The Syndicate

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:05 pm**

Michelle

Spoiler: show

Texas Cloverleaf

Spoiler: show

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:06 pm**

Oh wow. The coolest role was killed off immediately. Thanks wolves.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:07 pm**

Funny note:

When Evenstar initially outed Master Radishes with her parting WIFOM, she didn't actually know it was him. Were it not for that, he might have been viewed as confirmed town due to the Limbo arrangement (at least until Colin could interject).

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:14 pm**

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:07 pm Funny note:

When Evenstar initially outed Master Radishes with her parting WIFOM, she didn't actually know it was him. Were it not for that, he might have been viewed as confirmed town due to the Limbo arrangement (at least until Colin could interject).

If it hadn't been for Eva's poisoning in limbo I would have thought MR was town for sure.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:17 pm**

In case anyone is not already aware: this game broke all Syndicate posting records. This thread alone is longer than any other game thread before we even account for the other three dream level threads. And iaafr broke our individual record for most posts in a game when you count all of his posts across threads.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:18 pm**

subconscious aspect of apathy here btw

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:19 pm**

sprityo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:21 pm Good game everyone

I at the least enjoyed being correct post death, it’s too bad it was swept under the rug. It’s always the games you try the hardest that you lose isn’t it?

Big shoutout to Master Radishes and Evenstar especially for making this one hell of a challenge for me personally

You were formidable as fuck as usual. So underrated.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:27 pm**

Man Tex's role would have been so cooooool

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:37 pm**

Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:31 pm Also thanks to Mac for the invite would never have been able to play without it

Thanks for playing man

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:43 pm**

Thank you to everyone for playing. This game was far from typical and I can only imagine the frustration that must have been caused by some our hijinks on the lower levels early on. All of if had a purpose, of course, but being thrown into those situations in the dark had the potential to be a nuisance for you guys who actually had to play through it. And then the game itself turned into a behemoth that went on forever and ever. It was great and ultra competitive because you guys made it work.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:44 pm**

11111 replies

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:44 pm**

[mention]juliets[/mention]

You played a great game and we all love you.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:45 pm**

The degree to which the game dragged was unfortunate. I thought we could be out of here by Night 10. But

G L O B A L
R O L E
B L O C K

I'm very glad everyone could play our game.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:48 pm**

nutella wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:27 pm Man Tex's role would have been so cooooool

Pretty much nothing happened with that role in both iterations of this game.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:51 pm**

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:19 pm
sprityo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:21 pm Good game everyone

I at the least enjoyed being correct post death, it’s too bad it was swept under the rug. It’s always the games you try the hardest that you lose isn’t it?

Big shoutout to Master Radishes and Evenstar especially for making this one hell of a challenge for me personally
You were formidable as fuck as usual. So underrated.

Agreed. [mention]sprityo[/mention] I wasn't even trying to buddy you. In fact, I was understating it because I didn't want to seem like I was buddying you. When you play hard, your towngame is real fucking good.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:51 pm**

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:17 pm In case anyone is not already aware: this game broke all Syndicate posting records. This thread alone is longer than any other game thread before we even account for the other three dream level threads. And iaafr broke our individual record for most posts in a game when you count all of his posts across threads.

WOW, that is incredible. We had a very good, very mafia savvy group of people. I will never forget this game it kept me sane while making me insane.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:01 pm**

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:07 pm Now townies, don't yell at me, I did the best I could.

I literally claimed Radishes was confirmed town the day after there was no kill

How you didnt read that as Oh she is the doctor

is beyond me

but you did your best, I suppose.

Just actually listen to me next time.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:09 pm**

This was the game with the most posts ever on RYM too, but that one ended at like 5,600.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:13 pm**

Wooooot! Way to go, Jack, you carried it through! I wish I could have at least tied it up during my lynch but I couldn't get online. All part of destiny's fickle ways I guess.

Awesome win! Jack has my vote for player of the year this time.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:16 pm**

Lady LambdaDelta wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:01 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:07 pm Now townies, don't yell at me, I did the best I could.
I literally claimed Radishes was confirmed town the day after there was no kill

How you didnt read that as Oh she is the doctor

is beyond me

but you did your best, I suppose.

Just actually listen to me next time.

I looked at that quote at least 10 times but didn't understand how it made you the doctor. My mind was just not comprehending.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 pm**

[mention]Elephant[/mention] you pocketed me SOOOO well.

I was sure you were the cop when you spewed me town.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:27 pm**

[mention]Dragomir[/mention]

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:28 pm**

I don't even want to see how you guys planned that out in scum chat. It would hurt my feelings. Well, maybe not.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:29 pm**

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 pm @Elephant you pocketed me SOOOO well.

