Magic the Gathering Mafia - Game Over - Mafia has won!

[tutuu]

If I had voted Wilgy, nothing stops LC from voting JPIC and yeeting Tony.

yea well tony was mafia? so i dont see the problem? if u had voted for wilgy, a mafia would have been chopped on d3

[Jackofhearts2005]

If I had voted Wilgy, nothing stops LC from voting JPIC and yeeting Tony.

Except Tony was a wolf right? Lol

If I voted Wilgy, nothing stops Enrique from voting JPIC and yeeting me.

Town did not mechanically control the yeet D3.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

[tutuu]

If I had voted Wilgy, nothing stops LC from voting JPIC and yeeting Tony.

Except Tony was a wolf right? Lol

If I voted Wilgy, nothing stops Enrique from voting JPIC and yeeting me.

Town did not mechanically control the yeet D3.

then enrique gets questioned why did he vote for jpic at the last second

even in normal games wolves potentially have the power to cfd

a mountainous game in which a cfd occurs to save a wolf partner does not make mountainous games broken

[tutuu]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

should let players vent but hosts cant vent, they are your retail workers that are supposed to just smile and nod along am i right

[Jackofhearts2005]

your criticism is not legit

wolves had no mechanical control over who gets chopped. town had.

town also had kill power

Your proposed plan only works if ALL players play along, even wolves.

I literally had no ability to effect the yeet as a townie for half the game.

That’s broken.

Town had to catch and all specifically agree on two wolves to yeet a wolf D3.

Town had to catch specifically JPIC and all agree on D4.

That’s broken.

I’m not upset I lost. I like being fooled. I have never once been mad at a wolf for tricking me. I probably have lost half of the town games I’ve played. Maybe more.

For you to dismiss criticism of this game by calling me a poor sport is bullshit and rude.

if wolves didnt play along with the most pro-town plan you could have chopped them

you had the ability to affect the chop on d3, on d4 u had ur voice

the town had no just agree to chop a wolf on d3

town didnt have to catch specifically jpic. it was 2 townies and 1 mafia deciding the chop. then jpic made it 50/50 between himself and a town. "Town had to catch specifically JPIC and all agree on D4. - this line makes no sense

i dont think the setup was broken

Except we didn’t control the yeet D4 either because the wolves had the ability to take 3 wolves off the poll.

It didn’t matter if most of the wolf team outted D3.

Which ignores that “it would make them look bad to do X” is not the same as “they couldn’t do X.”

[tutuu]

Except we didn’t control the yeet D4 either because the wolves had the ability to take 3 wolves off the poll.

It didn’t matter if most of the wolf team outted D3.

Which ignores that “it would make them look bad to do X” is not the same as “they couldn’t do X.”

in order to take 3 wolves off the poll they had to make it 50/50 between a wolf and a town...

just because they could forcibly grab control of the d3 chop even if town played perfectly, i dont see how thats broken? they could - and they would look bad for it. whats the issue?

[tutuu]

(and town didnt even play perfectly on d3)

[Jackofhearts2005]

As long as town doesn’t play perfectly, game can’t be broken, right?

I’m not arguing town deserved to win this game.

I’m arguing the game was broken and town only had the ability to yeet their top suspect on D1 and D2.

[tutuu]

As long as town doesn’t play perfectly, game can’t be broken, right?

I’m not arguing town deserved to win this game.

I’m arguing the game was broken and town only had the ability to yeet their top suspect on D1 and D2.

"As long as town doesn’t play perfectly, game can’t be broken, right?" im not arguing that, im responding to what i perceived to be ur argument about why the reverse chop was broken

if thats not it, i still dont understand why u think it was broken

town had the ability to chop mafia on all 4 days. ive laid out why multiple times. the game wasn't perfect but it wasn't broken

[Jackofhearts2005]

You keep bringing up mistakes the town made as a defense against criticism of the game’s balance.

[tutuu]

You keep bringing up mistakes the town made as a defense against criticism of the game’s balance.

you are arguing that the d3 chop was broken because even if town played perfectly they could have been robbed of it. thats what i understood

so i responded with "town didnt even play perfectly in the first place. but even if they did, a mafia would have looked scummy for the unexplained cfd"

am i missing something?

[Jackofhearts2005]

You keep bringing up mistakes the town made as a defense against criticism of the game’s balance.

you are arguing that the d3 chop was broken because even if town played perfectly they could have been robbed of it. thats what i understood

so i responded with "town didnt even play perfectly in the first place. but even if they did, a mafia would have looked scummy for the unexplained cfd"

am i missing something?

