Mountain Mafia [END]

[Long Con]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Was I going around in circles or tunnelling? These mixed metaphors are just making me shake my head.

nevermind I found it.

So, was I using circular logic?

[dunya]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Was I going around in circles or tunnelling? These mixed metaphors are just making me shake my head.

BOTH. You were tunneling and refused to do anything else, despite him counterclaiming your accusations and going back and forth, and back and forth. To go around in circles is basically talk about Epi all day/night long without achieving anything new. I wasted a lot of effort on you and Epi's bromance.

[dunya]

So, was I using circular logic?

No. Not that I can see, anyway. Maybe Epi confused circular logic with going around in circles.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I can see an arguement to be made for Sloonei circling Epi. Indeed, DDL accused Epi of fence sitting and voted for him on D1.

[Long Con]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Was I going around in circles or tunnelling? These mixed metaphors are just making me shake my head.

BOTH. You were tunneling and refused to do anything else

FALSE. I also discussed other players and interactions.

, despite him counterclaiming your accusations and going back and forth, and back and forth.

MISLEADING. I didn't post "despite" his counterclaims, I posting BECAUSE his counterclaims were all so bullshitty. Like saying that I knew Mesk and bob were Civvies, or saying that I claimed he "magically chose" who would respond to his Bob Dylan thing.

If I accuse you of something, and all you have to counter it are ridiculous arguments, then it's going to make me suspect you more. Every time. I don't really understand why most of the thread just smile and nod when reading some of this crap, but hey, everyone has to play their own way.

If I didn't have to laboriously point that kind of stuff out, then there wouldn't have been so much focus. Don't blame me. It's like blaming outraged Native Americans for getting upset about Trump's "Pocahontas" comment. Like, "shut up you guys, you're going around in circles and tunnelling about this!"

To go around in circles is basically talk about Epi all day/night long without achieving anything new. I wasted a lot of effort on you and Epi's bromance.

Just ignore my posts then, if that's how you feel. It's a Syndicate tradition.

[Elohcin]

I've enjoyed reading dunya's catch up posts.

I want to address mesk's play. Who was it that said they had played with her as civ before and she was really fierce? She seems so genuine to me, but that info doesn't allign with her behavior. I think she needs to be up for discussion today.

Linki...by the way... I can never address linki because on my phone, the left side of linki gets cut off for some reason. Just thought I'd share.

I don't think her absence for 6 days is indicative of her alignment. That's what I would like to sway people away from.
Yes, as town, a wrongly accused town, she gets very vocal and aggressively defensive. She hasn't been on the frying pan though, indeed, she hasn't even been on the forum for 6 days so....we can't say she's scum because she's not here.

This is oddly defensive, imo.

Dunya replaced in awesomely with great effort. What if she is too good to be true? What if there have been no night kills because of a quiet mafia and two of them are mesk and now dunya? Just really spitting this out real quick before I go watch tv with the family. I'm not fully caught up so tell me if I'm insane.

You're saying mafia was a blank space? Maybe. But I'd like some names.

Oh come on this was gold

Only because I know what it's like to make a joke that I find hilarious and no one else says a thing...

[Elohcin]

And now I have this song in my head. Thank you.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Initial vultures comment was made much earlier than I remember. Nutella had made only one post at the time, something to the tune of "I agree with Sloonei (who was considering LC's case on Epi)." Reducing Sloonei posts to pre-vulture comment also colors Sloonei's general figure 8 around the thread as a circle around Epi. It also reduces LC's mostly full court press to one initial push.

Revising my thoughts to be: The vultures comment was okay and consistent with DDL's later vote for Sloonei. I don't like that it took being asked several times for DDL to answer who he was talking about. Gives room for revisionist reads. I also don't like Eloh agreeing with it and then revising her statement to be not actually agreeing with it.

Still. Not nearly as damning as previously thought.

[speedchuck]

And now I have this song in my head. Thank you.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I could maybe townread DDL, assume an inactive baddie with Dunya and maybe Speed (maybe Bob, maybe Epi).

[Long Con]

I'm more into Alt Rock kind of stuff so I didn't get the joke... but I did just do some research and found out Taylor Swift has a song called 'Blank Space'. So, I didn't laugh, but I did learn. That's good too.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I don't really remember Sloonei's case on Bob except that it was convincing at the time.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]Marmot[/mention]

Mesk has not posted in 6 days. Dom has not posted in 9. Glornamehere has not posted at all.

The front page lists two replacement players.

Can we sub Bird and Mal in for two of these slots?

[speedchuck]

I'm more into Alt Rock kind of stuff so I didn't get the joke... but I did just do some research and found out Taylor Swift has a song called 'Blank Space'. So, I didn't laugh, but I did learn. That's good too.

I mean, it wasn't so much a joke. I like this version of the song. People were referencing the original, so I posted it.

Actual content is forthcoming soon, I promise guys.

[speedchuck]

SOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNN

colonialbob - BAD
I'll be honest. I liked Sloonei's case. I never got good vibes from bob, and sloonei's case (right around the time I decided sloon was town) really cinched the read. Like with Kyle, I'd rather read through before the lynch.

