Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]

[Dennis]

1) doc was obviously on dennis
2) i'm gonna play more tomorrow cause i'm still frustrated we have had v/v wagons for 2 cycles

Why is that so obvious?

Everyone who has said something about me minus Scotty has said civ. Also it would've made Lucy look really bad after we had our fight, which assuming Lucy is civ would make it obvious to her.

I will be very surprised if the kill target was not me.

Not if Lucy had anything to do with it. And I still think she did. Her vote yestetday and wanting to eliminate a low poster.

Gun to head, my call for bad team is Lucy, Soneji and one of Splints or Mata, maybe Neon.

I think Bea would have been replaced already if she were bad, and Rox has a certain tone when she’s bad, especially if someone has spoken nastily to her. Last night after Lucy called her “Fucking Roxy”, she responded pretty calmly to it. It’s a long time since we’ve played together and I could be 100% wrong since this is a tone read. But that sharp element she has when bad is missing.

This feels really random please elaborate

It is random, it's a gun to head read. If I had to blurt out who I thought was bad, this would be it. I mainly included you becasue you replaced Jack. And I was waffly on Jack. He's Dennis' twin, and Dennis came in pretty strong, and my thought was that Jack may have been reluctant to be lying and being wolfy in front of Dennis, becasue I would imagine they would read each mother pretty well, even with no Mafia experience. But your own content seemed pretty engaged and gave me no reason to think you specifically bad, if that makes sense. It was just lingering suspicion from Jack. But I just replaced someone taking suspicion (who was town) in my last game, so I realize you need to be judged as you.

So that 's why I was pretty concrete on Splints or Mata, you were a maybe.

I'm 99.7% sure Jack didn't care about the game and his reluctance to talk was just him refusing to participate. His last post was worded exactly how I would expect a Jack being taken out of a game would be. This isn't your fault, obviously--no one but Kate and I have interacted with him so you couldn't really tell if that's wolf!Jack covering for his sub or ???!Jack just being Jack. I'm interpreting Neon on a clean slate and so far looks civ to me.

[Dennis]

Has anyone else noticed how Scotty's D1 was completely different from how he played the rest of the game? Like on D1 he was giving a 'scary petty smart kid who takes everything seriously' vibe, but then switched to 'the nice substitute teacher wants you to be on task but is still fun'. It just felt like, to me, his entire cadence and tone changed, and I can't help but wonder if it's because Wilgy/Marmot were scary civs to him and once one of them were gone he loosened up a bit.

[Golden]

Has anyone else noticed how Scotty's D1 was completely different from how he played the rest of the game? Like on D1 he was giving a 'scary petty smart kid who takes everything seriously' vibe, but then switched to 'the nice substitute teacher wants you to be on task but is still fun'. It just felt like, to me, his entire cadence and tone changed, and I can't help but wonder if it's because Wilgy/Marmot were scary civs to him and once one of them were gone he loosened up a bit.

Don’t think it has anything to do with wilgy and marmot.

But I do feel like scotty took a while to warm into appearing the way he usually is when civ in this game. It’s part of why he makes me squirrely.

[Scotty]

Has anyone else noticed how Scotty's D1 was completely different from how he played the rest of the game? Like on D1 he was giving a 'scary petty smart kid who takes everything seriously' vibe, but then switched to 'the nice substitute teacher wants you to be on task but is still fun'. It just felt like, to me, his entire cadence and tone changed, and I can't help but wonder if it's because Wilgy/Marmot were scary civs to him and once one of them were gone he loosened up a bit.

The basic truth is that if there’s a difference it’s that I’m far less engaged as I usually am because of RL issues. It’s probably imperceptible with post count but I definitely am too scatterbrained to be playing optimally right now.

To speak to “scary civs”…that’s a lol. I think there are a lot of civs that have the capabilities to be oppressive adversaries as the game goes on, so focusing on taking out civs because I fear them isn’t as big of a deal as you think it is.

But I like where your head is at.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Like, yknow, this stuff is the reason the old school players aren’t letting up on you.

i've made a decision to hold back no longer

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Sauce: I coach overwatch

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Sometimes

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I have people to do my research for me now it’s great lol

doing actual research by hand almost always changes my opinion on a subject, what job has you not doing your own research lol

I’m a public lawyer, currently in the child protection sector, previously in the justice sector. But now im also a manager with portfolio responsibilities and no time to do actual research (I still do some).

