assassin's Creed Mafia. The concept is you spend a big portion of your energy fighting your teammates the whole game while never letting that be your full or only focus.

You fought with nutella on every issue the two of you mutually discussed, but you never pushed suspicion of her onto other players, and you never voted for her.




Part III is the really juicy part....

Part III is all about how you, as town, should never have accused Russ of not hunting yesterday. If you were town you would have seen the predicament that Russ was in and how he was absolutely doing what was required of him when he deliberated between me and dunya. In a world where you're town, you and DDL are cleared and the fight is between me and dunya, and Russti spends most of the day trying to pick between us. That was something that Russti absolutely had to do from a town perspective. If you were a town, you would intrinsically understand that.



IF you were TOWN, you would have UNDERSTOOD what Russ, as your fellow townie, was trying to accomplish yesterday.




But you're not town, you're a baddie,

And so, as a baddie, you saw Russti trying to debate between lynching two civilians (me and dunya), which led you to think you could safely accuse him of not trying to gamesolve.

And that's where you fucked up. As a townie, you wouldn't accuse him of not gamesolving in that situation, while as a baddie, you can accuse him of that, and frankly, you almost HAVE to accuse him of that, because you need to lynch an innocent townie tomorrow.

So yeah I basically just proved that you're bad.

[dunya]

If sloonei was bad he would have lynched me. I'm easiest to lynch in the event he's the last baddie.

Sloonei is town.

[dunya]

actually, having finished reading turnip's cases, i can sort of see it now. but still, i would see sloonei partners with russ/nutella more than with speed/nutella, i think. the night is young but something to chew on.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Btw, TH's claimed role is identical to nutella's (the real one, not her claim). Not even similar like G-Man's, it's the same role (watcher).

If TH is mafia, that claim has to be fake. Now, I'm not sure if Jay provides a role that is already in the faction as another mafioso's fake claim. It's possible, but a little weird. And if that's true, then TH has to have made his role up as opposed to using whatever fake ability he got. It's a risk, and might be an unecessary one.

Wonder how likely each of those things are.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention] Sloonei is not cleared because of interactions with nutella. He is cleared because he attepted to give an item to Russtifinko early on, breadcrumbed it, and while Russ did not receive the item, MP later revealed to have used an ability that blocked Russ from receiving it.

So baddie Sloon had to have falsely breadcrumbed something without knowing MP would later provide a reason for why it failed.

The only way I see that working is if Sloonei went around writing a bunch of posts that could have looked like breadcrumbs so that later on he could seize whatever claim a town player made to justify it, or maybe not even do that and just shrug about why his item giveout failed. Granted, while Sloonei did ask dunya/russ about receiving the item, he did that after MP's claim, so the breadcrumb is the only evidence prior to MP's claim that we have.

[dunya]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] who did you think was going to die night 3 the night you attempted to give gman the item?

[dunya]

Btw, TH's claimed role is identical to nutella's (the real one, not her claim). Not even similar like G-Man's, it's the same role (watcher).

If TH is mafia, that claim has to be fake. Now, I'm not sure if Jay provides a role that is already in the faction as another mafioso's fake claim. It's possible, but a little weird. And if that's true, then TH has to have made his role up as opposed to using whatever fake ability he got. It's a risk, and might be an unecessary one.

Wonder how likely each of those things are.

their claim is odd.

and jay is not lacking in creativity that he assigns 1 watcher role to each faction so it is still a hmmmm question mark question mark

[dunya]

but also, giving turnip head a fake claim as watcher when nutella was a mafia watcher is not likely to be jay's doing. i know he wanted to balance the game, but this seems way out of those bounds. either we believe they are a town aligned 2-shot watcher, or we believe turnip made up that whole fake claim on their own lol.

[dunya]

turnip spending the whole day casing sloonei is a good fake tinfoil suspicion too. it's likely to make sloonei (and anyone else) feel better about them when they do exactly what sloonei accused russ of not doing. why take a very hard way out when you are the last scum than latch onto someone easy? TH likes a challenge, maybe.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Another thing that is worth nting is that Jay is veeeeeeeeeery wary about including watchers in his setups. He really believes they are the strongest civ role ever, stronger than a cop. You can find some posts he made about that in those threads about game design. I wouldn't expect to see a watcher in a Jay game often, much less coupled with other info roles.

So we have to believe he included a tracker, a watcher, a vig, a jailkeeper, a vanilla cop, and Sloonei's role that can also very easily be used for confirming things. Granted he said he would make the civ faction more powerful, but thats A LOT of power.

This insane list makes me feel better about dunya's and Russtifinko's roles. Russ is a vanilla, and dunya's role, while powerful, is a different dimension of power that doesn't overwhelm that much compared to adding multiple investigative roles.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] can you give items to people or are you out of shots?