Dom - BAD?
Who?
"Ya'll talk too much"
I agree, but dang. Also this isn't abnormal for a game on the syndicate that's had a week of 19 players. Dom has been on this site, and while he's displayed this sentiment before, I think he's at least put forward some reads off of the first few pages when not caught up, right? He could do something.
Not sure whether that's scum indicative, but lurkers bother me.

Dragon D. Luffy - GOOD
DDL does have some bad things going for him. He's not entirely consistent, and is playing fast and loose. But hey, same here. Most importantly, his tone is very genuine in most all of his posts. That's all I have without further rereading, and I'm not ISOing until someone bloody dies in this game.

DrWilgy - GOOD

dunya - GOOD
Dunya came into the thread with fire. I think a strong part of my scum spritread from earlier was his inactivity and passivity. Dunya has shown none of that. Should Sprit's read carry over? Maybe.
But let's look at some good points.
1. I've seen general indication that Dunya is treating everyone equally. I haven't seen him buddy toward anyone, no idea who he could be aligned to.
2. As of post 2021, and the page around it, Dunya seems to not know how many mafia there are. I don't think Dunya is the type to fake that for town points. Dunya is an effort maker. I think this is genuine, and matches with him not knowing about K2's role. Dunya skimmed the rolelist, and I think he genuinely doesn't know there are four scum.
3. Dunya really pushed the game into talking again. If he were scum, there are ways he could come in the thread and participate without pushing things forward. GTH reads for example. :P
4. Townie gut vibes. Sorry if you don't feel them.

Elohcin - GOOD

Epignosis - BAD?
Epi's defense against LC was shaky at times, but otherwise I haven't had much reason to suspect Epi. However, I also expect Epi to be a more driving force in games. (this applies to both scum and mafia epi.)
Tinfoil LC Epi alignment (ugh, pls no)
Maybe LC got lucky with his first accusation, even if it was totes bogus?
The reason that this read is still questionable is that all of my reasons for it to be bad don't mesh. I could see Epi as bad. But I don't think it's overwhelmingly likely. In fact, I had his read at "Good?" until I thought about Night Vale. Meta-wise, I could suspect Epi, and I don't want LC's false suspicion to keep me from giving this a fair shake. This read is slightly south of null.

insertnamehere - ???
No posts.

Jackofhearts2005 - EGH
Jack has been super present all game. I feel like he's weighed in on everything in the thread. Why is it that I have trouble figuring out where his head is at most of the time? Constantly shifting. Despite my experience in Pirates, I don't have a good metaread on scumjack. This being an extended D1, I feel like town would be having more trouble with reads than mafia (for obvious reasons). Mafia players might unnaturally narrow down their choices as time goes on (based on what they usually do), while town can't. Jack's ever-changing reads are either a sign of genuine town unsurety or mafia not wanting to commit so early. Depends on how much Jack thinks ahead.
I DO know Jack can really hit the thread hard with a high number of posts as scum.
I'm going to lean very, very light town, depite everything I may have said earlier. I'm tone reading and metareading and playstyle reading, like with most everyone else in this list. Please, convince me one way or another, since the entire fricking game seems to be scumreading Jack. I could go either way.

JaggedJimmyJay - EGH
JJJ is never scum.
No, but really, I don't know what he'd be like as scum. If he's leading, and leading well, mafia will probably kill him and take care of things for us. If they start killing other leaders and JJJ takes control of the game, wipe him.
Also, the GTH reads. First time I saw them was MP07 doing them as scum. Maybe that poisoned me. But they look like an easy way to assert yourself as a leader, spam the thread with crap, make some generalizations, and then . . . nothing? But according to the lists, they're regularly done, so whatever.
Not willing to give out a townread here yet, though. Seems too easy.

Kylemii - BAD
Kyle being scum would depend on Mesk/Lasagne being good, I think. But when Kyle pops in and goes after Mesk, I can'thelp but feel that it's opportunistic. And maybe it's my lack of ISOs, but I don't think that's inconsistent with Kyle's style of play thus far. And then most of today's content has been a meta argument with Dunya that nobody else can follow, and it rubbed me the wrong way. I also had a light scumread on Kylemii last week. So yeah, Imma call it. Despite what I said in one of these other reads, I'll probably ISO someone before directly agreeing to a lynch, but Kyle is a contender.

Long Con - EGH
I know I said that scum LC wouldn't go after Epi like he did on D1. I know I said that. But what if he's pulling a long con? Hear me out here.
Even if Epi is town, whenever LC goes after Epi, Epi doesn't suspect him. Sometimes LC gets lynched by other people, sometimes not. This time the case was worse than normal, so everyone ended up brushing it off. LC got townie points for being misguided and gutsy, and we moved on. I would have been fine with that.
But then LC coasted.
Maybe it's just me not ISOing or missing some of LC's posts, but I don't feel like he's had much to add since D1. That bothers me. Town LC isn't a coaster. And scum LC, based on past experience, could totally run a town meta gambit on Epi, especially if the case is stupid enough that it will fall apart on its own.
I'm aware that this is tinfoil. But it genuinely bothers me, again, because of LC's actions since the argument, LC's approach to the argument (I don't recall him campaigning for Epi lynch as much as arguing with him), the way the argument cooled down, and the (purposefully?) shaky grounds for the suspicion. I don't like it.

