The Syndicate

To be honest, I've had more than a couple games, civilian and non, wherein I never completely read the thread. It wasn't necessary or important, and the pertinent stuff came during ISO reviews or the like anyway.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:36 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:26 am I have never lost as mafia because of post counts.

I HAVE won before because civilians value post counts.

There are exceptions to every rule. If you judge mafia teams in general by your own achievements, I think you're making a mistake. Also, I consider you to be a very skilled bad guy. I have never seen you detonate a post count list by tripling or quadrupling second place.

All I mean is that, if I were a civilian in this game, I would have said to hell with it.

Too much empty space and redundant arguments. Too much back and forth.

I only mean that I could see a civilian shutting down and and not being productive simply from lack of time.

Civilians flooding the thread didn't win this game is all I mean.

This just adds to my argument about catch up being bogus.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:36 am I only mean that I could see a civilian shutting down and and not being productive simply from lack of time.

I agree. That happened in this game to some extent. Enough civilians stayed the course though that the pool of slackers was so narrow that solving the game was simple.

Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should be active.

However, having two-three people gun the thread makes it hard for OTHER CIVILIANS to keep up.

As I see it:

Slow games are friendlier for people with less time. They're also friendlier for the bad guys. If I'm not a bad guy myself, fuck that.

I was the host, and I could not keep up in this game.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:42 am As I see it:

Slow games are friendlier for people with less time. They're also friendlier for the bad guys. If I'm not a bad guy myself, fuck that.

What I am saying is this:

If you really want to hear what civilians have to say about this that and the other...

then don't make 70 posts for them to read / listen to.

Most of the time, those back and forth exchanges are shit anyway.

I am not criticizing your behavior or anyone ele's. Rather, I'm considering how civilians who are less inclined to be engaged can be engaged.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:41 am Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should be active.

However, having two-three people gun the thread makes it hard for OTHER CIVILIANS to keep up.

This is true. I worry a bit about our terrible volume perhaps driving people away from games sometimes. But it's how I've always played the game and I enjoy playing the way I do.

I remember you hosting a special game where players could not exceed a certain post limit per phase around the time I joined the site and I thought that was a neat concept. I think it would be interesting to revive something like that from time to time so folks can play games without having to deal with so many loudmouths.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:46 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:42 am As I see it:

Slow games are friendlier for people with less time. They're also friendlier for the bad guys. If I'm not a bad guy myself, fuck that.

What I am saying is this:

If you really want to hear what civilians have to say about this that and the other...

then don't make 70 posts for them to read / listen to.

Most of the time, those back and forth exchanges are shit anyway.

I am not criticizing your behavior or anyone ele's. Rather, I'm considering how civilians who are less inclined to be engaged can be engaged.

I'm hereby starting a campaign against catching up. Anyone who values complete catch-ups is going to be prioritized for a lynch.

Sloonei, you are a funny fellow.

My concern has to do with new players. If they can't keep up, that doesn't mean they are BAD.

It means they can't keep up.

I'd like an honest discussion about that is all.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:54 am Sloonei, you are a funny fellow.

I've turned my signature into a campaign for what is right.

I thought the civilians were going to be hosed in this game. I thought RadicalFuzz and Made gave a genuine effort.

But yes, the civilians nailed it.

I actually agree with Epi on this...

Even if flooding the thread with content were a reliable way to beat mafia on a regular basis (it probably isn't), it still defeats the purpose of mafia, which is to play a fun and silly children's game on the web and take it way too seriously with a bunch of internet friends and acquaintances.

There's always going to be one or two players who can't keep up, but when the amount of players who aren't able to fully experience the game while living regular lives with 8 hour jobs etc is more than half of the living players then that might be an issue.

This game was just a really extreme example, I think. I have no responsibilities rn other than job searching and I was barely able to keep up most of the time. In a regular text based game I can just skim everything and pretend i read and understood it, so it's easier to pretend that I'm a good and effective mafia player.

RadicalFuzz has the most soothing voice I've ever heard. I think that was part of the reason I wanted to town read him so bad in the beginning.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 pm I'm also like really glad Eloh turned out to not be mafia cus now I don't have to feel bad for breaking the tie to lynch Marmot instead of her.