I know a decent amount about jury reform and, yes, this is my idea but the problem is abolition of juries is quite unpopular lol.

If that would stop me from getting about 2 jury summons a season from my hometown that I don’t currently reside in, I’m in support of this initiative

i actually really want to dip jury duty but never get called

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

If Lucy got chopped, I wouldn't lose sleep.

I would lucy is town.

Just like sabi was but yall didn't listen to me on that

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I'd like to be done with this topic now, k?

What would you like to talk about next?

I don't know...the state of the nation?

Which one?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

1) doc was obviously on dennis
2) i'm gonna play more tomorrow cause i'm still frustrated we have had v/v wagons for 2 cycles

Why is that so obvious?

Everyone who has said something about me minus Scotty has said civ. Also it would've made Lucy look really bad after we had our fight, which assuming Lucy is civ would make it obvious to her.

I will be very surprised if the kill target was not me.

Not if Lucy had anything to do with it. And I still think she did. Her vote yestetday and wanting to eliminate a low poster.

Gun to head, my call for bad team is Lucy, Soneji and one of Splints or Mata, maybe Neon.

I think Bea would have been replaced already if she were bad, and Rox has a certain tone when she’s bad, especially if someone has spoken nastily to her. Last night after Lucy called her “Fucking Roxy”, she responded pretty calmly to it. It’s a long time since we’ve played together and I could be 100% wrong since this is a tone read. But that sharp element she has when bad is missing.

This feels really random please elaborate

It is random, it's a gun to head read. If I had to blurt out who I thought was bad, this would be it. I mainly included you becasue you replaced Jack. And I was waffly on Jack. He's Dennis' twin, and Dennis came in pretty strong, and my thought was that Jack may have been reluctant to be lying and being wolfy in front of Dennis, becasue I would imagine they would read each mother pretty well, even with no Mafia experience. But your own content seemed pretty engaged and gave me no reason to think you specifically bad, if that makes sense. It was just lingering suspicion from Jack. But I just replaced someone taking suspicion (who was town) in my last game, so I realize you need to be judged as you.

So that 's why I was pretty concrete on Splints or Mata, you were a maybe.

Intresting. To be clear I think your blindingly town. I just don't see how you group this group together.

Which do you think is the most likely hit?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I get it like I got the enema joke

Hey neon got any new reads?

Well i think your a woofer so that's new

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Got through almost all posts in game, will be somewhat around rest of day but have a D&D session then will be watching football, so divided focus.


The first group is rightly calling for accountability from the Wilgy voters, while the second has every reason to not want to rock the boat. Dennis is a newbie, what narrative is he going to try and control? Plus several players rushed to proclaim him townie for his EoD. Seanzie just narrowly escaped the noose, of course they'd avoid a thunder dome. SVS does look good from how they explained their vote, and how they wanted a tie.

I find the bolded rather amusing as controlling the narrative has been a large part of your play this game, including this post.


One down, one to go. Don't see a Scotty push so far this day though, curious.


This is my new favorite post in this game

Townie feeling frustration


Yeah it comes off rather disingenuous to act as if there are no valid reasons to suspect Seanzie.


Reasons are simple : in a wolf Sean world, they obviously want to save their packmate. In a town Sean world, they're hoping to off a potential threat in Wilgy while the opportunity is ripe and they can act like they didn't think it'd go over, and then hope that town wants to flip the counterwagon the next day for the 2 for 1 special.


It's normal for a townie when they have reason to believe wolves think of them as a threat, which can be just felt as a known power town, but after being on two mislim wagons to start you'd think there would be some self-doubt that doc/wolves are prioritizing you.


Would you not say that if wolfchat was guiding someone coming into d2, going after Seanzie at the time of my post would be advised against considering there were multiple people defending him and momentum wasn't towards a Seanzie elim?

Do find it amusing that anyone thinks I'm being coached in general.

Pingy ping ping pingy ping

What’s pingy about it?

I found myself nodding along with it, like I’ve seemed to do with most of Soneji’s posts this game

It has exactly one purpose:

“Don’t listen to golden, he’s miseliming civs, stuff he says is probably bad”

Most of all, ‘nah, golden, you weren’t the kill target’ well fuckity fuck fuck fuck, why even go there?

Only… come on soneji, tell me who the wolf is on the wilgy wagon?