Mesk514 - EGH
Conundrum here. Mesk gave me good vibes when in the thread based on tone. If she was actually high, especially so. Displays the spontanaets that I like to see from town.
But then mesk disappeared. And somebody pointed out that the posts weren't as original, interesting, decisive, or forward as they could have been. Leaving me in a case where I want to believe mesk is town, but I'm not so sure. I think mesk is anti-aligned with Kylemii, 70%.

nutella - GOOD
Dat D1 maybe mech clear. I'm getting used to non-Phenon town!nutella, and this feels like it. Uncertain, snarky, striving, not a super prevalent poster but not a lurker.

Quin - EGH
I usually read quin the opposite of what everyone else does, and end up being right. I townread him in Phenon. Here . . . I want to say he's town, but he's done nothing to reeeaaalllyy convince me yet. Maybe if I ISO'd him. Hold up.
D1 logic hurts my head, but I like the way he approached Epi and voted him, asking for others to explain. If scum, probably scum with LC for gambithard play.
Ah, I remember why I said Quin's read is consistent with his CC123 performance. He's spontaneous. It doesn't look, at least, like he's too worried about how he's being percieved.
Even when people say they suspect him, and he asks them why, I get the feeling he's trying to give them opportunity to slip and fall rather than defend himself. He's a content creator, though mostly creating other people's content. I'd give Quin a supah-light townread, but wouldn't be super surprised to find him scum. Nightkill/lynch result analysis should clear this one up (please let today's lynch work).

sig - GOOD?
Actually, upon looking at Sig's posts, I get "absent but trying." Even the few posts he's put in have names reads, some of which were original to him (I think). Putting in OG content, legit excuse of the holidays keeping him away. Not too bad.
[mention]sig[/mention] I wouldn't worry about trying to catch up. Everything will change as soon as a kill/lynch happens anyway. Get in here when you can and pick five random pages and gutread out of them, whatever you have time for.

Sloonei - SUPAHTOWN
Aside from the maybe mechanical clear, Sloon still convinced me from the start of D2 or N2 (forget which) that he was town with a slew of analysis posts that looked exactly like town sloon.

Spacedaisy - TOWN
Daisy seems more comfortable in her alignment than normal, more cool, more collected. Could point either way, but I wanted to point that out. Otherwise, I've seen nothing to complain about from Daisy. She's been a solid town player.

[speedchuck]

There's my head, if anyone wants to pick it.

[Sloonei]

I'm busy for the next couple days so expect me to be a bit dormant in the thread. I'll follow along as best I can and vote accordingly.
Cbob and Jack are the two most substantial suspects I have and I encourage investigation of them. Speedchuck is not a suspect and I discourage lynching him right now, but I'm not gonna tel y'all not to discuss him.
If no clear consensus is reached, I think lynching a low poster is acceptable today. But that's a critical "if".

[colonialbob]

vote jack
because that's where my heads at. Kinda feeling a speed/jack pair.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

True there might be other vote things going on, but I feel like neither Jack nor sloonie would make sense for the mafia team to target with their minus 1. Unless we're all way off with mafia members.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Some of us think that Jack could well be a mafia member who was protected by Sutter Buttes. Why are you discounting this possibility out of hand?

Can you explain how this transpired given the result?

I mean it's a night power, right? So the scum team anticipated jack getting some votes and gave him minus one. He would have been one vote ahead of sloonei but this would bring it back to a tie, which was randomly flipped to sloonei who is one of the civ roles who would survive the lynch.

That's...more premises than I would care to accept.

The underlined conclusion doesn't require any of the previous premises to be true. Sloonei would have no idea what the vote tally was if he stopped the lynch, and whether the votes were manipulated doesn't matter if he is automatically safe from one death, because there was a no lynch, and the mafia can't stop a lynch regardless of the tally.

My view is that Sloonei stopped the lynch. He was not at all passionate about defending himself or making a fuss to get people to vote elsewhere. He called it "a waste of time." If you are automatically safe from one death, your job isn't to save yourself from a lynch, but to eat a Night kill (thereby protecting the other civilians). Had Sloonei had that responsibility, I believe we would have witnessed more urgency and fire. We witnessed none.

This is under the assumption that Sloonei's emotions reflect a desire to always play the game optimally.

Maybe he was annoyed that the game wasn't being played optimally, but not particulary desperated about it.

[Sloonei]

True there might be other vote things going on, but I feel like neither Jack nor sloonie would make sense for the mafia team to target with their minus 1. Unless we're all way off with mafia members.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Some of us think that Jack could well be a mafia member who was protected by Sutter Buttes. Why are you discounting this possibility out of hand?

Can you explain how this transpired given the result?

I mean it's a night power, right? So the scum team anticipated jack getting some votes and gave him minus one. He would have been one vote ahead of sloonei but this would bring it back to a tie, which was randomly flipped to sloonei who is one of the civ roles who would survive the lynch.

That's...more premises than I would care to accept.

The underlined conclusion doesn't require any of the previous premises to be true. Sloonei would have no idea what the vote tally was if he stopped the lynch, and whether the votes were manipulated doesn't matter if he is automatically safe from one death, because there was a no lynch, and the mafia can't stop a lynch regardless of the tally.

