Monopoly Mafia [GAME OVER]

[fingersplints]

Splints i am not being shady. I expressed my opinion on LC finding his teammate and possibly getting the third and start bankrupting us. A monopoly this early is just as dangerous as a mafia member. I am suggesting he could be bluffing also and is mafia. Its a win win for me and i stand by my decision regardless what other disagree with me on it. Im Civ and alone, and it makes most sense to cast my vote on LC. Not changing my mind.

I don't agree with you. If we find the mafia before everyone finds their btsc partners, people won't turn into indy LMS groups. It's a MAJOR IF people even find their groups. Searching for btsc is hard, and a lot of the time people never find who they are looking for. Taking out the mafia is priority to me. Also, maybe you guys should start bidding a little more responsibly if you are so worried about going bankrupt.

You say a monopoly this early is as dangerous as a mafia. It is unlikely there are monopolies this early. Possible. But unlikely. It is 100 % certain there are mafia.

[thellama73]

That's crazy talk, Boogs. The mafia kill every night. A hotel is not going to bankrupt a player every night or even ever other night.

[Boogs]

Im not punishing anyone. Im stopping a threat to get me by NK or bankruptcy before he gets too powerful. People need to make big moves and start playing, which only like 10 of us are. You are a good liar. Another reason I didnt want to throw out but i will is when you played my Sailor Moon game you said in your baddie chat with teammates you dont like to kill your wife right away. It eliminates you as a Utility to me and you arent in my set, so you are Railroad or on a different set. Laying that out there.

[Boogs]

That's crazy talk, Boogs. The mafia kill every night. A hotel is not going to bankrupt a player every night or even ever other night.

Not YET, but say he finds the 3rd player then between them they can start buying the houses and stuff Day 5. Im basing this on regular monopoly where you get charged crazy prices. Maybe I am paranoid, maybe I am not, but i stand by my vote and decision. I dont care and wont flop my vote this time to the easy person to gain a card. Its a big move taking him out now before they get double chances to search.

[S~V~S]

Boogs is acting strange, but I'm not sure he's bad.

Why would we rather lynch a hypothetical Indy than look for baddies? You know, the guys with the kills?

Interesting question, S~V~S.

1) I've already said there's a possibility LC and Llama are railroads. Care to address how you know that to not be true?
2) What baddie hunting have you done?

I just replaced back il for Sabie yesterday; I was killed night one. So not very much. If you suspect me, you haven't either.

And I don't "know it". But that seems to be the implication, doesn't it? I don't think Llama is bad. Not sure re LC, but I sm not seeing bad Llama.

[Tangrowth]

Boogs, seriously. Do you not understand the point I've made? Why do you keep saying if LC finds a third member? Why are you ignoring my theory that he has? You're making assumptions of your own and not even considering anyone else's.

juliets and S~V~S are very firmly on my radar.

And why am I on your radar?

Have I not already said why on this very page?

What do players think of juliets?

I think juliets is bad.

I've decided I'm not going to make cases this game. I'm just going to say things and see what happens.

I agree; juliets is looking bad to me too. She seems unwilling to consider all perspectives like she does when civvie.

If I were to vote anyone other than you or LC today, it'd be her.

You have said NOTHING about my LC and Llama theory. Absolutely nothing. Not even a "I'll consider it".

You also have a "gut" feeling about MM, but you don't really seem genuinely interested in baddie hunting.

Additionally, when you are a civvie, you always go overboard in addressing accusations made against you. I mentioned your name twice before this post, and Llama did as well, and you said nothing.

First, I have not seen my name mentioned before this post but I will go back and look to see what you and llama said.

Secondly, who says I'm not willing to consider all perspectives?? I have been thinking about the LC accusation since it was made and my opinion right at this moment is I'd rather go after a baddie than a one-day-might-be an indy. Just because I don't vocalize does not mean I am not considering what is being said.

Thirdly, what is your evidence that I don't seem genuinely interested in baddie hunting? Did you some how read my mind? What are you seeing I said that leads you to say I am not "genuinely interested". As you know, and don't even try to claim that you don't know it because it was already discussed earlier in this thread, I ask a lot of questions throughout the game to process information. I don't do a lot of case building but when I do it's after we're into the game and I feel like I have good evidence on someone. I'm never the one out there throwing out lots of theories and generally causing confusion. You know my game well, we have played plenty of times together. Which makes me really wonder what you are up to here.

First, fair enough.

Second, that's my interpretation. Usually you even post that you're considering something or that something is interesting if you believe so, but you ignored my case completely even when I asked for other opinions. Again, what memo am I missing? Why do you think LC and Llama are more likely LMS than railroads?

Third, I don't like your response here. Again, it's my interpretation of your actions. I'm not criticizing your playstyle. I know how it works. In fact, I don't think you've been asking enough questions more so than the opposite, so... that's not my argument. Per your last sentence where you "wonder" what I'm up to: What does that even mean? Do you suspect me or not?

I don't understand how people are misrepresenting my case. In it, LC and Llama can either be railroads or LMSers. No one has refuted either of those interpretations. Either Boogs doesn't understand my theory or he is still suspecting LC based on his own theory, which is fine, but I just want this to be made clear.

My theory is thus:

1) Llama's switch of opinion on LC, as incredibly radical as it is, occurred because they gained BTSC Night 1.
2) LC's pursuit of and subsequent use of the autofind means that they both have BTSC with a third person, after Night 2 -- meaning, either if they are railroads or properties, they have either established their railroad team of three or a monopoly, both of which are civvie threats.

I don't take Llama's defense of "give me more credit!" as having any merit because:
1) It is WIFOM.
2) I believe if Llama really felt LC's change in behavior warranted THAT strong of an opinion alteration, he would have elaborated upon it originally, instead of just saying "I can read LC, and he looks good to me now!" He even says "his behavior since" or something to that effect, meaning he didn't even think that his behavior D1 and before warranted reevaluation on its own merit. It's very sloppy, IMO, but I could see Llama doing this if he thought he could get away with his WIFOM defense and/or hoping no one noticed it and pursued his lynch because of it.

Nope. Suspect Llama all you like, I'm not connected to him in any way, he's just trying to mess with me or something with this trust crap.