I was sure you were the cop when you spewed me town.

That was some good shit.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:32 pm**

If you fail to achieve inception, one of the players you selected at random will be poisoned.

[mention]Evenstar[/mention]
-- lynches the 3p
-- achieves Inception
-- dies to poison anyway
That was a rand that didn't go well (who were the other players?).

[mention]juliets[/mention] Spec Chat loves you!

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] Super well played, thanks for bringing it home!

The first four phases had 10 lynches at the various levels. Dragomir was the ONLY scum lynch! The scum team WON 9 LYNChES at odds of initially 1 in 5 , and D5-D12 my team won 4 mislynches (and a modkill) out of 8 Lynches. Mechanically, Jack could have used the global block tonight, blocking Master Radishes from using poison, and killing him for an outright Inception Team Win!
In total, we won 13 Mislynches (and a modkill) over 18 lynches, which is OVER TWO MISLYNCHES per team member; this should not have been a close call at all, and D5 was VERY disappointing for us because 1 extra kill as prize was not a reward that feels commensurate with the effort and achievement that those 9 mislynches represented, and the information it gave town (at least 1 scum team member at every level) that, had everyone been onboard with [mention]sprityo[/mention] , would have put each of us in a POE of 3 or worse.

I very much enjoyed being the Elephant! Thanks to everyone who played, and especially my team, [mention]Dragomir[/mention] (who ran with my suggestion of doubling down on the sleaze), [mention]Evenstar[/mention] (thanks for the late night strategy discussion that wouldn't end), [mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] (who is an amazing deepwolf and had to take me vig-killing him in MU Throne Mash because I had observed his scum game up close here and identified/suspected it there), [mention]Long Con[/mention] (who supported my play in the "coffee" group that lynched so many town with NO connectives left behind), and [mention]MacDougall[/mention] (who deserves all the baguettes

)!

Out of the D2-D4 group, I also want to shout out to [mention]nutella[/mention] , [mention]Hyena[/mention], [mention]Creature[/mention] and especially [mention]juliets[/mention] , whose friendliness really warmed me, but had to be met with deception

I have randed scum or 3p in EVERY single off-site game I have been invited to (5 different sites so far), and it is NOT fun to meet new people and deceive them!!

: image.jpeg (68.94 KiB) Viewed 2020 times

https://www.thedaliuniverse.com/en/triu ... -sculpture

wtf who turned linki back on

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:34 pm**

Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:32 pm That was a rand that didn't go well (who were the other players?).

MR's selections pre-inception:

N1 - Creature
N2 - Evenstar
N3 - iaafr

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:37 pm**

LOVE that pic Elephant and even tho I was pocketed I made a good friend.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:38 pm**

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 pm @Elephant you pocketed me SOOOO well.

I was sure you were the cop when you spewed me town.

Well, I was sure you were the vig when I did that, so...

It's been a blast playing with you, and you have made me feel very welcome here!

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:45 pm**

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:28 pm I don't even want to see how you guys planned that out in scum chat. It would hurt my feelings. Well, maybe not.

Benson's little game D2 helped me see who was a threat and who wasn't, but other than that, there wasn't much planning that went into it as we did not have day chat. [mention]vanity.[/mention]'s box of 5 suspects was very dangerous as it had both me and Long Con in it, and I had to open that POE immediately to ensure our survival! Spiny/Boo wasn't originally in that POE!

I felt you were the vigilante because of your TSP ISO on D1 and the TSP nightkill that followed, and the serious work that went into collecting the voting records that pointed at an important night action decision. You hid your actual role very well!

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:49 pm**

Elephant wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:45 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:28 pm I don't even want to see how you guys planned that out in scum chat. It would hurt my feelings. Well, maybe not.
Benson's little game D2 helped me see who was a threat and who wasn't, but other than that, there wasn't much planning that went into it as we did not have day chat. vanity.'s box of 5 suspects was very dangerous as it had both me and Long Con in it, and I had to open that POE immediately to ensure our survival! Spiny/Boo wasn't originally in that POE!

I felt you were the vigilante because of your TSP ISO on D1 and the TSP nightkill that followed, and the serious work that went into collecting the voting records that pointed at an important night action decision. You hid your actual role very well!

oh my God you didn't have day chat? I don't think there has ever been a game like that on this site. That sneaky JJJ and Sloonei.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 pm**

probably should've actually asked about daychat when I had the impulse to but I enjoy playing suboptimally too much.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:58 pm**

I'll explain the rationale underlying our numbers ratios and most basic balance formulations. I don't care to argue about anything or to defend my viewpoints; I simply have no time for that. Manuscripts are now my priority given that 6:00 PM finally belongs to me again.