My view is that Sloonei stopped the lynch. He was not at all passionate about defending himself or making a fuss to get people to vote elsewhere. He called it "a waste of time." If you are automatically safe from one death, your job isn't to save yourself from a lynch, but to eat a Night kill (thereby protecting the other civilians). Had Sloonei had that responsibility, I believe we would have witnessed more urgency and fire. We witnessed none.

This is under the assumption that Sloonei's emotions reflect a desire to always play the game optimally.

Maybe he was annoyed that the game wasn't being played optimally, but not particulary desperated about it.

I don't know what this means, but I'd never take any annoyance out on the thread like that. I would say, "I'm annoyed. This is annoying."

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think I'm gonna skip from Page 39 until the end of the Night. Otherwise I'll probably procrastine this game for days.

If there is anything so important during this time you want me to look at, let me know.

We need info ffs.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Also I skimmed most of the previous pages too, so add them to the list.

[DrWilgy]

Quick comment regarding the GTH exercise.

For everyokne that GTH'd me good. Why do you think I'm good? Under what scenarios do you find that I'm scummy? Would you say that you are mpre of a player that finds people innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent?

@elochin I'm still curious as to why you stated my comment about being able to read Daisy stuck out to you as scummy before my further explanation. What about that comment caused a scum read? Am I not allowed to be bad at reading someone?

@JoH, I'll get back to you. I've come to a point where I'm aware of my tunneling and I need to review others before I continue to bark at you. What I find interesting outside of our back and forth is your baddie read of me. What prompted this read exactly?

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]DrWilgy[/mention]

I know I'm town. You seem quite focused on me as your only hot scumread. Therefore, I don't see you going after any baddies.

Additionally, I am used to you being supatown (in calling out baddies) and/or getting yourself lynched early. I don't see either of those things. I don't remember what bad Wilgy looks like if I've met him but you don't look like good Wilgy to me atm.

There's also all the recent unsubstantiated town reads on you. Easy for baddies to try to keep that "Wilgy is town amiright?" momentum going if you're bad.

[Sloonei]

At this stage i'll need to be convinced that colonialbob is town in order for me not to vote for him. Anyone got an argument?

There are too many suspicious players for Bob to be bad. Also, even when I disagree with him, I can kinda see where he's coming from.

I feel the opposite. There aren't enough genuinely suspicious players, so he occupies my top spot without much real competition. There are a lot of difficult-to-read players, however, and that is complicating matters.

Pff. You and Bob are the most difficult to read players for me period, let alone in this game. (I tell myself I know how to read you now but idk if that's true.)

Tell me about your Wilgy, DDL, Mesk and Speed reads.

This post tasted a bit like player salad, and there was no follow up from jack and I didn't see a clear direction that he was going in when he made it.

Jack, why did you ask me about these names?

[dunya]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Was I going around in circles or tunnelling? These mixed metaphors are just making me shake my head.

BOTH. You were tunneling and refused to do anything else

FALSE. I also discussed other players and interactions.

you did, as a sideline, but my post was meant to amplify the fact that your main objective and clear focus was on Epi. Please tell me I'm wrong.

, despite him counterclaiming your accusations and going back and forth, and back and forth.

MISLEADING. I didn't post "despite" his counterclaims, I posting BECAUSE his counterclaims were all so bullshitty. Like saying that I knew Mesk and bob were Civvies, or saying that I claimed he "magically chose" who would respond to his Bob Dylan thing.

If I accuse you of something, and all you have to counter it are ridiculous arguments, then it's going to make me suspect you more. Every time. I don't really understand why most of the thread just smile and nod when reading some of this crap, but hey, everyone has to play their own way.

One could argue here that your accusations were ridiculous in the first place. The way I saw this pan out was Epi made a tongueincheek comment after Bob played along with him. I've done many of these before. Someone makes a hilarious post on Day 1, ok dude, I won't look your way on Day 1, there's three other anti town players I can be concentrating on so why not. You really blew that one way out of proportion by calling it buddying on Day 1. Do you think if there was a solid case against Bob, Epi would have turned the other cheek? I mean, let's be real.

Mesk -- I saw what Epi was seeing. Is it groundbreaking and completely ethical and fool proof? No. But is any Day 1 lynch 100% fool proof? No. His response to narrowing his suspect pool on the grounds of a townie-ping he got from Mesk was not at all "ridiculous". You completely dismissing it was rather over the top though.

Again, I do view you as townie, and as such, I really think you're playing a dangerous game here. If Epi was lynched and he flipped town against your better judgement, would you have done an "ooopsie, this happens every game, sorry guyzzzz but Epi is soooo scummy".

If I didn't have to laboriously point that kind of stuff out, then there wouldn't have been so much focus. Don't blame me. It's like blaming outraged Native Americans for getting upset about Trump's "Pocahontas" comment. Like, "shut up you guys, you're going around in circles and tunnelling about this!"

I find your comparison here hilarious and very reflective of the kind of player you are.

To go around in circles is basically talk about Epi all day/night long without achieving anything new. I wasted a lot of effort on you and Epi's bromance.

Just ignore my posts then, if that's how you feel. It's a Syndicate tradition.

don't be salty.