I'm on my phone and it's hard to search, what is it that makes me any more likely to be a railroad than you?

Than me? Well, I know I'm not a railroad, but I understand what you're getting at. I only strongly believe my theory to be true, and I believe you utilized the Autofind for the reason I extrapolated. It would make sense if you were a railroad or a newly-turned LMS civvie, or even a civvie, but I just don't believe the third possibility is true.

Again, my interpretation. And I really think I'm onto something.

I'm not sure how I feel about this MM push. There are other players one could say are as equally contributing as MM.

Splints, can you tell me how you feel about keys at the moment, and vice versa?

What do players think of juliets?

I'm keeping my vote where it is.

I think keys is likely a civvie. His unified civvie theory and his comment about FZ make me believe so. I really cannot see any benefit for him to bring up such a plan if he was a baddie. He always posts very carefully, and almost over thinks his posts. I read that comment as sarcastic and one I think he would not likely make if he were bad.

I am also feeling alright about juliets so far this game. I feel like her name was thrown around in the beginning by players who don't understand how she plays, and I haven't seen anything indicative of a baddie juliets. She is a tricky one, but her responses have read genuine and helpful to me.

I'm not understanding the case on LC. Boogs pushing it seems incredibly sketchy. His motivation and suspicion seems unclear. I haven't had much time to read your posts about it tbh. I've had little time outside of work though, and what I had was focused on the Zelda game. Since I am no longer in that hopefully I can get my head fully into this one and look at that some.

Splints, I appreciate your response. I've had a hard time reading keys.

I'm wary of a Boogs lynchtrain because I'm not sure a baddie Boogs would be that obviously pushing a case that isn't sticking. I think he may genuinely believe what he's saying.

Nonetheless, he is apparently going after LC for a totally different reason than I am. He appears to want him gone because he won the Autofind. My suspicion is due to a very specific chain of events that links Llama and LC's behavior.

[Tangrowth]

Boogs is acting strange, but I'm not sure he's bad.

Why would we rather lynch a hypothetical Indy than look for baddies? You know, the guys with the kills?

Interesting question, S~V~S.

1) I've already said there's a possibility LC and Llama are railroads. Care to address how you know that to not be true?
2) What baddie hunting have you done?

I just replaced back il for Sabie yesterday; I was killed night one. So not very much. If you suspect me, you haven't either.

And I don't "know it". But that seems to be the implication, doesn't it? I don't think Llama is bad. Not sure re LC, but I sm not seeing bad Llama.

Okay, sure, but why would you ask such a question if you're doing no looking of your own? You haven't stated a single suspect. Also, your deflection of "if you suspect me, you haven't either" is ridiculous. I'm obviously making attempts to baddie hunt. I was gone until D2 or so myself, so you have no excuse. My case on FZ. My case on Llama and LC. My thoughts on you and JC. My attempts to start discussion. So how dare you try to imply that because I suspect you I'm not baddie hunting?

If you don't know it, why did you ask that question? You asked it as if you either know or strongly believe LC and Llama to be LMS and not railroads.

[Tangrowth]

FWIW, S~V~S, I don't mean any offense or to come across as offended in that post, but your reply certainly didn't make me feel any better about you.

Don't think I'll vote you today, but your lack of contributions as well as the way you deflected onto me that post appear to be a very different "relaxed" game than the civvie S~V~S I just saw in DW.

[thellama73]

SVS is one smart cookie. I'm glad I searched her for my teammate first, even though it t=didn't work out. Maybe I will search her again tonight if I don't get lynched

[birdwithteeth11]

Splints i am not being shady. I expressed my opinion on LC finding his teammate and possibly getting the third and start bankrupting us. A monopoly this early is just as dangerous as a mafia member. I am suggesting he could be bluffing also and is mafia. Its a win win for me and i stand by my decision regardless what other disagree with me on it. Im Civ and alone, and it makes most sense to cast my vote on LC. Not changing my mind.

So wait....you want LC dead regardless of what his role is? Even if he's not a baddie or LMS right now?

This kind of talk is starting to sound dangerous to me. Very dangerous.

Switches vote to Boogs

[Epignosis]

*straightens tie*

*combs hair*

[Boogs]

Splints i am not being shady. I expressed my opinion on LC finding his teammate and possibly getting the third and start bankrupting us. A monopoly this early is just as dangerous as a mafia member. I am suggesting he could be bluffing also and is mafia. Its a win win for me and i stand by my decision regardless what other disagree with me on it. Im Civ and alone, and it makes most sense to cast my vote on LC. Not changing my mind.

So wait....you want LC dead regardless of what his role is? Even if he's not a baddie or LMS right now?

This kind of talk is starting to sound dangerous to me. Very dangerous.

Switches vote to Boogs

Misinterpreted what i said. His alignment as in if one of these is true:
He has a complete set or close to it and had a monopoly
Or
Is a Railroad or Utility (I dont think he's a Utility).

Vote me bwt, I'm good and dont care. If you think my motives or I am dangerous, you got 99 problems and Lc will be one not me.

[keys56000000000]

I'm not understanding the case on LC. Boogs pushing it seems incredibly sketchy. His motivation and suspicion seems unclear. I haven't had much time to read your posts about it tbh. I've had little time outside of work though, and what I had was focused on the Zelda game. Since I am no longer in that hopefully I can get my head fully into this one and look at that some.

I'm also thinking that those supporting it could have shady motives. I mean, they're actively pushing a plan that specifically advocates going after prize winners and Civvies who have found BTSC partners over looking for baddies.

I feel like I keep repeating myself here. LC knows that I'm not specifically advocating that, but he keeps repeating it. Long Con, you can read, right? Words, I mean. Written in English. Right? Je peux passer au français si cela aide? Of course you can read. Because I know you know I don't mean to kill civs. That I mean to kill mafia. My whole lame plan revolved around that crux. But you keep denying it. I don't expect you to be so unreasonable - the only explanation is that you are a mafioso.

linki: Just so it's clear, I'm not with Boogs on the pre-emptive lynching of players looking to complete their sets. I don't know how many times I need to say that. I should probably just put it in bold at the bottom of every post.