How the town played is 100% irrelevant to the overall balance of most setups and it’s entirely irrelevant here.

Town plays 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and have to look bad but it doesn’t matter because they can take themselves off the poll.

Town doesn’t play 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and they don’t even have to look bad doing it

Wolves control the yeet either way, which is broken. Town’s performance doesn’t enter into it.

[tutuu]

Town plays 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and have to look bad but it doesn’t matter because they can take themselves off the poll.

wrong

if town played perfectly u would have voted for wilgy or jpic instead of essentially no-voting on d3. town (and ultimately u) had control there

3 wolves were taken off the poll on d3 but also a whole bunch of town. the ability was public. town could have scumread the person responsible for taking people off the poll and thunderdoming a marked target. town could have voted jpic. town could have convinced epi and hkatt to vote jpic. epi and hkatt could have listened to the other townies

wolves did not mechanically control the yeet

[tutuu]

were taken off the poll d4*

[tutuu]

i am done with this.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

should let players vent but hosts cant vent, they are your retail workers that are supposed to just smile and nod along am i right

This seems uncalled for

You know I host frequently, I am no stranger to people complaining about a setup in post. Frustrating or not, sometimes people need to vent and that's OK, responding with emotion just leads to hurt feelings and frustration on both sides. I get it, you put a lot of work into this setup and its frustrating to see people complain about or criticize it. Realize that they aren't customers venting at retail workers, they're fellow community members expressing an opinion. You can ignore that opinion if you think its wrong, but firing back does little good.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Town plays 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and have to look bad but it doesn’t matter because they can take themselves off the poll.

wrong

if town played perfectly u would have voted for wilgy or jpic instead of essentially no-voting on d3. town (and ultimately u) had control there

3 wolves were taken off the poll on d3 but also a whole bunch of town. the ability was public. town could have scumread the person responsible for taking people off the poll and thunderdoming a marked target. town could have voted jpic. town could have convinced epi and hkatt to vote jpic. epi and hkatt could have listened to the other townies

wolves did not mechanically control the yeet

What are you talking about? Wolves controlled the yeet entirely D3 because it was not mechanically possible for the town to vote all town players unless they correctly identified and all agreed on who that town was and even then, wolves could all vote each other and do whatever they want. There is zero way to mathematically ensure a wolf yeet on D3 even with perfect reads. You’ve proposed a way. I vote Wilgy. Okay. And then any wolf voting a townie Jpic and they still yeet a townie.

Wolves controlled the yeet but they would look bad if they did under certain scenarios =/= town controlling the yeet.

Town did scumread the wolf left on the poll but 2/3rds of us weren’t allowed to vote.

And the point about the gladiator wasn’t “wolves controlled D4’s yeet.”

The point is that the apparent balancing mechanic to allowing wolves to entirely control D3’s yeet is that they might end up looking bad, which I’m pointing out is entirely irrelevant since wolves can remove most of their team from the poll.

A wolf gladiator is unbalanced for other reasons but we’ve already gone over player expectations and how that fits into game balance.

[tutuu]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

should let players vent but hosts cant vent, they are your retail workers that are supposed to just smile and nod along am i right

This seems uncalled for

You know I host frequently, I am no stranger to people complaining about a setup in post. Frustrating or not, sometimes people need to vent and that's OK, responding with emotion just leads to hurt feelings and frustration on both sides. I get it, you put a lot of work into this setup and its frustrating to see people complain about or criticize it. Realize that they aren't customers venting at retail workers, they're fellow community members expressing an opinion. You can ignore that opinion if you think its wrong, but firing back does little good.

If so let me vent instead of firing back at me, yeah? Am i not a fellow community member?

[tutuu]

Town plays 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and have to look bad but it doesn’t matter because they can take themselves off the poll.

wrong

if town played perfectly u would have voted for wilgy or jpic instead of essentially no-voting on d3. town (and ultimately u) had control there

3 wolves were taken off the poll on d3 but also a whole bunch of town. the ability was public. town could have scumread the person responsible for taking people off the poll and thunderdoming a marked target. town could have voted jpic. town could have convinced epi and hkatt to vote jpic. epi and hkatt could have listened to the other townies

wolves did not mechanically control the yeet

What are you talking about? Wolves controlled the yeet entirely D3 because it was not mechanically possible for the town to vote all town players unless they correctly identified and all agreed on who that town was and even then, wolves could all vote each other and do whatever they want. There is zero way to mathematically ensure a wolf yeet on D3 even with perfect reads. You’ve proposed a way. I vote Wilgy. Okay. And then any wolf voting a townie Jpic and they still yeet a townie.