You do realize you've done this a lot in the past (I mean, I've witnessed it several times and I haven't even played 5 games on this forum) and it was misdirected in the past, right? How many times have you successfully targeted a scum based on Day 0+ tunneling? How many times was it misguided?

I've done things like go after a player that everyone else saw as town, but at least I've been honest with myself and the thread, that it's intuition-based and I didn't have any solid ground to stand on. Your grounded stubbornness, on the other hand, is pretty dangerous to town imo. No one should be that sure of themselves at this point, except scummers when they call another player townie.

also sorry, I speak four languages and am a master of none. Instead of shaking your head or face palming at my mistakes, perhaps you could tell me what you think I misconstrued so it doesn't happen again. No sarcasm intended.

[dunya]

I think I'm gonna skip from Page 39 until the end of the Night. Otherwise I'll probably procrastine this game for days.

If there is anything so important during this time you want me to look at, let me know.

We need info ffs.

basically all of my contributions fall under those pages so if you want to get a better read on me, perhaps you can ISO me and skim through my posts (I tend to quote posts I'm referencing usually so I am easy to follow I think).

[dunya]

[mention]speedchuck[/mention], not that it makes a huge difference, but I am actually a "she". Going through your post now.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Sloonei, those were the players we disagreed on where I was mostly confident in my reads. (Including my nonread of Mesk)

We disagreed on Epi and Bob but those were two of my tougher townreads so I could get someone scumreading them.

[speedchuck]

@speedchuck, not that it makes a huge difference, but I am actually a "she". Going through your post now.

I knew that. I say it under your avatar and made note of it. And then it completely slipped past me.

[mention]Quin[/mention] That's an interesting vote on a player I have trouble reading most of the time. Can I get a summary of why?

[dunya]

I could maybe townread DDL, assume an inactive baddie with Dunya and maybe Speed (maybe Bob, maybe Epi).

Doesn't this go against everything you preach, though?

Or here, let me try something.

I've seen this arguement before and while it isn't necessarily wrong, I hate it.

It's essentially "an inactive user must be scum, because why not?"


I have seen you mention my name a couple times now, if not more, and I think with all the posts I have contributed this last day I am allowed to expect some sort of basis for your scum read of me please.

[dunya]

2. As of post 2021, and the page around it, Dunya seems to not know how many mafia there are. I don't think Dunya is the type to fake that for town points. Dunya is an effort maker. I think this is genuine, and matches with him not knowing about K2's role. Dunya skimmed the rolelist, and I think he genuinely doesn't know there are four scum.

I have actually read them all now in great detail, but I think I've played in too many games with 3 scummers lately. Apologies. And thank you for graciously pointing out my mistake.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Alright so I'm gonna go ahead and officially call out @Mesk514

I recently had the privilege of seeing how a civvie Mesk in Instant Mafia IV and I would describe her as.... loud, aggressive, and almost adversarial at times. In this game she has accused basically no one and her most tangible action was buddying up to me.

I understand that this has been a fast moving game at times and I was laying off for a while since i'd never seen her actually play before and maybe she is just usually bad at keeping up, but now I have and I know that's not necessarily the case. I know that a civvie Mesk is capable of an activity level that pushes the thread forward and I'm curious why we're not seeing that here.

I think such a radical difference in playstyle is probably more likely to be related to different site or real life problems than alignment. You don't do a 180° in playstyle when you are playing bad instead of civ. Not like that.

[Epignosis]

Some thoughts from the GTH reads:

~ The recurring meme with these things has been that the player to give the most civilian reads has tended to be mafia-aligned at a more-than-random rate. In this instance the culprits are Colonel Bob by count and Jack by percentage. Before I proceed with this notion though, I want to look back at the numerous other GTH charts I have saved on this laptop. This trend was one I noticed in the earlier stages of running this exercise, and I am not certain whether it has held overall. It's something that should be easy to check.

I checked all the GTH reads I have on my laptop and could find/remember elsewhere. Quickly:

Spoiler: show

2015 Mafia Championship Game 2 on 2+2 The OG GTH reads
Ryker names most civilians - Mafia

Talking Heads
MacDougall names most civilians - Mafia

Turf Wars
Quin names most civilians - Civilian

Hydra game on MU 2016
StoatTime names most civilians - Civilian

Mad Max
motel room and JJJ tied for most civilians named - Civilian and Civilian

RYM #92
JJJ names most civilians - Mafia

Personality Cafe game
No mafia members participated, so a Civilian had the lead.

Pirate Mafia
MovingPictures07 names most civilians - Mafia

Battlestar Galactica
S~V~S names most civilians - Mafia

Economics
Bass and JJJ tied for most civilians named - Mafia and Civilian respectively

I'm not going to bother citing my sources here unless someone actually cares. It's easy to find if so.

Twelve players are named here, and six of them were mafia. That's 50%, which is technically "more than random", but not by a significant degree and with a small sample size. It can also be viewed as "in six of ten games, a mafioso led or tied for the lead in civilians named". The difference is probably more semantic than meaningful.

I won't entirely stick the fork in this idea long-term, but I don't think it's a convincing condemnation of Colonel Bob or Jack in this game.