I wasn't mafia either you know.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:31 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:26 am I complained about Dunia and Jay earlier with their close to 2 hours of content each per day phase, but now.... I really do think creating an atmosphere where the mafia members couldn't catch up was at least somewhat instrumental in this victory.

It's one of the easiest ways to filter out mafia members in any game. Vocaroo made it even more pronounced.

The faster the pace, the more difficult the game for the bad guys. It's just the way the game works.

Sure, but it makes damn hard for someone who has to miss a couple days to catch up.

It really only works if you're civilian.

Regarding floods of content:

If JJJ and Dunya had been WRONG this game, misled the other townies by accident, there would have been nothing we could do about it. Not enough time to keep up and strongly influence the thread. Luckily, our loud townies were good townies, and those that weren't loud (Tink, Sloonei) used the game mechanics to full effect.

I, personally, do not feel like I had much effect at all this game. And I've usually got some force in the thread, especially in lategame. The volume of content in this game prevented that. I think other townies, especially the mislynched ones, would agree with me. The only reason I wasn't on the chopping block most of the time was because of Tink.

(Tink for MVP, btw. We still might have lost if it weren't for her narrowing the pool significantly. Without that, sloonei would not have been able to narrow the pool further with his thing.)

Now, in most text post games, I can keep up. I can read faster than any person I know can talk, even at full tilt. So content was especially pronounced in this game. I found myself skipping through posts to get the gist of things, or listening to the first five seconds of 6 minute posts before they devolved into hemming and hawing. And even then I only listened to maybe (in total) 15%-20% of this game's posts.

I have never been unable to keep up with a game before, and it's not as enjoyable as being actively involved and putting my voice in the thread to actually solve things.

I'm repeating myself a bit, but that's okay, because this is a text post. :P

TL;DR - Good game, lucky that town leaders were good hunters, I didn't do much, not as fun to not be involved.

you guys obv aren't familiar with high content mafia games, because take this game and multiply it by 10 high posters and a fast paced game is pretty normal. granted in vocaroo it's harder to catch up, but it's also impossible to ask people to change how they play in an already awkward setting that makes it even more awkward.

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:51 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:31 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:26 am I complained about Dunia and Jay earlier with their close to 2 hours of content each per day phase, but now.... I really do think creating an atmosphere where the mafia members couldn't catch up was at least somewhat instrumental in this victory.

It's one of the easiest ways to filter out mafia members in any game. Vocaroo made it even more pronounced.

The faster the pace, the more difficult the game for the bad guys. It's just the way the game works.

Sure, but it makes damn hard for someone who has to miss a couple days to catch up.

It really only works if you're civilian.

"Attaining a state of currency"

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:44 am you guys obv aren't familiar with high content mafia games, because take this game and multiply it by 10 high posters and a fast paced game is pretty normal. granted in vocaroo it's harder to catch up, but it's also impossible to ask people to change how they play in an already awkward setting that makes it even more awkward.

This game was already 51 hours of content with just two players putting in a normal effort level... If everyone stayed as active as they usually are then this game would have been the length of a 13 season long sitcom.

I never see it as "flooding the thread with content", but then I'm usually one of the ones on the flooding end. But, being in that position, I feel like there is a purpose to nearly every post that I make, and it's simply how I go about solving the game. Sometimes I find myself toeing the line of "posting for the sake of posting", and if I ever catch myself in this mode I delete what I was going to say and back out. That said, drowning out or scaring off other players is something I worry about and I don't doubt that it can happen. People have busy lives and this game is meant to be fun. If it becomes too much work it's just stressful, and stress is not fun. If there's anything that can be done to alleviate that, I'd like to know what it is.

I never have any desire to dictate how anyone else is going to play the game, but this problem is a big part of why I'm saying that the idea of "catching up" is counterproductive. If a player thinks they need to commit to taking in way more content than they can handle, of course the game is gonna overwhelm them and be terrible and no fun. "Catching up" is not a thing that needs to happen. You can get everything you need by treating the present moment you have in the thread as if it's the first hour of Day 1. Just dive right in and start playing the game right then and there. You'll pick up on the critical details much more quickly than if you tried to find it just by digging. This is exactly how I played this game after Day 2.

There's always going to be players leading in the post count, and it's probably going to be more noise than everyone can handle, and that's fine. The good thing about those types of players is that they're always around to talk about things. So if you feel like you don't know where to begin, they're likely to help you get started. I try to do that when I can, at least.