Folks may disagree with our rationale, and that's fine.

~ Foremost, the numbers ratios we are accustomed to in more classically-built Mafia games (3:1 or 3.5:1 town:mafia) must be adjusted in any game wherein role claiming and infodumping are illegal. This is a considerable hindrance to the town's usual solving methodology, and that impacts the balance of any game in which it is implemented. Generally when this rule is active for an open setup, I favor a ratio more in the 3.75:1 or 4:1 range. This game was 23:6:1 --> 3.83:1 ratio (not accounting for two-way third party swing).

>>> Additionally, this specific game added numerous wrinkles which further challenge the town approach more than they challenge the mafia approach (even if both factions have to adapt, the hindrance is clearly pro-mafia). Consider days 2-4, when town had no previous game content to guide their hunt -- on top of a private voting mechanism that severely limits town cohesion and teamwork. It doesn't make solving impossible, but it certainly makes it harder.

>>> This means that on balance, town's ability to stop BOTH the 3P and the mafia from achieving inception was pretty limited (though in the first iteration they actually did that). The more reasonable goal was to stop one or the other.

>>> I also believe the game is probably more lopsided without the very unlucky poisoning of Evenstar. The timing was awful, and it blew up everything the mafia were doing. That was serious adversity.

~ Knowledge of the game at its onset strongly favored the mafia here as well. They had a clear objective which projected what was coming and enabled planning. Town had no such knowledge and had to adapt on the fly to everything we threw at them.

~ I am of the belief that overall across the Mafiascape online, most hosts simply make life too easy for mafia teams (in ornately-designed games emphasizing thematic creativity that don't lend themselves to balance like vanilla+ type setups). I design my games with that mindset, and even still the mafia have won more than they have lost (10-7 advantage on The Syndicate).

Do I believe this game was perfectly balanced? No. Overall, I would say it's probably more town-sided than it is mafia-sided. I don't think it's a mess in that regard though. I don't think it's worse than a 60-40 win chance from the word "Go" there, and I really think it's closer than that. It must be noted that the mafia are now 2-0 in this setup (and last time town was less hindered). All three factions had a real chance to win this game, and I think the performances of all three factions reflected that. The mafia team started very strong and then fell into very hard times later. The town trajectory was quite opposite. Radish had to overcome being outed as a killing third party, and he did that.

When this game was at the final six or so, I felt every faction had an approximately equal chance to win the game. And I felt that's where they deserved to be too. I am satisfied with the way the mechanics broke down. It may not seem entirely balanced to those who played it, and I understand the mindset. I am not going to argue. I think Sloonei and I got this one as right as we could though despite the immense difficulty of projecting how it would develop.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:00 pm**

The lack of day chat was a sort of compromise we decided on late. We figured there were two options to keep communicative rights "fair" enough:

~ Let the mafia chat during the day, but not across levels
~ Let the mafia chat across levels, but not during the day

Both or neither didn't fit our fancy.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:02 pm**

Any game that comes down to one single altered choice swinging the victory to the other side is balanced in my books.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:07 pm**

it was townsided imo in a situation where various town didn't get demoralized for various reasons and also modkilled

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:07 pm**

but yeah more or less balanced in my book

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:08 pm**

And to my Mafia team, that Day that we planned the Epignosis lynch the night before, and it went off without a hitch... magnificent!

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:10 pm**

What a game.

Well played all.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:22 pm**

Evenstar wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:10 pm What a game.

Well played all.

Yes, including you.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm**

Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm**

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.

Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:36 pm**

Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)

I respect any vig who just shoots the damned gun.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:39 pm**

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:08 pm And to my Mafia team, that Day that we planned the Epignosis lynch the night before, and it went off without a hitch... magnificent!

yeah it was pretty awesome and as it turned out we probably were right to have done it, even though our play on that day probably caused our lynches

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 pm**

Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)

Oh no! I was so wrong about him but oh well.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 pm**

juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 pm
Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)
Oh no! I was so wrong about him but oh well.

It happens nothing to do now but thing back on it all.
I still thought I was gonna be lynched very soon so just wanted to use the shots instead of lose them

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:20 pm**

Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:19 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 pm
Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)
Oh no! I was so wrong about him but oh well.
It happens nothing to do now but thing back on it all.
I still thought I was gonna be lynched very soon so just wanted to use the shots instead of lose them

I think thats the smart thing for the vig to do

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:51 pm**

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:36 pm
Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)
I respect any vig who just shoots the damned gun.