[birdwithteeth11]

I'm wary of a Boogs lynchtrain because I'm not sure a baddie Boogs would be that obviously pushing a case that isn't sticking. I think he may genuinely believe what he's saying.

Nonetheless, he is apparently going after LC for a totally different reason than I am. He appears to want him gone because he won the Autofind. My suspicion is due to a very specific chain of events that links Llama and LC's behavior.

I could see that being the case, but I think there is real danger in Boogs pushing the ideas that he's pushing. If we go down the path he's suggesting, then we're just lynching people for deciding to play the game a certain way.

I will most likely switch my vote away from Boogs (I'm wary of him being an easy lynch target as well), but I would like him to read some of the other cases out there. Because right now, I think he has massive tunnel vision.

Linki:

Linki2: I've tried really hard to understand your theory. But I feel like it's making way too many assumptions, with no concrete information.

If you don't change your opinion, that's fine. But I'm asking you to consider a different perspective on the matter. If I start bidding for and winning multiple properties, does that mean you'll call up arms to get me lynched?

Linki3: Do it, keys. I'd find it lolzy.

[Long Con]

I don't understand how people are misrepresenting my case. In it, LC and Llama can either be railroads or LMSers. No one has refuted either of those interpretations. Either Boogs doesn't understand my theory or he is still suspecting LC based on his own theory, which is fine, but I just want this to be made clear.

My theory is thus:

1) Llama's switch of opinion on LC, as incredibly radical as it is, occurred because they gained BTSC Night 1.
2) LC's pursuit of and subsequent use of the autofind means that they both have BTSC with a third person, after Night 2 -- meaning, either if they are railroads or properties, they have either established their railroad team of three or a monopoly, both of which are civvie threats.

I don't take Llama's defense of "give me more credit!" as having any merit because:
1) It is WIFOM.
2) I believe if Llama really felt LC's change in behavior warranted THAT strong of an opinion alteration, he would have elaborated upon it originally, instead of just saying "I can read LC, and he looks good to me now!" He even says "his behavior since" or something to that effect, meaning he didn't even think that his behavior D1 and before warranted reevaluation on its own merit. It's very sloppy, IMO, but I could see Llama doing this if he thought he could get away with his WIFOM defense and/or hoping no one noticed it and pursued his lynch because of it.

Nope. Suspect Llama all you like, I'm not connected to him in any way, he's just trying to mess with me or something with this trust crap.

I'm on my phone and it's hard to search, what is it that makes me any more likely to be a railroad than you?

Than me? Well, I know I'm not a railroad, but I understand what you're getting at. I only strongly believe my theory to be true, and I believe you utilized the Autofind for the reason I extrapolated. It would make sense if you were a railroad or a newly-turned LMS civvie, or even a civvie, but I just don't believe the third possibility is true.

Again, my interpretation. And I really think I'm onto something.

I find it hard to believe you even believe that Llama would even do that, it's like noobier than what a noob would do. He gets BTSC with me, and just plows into the thread and does a 180 for really no reason? Are we talking about the same Llama here? It's like you are pretending you've never played a game with him before.

Llama's agenda here is his own, and the fact that you're pushing so hard on this weak theory while riding on the coattails of Boogs' questionable outlook makes me wonder what your real motives are.

[juliets]

First, fair enough.

Second, that's my interpretation. Usually you even post that you're considering something or that something is interesting if you believe so, but you ignored my case completely even when I asked for other opinions. Again, what memo am I missing? Why do you think LC and Llama are more likely LMS than railroads?

Third, I don't like your response here. Again, it's my interpretation of your actions. I'm not criticizing your playstyle. I know how it works. In fact, I don't think you've been asking enough questions more so than the opposite, so... that's not my argument. Per your last sentence where you "wonder" what I'm up to: What does that even mean? Do you suspect me or not?

MP, I do not comment on every case thats put out there. I'm always thinking about things that come up in the thread. Tbh, the only case I've been looking at is the one where LC is a potential almost an indy. I will re-consider your railroad theory, though on first read it sounded like a real stretch. Maybe I didn't give it enough attention but this is NOT the way to get me to look back at things. Just ask me to take another look. Don't make assumptions about my behavior that are false to get me to react.

[Epignosis]

Linki:

I ain't laughin.

[thellama73]

Llama's agenda here is his own

[Long Con]

I'm not understanding the case on LC. Boogs pushing it seems incredibly sketchy. His motivation and suspicion seems unclear. I haven't had much time to read your posts about it tbh. I've had little time outside of work though, and what I had was focused on the Zelda game. Since I am no longer in that hopefully I can get my head fully into this one and look at that some.

I'm also thinking that those supporting it could have shady motives. I mean, they're actively pushing a plan that specifically advocates going after prize winners and Civvies who have found BTSC partners over looking for baddies.

I feel like I keep repeating myself here. LC knows that I'm not specifically advocating that, but he keeps repeating it. Long Con, you can read, right? Words, I mean. Written in English. Right? Je peux passer au français si cela aide? Of course you can read. Because I know you know I don't mean to kill civs. That I mean to kill mafia. My whole lame plan revolved around that crux. But you keep denying it. I don't expect you to be so unreasonable - the only explanation is that you are a mafioso.

Ok, I think I must have skimmed a post. I assumed you voted for me for the same reason Boogs was. You think I'm Mafia? I'll review your posts and respond more directly then, sorry to vex you so.

[Long Con]

Linki:

I ain't laughin.

Did you use your Chance card and get free?

[S~V~S]

Boogs is acting strange, but I'm not sure he's bad.

Why would we rather lynch a hypothetical Indy than look for baddies? You know, the guys with the kills?

Interesting question, S~V~S.

1) I've already said there's a possibility LC and Llama are railroads. Care to address how you know that to not be true?
2) What baddie hunting have you done?

I just replaced back il for Sabie yesterday; I was killed night one. So not very much. If you suspect me, you haven't either.

And I don't "know it". But that seems to be the implication, doesn't it? I don't think Llama is bad. Not sure re LC, but I sm not seeing bad Llama.

