The Donner Party - Day 7

[triceratopzeuhl]

I don't see a difference between 2 and 3, practically.

I don't agree with 1, rather than people we definitely need to focus on eliminating non-civ roles or we will be screwed come endgame

4 is a valid point but has a lot of potential to be the same as 1, and screw us over in late game

[triceratopzeuhl]

another possibility is that rox told us roles will switch around just to mess with our minds, and it will never actually happen

[thellama73]

another possibility is that rox told us roles will switch around just to mess with our minds, and it will never actually happen

That is brilliant.

[triceratopzeuhl]

I thought I needed to vote now since I'll likely be gone this evening, but I just noticed that poll is 48 hours so woohoo for that.

If Long Con is telling the truth we shouldn't lunch him, but I'm of the opinion that his post is incredibly scummy and possibly rule-breaking

[Ricochet]

another possibility is that rox told us roles will switch around just to mess with our minds, and it will never actually happen

That is brilliant.

She might also suddenly call an end to the game and eat us all.

[Ricochet]

And yeah, I'd like to know myself now why LC considered joining in on the infodumping. It doesn't actually lead to any clarification, but possibly more mystification, in fact.

[Long Con]

Ok, so saying a player is not in my group is considered infodumping. Got it. Am I still allowed to say "i am a civvie"?

[Ricochet]

Yes.

Are you?

[thellama73]

Ok, so saying a player is not in my group is considered infodumping. Got it. Am I still allowed to say "i am a civvie"?

You're allowed to say whatever you want unless the host says otherwise. I'm allowed to vote for you because of what you say.

[Long Con]

I don't feel like answering that. In fact, I feel like I'm the baddie here because I misjudged the game and infodumped without realizing it, so a meta-lynch of me seems most appropriate. And since there isn't such a system in place, why not symbolically meta-lynch me by mobbing up and giving me a real lynch? It really makes the most sense, doesn't it?

[thellama73]

You have one vote, chill out.

[Roxy]

Rules -

This game is quite different unless you played my Haunted House on The Piano Hill game.

The roles first listed are roles that are in the game.
The abilities listed with those roles are in the game.
Here is where it gets tricksy,
The roles and/or abilities change nightly according to a pre-determined schedule.
However, if you are a Possible Dinner and only abilities change then you will still have a Possible Dinner ability.
If roles change then the abilities that are currently with that role change along with it.
So one day you could just be a Possible Dinner waiting to be eaten then the next you could be Killing or Starving someone to death.
Once an ability has been killed or lunched with a role it will remain out of rotation for the duration of the game.
There will be chances to stop the rotation at different intervals throughout the game but there is also a chance that they may never be stopped.

Otherwise all normal game rules apply.
I will be posting in Dead Red so if you are dead post in Purple or Pink please.
If you have a problem or something is making the game un-fun please contact Spacedaisy as she will be your Game Moderator <3 and is expert at such matters.
My say so is final.

Just a friendly Host reminder

[Long Con]

You have one vote, chill out.

I'm chilled. I wasn't being sarcastic. I am against infodumping, and I could see myself lynching someone for infodumping in a game like this, where the random nature of the game really makes it difficult to find anything solid to vote for. Past behaviour doesn't factor in at all to deciding whether or not a player is guilty.

I mistakenly thought that the radically different nature of the game might make the concept of "infodumping" (which is a catch-all phrase that covers a lot of ground, from out-and-out saying something you know, to something that shakes hands with dropping hints) something to look at differently. I didn't really think about the Slippery Slope factor of saying Epig isn't in my small BTSC group.

Maybe I'm a baddie at heart, and so choose to consider myself a baddie this game whether I'm Civ or not, in anticipation that I can achieve a baddie win! Even if it means you lynch me when I know I'm Civ. I like that. That's evil.

If I die as a Civ, and Sarah Keyes rezzes me, do I come back as that Civ? That's another reason to lynch me now, I can just lie in my grave until the Civvies need an extra vote in a crucial lynch, only to pop out as a confirmed Civ and save the day! How noble.

Maybe this game is already giving me schizophrenia.

[Zombarella]

I just spent like an hour catching up on all of y'alls posts. Good greif!

My analysis (for what it's worth):

LongCon was suspicious to me through the whole thread. It seemed like he latched on to other people's ideas/plans in a very convenient way. But now....he's posting like he all feels bad and stuff. I don't know if that is a typical manipulative post for him, and I don't think that his info dumping was that bad, but I still think he's suspicious.

I think that Mrs. Donner's accusation of MP and Epig was likely based on past history and not anything that she knows about either of them in this game,

I don't think that lynching your own civie teammates (that you know are civies) because you are afraid of role switching makes sense. If you are a civie, you should make the best decision in the moment to help that team (Snowman #3).

I am a civie. MP's hyper-analysis is over the top, but I can't see him spending that much time posting and planning if he wasn't a civie. Plus my civie group has latched on to his civie/baddie signaling idea. Epig seems to be willing to say whatever makes drama. Llama....I don't even know.

[Tangrowth]

I realize that I got frustrated over the immediate accusation of me, but I was really just saying: If you're going to suspect me, fine, but I've already shown how people generally suspect me for a plethora of reasons, many contradictory, and that perhaps people should consider the fact that I talk a lot and do many of those things regardless of alignment. Nonetheless, anyone is allowed to suspect me if they want, but if anyone has anything I can address, then I'd be more than happy to. That's all. I hope that's why Dom didn't get replaced, but oh well.