Wolves controlled the yeet but they would look bad if they did under certain scenarios =/= town controlling the yeet.

Town did scumread the wolf left on the poll but 2/3rds of us weren’t allowed to vote.

And the point about the gladiator wasn’t “wolves controlled D4’s yeet.”

The point is that the apparent balancing mechanic to allowing wolves to entirely control D3’s yeet is that they might end up looking bad, which I’m pointing out is entirely irrelevant since wolves can remove most of their team from the poll.

A wolf gladiator is unbalanced for other reasons but we’ve already gone over player expectations and how that fits into game balance.

Wolves controlling the yeet but looking scummy in the circumstance of town being right =/= wolves controlling the yeet full stop though, thats obvious

In a normal game a town can wagon a scum, and scum can cfd to save their wolf, looking scummy in the process

I dont see the difference

I acknowledge it was too hard and frustrating, i reject the notion that it was impossible or that towm had no chance

You not being allowed to vote for ur correct scumread on d4 does not make the game broken, since i ensured town was in control of the chop on d4 mathematically if u will. The triple neighborhood ability forced the user to target two town.

[Epignosis]

Hello. Can everyone take a step back and maybe take the rest of the evening (morning, afternoon, wheresoever you may be) off?

I understand the desire to discuss balance and mechanics and all of that, and I understand both the frustrations stemming from this as a long-time host and as a long-time player, but in the end this was a game on the Internet and nobody was maimed or made poorer because of it (unless you were caught playing Mafia at work and got fired, in which case, I'm sorry, good luck on the job hunt).

Relationships > Games on the Internet

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

should let players vent but hosts cant vent, they are your retail workers that are supposed to just smile and nod along am i right

This seems uncalled for

You know I host frequently, I am no stranger to people complaining about a setup in post. Frustrating or not, sometimes people need to vent and that's OK, responding with emotion just leads to hurt feelings and frustration on both sides. I get it, you put a lot of work into this setup and its frustrating to see people complain about or criticize it. Realize that they aren't customers venting at retail workers, they're fellow community members expressing an opinion. You can ignore that opinion if you think its wrong, but firing back does little good.

If so let me vent instead of firing back at me, yeah? Am i not a fellow community member?

Im...not firing back at you?

Whatever I'm just trying to defuse, do what you want

[tutuu]

GM and players arguing in post isn't fun

Sometimes better to just let players vent and realize its not meant as a personal attack

should let players vent but hosts cant vent, they are your retail workers that are supposed to just smile and nod along am i right

This seems uncalled for

You know I host frequently, I am no stranger to people complaining about a setup in post. Frustrating or not, sometimes people need to vent and that's OK, responding with emotion just leads to hurt feelings and frustration on both sides. I get it, you put a lot of work into this setup and its frustrating to see people complain about or criticize it. Realize that they aren't customers venting at retail workers, they're fellow community members expressing an opinion. You can ignore that opinion if you think its wrong, but firing back does little good.

If so let me vent instead of firing back at me, yeah? Am i not a fellow community member?

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME

Im sorry but i want to finish my piece on this. This makes no sense to me. Why does the onus have to fall on the host to disengage and not to the player? Why does the host need to realize that its not personal and should just let it go, but the player shouldnt also be encouraged to let it go and realize that the game not going in their favor was not a personal attack on them made by the host to make them suffer? I felt singled out by you saying that only i should disengage and not jack as well, so thats what i said to u the thing i did

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Ok

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Designing Mafia games is hard. Hosting Mafia games is hard. I think it's clear that tutuu tried to achieve balance, and whether or not it worked out that way her efforts were considerable. The complexity of the setup, the dedication to the card images and text, and the timeliness of phase changes -- these are to be lauded.

I have no idea if the game was balanced. That's impossible to fairly assess with only one instantiation of play. Whatever. Frankly, the vast majority of Mafia setups that aim for half this degree of complexity are poorly balanced.