Okay, sure, but why would you ask such a question if you're doing no looking of your own? You haven't stated a single suspect. Also, your deflection of "if you suspect me, you haven't either" is ridiculous. I'm obviously making attempts to baddie hunt. I was gone until D2 or so myself, so you have no excuse. My case on FZ. My case on Llama and LC. My thoughts on you and JC. My attempts to start discussion. So how dare you try to imply that because I suspect you I'm not baddie hunting?

If you don't know it, why did you ask that question? You asked it as if you either know or strongly believe LC and Llama to be LMS and not railroads.

I asked it becasue that was what Boogs has been talking about, how the Indy teams are just as bad as the actual baddies, if not worse. And he is not the only one.

I am not you, so saying "Look at all the baddie hunting I have done" yada yada yada does not mean anyone who does less than you is bad. And I don't need an excuse, nor did I make one. You asked a question, I answered it.

And don't say stuff like "how dare you", there is no need for adversarial language like that. Please don't talk to me that way.

[Tangrowth]

I don't understand how people are misrepresenting my case. In it, LC and Llama can either be railroads or LMSers. No one has refuted either of those interpretations. Either Boogs doesn't understand my theory or he is still suspecting LC based on his own theory, which is fine, but I just want this to be made clear.

My theory is thus:

1) Llama's switch of opinion on LC, as incredibly radical as it is, occurred because they gained BTSC Night 1.
2) LC's pursuit of and subsequent use of the autofind means that they both have BTSC with a third person, after Night 2 -- meaning, either if they are railroads or properties, they have either established their railroad team of three or a monopoly, both of which are civvie threats.

I don't take Llama's defense of "give me more credit!" as having any merit because:
1) It is WIFOM.
2) I believe if Llama really felt LC's change in behavior warranted THAT strong of an opinion alteration, he would have elaborated upon it originally, instead of just saying "I can read LC, and he looks good to me now!" He even says "his behavior since" or something to that effect, meaning he didn't even think that his behavior D1 and before warranted reevaluation on its own merit. It's very sloppy, IMO, but I could see Llama doing this if he thought he could get away with his WIFOM defense and/or hoping no one noticed it and pursued his lynch because of it.

Nope. Suspect Llama all you like, I'm not connected to him in any way, he's just trying to mess with me or something with this trust crap.

I'm on my phone and it's hard to search, what is it that makes me any more likely to be a railroad than you?

Than me? Well, I know I'm not a railroad, but I understand what you're getting at. I only strongly believe my theory to be true, and I believe you utilized the Autofind for the reason I extrapolated. It would make sense if you were a railroad or a newly-turned LMS civvie, or even a civvie, but I just don't believe the third possibility is true.

Again, my interpretation. And I really think I'm onto something.

I find it hard to believe you even believe that Llama would even do that, it's like noobier than what a noob would do. He gets BTSC with me, and just plows into the thread and does a 180 for really no reason? Are we talking about the same Llama here? It's like you are pretending you've never played a game with him before.

Llama's agenda here is his own, and the fact that you're pushing so hard on this weak theory while riding on the coattails of Boogs' questionable outlook makes me wonder what your real motives are.

Why wouldn't he? WIFOM. It's so unbelievably ridiculous, why would he ever do it? Can you instead give me a totally different reason for him doing that, LC? And I'm not pretending that, it's because I know Llama incredibly well that I believe he would be willing to do something like this.

I'm not riding on Boogs's anything, I've openly criticized him.

Keys also pointed out that you're harping on points that aren't true.

LOL, now you question what my motives are? NO U much?

First, fair enough.

Second, that's my interpretation. Usually you even post that you're considering something or that something is interesting if you believe so, but you ignored my case completely even when I asked for other opinions. Again, what memo am I missing? Why do you think LC and Llama are more likely LMS than railroads?

Third, I don't like your response here. Again, it's my interpretation of your actions. I'm not criticizing your playstyle. I know how it works. In fact, I don't think you've been asking enough questions more so than the opposite, so... that's not my argument. Per your last sentence where you "wonder" what I'm up to: What does that even mean? Do you suspect me or not?

MP, I do not comment on every case thats put out there. I'm always thinking about things that come up in the thread. Tbh, the only case I've been looking at is the one where LC is a potential almost an indy. I will re-consider your railroad theory, though on first read it sounded like a real stretch. Maybe I didn't give it enough attention but this is NOT the way to get me to look back at things. Just ask me to take another look. Don't make assumptions about my behavior that are false to get me to react.

I asked people for opinions. You said nothing. This is the only time I've believed you to not be baddie hunting. You've not seemed engaged as usual when you're civvie and the only thing you've even presented is your "gut" on MM which is really based on nothing other than him not contributing, which could be argued of many others, including yourself.

You misunderstand. Sigh. People obviously don't get my theory. At all. So I'm re-posting it. It's NOT a railroad theory.

[Tangrowth]

So I found something very interesting.

This is Day 1 Llama:

I am voting for Long Con, being an early proponent of the tactic that I think will hurt the town, and I don't believe him.

Black Rock, speaking of hunting down baddies, do you have any suspicions at this point?

A general remark. I don't believe him about anything. I don't believe that Long Con would like a civvie victory.

Contrast this with Day 2 Llama:

Guys come on. Long Con isn't a baddie. I think if anyone can read him, I can. I know I voted for him yesterday, but his gameplay since then has not been baddie like in the slightest.

Llama's trust surprises me.

I am a very surprising man. It's what makes me so dangerous.

I think I will place my vote on Lorab for now, for asserting that we can't disagree without implying the other person is stupid.

And he continues defending LC hard into Day 3:

What do you make of this, Llama?

LC is civilian. I'd stake my reputation on it.

Quite the turnaround, no?

Consider how badly LC wanted that AutoFind last cycle. There could be genuine civvie reasons for it. However, consider the following likely scenario based on the quotes above:

I strongly believe that Llama and LC gained BTSC Night 1. This explains Llama's incredible 180 on LC (I can't see any other reason Llama would do this, as his language was strongly against LC and now strongly for him, and he cites no in-thread reason for the turnaround) as well as why LC wanted that AutoFind to utilize during Night 2.

Assuming Llama and LC are BTSC-mates, which is a more than fair assumption, this means they are now either an LMS property group of three, along with someone else due to the AutoFind, or railroads with three-way BTSC. Consider that Llama was a huge proponent of searching for his teammates and LC's thoughts on the matter as well. Either way: They're bad news now after Night 2.