Strongly agree with JJJ. Odds don’t get better if town is doing its job.

1 shot RBs or doctors should be saved I think, no reason to not shoot someone day 1. Just not me please.

Posted: **Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:56 pm**

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:51 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:36 pm
Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:34 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:25 pm Alright who vigged me?? I’m out for blood.
jk apparently I was scummy so I’d rather take a vig kill than make someone waste a lynch.
Hides behind cover

I read Juliets posts on you and agreed with it so I decided that was a good shot otherwise would have tryied to lynch you the next day. (I have yet to shot a wolf as a vig and now have 5 shots taken)
I respect any vig who just shoots the damned gun.
Strongly agree with JJJ. Odds don’t get better if town is doing its job.

1 shot RBs or doctors should be saved I think, no reason to not shoot someone day 1. Just not me please.

I made a stick note on my monitor at hope that says don't vig Tony it lasts for one game so next time I get vig and your in the game your safe.

I am sorry I imagine if others were the vig I would have been shot as well i gwt your pain.

Posted: **Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:02 am**

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:58 pm I'll explain the rationale underlying our numbers ratios and most basic balance formulations. I don't care to argue about anything or to defend my viewpoints; I simply have no time for that. Manuscripts are now my priority given that 6:00 PM finally belongs to me again. Folks may disagree with our rationale, and that's fine.

~ Foremost, the numbers ratios we are accustomed to in more classically-built Mafia games (3:1 or 3.5:1 town:mafia) must be adjusted in any game wherein role claiming and infodumping are illegal. This is a considerable hindrance to the town's usual solving methodology, and that impacts the balance of any game in which it is implemented. Generally when this rule is active for an open setup, I favor a ratio more in the 3.75:1 or 4:1 range. This game was 23:6:1 --> 3.83:1 ratio (not accounting for two-way third party swing).

>>> Additionally, this specific game added numerous wrinkles which further challenge the town approach more than they challenge the mafia approach (even if both factions have to adapt, the hindrance is clearly pro-mafia). Consider days 2-4, when town had no previous game content to guide their hunt -- on top of a private voting mechanism that severely limits town cohesion and teamwork. It doesn't make solving impossible, but it certainly makes it harder.

>>> This means that on balance, town's ability to stop BOTH the 3P and the mafia from achieving inception was pretty limited (though in the first iteration they actually did that). The more reasonable goal was to stop one or the other.

>>> I also believe the game is probably more lopsided without the very unlucky poisoning of Evenstar. The timing was awful, and it blew up everything the mafia were doing. That was serious adversity.

~ Knowledge of the game at its onset strongly favored the mafia here as well. They had a clear objective which projected what was coming and enabled planning. Town had no such knowledge and had to adapt on the fly to everything we threw at them.

~ I am of the belief that overall across the Mafiascape online, most hosts simply make life too easy for mafia teams (in ornately-designed games emphasizing thematic creativity that don't lend themselves to balance like vanilla+ type setups). I design my games with that mindset, and even still the mafia have won more than they have lost (10-7 advantage on The Syndicate).

Do I believe this game was perfectly balanced? No. Overall, I would say it's probably more town-sided than it is mafia-sided. I don't think it's a mess in that regard though. I don't think it's worse than a 60-40 win chance from the word "Go" there, and I really think it's closer than that. It must be noted that the mafia are now 2-0 in this setup (and last time town was less hindered). All three factions had a real chance to win this game, and I think the performances of all three factions reflected that. The mafia team started very strong and then fell into very hard times later. The town trajectory was quite opposite. Radish had to overcome being outed as a killing third party, and he did that.

When this game was at the final six or so, I felt every faction had an approximately equal chance to win the game. And I felt that's where they deserved to be too. I am satisfied with the way the mechanics broke down. It may not seem entirely balanced to those who played it, and I understand the mindset. I am not going to argue. I think Sloonei and I got this one as right as we could though despite the immense difficulty of projecting how it would develop.

Literally unplayable. I disagree with all of your choices.

Posted: **Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:12 am**

[quote="Long Con" post_id=573868 time=1575252152 user_id=271]
Any game that comes down to one single altered choice swinging the victory to the other side is balanced in my books.
[/quote]

But seriously, I agree with this.

If all sides played reasonably well and it came down to lylo with 2 or less nontown players, that’s certified balanced imo.

The Syndicate

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I am the Elephant.

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juliets is the Best!

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