Pardon me if I am misinterpreting your interpretation of your data, but wouldn't a 50% rate be significant given that the population of each instance is composed of less than 40% mafia?

[Epignosis]

I think hunting for a mafia team of three and hunting for a rogue are vastly different activities, and there's no baddie team of four. There is a baddie team of 3 and a second lonely baddie team of 1. A scum-read is easier than a rogue-read.

I don't know why you think this. The big mountain win condition doesn't say they need the independent dead to win. Therefore the independent isn't bad. If Olympus Mons is LMS (Last Mountain Standing), then it would be contrary to the stated win condition on page one.

[Epignosis]

I told you I wasn't going to explain things to you that you already know.

You have a terrible habit of assuming your interpretation of a sentence or phrase is gospel.

Anyone is an easy lynch Day 1. That's because many people take the mindset that Day 1 is a crapshoot, and that the real utility of Day 1 is the acquisition of information. Any lynch will provide that.

You are taking my "easy lynch" comment to mean that I am referring to Epignosis being a an easy lynch, which is your mistake. If Day 1 is a guessing game, then lazily piling up votes on me is an easy thing to do. Saying I meant that I am an easy lynch in general is your mistake. When people pile up votes on anyone for stupid reasons (or no reason at all), it makes for a quick and easy lynch. Anybody could be that.

[dunya]

I am placing a tentative vote on Jack for now. There are too many inconsistencies, too many loose ends, a few unanswered questions, strange wordings (mislynch instead of lynch re: Epi, really bugged me) so for now, he remains my strongest scum read which is disappointing to me in another way because his activity levels are actually much higher and more spontaneous than he was as a replacement in the Pirates game where he was scum, so he doesn't fall under the same meta.

I haven't finished catching up yet (I'm on pg 25 out of 40 so I have 15 pages more to go). It's still very early. Let's see how I feel a little later.

[Epignosis]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Spoiler: show

colonialbob, Mesk, and Sloonei are good because Epignosis is buddying / intimidating them
Epignosis is bad because he is buddying / intimidating colonialbob, Mesk, Sloonei

As circular as a fake boob.

[Long Con]

No, circular logic is logic that requires a belief that it's right in order to prove that it's right. Like "God exists because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God, and thus is the truth."

Ah ok, circular logic. I understand now. Did Epi explain how your argument was circular? Because I don't see it. I don't see how it was and I also did not see his reasoning.

I did see you going around in circles, though.

Was I going around in circles or tunnelling? These mixed metaphors are just making me shake my head.

BOTH. You were tunneling and refused to do anything else

FALSE. I also discussed other players and interactions.

you did, as a sideline, but my post was meant to amplify the fact that your main objective and clear focus was on Epi. Please tell me I'm wrong.

You were wrong when you said that I refused to do anything else. You were right when you said my main objective on Day 1 was Epi. I don't think hyperbole is necessary.

, despite him counterclaiming your accusations and going back and forth, and back and forth.

MISLEADING. I didn't post "despite" his counterclaims, I posting BECAUSE his counterclaims were all so bullshitty. Like saying that I knew Mesk and bob were Civvies, or saying that I claimed he "magically chose" who would respond to his Bob Dylan thing.

If I accuse you of something, and all you have to counter it are ridiculous arguments, then it's going to make me suspect you more. Every time. I don't really understand why most of the thread just smile and nod when reading some of this crap, but hey, everyone has to play their own way.

One could argue here that your accusations were ridiculous in the first place.

One could, but the proper response to an argument that one thinks is ridiculous should be to say "That's ridiculous, and here's why...", not to invent ridiculous counterarguments. The ridiculous counterarguments were the main reason for my focus on the subject. If Epignosis, or you, or anyone else didn't like the way that played out, there's a really good piece of advice for you. Inventing several way-more-ridiculous counterarguments is not useful, and wastes time.

Unless causing distractions and wasting time is useful to one's plans in whatever alignment one might be, of course. I might try to use that next time I'm bad, actually, I think it can be pretty effective.

The way I saw this pan out was Epi made a tongueincheek comment after Bob played along with him. I've done many of these before. Someone makes a hilarious post on Day 1, ok dude, I won't look your way on Day 1, there's three other anti town players I can be concentrating on so why not. You really blew that one way out of proportion by calling it buddying on Day 1. Do you think if there was a solid case against Bob, Epi would have turned the other cheek? I mean, let's be real.

I'm all too real. No, I don't think that Epi would shy away from a solid case on a Civvie he has buddied at some point. I don't think that's how buddying works - it's not a vow to protect and save the player you're buddying, it's a subtle buildup of showing a similar mindset, cultivating that into a mutual Civ acknowledgement on some level.

Mesk -- I saw what Epi was seeing. Is it groundbreaking and completely ethical and fool proof? No. But is any Day 1 lynch 100% fool proof? No. His response to narrowing his suspect pool on the grounds of a townie-ping he got from Mesk was not at all "ridiculous". You completely dismissing it was rather over the top though.

Sounded fake to me, so I pursued it. Don't conflate my dogged debunking of Epi's ridiculous counterarguments with an insistence that this was a sure thing.

Again, I do view you as townie, and as such, I really think you're playing a dangerous game here. If Epi was lynched and he flipped town against your better judgement, would you have done an "ooopsie, this happens every game, sorry guyzzzz but Epi is soooo scummy".