I think Boogs's thoughts on LC are either mere paranoid speculation not strong enough for lynching or contrived thoughts to build a case against someone to appear civvie, as I've said. However, when you consider the facts together (1: Llama did a complete 180 on LC from one cycle to the next; and 2: LC particularly wanted the Autofind, and presumably used it N2) seem to indicate to me that, despite it being an unlikely possibility, LC and Llama have formed an impressive but inevitably non-civvie team already.

I will therefore be voting either LC or Llama today, unless someone can indicate something incorrect with this analysis. I realize there are other interpretations, but I believe it seems incredibly likely that either of the above two scenarios (LMS or railroad) is true, making LC and Llama primary threats to the civvie cause.

I also realize that there are other possible baddie candidates we should be discussing, especially if LC and Llama are now LMS instead of railroads, but the strength with which this analysis indicates that are bad news regardless means they need to go, and they need to go now IMO. If they are LMS, the fact that they have likely formed a monopoly means they can start building houses and hotels. If they are railroads, well, they control a kill and some serious cash.

I'm sad because I really was reading them both as civvie and wasn't considering them until I saw this (and echo TH's sentiment about LC being a good civvie to have around), but much more so glad because I really think I've found a threat.

juliets, this was my original post on the matter.

[Epignosis]

Linki:

I ain't laughin.

Did you use your Chance card and get free?

Chance, bitchez.

Jail is boring as hell.

[S~V~S]

If you are going to eyeball me, do it in context. that quote you took of mine:

Boogs is acting strange, but I'm not sure he's bad.

Why would we rather lynch a hypothetical Indy than look for baddies? You know, the guys with the kills?

Interesting question, S~V~S.

1) I've already said there's a possibility LC and Llama are railroads. Care to address how you know that to not be true?
2) What baddie hunting have you done?

THIS was the post right before it. I was joining this conversation, and had noting to do with your awesome case, or with any knowledge of any specific roles..

I'm not sure how I feel about this MM push. There are other players one could say are as equally contributing as MM.

Splints, can you tell me how you feel about keys at the moment, and vice versa?

What do players think of juliets?

I'm keeping my vote where it is.

I agree MP. I don't like the sudden change to MM but I also don't like so many people being quiet also. I think LC is the way to go and if he flips Civ, we have more Cred now to trust Llama. FZ was like a random train and I can see MM being that way too for us wasting a Civ getting lynched.

Ummmmm...what?

If we lynch LC and he flips civ, that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't llama's teammate.

I mean, sure, a railroad would be fine with winning that bet. But your train of logic doesn't suggest either way whether or not llama and LC are teammates. First you think we should be lynching people who have bought powers and properties, and now this. Is your logic meter broken this game? Because I really don't understand where you're coming from at all.

[Long Con]

Keys, I just looked through your posts, and I don't see anything that says you're doing anything but lynching me for using the Autofind prize. I don't see anything that makes it seem like you believe me to be Mafia. Can you help me out here?

[Tangrowth]

Boogs is acting strange, but I'm not sure he's bad.

Why would we rather lynch a hypothetical Indy than look for baddies? You know, the guys with the kills?

Interesting question, S~V~S.

1) I've already said there's a possibility LC and Llama are railroads. Care to address how you know that to not be true?
2) What baddie hunting have you done?

I just replaced back il for Sabie yesterday; I was killed night one. So not very much. If you suspect me, you haven't either.

And I don't "know it". But that seems to be the implication, doesn't it? I don't think Llama is bad. Not sure re LC, but I sm not seeing bad Llama.

Okay, sure, but why would you ask such a question if you're doing no looking of your own? You haven't stated a single suspect. Also, your deflection of "if you suspect me, you haven't either" is ridiculous. I'm obviously making attempts to baddie hunt. I was gone until D2 or so myself, so you have no excuse. My case on FZ. My case on Llama and LC. My thoughts on you and JC. My attempts to start discussion. So how dare you try to imply that because I suspect you I'm not baddie hunting?

If you don't know it, why did you ask that question? You asked it as if you either know or strongly believe LC and Llama to be LMS and not railroads.

I asked it becasue that was what Boogs has been talking about, how the Indy teams are just as bad as the actual baddies, if not worse. And he is not the only one.

I am not you, so saying "Look at all the baddie hunting I have done" yada yada yada does not mean anyone who does less than you is bad. And I don't need an excuse, nor did I make one. You asked a question, I answered it.

And don't say stuff like "how dare you", there is no need for adversarial language like that. Please don't talk to me that way.

How is he not the only one? Show me someone else who said that. I haven't been saying it. But thanks, I understand now.

I just told you I meant no offense, sorry. But my point stands: I don't understand why you'd accuse me of not baddie hunting because I suspect you. That's CLEARLY what you said. So don't try to tell me not to say stuff like that because such an accusation is the ONLY reason I even said look at the fact that I've tried to baddie hunt. I didn't say all of that before you instigated me and implied I wasn't hunting because I suspect you.

A civvie S~V~S would never make that implication and respond the way you've been responding, continuing to not contribute.

You are definitely bad.

[S~V~S]

What the fuck are you talking about? How am I responding? This is exactly what a civvie SVS would do. Shes doing it.

I did not mean to say you were not baddie hunting, how I meant it to sound was that if you think I am bad, you are not successfully baddie hunting. And I don't care if you said you are sorry, you sound incredibly aggressive and hostile, tbh.

Just calm down.

[Tangrowth]

What the fuck are you talking about? How am I responding? This is exactly what a civvie SVS would do. Shes doing it.

I did not mean to say you were not baddie hunting, how I meant it to sound was that if you think I am bad, you are not successfully baddie hunting. And I don't care if you said you are sorry, you sound incredibly aggressive and hostile, tbh.

Just calm down.

Fair enough. I am not being hostile, I am only trying to find baddies. I do apologize if I offended you or seemed unnecessarily hostile. I don't intend to do so. But I was really bothered by the fact that you would ask such a question (which I didn't realize was targeted at Boogs) followed by an implication that I'm not baddie hunting.