Having said all of that, I know you guys aren't talking about me in this game, and I know you don't have any ill-will towards the high-posting maniacs. But it's a playstyle and it works for some of us, and we have fun doing it. But I don't want anyone to not enjoy playing. I'm just trying to bridge whatever gap may exist between the different perspectives on this thing.

Eh, I can read faster than 20 people will generally post. I can't listen faster than 3 people can talk.

I think that's the real problem here.

And while I think this was a good game, it's something to consider. If you record for five minutes and come to 2 or 3 solutions, RERECORD! Put your thoughts in order, spit them out, and don't worry about seeming authentic in tone. Authentic thoughts will overpower that, and if anyone asks about your composure, tell them you're putting priority on other players' time.

Yes, I recognize that some of my early posts were rambly. I corrected that later, after ranting this at myself privately.

I'm not mad, I'm just putting this out there in case Vocaroo 3 happens. If the players can't handle it, I recommend a recording-length limit or a post/hour limit. Specifically for Vocaroo.

But that's my opinion. I've never failed to keep up (not catch up, KEEP up) with a game before. It destroys motivation.

I definitely feel you on that. This format brings a lot of new obstacles that we don't normally have to deal with. I love the vocaroo games, but they're experimental by nature.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:12 pm Eh, I can read faster than 20 people will generally post. I can't listen faster than 3 people can talk.

I think that's the real problem here.

And while I think this was a good game, it's something to consider. If you record for five minutes and come to 2 or 3 solutions, RERECORD! Put your thoughts in order, spit them out, and don't worry about seeming authentic in tone. Authentic thoughts will overpower that, and if anyone asks about your composure, tell them you're putting priority on other players' time.

Yes, I recognize that some of my early posts were rambly. I corrected that later, after ranting this at myself privately.

I'm not mad, I'm just putting this out there in case Vocaroo 3 happens. If the players can't handle it, I recommend a recording-length limit or a post/hour limit. Specifically for Vocaroo.

But that's my opinion. I've never failed to keep up (not catch up, KEEP up) with a game before. It destroys motivation.

I agree with all of this. I would definitely play different in vocaroo 3, if I were to join knowing what I know from this game. why r u so damn eloquent!?

*bathes in a tub of victory medals, half-listening to dissenters*

"don't worry about catching up when you can't" makes a lot of sense to me but I think it's also very situational as well.

In a regular game during a catch-up you can already kinda know what's important to read closely. If Jay makes 40 6 paragraph long posts on why a particular player looks bad to him and I already agree with it then I can save time by skimming it, since it's unlikely to effect anything, and if there's anything especially unusual about his case it may stick out during skimming, or get mentioned by another player. In a text game you can probably catch up in 2 or 3 hours no matter how far behind you are. Phenon mafia is probably like a 2 hour read.

There is no way to skim an audio post, you can jump around in it and listen for key words but you will always miss something, and even if you do listen to everything you're more likely to zone out while listening if there's a lot there, the result of this being an increased risk of missing out on those dank nugs of mafia behavior that we so desperately seek. This also applies to rereads. Returning to past posts was much harder in this game cus of lack of skimming and ctrl f powers.

I guess I kinda lost the point of this somewhere in there, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the important thing is to be conscientious of other players. If you notice that a significant number of players aren't able to stay caught up (and aren't already known for never being caught up) then just be mindful of it. Maybe slow down your post frequency or spend time creating summaries and vote analysis stuff.

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:30 pm

speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:12 pm Eh, I can read faster than 20 people will generally post. I can't listen faster than 3 people can talk.

I think that's the real problem here.

And while I think this was a good game, it's something to consider. If you record for five minutes and come to 2 or 3 solutions, RERECORD! Put your thoughts in order, spit them out, and don't worry about seeming authentic in tone. Authentic thoughts will overpower that, and if anyone asks about your composure, tell them you're putting priority on other players' time.

Yes, I recognize that some of my early posts were rambly. I corrected that later, after ranting this at myself privately.

I'm not mad, I'm just putting this out there in case Vocaroo 3 happens. If the players can't handle it, I recommend a recording-length limit or a post/hour limit. Specifically for Vocaroo.