The whole post wasn’t about you, but I hear you.

I think having a mild level of suspicion on you is healthy in general

What about having a medium level of suspicion?

What relevance does this question actually have to the game? Unless this is like a general question but I imagine everyone here as being pretty advanced so

It has a lot of relevance honestly.

[Scotty]

Pingy ping ping pingy ping

What’s pingy about it?

I found myself nodding along with it, like I’ve seemed to do with most of Soneji’s posts this game

It has exactly one purpose:

“Don’t listen to golden, he’s miseliming civs, stuff he says is probably bad”

Most of all, ‘nah, golden, you weren’t the kill target’ well fuckity fuck fuck fuck, why even go there?

Only… come on soneji, tell me who the wolf is on the wilgy wagon?

The whole post wasn’t about you, but I hear you.

I think having a mild level of suspicion on you is healthy in general

What about having a medium level of suspicion?

What relevance does this question actually have to the game? Unless this is like a general question but I imagine everyone here as being pretty advanced so

It has a lot of relevance honestly.

I dont currently have a medium suspicion of golden, but go forth and shine your light on him, neon sign

[Golden]

Like, yknow, this stuff is the reason the old school players aren’t letting up on you.

i've made a decision to hold back no longer

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

[Golden]

I get it like I got the enema joke

Hey neon got any new reads?

Well i think your a woofer so that's new

I think you’re confusing me with Scotty. I’m no dog.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

What’s pingy about it?

I found myself nodding along with it, like I’ve seemed to do with most of Soneji’s posts this game

It has exactly one purpose:

“Don’t listen to golden, he’s miseliming civs, stuff he says is probably bad”

Most of all, ‘nah, golden, you weren’t the kill target’ well fuckity fuck fuck fuck, why even go there?

Only… come on soneji, tell me who the wolf is on the wilgy wagon?

The whole post wasn’t about you, but I hear you.

I think having a mild level of suspicion on you is healthy in general

What about having a medium level of suspicion?

What relevance does this question actually have to the game? Unless this is like a general question but I imagine everyone here as being pretty advanced so

It has a lot of relevance honestly.

I dont currently have a medium suspicion of golden, but go forth and shine your light on him, neon sign

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Like, yknow, this stuff is the reason the old school players aren’t letting up on you.

i've made a decision to hold back no longer

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

*shrugs* the game is fine meta is fine I quite enjoy meta because I get to spend time trying to figure out how to break it

But that's the point you have to figure out how to break it.

There's a reason why I think it's optimal to flip the D1 CW because it gives us valuable info about the approach the woofs likely took to D1. Sure we have PRs but tell me what have they given us? Because right now we are shooting in the dark are we not?

We've learned nothing and we continue to push down the same doors and the longer it goes on the less valuable it even becomes to ever flip Seanzie because by not flipping the D1 CW we allow the wolfs to set up their limlo kill to win the game and Seanzie is certainly not blindingly town so he will always have suspicion if he's town and if he's not than we have just lost the thread of a dead wolf.

But that's neither here nor there because I will not push into a wagon with no traction anyways regardless of if it's optimal or not

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I get it like I got the enema joke

Hey neon got any new reads?

Well i think your a woofer so that's new

I think you’re confusing me with Scotty. I’m no dog.

Bark bark. I think you like the light of the full moon.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

[Golden]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Sometimes i put myself not as my top town though for fun.

[Golden]

I actually like your towncore. It’s a good look that makes me feel good about you.

[Golden]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

[Scotty]

I don’t remember why I read falcon as town

[Golden]

I don’t remember why I read falcon as town

I don't know either. If you figure out why, feel free to enlighten me.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

It's NAI at best.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Now as much as I believe in my town reads they are very spread out and I am not the leader type who's going to save town from itself.

I'm the girl who's going to meme and fuck around while playing.

But we got this and I believe in all of us uwu.

[Golden]

Reads list

90-99% town

Svs
Kate
Dennis
Seanzie
Bea

65-90% town

Lucy
Scotty
Neon

PoE

Soneji
Splints
Matahari
Roxy
Falcon

If there’s a deepwolf in the top group it’s a Cascio.