[dunya]

Another thing that is worth nting is that Jay is veeeeeeeeeery wary about including watchers in his setups. He really believes they are the strongest civ role ever, stronger than a cop. You can find some posts he made about that in those threads about game design. I wouldn't expect to see a watcher in a Jay game often, much less coupled with other info roles.

that's a very good observation. +1 well done.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think I have a plan, but I need Sloonei's item thing.

[dunya]

well that ain't happening cos one of you or sloonei is dying today for sure so

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Never mind, my plan is not perfect.

[Sloonei]

I’ll answer questions during the day. I don’t expect to die at this point. I’m probably leaning toward a vote for Turnip.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Don't let TH get away without am ability result tomorrow, guys.

[dunya]

so are you guys certain without a doubt russ is town looking?

[dunya]

i mean, TH can come in tomorrow and say he targeted sloonei/ddl whoever dies from them and say russ/dunya did it.

what then?

[Turnip Head]

Why would I be doing any of this if I'm bad lol Think about it.

[Sloonei]

Why would I be doing any of this if I'm bad lol Think about it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

i mean, TH can come in tomorrow and say he targeted sloonei/ddl whoever dies from them and say russ/dunya did it.

what then?

We have 50% chance of winning instead of 33%.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

certain without a doubt

That is some dangerus working

[Dragon D. Luffy]

wording*

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Imo TH > Russ > dunya > Sloonei in order of who I want to lynch but that list has changed at least 3 times during this morning's catch up and might change again

[Turnip Head]

Sloonei is the bad guy tho, did anyone even read my well reasoned case? I've spent a lot of energy trying to clear my townreads and build a case on the bad guy

[Sloonei]

Sloonei is the bad guy tho, did anyone even read my well reasoned case? I've spent a lot of energy trying to clear my townreads and build a case on the bad guy

Nahhhhhh

[dunya]

i mean, TH can come in tomorrow and say they targeted sloonei/ddl whoever dies from them and say russ/dunya did it.

what then?

We have 50% chance of winning instead of 33%.

i mean if they're bad, they're guaranteed to do that. smart role and smart they only used 1 of their shots for lylo.

my thoughts on russ:

1. nutella and russ don't make sense as partners to me at all. i'm weighing a lot on russ' confusion of how the posts are counted, but i just do not believe it was malicious and sly intent in the questions. russ looked like he really didn't know. nutella knew all about them, so i dunno.
2. russ doesn't come up with that whole thing about me dreaming of jack as a reason to scum read me if he was scum imo. it's like so bad, a mafioso would have played it in his head a few times and thought no, this is crazy mind gymnastics that no one in their right mind would believe. but russ actually DOES believe i'm bad so everything i do doesn't seem like much of a stretch to him.
3. russ has tunneled me like i've never been tunneled before; it's like a glaring fault in his play and i feel like scum russ wouldn't want to draw that much negative attention to himself.

points not in favor of russ:

1. how he handled jack/speed. how he wanted to get rid of all blame from the jack lynch and blame me (this can also be seen as another excuse to scum read me in russ' tunneling brain though). i also felt like it was disingenuous of him to say speed is 90% scum while i am 80% scum. where is the thread-work to prove that russ has that feeling about speed before his almost-certain lynch yesterday? also he was a bit cocky when talking to speed "i don't care what you say because im not gonna believe anything you say and nothing will change my mind" -- feels a bit over the top.
2. he manipulates intentions in my posts and projects malice into them in a way that a scum could do to build suspicion around them.
3. his reads are not developing as sloonei pointed out. i have been his target since day 1. he hasn't budged on me no matter what. i find that hard to believe as a townie you can't be that certain of someone's townieness or scuminess unless you have a cop result. but throughout this game it feels like russ has already made his conclusions about who to suspect and who to trust and he picks posts out from the thread to support those reads rather than developing them organically as the game progresses. he seems to be alien to the concept that a person can change their read on a person, and i'm not sure if that's a point against him or for him, because it's such a different play style than one i am used to.

[dunya]

Sloonei is the bad guy tho, did anyone even read my well reasoned case? I've spent a lot of energy trying to clear my townreads and build a case on the bad guy

let's say if it's not sloonei, who do you think it is?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

i mean, TH can come in tomorrow and say they targeted sloonei/ddl whoever dies from them and say russ/dunya did it.

what then?

We have 50% chance of winning instead of 33%.

i mean if they're bad, they're guaranteed to do that. smart role and smart they only used 1 of their shots for lylo.

Still having to decide on a 50% chance on whether TH is telling the truth or not is better than having the group decide between 3 people (or 4, depending on Sloonei paranoia) which from my mafia experience usually results in failure.

[dunya]

all that said, i feel like TH looks worse based on speed/nutella isos but not on their gameplay alone. i'll probably cough those up soon.

and TH's role claim is just a hard one to swallow for me given all the other claims that have flipped, and especially after DDL told us how much jay hates watcher roles. but it's still a big ???? why they would have claimed town watcher. unless they were anticipating this LyLo gambit.