I'm more than willing to take a step back from the situation and reevaluate. But your responses have just sounded not genuine to me. I just realized I couldn't even vote you today if I wanted to, anyway.

[Long Con]

Why wouldn't he? WIFOM. It's so unbelievably ridiculous, why would he ever do it? Can you instead give me a totally different reason for him doing that, LC? And I'm not pretending that, it's because I know Llama incredibly well that I believe he would be willing to do something like this.

I'm not riding on Boogs's anything, I've openly criticized him.

Keys also pointed out that you're harping on points that aren't true.

Keys' issue has nothing to do with anything you're talking about, but I guess you'll grasp at any straw in a storm. (Now S~V~S is a baddie too? Busy boy. )

Your "planned WIFOM" concept is empty, Llama would gain no benefit from it as my teammate. It undeniably creates a seeming connection between us, no matter how things go moving forward. There's no angle that Llama could take to deny it, were I to someday turn up baddie. Whatever he's doing, it's not what you''re saying, because doing what you're saying makes no sense for any reason.

You usually make a lot more sense in your arguments, this one only takes a little bit of analysis to show that it's just not likely. Are you usually the "dog with a bone" type of player, or do you change your suspicions when different ideas are presented, or your own ideas are proven not-so-realistic? I thought you were the second type, but your gameplay here has me puzzled about you.

[thellama73]

it's because I know Llama incredibly well that I believe he would be willing to do something like this.

You flatter yourself, sir. May I remind you, you only got 20% on my quizfest?

MP is acting screwy this game. I'm starting to think he might be a wicked lester.

[Tangrowth]

Why wouldn't he? WIFOM. It's so unbelievably ridiculous, why would he ever do it? Can you instead give me a totally different reason for him doing that, LC? And I'm not pretending that, it's because I know Llama incredibly well that I believe he would be willing to do something like this.

I'm not riding on Boogs's anything, I've openly criticized him.

Keys also pointed out that you're harping on points that aren't true.

Keys' issue has nothing to do with anything you're talking about, but I guess you'll grasp at any straw in a storm. (Now S~V~S is a baddie too? Busy boy. )

Your "planned WIFOM" concept is empty, Llama would gain no benefit from it as my teammate. It undeniably creates a seeming connection between us, no matter how things go moving forward. There's no angle that Llama could take to deny it, were I to someday turn up baddie. Whatever he's doing, it's not what you''re saying, because doing what you're saying makes no sense for any reason.

You usually make a lot more sense in your arguments, this one only takes a little bit of analysis to show that it's just not likely. Are you usually the "dog with a bone" type of player, or do you change your suspicions when different ideas are presented, or your own ideas are proven not-so-realistic? I thought you were the second type, but your gameplay here has me puzzled about you.

No, you're right; it doesn't, but it provides additional evidence in my mind that you're trying anything you can to get out of this situation.

How he would not gain any benefit? If attention was really high on you, no one would ever believe Llama would do a 180 and defend a teammate so heavily because he has a reputation for doing the opposite. He could certainly take an angle to deny it; it's what he's doing right now. How does it make little sense though? If you both found each other and wanted to become a monopoly or gain BTSC with your last railroad, wouldn't it be the right thing to do? Why would Llama continue to suspect you heavily and get you lynched, especially this early?

I feel I'm making plenty of sense. And I'm not sure how to answer your question, I think I can be either depending on the circumstances.

[Tangrowth]

it's because I know Llama incredibly well that I believe he would be willing to do something like this.

You flatter yourself, sir. May I remind you, you only got 20% on my quizfest?

MP is acting screwy this game. I'm starting to think he might be a wicked lester.

What are you talking about?

How am I acting bad? Tell me.

You're the one making no sense. You agree that juliets looks bad, but you don't expound on it. Then you vote Boogs.

[S~V~S]

What the fuck are you talking about? How am I responding? This is exactly what a civvie SVS would do. Shes doing it.

I did not mean to say you were not baddie hunting, how I meant it to sound was that if you think I am bad, you are not successfully baddie hunting. And I don't care if you said you are sorry, you sound incredibly aggressive and hostile, tbh.

Just calm down.

Fair enough. I am not being hostile, I am only trying to find baddies. I do apologize if I offended you or seemed unnecessarily hostile. I don't intend to do so. But I was really bothered by the fact that you would ask such a question (which I didn't realize was targeted at Boogs) followed by an implication that I'm not baddie hunting.

I'm more than willing to take a step back from the situation and reevaluate. But your responses have just sounded not genuine to me. I just realized I couldn't even vote you today if I wanted to, anyway.

Not genuine in what way, MP? Most of them were from phone, I had a lot of stuff to do after work and just got home maybe 30 minutes ago. But I never said you were not baddie hunting, I was kinda trying to make a joke with you about you doing a bad job of it if you suspect me, but I guess that fell flat.

My intention tonight was to reread Zeek becasue of his reaction to me being alive again, and then his next post where he said, after I asked him if he was disappointed to have me back, basically, "No of course not. Now lets talk about this other thing." I had planned to reread him, but the thread had exploded with all this LC/Llama business.

At this point, the main case seems to be that they appear to have BTSC, right? I did not read all of those long ass posts, can you give me the tl;dr summary?

[Boogs]

Mp I feel like a total dumb cat. I re-ead and realized that Railroads Do NOT start with BTSC like mafia usually do, only the utilities do. So it makes total sense now Llama and LC are railroads and they found the third with the auto search. I was under the impression of normal rules that Baddies start with BtSC. I am on it now buddy and same page. Let's get them.

[Tangrowth]

I'm leaving the thread, I need to get some sleep and it's probably evident through my posts that I'm getting frustrated. Sorry to S~V~S and juliets if my posts seemed edgy.

Linki w/ S~V~S: I promise I'll give you the BOTD. I'm sorry I didn't realize it was a joke. The TL;DR summary of Llama and LC is that Llama went after LC really hard all throughout D1. Then during D2 and onward he switched completely, defending LC really hard, but didn't give much of a reason. LC also made sure to get the Autofind, which would have been used N2. I speculated the Llama's turnaround on LC means they gained BTSC and that LC's use of the Autofind, under this assumption, means that they must have BTSC of three now, making them LMS if they are even civvie roles, or railroads otherwise.