[Golden]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

Most people don’t include themselves in reads lists or rainbow lists… I find this usually but not universally extends to towncores. Most people don’t put themselves in their towncore. For some people it’s NAI, but in my experience on average wolves do it more. Do you always do it?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

Most people don’t include themselves in reads lists or rainbow lists… I find this usually but not universally extends to towncores. Most people don’t put themselves in their towncore. For some people it’s NAI, but in my experience on average wolves do it more. Do you always do it?

Yes as do the majority of players I learned to play with and I think most players in general.

In my old home forum before the drama and bs it was considered a scum tell to not put yourself in your reads list lol

[Golden]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

Most people don’t include themselves in reads lists or rainbow lists… I find this usually but not universally extends to towncores. Most people don’t put themselves in their towncore. For some people it’s NAI, but in my experience on average wolves do it more. Do you always do it?

Yes as do the majority of players I learned to play with and I think most players in general.

In my old home forum before the drama and bs it was considered a scum tell to not put yourself in your reads list lol

Lol ok metas derived from different places works for me.

[Soneji]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

The logical assumption is that someone includes themselves among their towncore by default so it's unnecessary and potentially performative to list themselves, because either they know they're town from their rolecard, or they know they need to fake being town from their rolecard. One doesn't normally include themselves in readslist as they cannot make a read on their own alignment which is a known factor to them, and either they know they're town or need to fake it. The need for anti-town to fake being town is what subconsciously can cause them to want to project "I AM TOWN" at every opportunity, hence listing themselves in towncores/townreads lists.

It is common enough for actual townies, especially from certain site cultures, to list themselves in such things so it's not a hard wolf tell, but it can be a soft tell when alongside other performative town projection examples.

[Golden]

Like, yknow, this stuff is the reason the old school players aren’t letting up on you.

i've made a decision to hold back no longer

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

*shrugs* the game is fine meta is fine I quite enjoy meta because I get to spend time trying to figure out how to break it

But that's the point you have to figure out how to break it.

There's a reason why I think it's optimal to flip the D1 CW because it gives us valuable info about the approach the woofs likely took to D1. Sure we have PRs but tell me what have they given us? Because right now we are shooting in the dark are we not?

We've learned nothing and we continue to push down the same doors and the longer it goes on the less valuable it even becomes to ever flip Seanzie because by not flipping the D1 CW we allow the wolfs to set up their limlo kill to win the game and Seanzie is certainly not blindingly town so he will always have suspicion if he's town and if he's not than we have just lost the thread of a dead wolf.

But that's neither here nor there because I will not push into a wagon with no traction anyways regardless of if it's optimal or not

So I do want to say I respect and understand this explanation.

For me, I think solving both seanzie!t and seanzie!w worlds and finding the commonalities is also valid. In a seanzie!t world I think the Wilgy wagon is clean, but Lucy is the most likely baddie of the Wilgy voters (she played a pivotal role in it turning from not-wagon to wagon given getting to 5-4 from 5-3 feels like a real game changer). In a seanzie!w wagon the Wilgy vote is clearly not clean, given Seanzie is on it, and Dennis comes into view as a possible teammate. I think seanzie/lucy w/w is unlikely, and I think SVS is town in both configurations.

If sean!t, I also think lynching the counterwagon wastes a day on no real info, because I don't think it gives us more insight into the wolves at all. I think much more insight is gleaned by the fact that Seanzie went the entire day until the last 30 minutes without a counterwagon forming, and it really was marmot and me (and, in the spirit of your towncore, I shall point out I know both these people are town) that made it possible for something to form.

[Golden]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

The logical assumption is that someone includes themselves among their towncore by default so it's unnecessary and potentially performative to list themselves, because either they know they're town from their rolecard, or they know they need to fake being town from their rolecard. One doesn't normally include themselves in readslist as they cannot make a read on their own alignment which is a known factor to them, and either they know they're town or need to fake it. The need for anti-town to fake being town is what subconsciously can cause them to want to project "I AM TOWN" at every opportunity, hence listing themselves in towncores/townreads lists.

It is common enough for actual townies, especially from certain site cultures, to list themselves in such things so it's not a hard wolf tell, but it can be a soft tell when alongside other performative town projection examples.

Yeah this is an accurate analysis.

But also I can accept/understand the idea that a culture can grow up the opposite way.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Town

Me
SVS
Lucy
Dennis
Scotty
Bea

That's where I'm at right now. Anyone not in this list is in my scum pile enjoy your stay.