Danger is my middle name. If Epi is lynched and he flips bad against your better judgement, will you praise my instincts, or brush it off as a lucky break? We don't need to play this What If game, really, since this happens every game. Let's find one where I got Civ Epi lynched!

If I didn't have to laboriously point that kind of stuff out, then there wouldn't have been so much focus. Don't blame me. It's like blaming outraged Native Americans for getting upset about Trump's "Pocahontas" comment. Like, "shut up you guys, you're going around in circles and tunnelling about this!"

I find your comparison here hilarious and very reflective of the kind of player you are.

Well I would hope so.

To go around in circles is basically talk about Epi all day/night long without achieving anything new. I wasted a lot of effort on you and Epi's bromance.

Just ignore my posts then, if that's how you feel. It's a Syndicate tradition.

don't be salty.

I'm not salty anymore, these days it just provides me with bewildered amusement.

You do realize you've done this a lot in the past (I mean, I've witnessed it several times and I haven't even played 5 games on this forum) and it was misdirected in the past, right? How many times have you successfully targeted a scum based on Day 0+ tunneling? How many times was it misguided?

Pirates was pretty recent, and it went really well for me. Too well, really, they killed me early. Twice. Targeted me Night 1, and then Night 2 again when I proved to be too awesome to kill the first time.

I've done things like go after a player that everyone else saw as town, but at least I've been honest with myself and the thread, that it's intuition-based and I didn't have any solid ground to stand on. Your grounded stubbornness, on the other hand, is pretty dangerous to town imo. No one should be that sure of themselves at this point, except scummers when they call another player townie.

That is a reasonable opinion.

There are facets to my gameplay that you are not considering, ones you are not aware of, so you couldn't consider them. I don't really want to peel away the layers and expose my every strategy here, because the game's not over.

also sorry, I speak four languages and am a master of none. Instead of shaking your head or face palming at my mistakes, perhaps you could tell me what you think I misconstrued so it doesn't happen again. No sarcasm intended.

I thought I was pretty clear if there were any instances that I thought you misconstrued something. Like giving a Circular Logic example, for instance. If there's somewhere I've failed to do that, let me knwo and I'll correct my oversight.

[Marmot]

@Marmot

Mesk has not posted in 6 days. Dom has not posted in 9. Glornamehere has not posted at all.

The front page lists two replacement players.

Can we sub Bird and Mal in for two of these slots?

I'll do what I can. Haven't heard back from birdwithteeth yet.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I told you I wasn't going to explain things to you that you already know.

You have a terrible habit of assuming your interpretation of a sentence or phrase is gospel.

Anyone is an easy lynch Day 1. That's because many people take the mindset that Day 1 is a crapshoot, and that the real utility of Day 1 is the acquisition of information. Any lynch will provide that.

You are taking my "easy lynch" comment to mean that I am referring to Epignosis being a an easy lynch, which is your mistake. If Day 1 is a guessing game, then lazily piling up votes on me is an easy thing to do. Saying I meant that I am an easy lynch in general is your mistake. When people pile up votes on anyone for stupid reasons (or no reason at all), it makes for a quick and easy lynch. Anybody could be that.

When's the last time you were lynched on Day 1?

[dunya]

I think hunting for a mafia team of three and hunting for a rogue are vastly different activities, and there's no baddie team of four. There is a baddie team of 3 and a second lonely baddie team of 1. A scum-read is easier than a rogue-read.

I don't know why you think this. The big mountain win condition doesn't say they need the independent dead to win. Therefore the independent isn't bad. If Olympus Mons is LMS (Last Mountain Standing), then it would be contrary to the stated win condition on page one.

The rogue rarely has to be dead for town to win. I don't think I've ever played in a game where it was a condition, in fact. That doesn't mean he/she wasn't anti-town, because they were. Is it possible for them to target scum too? Sure. That's why they win as long as they're alive with the leading faction and there are no conditions to kill them.

This is from my experience, I haven't played a game with a rogue on this forum yet. Maybe Sloonei or JJJ could tell me if it's different than what I am accustomed to.

[dunya]

@Marmot

Mesk has not posted in 6 days. Dom has not posted in 9. Glornamehere has not posted at all.

The front page lists two replacement players.

Can we sub Bird and Mal in for two of these slots?

I'll do what I can. Haven't heard back from birdwithteeth yet.

where do you live? In Antarctica? What is this strange EoD time? :P

[Jackofhearts2005]

I am placing a tentative vote on Jack for now. There are too many inconsistencies, too many loose ends, a few unanswered questions, strange wordings (mislynch instead of lynch re: Epi, really bugged me) so for now, he remains my strongest scum read which is disappointing to me in another way because his activity levels are actually much higher and more spontaneous than he was as a replacement in the Pirates game where he was scum, so he doesn't fall under the same meta.

I haven't finished catching up yet (I'm on pg 25 out of 40 so I have 15 pages more to go). It's still very early. Let's see how I feel a little later.

[Kylemii]

I've enjoyed reading dunya's catch up posts.

I want to address mesk's play. Who was it that said they had played with her as civ before and she was really fierce? She seems so genuine to me, but that info doesn't allign with her behavior. I think she needs to be up for discussion today.