But that's my opinion. I've never failed to keep up (not catch up, KEEP up) with a game before. It destroys motivation.

I agree with all of this. I would definitely play different in vocaroo 3, if I were to join knowing what I know from this game. why r u so damn eloquent!?

I'm an author and a preacher. Only explanation I have. But thank you for the compliment!

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:01 pm "don't worry about catching up when you can't" makes a lot of sense to me but I think it's also very situational as well.

In a regular game during a catch-up you can already kinda know what's important to read closely. If Jay makes 40 6 paragraph long posts on why a particular player looks bad to him and I already agree with it then I can save time by skimming it, since it's unlikely to effect anything, and if there's anything especially unusual about his case it may stick out during skimming, or get mentioned by another player. In a text game you can probably catch up in 2 or 3 hours no matter how far behind you are. Phenon mafia is probably like a 2 hour read.

There is no way to skim an audio post, you can jump around in it and listen for key words but you will always miss something, and even if you do listen to everything you're more likely to zone out while listening if there's a lot there, the result of this being an increased risk of missing out on those dank nugs of mafia behavior that we so desperately seek. This also applies to rereads. Returning to past posts was much harder in this game cus of lack of skimming and ctrl f powers.

I guess I kinda lost the point of this somewhere in there, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the important thing is to be conscientious of other players. If you notice that a significant number of players aren't able to stay caught up (and aren't already known for never being caught up) then just be mindful of it. Maybe slow down your post frequency or spend time creating summaries and vote analysis stuff.

I get this as well. The main disadvantage of this game was that skimming was completely impossible, and I think we'd all agree on that point. Perhaps a way around that in future attempts at a vocaroo game might be more specific identifications in link texts. Maybe something like a list of all players/subjects covered in a specific recording.

Sorry I couldn't play this one, all; I really was crazy excited for it. I underestimated just how busy I would get even before the new semester began (and it's even busier now) due to job applications, dissertation, and Daisy's sister being in town. Glad to see it went well though. I'd love to play Vocaroo 3 someday.

If there's a Vocaroo 3 I'll just host it. The people cannot handle my intensity.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:40 pm If there's a Vocaroo 3 I'll just host it. The people cannot handle my intensity.

You were probably 3rd worst, but that was just volume of posts. I remember several of your posts being terse.

Perhaps those were just the ones I finished, though.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:40 pm If there's a Vocaroo 3 I'll just host it. The people cannot handle my intensity.

I can be your co-host, cos clearly people here don't deserve us.

I've never seen people complain about game play and after the game events as much as the syndicate--true story. ya'll a bunch of babies.

or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

oh no

nah, ya'll are a bunch of babies.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

Truly, arguments about what makes the game fun or not fun -- those are meaningful and I will listen to them.

Good luck to anyone though trying to convince me that what dunya and I did in this game doesn't help civilians win the game. It isn't about voice versus text, it's about how the game of Mafia works on a message board forum.

i stopped posting for over half a day and there were 4 or 5 new posts? fuck that.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:30 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

Truly, arguments about what makes the game fun or not fun -- those are meaningful and I will listen to them.

Good luck to anyone though trying to convince me that what dunya and I did in this game doesn't help civilians win the game. It isn't about voice versus text, it's about how the game of Mafia works on a message board forum.

This right here.

I'm giving feedback on the format. How it could be made better, or what could be done to make the game more enjoyable. I'm not trying to complain. Sorry if it came out that way, to any of you garralous players.

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:15 pm nah, ya'll are a bunch of babies.

Babies with limited time.

I didn't mean to start a row on the subject, and I didn't mean to imply that JJJ and dunya weren't instrumental in winning the game. I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I look forward to the day when I am bad and have to face a civilian dunya and a civilian 3J. That will be fun.

I only meant that some people could find it impossible to play the game. Hell, the only way I, the friggin host (not mafia!) was able to stay current was because snow killed work for three days, because I can't listen to posts at work. No puedo escuchar en el trabajo.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:30 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

Truly, arguments about what makes the game fun or not fun -- those are meaningful and I will listen to them.

Good luck to anyone though trying to convince me that what dunya and I did in this game doesn't help civilians win the game. It isn't about voice versus text, it's about how the game of Mafia works on a message board forum.