Putting yourself in your towncore is… (finish the sentence)

Correct. I mean I know I'm town lol

I usually give it a wolflean, but the rest of the list balances it out.

That seems weird I think most players include themself in their reads and why would they ever say they aren't town

The logical assumption is that someone includes themselves among their towncore by default so it's unnecessary and potentially performative to list themselves, because either they know they're town from their rolecard, or they know they need to fake being town from their rolecard. One doesn't normally include themselves in readslist as they cannot make a read on their own alignment which is a known factor to them, and either they know they're town or need to fake it. The need for anti-town to fake being town is what subconsciously can cause them to want to project "I AM TOWN" at every opportunity, hence listing themselves in towncores/townreads lists.

It is common enough for actual townies, especially from certain site cultures, to list themselves in such things so it's not a hard wolf tell, but it can be a soft tell when alongside other performative town projection examples.

A performative the single greatest buzzword in mafia. I think performative reads kill more town than mafia.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

i've made a decision to hold back no longer

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

*shrugs* the game is fine meta is fine I quite enjoy meta because I get to spend time trying to figure out how to break it

But that's the point you have to figure out how to break it.

There's a reason why I think it's optimal to flip the D1 CW because it gives us valuable info about the approach the woofs likely took to D1. Sure we have PRs but tell me what have they given us? Because right now we are shooting in the dark are we not?

We've learned nothing and we continue to push down the same doors and the longer it goes on the less valuable it even becomes to ever flip Seanzie because by not flipping the D1 CW we allow the wolfs to set up their limlo kill to win the game and Seanzie is certainly not blindingly town so he will always have suspicion if he's town and if he's not than we have just lost the thread of a dead wolf.

But that's neither here nor there because I will not push into a wagon with no traction anyways regardless of if it's optimal or not

So I do want to say I respect and understand this explanation.

For me, I think solving both seanzie!t and seanzie!w worlds and finding the commonalities is also valid. In a seanzie!t world I think the Wilgy wagon is clean, but Lucy is the most likely baddie of the Wilgy voters (she played a pivotal role in it turning from not-wagon to wagon given getting to 5-4 from 5-3 feels like a real game changer). In a seanzie!w wagon the Wilgy vote is clearly not clean, given Seanzie is on it, and Dennis comes into view as a possible teammate. I think seanzie/lucy w/w is unlikely, and I think SVS is town in both configurations.

If sean!t, I also think lynching the counterwagon wastes a day on no real info, because I don't think it gives us more insight into the wolves at all. I think much more insight is gleaned by the fact that Seanzie went the entire day until the last 30 minutes without a counterwagon forming, and it really was marmot and me (and, in the spirit of your towncore, I shall point out I know both these people are town) that made it possible for something to form.

I think saying we gain no info from Seanzie flipping town is disingenuous. Seanzie flipping town means the woofs probably spent d1 laid back since by your own analysis Seanzie was a lead wagon for most of the day. In this world at most I think one wolf but maybe none were trying to control the thread narrative because town was eating itself alive and they were never in any threat

But in a Sean wolf world wagon movement at EoD is critical because it was likely a concerted effort by the woofs to save Sean when they realized the opportunity was there, they might not have led the push off Sean but they certainly were part of it.


What was the D1 VC anyways? I'll go dig it up

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

So in a wolf Sean world I think it's likely there's only one wolf left on Sean at EoD and no woofs pff wagon

In a town Sean world I think there's a wolf on each of the main wagons and one off wagon

These are the things that flipping Sean can help me sort. I find it highly unlikely that Wilgz is clean ever. I find that take odd.

[Golden]

also it is genuinely fun playing with old school players, seeing different perspectives on reads and game theory, however i will advocate for current meta as that to me is the best practice

and i'll be my obsessive self since i'm extremely good at hunting scum

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

*shrugs* the game is fine meta is fine I quite enjoy meta because I get to spend time trying to figure out how to break it

But that's the point you have to figure out how to break it.

There's a reason why I think it's optimal to flip the D1 CW because it gives us valuable info about the approach the woofs likely took to D1. Sure we have PRs but tell me what have they given us? Because right now we are shooting in the dark are we not?

We've learned nothing and we continue to push down the same doors and the longer it goes on the less valuable it even becomes to ever flip Seanzie because by not flipping the D1 CW we allow the wolfs to set up their limlo kill to win the game and Seanzie is certainly not blindingly town so he will always have suspicion if he's town and if he's not than we have just lost the thread of a dead wolf.