Linki w/ Boogs: Don't worry about it.

Now,

[Dom]

[Boogs]

This changes my whole perception of the situation that LC could have been a color set, and that in fact he could have auto searched a Railroad if Llama was already found. I agree his behavior was iffy on Day 0 and I agree with MP on the total turnabout on Llama. He did a fake back and forth with Bullzeye in Monty where i didn't bite on it too much and they played me at the end when they were distancing teammates. I would NOT put past LC to do it here again with Llama. Not to mention Llama and him having fake arguments today on "don't ruin my game" and stuff to now them not after each other again and focusing lights on me and MM to get out of the radar.

[Long Con]

Mp I feel like a total dumb cat. I re-ead and realized that Railroads Do NOT start with BTSC like mafia usually do, only the utilities do. So it makes total sense now Llama and LC are railroads and they found the third with the auto search. I was under the impression of normal rules that Baddies start with BtSC. I am on it now buddy and same page. Let's get them.

It makes no more sense than it ever has that Llama and I are Railroads. There's nothing anywhere that points to that as any more likely than a Civvie explanation. You are clearly severely blinded by your own misguided sense of glory. I'm not a Railroad, I am only a guy who decided to bid strong for a good prize, and there's nothing but your Quixotic stubbornness that has even pointed that way. Don't take a situation in a previous game and shove it crudely into this one, this is not that game.

[S~V~S]

This changes my whole perception of the situation that LC could have been a color set, and that in fact he could have auto searched a Railroad if Llama was already found. I agree his behavior was iffy on Day 0 and I agree with MP on the total turnabout on Llama. He did a fake back and forth with Bullzeye in Monty where i didn't bite on it too much and they played me at the end when they were distancing teammates. I would NOT put past LC to do it here again with Llama. Not to mention Llama and him having fake arguments today on "don't ruin my game" and stuff to now them not after each other again and focusing lights on me and MM to get out of the radar.

So you want to lynch them whether they are baddies or LMS? LMS without a kill is better than a civvie, but i would still rather find a baddie. And even if we are to accept that they have BTS now, how do you know it is baddie BTS, not civvie BTS?

Did either LC or Llama land on a utility?

[juliets]

MP, thank you for reprinting your case. I will think about it. My gut reaction is that the whole thing hangs on your interpretation of llama changing his tune on LC. I would like to know what llama has to say about this change and if he's already responded I missed it. But llama, this is for you: what made you change your mind about LC overnight? I think the whole theory lies in the answer to this question because it's what led you to believe LC and llama had bts. Now I'm not saying it's impossible that they got bts I just think there could be other reasons. So, I'll let your theory settle and wait for llama to answer or re-answer the question I've asked. I will say llama had my eye yesterday but for a completely different reason - I think he took Lorab's comment and twisted her words and then voted on the twisted words. I don't know that that makes him a baddie but it raised my eyebrow.

I have more to say but I'm too tired now and your tone has kind of turned me off so I think it's time to walk away from the computer and go to bed.

[Long Con]

This changes my whole perception of the situation that LC could have been a color set, and that in fact he could have auto searched a Railroad if Llama was already found. I agree his behavior was iffy on Day 0 and I agree with MP on the total turnabout on Llama. He did a fake back and forth with Bullzeye in Monty where i didn't bite on it too much and they played me at the end when they were distancing teammates. I would NOT put past LC to do it here again with Llama. Not to mention Llama and him having fake arguments today on "don't ruin my game" and stuff to now them not after each other again and focusing lights on me and MM to get out of the radar.

So you want to lynch them whether they are baddies or LMS? LMS without a kill is better than a civvie, but i would still rather find a baddie. And even if we are to accept that they have BTS now, how do you know it is baddie BTS, not civvie BTS?

Did either LC or Llama land on a utility?

Like I said, there's nothing that's been said about a reason why I'd be a baddie, except that MP and Boogs find it very easy to make their "case" against me and tack on "or he's a baddie" at the end for no logical reason.

Neither of us has landed on a Utility.

[thellama73]

You agree that juliets looks bad, but you don't expound on it. Then you vote Boogs.

That is an excellent summary of events as they occurred, in the order that they occurred.

[fingersplints]

I was kinda trying to make a joke with you about you doing a bad job of it if you suspect me, but I guess that fell flat.

I got it.

Mp I feel like a total dumb cat. I re-ead and realized that Railroads Do NOT start with BTSC like mafia usually do, only the utilities do. So it makes total sense now Llama and LC are railroads and they found the third with the auto search. I was under the impression of normal rules that Baddies start with BtSC. I am on it now buddy and same page. Let's get them.

That seems incredibly lucky that they happened to find each other N1. And then just blatantly buddied up in the thread for no other reason then to flaunt their btsc. This doesn't fit the style of either of them.

It seems like you are changing why LC is bad to fit this. It doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I feel like this is incredibly distracting and that you have a one track mind at this point, which is keeping us away from discussing the rest of the players.

[thellama73]

But llama, this is for you: what made you change your mind about LC overnight? I think the whole theory lies in the answer to this question because it's what led you to believe LC and llama had bts.

There is no one thing. I can't quote posts and point to the thing that made me think he is good. It is everything. It is the totality of his game play after Day 1.

I think this can best be explained by the great G. K. Chesterton.

"It is very hard for a man to defend anything of which he is entirely convinced. It is comparatively easy when he is only partially convinced. He is partially convinced because he has found this or that proof of the thing, and he can expound it. But a man is not really convinced of a philosophic theory when he finds that something proves it. He is only really convinced when he finds that everything proves it. And the more converging reasons he finds pointing to this conviction, the more bewildered he is if asked suddenly to sum them up. Thus, if one asked an ordinary intelligent man, on the spur of the moment, "Why do you prefer civilization to savagery?" he would look wildly round at object after object, and would only be able to answer vaguely, "Why, there is that bookcase . . . and the coals in the coal-scuttle . . . and pianos . . . and policemen." The whole case for civilization is that the case for it is complex. It has done so many things. But that very multiplicity of proof which ought to make reply overwhelming makes reply impossible. "

[Epignosis]

I believe birdie is a utility.

First, I have never seen the fellow this active. Ever.