Question: How would you have approached this game as a civilian if you had only thirty minutes a day to devote to it? Do you think you would get lynched far more easily than if you had more time?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:41 pm Question: How would you have approached this game as a civilian if you had only thirty minutes a day to devote to it? Do you think you would get lynched far more easily than if you had more time?

This depends upon how you're framing the question. I'll consider two scenarios, compared against scenario 0 (the real game we just played).

1.) I only have 30 minutes per day to devote to the game, but everything else is the same in a vacuum (implying that someone else is posting as frequently as I really did instead of me)
- I play it like Sloonei did, by operating purely with the material in front of me in real-time. I immediately forget about trying to catch up or keep up, because it is impossible and pointless.
- My chance of being lynched is greater than it was in the game we just played. The chance of the hypothetical other JJJ being lynched is lower in my stead. We break even.

2.) I only have 30 minutes per day to devote to the game, and nobody else is posting as frequently as I really did in my stead. The entire game moves more slowly in general.
- I am better able to keep up and play in the best analytic style I can manage. dunya's post count also plummets relatively speaking, because in reality many of our posts reflected each other, and if one of us significantly drops then the other logically follows.
- There is significantly less material to judge, other players have significantly less to talk about (because hundreds of posts are being removed from the equation), and my reads inherently become less concrete. Players don't have enough credit to be confidently reduced to the necessary POE size, and the chance of a civilian victory dramatically decreases. The mafia team can maintain the same general pace as any civilian if not eclipse that pace, and control of the thread is either shared with them or surrendered to them.

In #1, I am essentially Sloonei. My chance of being lynched is a bit greater than in Scenario 0, but my chance to win the game is close to equivalent to that of Scenario 0.

In #2, I am a half-assed, time-condensed JJJ in a slow game thread. My chance of being lynched is still a bit greater than in Scenario 0, and my chance to win the game is lower than in Scenarios 0 or 1.

Even that took three hours to read.

Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:35 pm i stopped posting for over half a day and there were 4 or 5 new posts? fuck that.

there were so few new posts during that time because people had already given up on catching up, but anyways that spare time allowed Sloonei and Made to be part of the main discussion again, it also gave us time to review past posts and focus on Made.

I was personally thankful to be able to use the time I would have spent listening to Dunia and Jay talking to each other for 2 or 3 hours to instead review older thread content and develop my own thoughts and look into players I didn't have reads on yet.

I think you two maybe don't have the full concept of how much you put into the thread each day because you didn't have to listen to your own posts.... imagine that each day after waking up along with all of your regular life stuff you also had to watch 2 full length movies and then afterwards write down your thoughts on those movies, and also you can't do anything else during the movies because multitasking will prevent you from absorbing any of the information so if you have any other hobbies you like to do other than mafia make sure to set those aside til the night phase when hopefully things will slow down, but probably not. Imagine having that experience but for 15 days in a row, and if you ever miss a day you have to make up for it the next day or else you're not playing the game optimally.

That's kind of how this game was, and that's why I'm not surprised only like 4 of us were able to stay caught up. I really don't mean any disrespect towards you or Jay about this, this is the first time any of us have played this kind of game, (except Jay who's been involved in vocaroo 4 times I guess?) so it's not like any of us knew the consequences of posting a lot would mean cutting players out of participating as much. Honestly if you two hadn't personally created an entire Disney Pixar film' length of content to read through once every six hours then I probably would have become one of the people everyone was complaining about posting too much

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:30 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm or maybe you guys could just.... take all the constructive feedback to heart and learn from it

Truly, arguments about what makes the game fun or not fun -- those are meaningful and I will listen to them.

Good luck to anyone though trying to convince me that what dunya and I did in this game doesn't help civilians win the game. It isn't about voice versus text, it's about how the game of Mafia works on a message board forum.

but who cares that much about winning, really? winning is only a consequence of the game, not the goal. like.... sure winning is great, but if you play mafia only to win then you'll only get to have fun half of the time.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:37 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:35 pm i stopped posting for over half a day and there were 4 or 5 new posts? fuck that.

there were so few new posts during that time because people had already given up on catching up, but anyways that spare time allowed Sloonei and Made to be part of the main discussion again, it also gave us time to review past posts and focus on Made.

Now I gotta agree here. I loved when nobody was posting, at least during a night phase or a less important time than dayend. I was listening to stuff during that time.