But that's neither here nor there because I will not push into a wagon with no traction anyways regardless of if it's optimal or not

So I do want to say I respect and understand this explanation.

For me, I think solving both seanzie!t and seanzie!w worlds and finding the commonalities is also valid. In a seanzie!t world I think the Wilgy wagon is clean, but Lucy is the most likely baddie of the Wilgy voters (she played a pivotal role in it turning from not-wagon to wagon given getting to 5-4 from 5-3 feels like a real game changer). In a seanzie!w wagon the Wilgy vote is clearly not clean, given Seanzie is on it, and Dennis comes into view as a possible teammate. I think seanzie/lucy w/w is unlikely, and I think SVS is town in both configurations.

If sean!t, I also think lynching the counterwagon wastes a day on no real info, because I don't think it gives us more insight into the wolves at all. I think much more insight is gleaned by the fact that Seanzie went the entire day until the last 30 minutes without a counterwagon forming, and it really was marmot and me (and, in the spirit of your towncore, I shall point out I know both these people are town) that made it possible for something to form.

I think saying we gain no info from Seanzie flipping town is disingenuous. Seanzie flipping town means the woofs probably spent d1 laid back since by your own analysis Seanzie was a lead wagon for most of the day. In this world at most I think one wolf but maybe none were trying to control the thread narrative because town was eating itself alive and they were never in any threat

But in a Sean wolf world wagon movement at EoD is critical because it was likely a concerted effort by the woofs to save Sean when they realized the opportunity was there, they might not have led the push off Sean but they certainly were part of it.


What was the D1 VC anyways? I'll go dig it up

There wasn’t really wagon movement. There was just a Seanzie wagon all day that never shifted, and then a wilgy wagon at eod. We briefly got three votes on Lucy before sean invited there.

It’s evident the wolves were laid back despite Seanzie wagon all day. That’s why I say there’s no real info to be gained. There was no effort to save him for 47 hours and 25 minutes. Several attempts at counterwagons could have been viable and none of them got anywhere.

[Golden]

So in a wolf Sean world I think it's likely there's only one wolf left on Sean at EoD and no woofs pff wagon

In a town Sean world I think there's a wolf on each of the main wagons and one off wagon

These are the things that flipping Sean can help me sort. I find it highly unlikely that Wilgz is clean ever. I find that take odd.

Give me one good reason for wolves to jump on that wagon if Sean is town. It’s inevitable people will come into the next day saying ‘let’s examine that wilgy wagon closely’

[Golden]

Wilgy wagon is clean
Me knowing it is why I was the wolf target last night.

At end of game I’m gonna look like a genius or a dumbass.

[Golden]

If Lucy is wolf and jumped on when she did that was bad play.

The only other slots that make sense if sean is town are me/marmot.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

There’s best practice in dentistry.

In mafia there is no best practice. There’s just people who think their way is best and people who have seen an abundance of styles work well and realise that you can’t science the game into an algorithm.

The reason I’m on a five game win streak as a deepwolf is that too many people think like you. I can beat ‘best practice’ every time but I’m fucked if I think I can beat SVSs gut.

This is the same argument teams make in overwatch to say that the esports meta is boring and stale because it's the same thing over and over but the problem is its not boring and stale it's the meta because it shits all over every other composition you can come up with UNTIL it doesn't at which point that is now the meta

A meta doesn't develop if it's really easily exploitable it develops because it trumps all other styles

Look, I don’t host mountainous anyway because I can’t imagine enjoying throwing the exact same game into the void over and over but if the game is so broken that there’s a dominant meta it’s time to patch the game. Something Blizzard knows well. The specific power roles in this game are all optimal-meta-shifting. That’s a patch.

Also, my deepwolf streak says otherwise. Current metas are easily exploited, especially ones as predictable as ‘always lynching the counterwagon.’ Which I’ve only heard from you, so I assume it’s not exactly a definingly strong meta atm.

*shrugs* the game is fine meta is fine I quite enjoy meta because I get to spend time trying to figure out how to break it

But that's the point you have to figure out how to break it.

There's a reason why I think it's optimal to flip the D1 CW because it gives us valuable info about the approach the woofs likely took to D1. Sure we have PRs but tell me what have they given us? Because right now we are shooting in the dark are we not?