Linki...by the way... I can never address linki because on my phone, the left side of linki gets cut off for some reason. Just thought I'd share.

I don't think her absence for 6 days is indicative of her alignment. That's what I would like to sway people away from.
Yes, as town, a wrongly accused town, she gets very vocal and aggressively defensive. She hasn't been on the frying pan though, indeed, she hasn't even been on the forum for 6 days so....we can't say she's scum because she's not here.

This is oddly defensive, imo.

Dunya replaced in awesomely with great effort. What if she is too good to be true? What if there have been no night kills because of a quiet mafia and two of them are mesk and now dunya? Just really spitting this out real quick before I go watch tv with the family. I'm not fully caught up so tell me if I'm insane.

You're saying mafia was a blank space? Maybe. But I'd like some names.

Oh come on this was gold

Oh! I get it. Nice joke. 7/10

[dunya]

I am placing a tentative vote on Jack for now. There are too many inconsistencies, too many loose ends, a few unanswered questions, strange wordings (mislynch instead of lynch re: Epi, really bugged me) so for now, he remains my strongest scum read which is disappointing to me in another way because his activity levels are actually much higher and more spontaneous than he was as a replacement in the Pirates game where he was scum, so he doesn't fall under the same meta.

I haven't finished catching up yet (I'm on pg 25 out of 40 so I have 15 pages more to go). It's still very early. Let's see how I feel a little later.

ok *unvote* that response is too cool to lynch today

[Epignosis]

I've enjoyed reading dunya's catch up posts.

I want to address mesk's play. Who was it that said they had played with her as civ before and she was really fierce? She seems so genuine to me, but that info doesn't allign with her behavior. I think she needs to be up for discussion today.

Linki...by the way... I can never address linki because on my phone, the left side of linki gets cut off for some reason. Just thought I'd share.

I don't think her absence for 6 days is indicative of her alignment. That's what I would like to sway people away from.
Yes, as town, a wrongly accused town, she gets very vocal and aggressively defensive. She hasn't been on the frying pan though, indeed, she hasn't even been on the forum for 6 days so....we can't say she's scum because she's not here.

This is oddly defensive, imo.

Dunya replaced in awesomely with great effort. What if she is too good to be true? What if there have been no night kills because of a quiet mafia and two of them are mesk and now dunya? Just really spitting this out real quick before I go watch tv with the family. I'm not fully caught up so tell me if I'm insane.

You're saying mafia was a blank space? Maybe. But I'd like some names.

Oh come on this was gold

Only because I know what it's like to make a joke that I find hilarious and no one else says a thing...

I don't get the joke.

Spoiler: show

Or maybe I'm pretending not to get it.

[Kylemii]

Recent pings:

Obviously, I'm looking to bus my buddies Speedchuck and Dunya so let's get on with that.

Is joke you guys! I'm willing to bet if Jack is bad one (and probably only one) of Speedchuck/Dunya is also bad.

I don't fully understand the 5 bads on Jack? Wasn't jack confirmed good?

What no why would you say that

(To be more specific the consensus I saw after Day 2 was much more that Sloonei was mechanically likely town, not Jack.)

I don't understand how, they were tied but Jack was the one making references to 'almost lynching him' right?

[speedchuck]

The rogue rarely has to be dead for town to win. I don't think I've ever played in a game where it was a condition, in fact. That doesn't mean he/she wasn't anti-town, because they were. Is it possible for them to target scum too? Sure. That's why they win as long as they're alive with the leading faction and there are no conditions to kill them.

This is from my experience, I haven't played a game with a rogue on this forum yet. Maybe Sloonei or JJJ could tell me if it's different than what I am accustomed to.

Depends on if the rogue is anti-town or not.

In Phenon mafia, I was an arsonist (basically a delayed multi-kill serial killer.) I was the last to die of the non-town peeps. The townies won when all threats to town were eliminated.

Since the OP says that the big mountains must eliminate the small mountains to win, I infer that they do not HAVE to kill mars mountain. Our rogue/3p is probably a survival role, a non-lethal marker, or has some other wacky win condition.

[dunya]

The rogue rarely has to be dead for town to win. I don't think I've ever played in a game where it was a condition, in fact. That doesn't mean he/she wasn't anti-town, because they were. Is it possible for them to target scum too? Sure. That's why they win as long as they're alive with the leading faction and there are no conditions to kill them.

This is from my experience, I haven't played a game with a rogue on this forum yet. Maybe Sloonei or JJJ could tell me if it's different than what I am accustomed to.

Depends on if the rogue is anti-town or not.

In Phenon mafia, I was an arsonist (basically a delayed multi-kill serial killer.) I was the last to die of the non-town peeps. The townies won when all threats to town were eliminated.

Since the OP says that the big mountains must eliminate the small mountains to win, I infer that they do not HAVE to kill mars mountain. Our rogue/3p is probably a survival role, a non-lethal marker, or has some other wacky win condition.

Yes, ignore my previous line of thinking. Small mountains have to eliminate big mountains and Mars to win, so it should be safe to assume Mars is more town-aligned, but I wonder if there's no threat at all then what's the point of being self-aligned, y'know.