All a host can do is try. All the players can do is try. I think everyone tried.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Town plays 100% perfectly -> wolves control the yeet and have to look bad but it doesn’t matter because they can take themselves off the poll.

wrong

if town played perfectly u would have voted for wilgy or jpic instead of essentially no-voting on d3. town (and ultimately u) had control there

3 wolves were taken off the poll on d3 but also a whole bunch of town. the ability was public. town could have scumread the person responsible for taking people off the poll and thunderdoming a marked target. town could have voted jpic. town could have convinced epi and hkatt to vote jpic. epi and hkatt could have listened to the other townies

wolves did not mechanically control the yeet

What are you talking about? Wolves controlled the yeet entirely D3 because it was not mechanically possible for the town to vote all town players unless they correctly identified and all agreed on who that town was and even then, wolves could all vote each other and do whatever they want. There is zero way to mathematically ensure a wolf yeet on D3 even with perfect reads. You’ve proposed a way. I vote Wilgy. Okay. And then any wolf voting a townie Jpic and they still yeet a townie.

Wolves controlled the yeet but they would look bad if they did under certain scenarios =/= town controlling the yeet.

Town did scumread the wolf left on the poll but 2/3rds of us weren’t allowed to vote.

And the point about the gladiator wasn’t “wolves controlled D4’s yeet.”

The point is that the apparent balancing mechanic to allowing wolves to entirely control D3’s yeet is that they might end up looking bad, which I’m pointing out is entirely irrelevant since wolves can remove most of their team from the poll.

A wolf gladiator is unbalanced for other reasons but we’ve already gone over player expectations and how that fits into game balance.

Wolves controlling the yeet but looking scummy in the circumstance of town being right =/= wolves controlling the yeet full stop though, thats obvious

In a normal game a town can wagon a scum, and scum can cfd to save their wolf, looking scummy in the process

I dont see the difference

I acknowledge it was too hard and frustrating, i reject the notion that it was impossible or that towm had no chance

You not being allowed to vote for ur correct scumread on d4 does not make the game broken, since i ensured town was in control of the chop on d4 mathematically if u will. The triple neighborhood ability forced the user to target two town.

The difference is if every wolf jumps on a town wagon, town normally have the ability to mathematically counter this. Once they cease to have this power, the game is deemed to be over.

In this game, the town lost that ability halfway through the game.

That’s the difference.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Hello. Can everyone take a step back and maybe take the rest of the evening (morning, afternoon, wheresoever you may be) off?

I understand the desire to discuss balance and mechanics and all of that, and I understand both the frustrations stemming from this as a long-time host and as a long-time player, but in the end this was a game on the Internet and nobody was maimed or made poorer because of it (unless you were caught playing Mafia at work and got fired, in which case, I'm sorry, good luck on the job hunt).

Relationships > Games on the Internet

[tutuu]

the last two days were non-standard - yes

mafia had the option to out themselves/look very scummy by guaranteeing a chop on d3 - yes. but i have it written in the card "you may not use this ability during MyLo or LyLo"

town not having the potential for a 100% guaranteed lock on the chop like in a standard game - that doesnt seem broken to me? why is it broken?

if they out themselves, and on the next day they "remove themselves from the poll", the town could have scrutinized the person who removed said outed wolves from the poll. Jpic's duel was publicly announced, and it was announced that he was the one who activated the ability. did town really have no chance to win?

[tutuu]

i dont want to suggest having this thread locked out of "removing people's freedom of speech"

but i wont stop responding to stuff that are wrong. so if me and jack continuing to talk bothers you @ mods feel free to lock the thread. in any channels of communication that i have available though, i will not ignore incorrect statements and i will keep responding to them

[Epignosis]

What is the profit of this conversation?

You are welcome to have it, but is it the best use of your time?

My suggestion to all parties? Move on.

[tutuu]

i dont feel good having this conversation but i would feel worse if i were to ignore this

[Epignosis]

i dont feel good having this conversation but i would feel worse if i were to ignore this

I'm not asking anybody to ignore it.

I asked that people take the day off from it and if it was still that important, they could come back later to discuss it. That's all.

[Justplayingitcool]

[Justplayingitcool]

I agree that the reverse yeet could have been designed better, which tutuu even admitted was probably too much. Wolves could have crossvoted which I made pretty clear during the game.

I disagree massively that D4 was in the wolves hands. Two town votes vs 1 wolf vote means town was still in control, even if to a lesser extent than D1/2. Town had a 50/50 chance of flipping a mafia.