Second, he (over)analyzed a Night killed player. Why for? To what end? I view those posts as empty attempts to look useful.

Third, his engagement with players role checked by the utilities, such as this one:

Hey LC, what do you make of all these people vouching for the both of us?

I'm curious about that. I have no idea on either of you at this point, but do you think any of the people vouching for you two could be utilities?

Why does bird stress he has "no idea on either of you at this point?"

And why utilities, specifically? I understand that the utilities would have checked TH on account of him landing on a space, but given the odds, couldn't a railroad defend a civilian too?

Fourth, this:

According to the rules here are the winners as follows as far as we know:
Day 1:
Hedge wins Windfall
Epignosis wins dice roll
Epignosis wins chance

Day 2:
TH wins Auto protect
TH wins jail card
LC wins auto find and has partner contact
BwT wins auction card



So Again, Epignosis and TH win 2 things. Also, how does Epignosis have so much cash to blow, he must be getting low or have help. And LC auto found a partner potentially last night making him very powerful.
I will vote for either of those 3 if we agree they are getting too strong, which I totally do.

I do appreciate the list. Thanks! I'll add it to my spreadsheet.

Do you have any reasons to think Epig, TH, or LC are bad though? The only one of those who's pinged me at all is Epig (with the stuff between LC and him), and it wasn't enough for me to vote him yet. Or do you just want to vote for them because you feel they are too powerful?

If they're powerful, then fine. But I'm going to stick with voting for people I think are bad for now.

Also, I don't think I won the auction card. Someone outbid me for it pretty close to the last minute. Can't remember who though.

Linki: That actually is a good point about LC. He seemed interested in keys' early idea about actively choosing to not search for partners. And then for him to go and bid/win an auto-find power doesn't tell me if he changed his mind, or is trying to keep others from getting it.

Not only does he allow Boogs to continue thinking I won the die block (I didn't), he pushes Boogs in my direction. But that isn't all:

Alright. So after a quick catch-up, I have to go ahead and vote. I will be gone until the lynch ends and preoccupied until then as well. I'm going with Boogs for now, because I feel like his vote for Epig came off as bandwagon-y to me. I know there's not much to go on on Day 1, but it's the only hunch I've gotten so far.

Votes Boogs

Also, I'm not sure who I'm voting for today. Right now, I'm leaning towards FZ. I didn't think too much of disagreeing with her opinion from before on searching for teammates vs. not searching for teammates. But given her reason for voting Epig on Day 1, and her emotional pleas now, I'm not so sure that may have been all for nothing.

My mind isn't totally made up though. I'm still going to see if anything else develops.

So birdie votes for Boogs AND FZ because of their votes for me on Day 1, but out of TH, LC, and me, I'm the only one who "pinged" him?

Get out of the city. -Balki

[Boogs]

I was kinda trying to make a joke with you about you doing a bad job of it if you suspect me, but I guess that fell flat.

I got it.

Mp I feel like a total dumb cat. I re-ead and realized that Railroads Do NOT start with BTSC like mafia usually do, only the utilities do. So it makes total sense now Llama and LC are railroads and they found the third with the auto search. I was under the impression of normal rules that Baddies start with BtSC. I am on it now buddy and same page. Let's get them.

That seems incredibly lucky that they happened to find each other N1. And then just blatantly buddied up in the thread for no other reason then to flaunt their btsc. This doesn't fit the style of either of them.

It seems like you are changing why LC is bad to fit this. It doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I feel like this is incredibly distracting and that you have a one track mind at this point, which is keeping us away from discussing the rest of the players.

I'm keeping you from discussing? wow lol. Because you know I have a little voodoo doll controlling you and all in my left hand. You can do whatever the hell you want. I am bringing some real discussion on lynching rather than just everyone showing up to vote for the top voter because they are lazy like FZ yesterday. There have been plenty of other name mentioned to lynch Splints besides me suggesting LC. Don't get it twisted, sister.

[Boogs]

Epignosis I counted that you had the last vote to win that dice at the end. If not you, then who outbid you that I missed after? Also, BWT is notable on your finding of flopping like a trout. Something to keep in mind on discussion for tomorrow.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis I counted that you had the last vote to win that dice at the end. If not you, then who outbid you that I missed after? Also, BWT is notable on your finding of flopping like a trout. Something to keep in mind on discussion for tomorrow.

Discussion for tomorrow? Why not today?

You don't drive the train.

Remember?

[fingersplints]

I was kinda trying to make a joke with you about you doing a bad job of it if you suspect me, but I guess that fell flat.

I got it.

Mp I feel like a total dumb cat. I re-ead and realized that Railroads Do NOT start with BTSC like mafia usually do, only the utilities do. So it makes total sense now Llama and LC are railroads and they found the third with the auto search. I was under the impression of normal rules that Baddies start with BtSC. I am on it now buddy and same page. Let's get them.

That seems incredibly lucky that they happened to find each other N1. And then just blatantly buddied up in the thread for no other reason then to flaunt their btsc. This doesn't fit the style of either of them.

It seems like you are changing why LC is bad to fit this. It doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I feel like this is incredibly distracting and that you have a one track mind at this point, which is keeping us away from discussing the rest of the players.

I'm keeping you from discussing? wow lol. Because you know I have a little voodoo doll controlling you and all in my left hand. You can do whatever the hell you want. I am bringing some real discussion on lynching rather than just everyone showing up to vote for the top voter because they are lazy like FZ yesterday. There have been plenty of other name mentioned to lynch Splints besides me suggesting LC. Don't get it twisted, sister.

This is an incredible overreaction.

Do you not think most of the discussion has centered around LC? llama being connected to LC? Who suspects LC and doesn't? Because, I do. I didn't say that has been ALL of the discussion, but a vast majority of the players are falling through the cracks.

Do you honestly not see why baddies would want to keep the conversation centered around a few individuals? With your little voodoo doll comment you are acting like this notion isn't something that comes up regularly in games.

Did I just show up to vote FZ? Here's a suggestion. Why don't we look at those players who did just show up to vote FZ and cared more about the money then lynching baddies, instead of this crusade you have started against players who bought something.

I was trying to entertain the fact that this might be a civvie you, but this defensiveness really isn't doing you any favors.