We've learned nothing and we continue to push down the same doors and the longer it goes on the less valuable it even becomes to ever flip Seanzie because by not flipping the D1 CW we allow the wolfs to set up their limlo kill to win the game and Seanzie is certainly not blindingly town so he will always have suspicion if he's town and if he's not than we have just lost the thread of a dead wolf.

But that's neither here nor there because I will not push into a wagon with no traction anyways regardless of if it's optimal or not

So I do want to say I respect and understand this explanation.

For me, I think solving both seanzie!t and seanzie!w worlds and finding the commonalities is also valid. In a seanzie!t world I think the Wilgy wagon is clean, but Lucy is the most likely baddie of the Wilgy voters (she played a pivotal role in it turning from not-wagon to wagon given getting to 5-4 from 5-3 feels like a real game changer). In a seanzie!w wagon the Wilgy vote is clearly not clean, given Seanzie is on it, and Dennis comes into view as a possible teammate. I think seanzie/lucy w/w is unlikely, and I think SVS is town in both configurations.

If sean!t, I also think lynching the counterwagon wastes a day on no real info, because I don't think it gives us more insight into the wolves at all. I think much more insight is gleaned by the fact that Seanzie went the entire day until the last 30 minutes without a counterwagon forming, and it really was marmot and me (and, in the spirit of your towncore, I shall point out I know both these people are town) that made it possible for something to form.

I think saying we gain no info from Seanzie flipping town is disingenuous. Seanzie flipping town means the woofs probably spent d1 laid back since by your own analysis Seanzie was a lead wagon for most of the day. In this world at most I think one wolf but maybe none were trying to control the thread narrative because town was eating itself alive and they were never in any threat

But in a Sean wolf world wagon movement at EoD is critical because it was likely a concerted effort by the woofs to save Sean when they realized the opportunity was there, they might not have led the push off Sean but they certainly were part of it.


What was the D1 VC anyways? I'll go dig it up

There wasn’t really wagon movement. There was just a Seanzie wagon all day that never shifted, and then a wilgy wagon at eod. We briefly got three votes on Lucy before sean invited there.

It’s evident the wolves were laid back despite Seanzie wagon all day. That’s why I say there’s no real info to be gained. There was no effort to save him for 47 hours and 25 minutes. Several attempts at counterwagons could have been viable and none of them got anywhere.

I disagree I've seen plenty of games where the wagon was stagnant for most of the day but wolfs were not chill and were very much directing thread flow and planting seeds. In most games the most critical and important reason movement happens at EoD and never before and in most games the person who is wagon the majority of the day is never the execution.

It's why I often love being a wagon early but get super defensive when I'm a wagon late.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

So in a wolf Sean world I think it's likely there's only one wolf left on Sean at EoD and no woofs pff wagon

In a town Sean world I think there's a wolf on each of the main wagons and one off wagon

These are the things that flipping Sean can help me sort. I find it highly unlikely that Wilgz is clean ever. I find that take odd.

Give me one good reason for wolves to jump on that wagon if Sean is town. It’s inevitable people will come into the next day saying ‘let’s examine that wilgy wagon closely’

I'd do it lol.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

In fact I'd argue we've proven the wagon is not being looked at critically

[Golden]

So in a wolf Sean world I think it's likely there's only one wolf left on Sean at EoD and no woofs pff wagon

In a town Sean world I think there's a wolf on each of the main wagons and one off wagon

These are the things that flipping Sean can help me sort. I find it highly unlikely that Wilgz is clean ever. I find that take odd.

Give me one good reason for wolves to jump on that wagon if Sean is town. It’s inevitable people will come into the next day saying ‘let’s examine that wilgy wagon closely’

I'd do it lol.

I like you and i think I’d enjoy wolfing with you

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

So in a wolf Sean world I think it's likely there's only one wolf left on Sean at EoD and no woofs pff wagon

In a town Sean world I think there's a wolf on each of the main wagons and one off wagon

These are the things that flipping Sean can help me sort. I find it highly unlikely that Wilgz is clean ever. I find that take odd.

Give me one good reason for wolves to jump on that wagon if Sean is town. It’s inevitable people will come into the next day saying ‘let’s examine that wilgy wagon closely’

I'd do it lol.

I like you and i think I’d enjoy wolfing with you

[Golden]

At this point neon oozes town for me.