I look forward to playing a different game with you, Dom, and glad to be playing with fingersplints!

Re: Epig, there have been some interesting observations that have come to light. I've had no read on him one way or the other thus far, but, this leads into my next point

Re: LC and infodumping by some, I don't know how I feel about this. I understand the argument that infodumping has been happening way too carelessly lately but there's always the possibility people could be lying about whatever they say, and I think I believe what LC has been saying. Maybe I'm a sucker, but he reads genuine to me, although I am far from committed to saying he's civilian or baddie.

I'm not sure I want to vote LC just for that one comment by him though.

In addition, I, like LC, thought at least some subtle version of infodumping would be more permitted and necessary this game in order to institute any possible mechanisms, but I think it is possible to be elegant about it without coming even close to 'so and so is bad'. I suppose I can appreciate the argument that saying who is or isn't a BTSCmate is info-droppy though since there's so much BTSC, but if we all switch it won't really have much, if any, bearing after today anyway.

I see MM self-voted, but it was apparently to check out the vote changeability (sorry I didn't comment on this earlier, MM ), so I'll let that one slide for now.

Snowman, thanks for the summary, it was astute. My viewpoint I suppose could be classified under a mixture of #2 and #3, and I personally am most comfortable playing under those options. If others want to take the other approaches, I can understand that, but I still think those two are the best ones to ensure a civilian win this game.

Snowman, why did you vote for Epig? I can easily speculate, but I'm curious since you didn't state bluntly why you cast your vote for him.

Linki w/ Zomb: I will admit that my hyper-analysis would occur likely regardless of alignment, so I wouldn't recommend trusting me just for that reason -- I've been a really active civilian-seeming baddie before (in fact, it's kind of my style). Nonetheless, I don't think it warrants automatic suspicion of me either. It just means I love mafia and it takes up almost all of my free me time.

[Tangrowth]

Oops, typo, EBWOP:

I hope that's not why Dom got replaced.*

[Zombarella]

Linki w/ Zomb: I will admit that my hyper-analysis would occur likely regardless of alignment, so I wouldn't recommend trusting me just for that reason -- I've been a really active civilian-seeming baddie before (in fact, it's kind of my style). Nonetheless, I don't think it warrants automatic suspicion of me either. It just means I love mafia and it takes up almost all of my free me time.

Yeah, but this time you sound legit.

Llama seems pretty upset about posting who's in what BSCG with who. I get that it's against the rules but he seems overly upset about it. Perhaps that's his nature, but it seems to me that a civie wouldn't really worried about that kind of information getting out because it would be protective. However, who else would make such a brazen attack on Epig and MP via the message from Mrs. Donner? I'll wait to see how he reacts to this comment.

Russ and FZ, your comments don't give me info one way or another. I suspect that this may be because you are letting others in your group do all the talking...

Snowman, your post is all about civie strategy - none of them really favor the baddies. However, it is pretty benign and does divert our attention away from lunching you.

I feel like the game is designed to make the civies turn on each other - the way the real Donner party did. Bwahahaha.

In real life, Levina's mother in law was named Holly Ann Duke. She is my 5th(?) great grandmother and the namesake of my daughter: Holly Ann Cooper. Levina's husband's brother was named Emanuel Masters Murphy and he had like 50 wives.

[thellama73]

Llama seems pretty upset about posting who's in what BSCG with who. I get that it's against the rules but he seems overly upset about it. Perhaps that's his nature, but it seems to me that a civie wouldn't really worried about that kind of information getting out because it would be protective. However, who else would make such a brazen attack on Epig and MP via the message from Mrs. Donner? I'll wait to see how he reacts to this comment.

Yeah, because only baddies care about not cheating. He said, pretty sarcastically.

I figured someone would make that accusation when I posted what I did, but you can't lynch me today anyway, and by tomorrow, who knows what role I will have?

[Zombarella]

Russ and FZ, your comments don't give me info one way or another. I suspect that this may be because you are letting others in your group do all the talking...
[/ot]

Not a dig. I just mean that I think that you might actually be in a civie group.

PornStar, I wonder if you are maybe acting confused to earn sympathy? Things that make you go hmm.....

[Zombarella]

Llama seems pretty upset about posting who's in what BSCG with who. I get that it's against the rules but he seems overly upset about it. Perhaps that's his nature, but it seems to me that a civie wouldn't really worried about that kind of information getting out because it would be protective. However, who else would make such a brazen attack on Epig and MP via the message from Mrs. Donner? I'll wait to see how he reacts to this comment.

Yeah, because only baddies care about not cheating. He said, pretty sarcastically.

I figured someone would make that accusation when I posted what I did, but you can't lynch me today anyway, and by tomorrow, who knows what role I will have?

No, I don't think that only baddies care about cheating. I just haven't ever played a game with you before so I don't know. Some people have more of a sense of justice than others. Some people are fine with others cheating if I helps them. Oh yeah, I forgot that you can't get eaten. Anyway, I think that you might be able to influence Mrs. Donner in some way so I don't suspect you.

[Zombarella]

Actually, since they're both keen to infodump, shall we assume FZ and LC are actually in the same group and infodumping is their "mechanism"?

This feels like a weird assumption to me. It sounds a little protective. Maybe Rico, FZ, and LC are all in the same group?

[Tangrowth]

Zomb, I have the following questions for you:

- How do you feel about Snowman this game? Any read on him yet (more likely civ or bad) or not sure?
- Same question regarding Epi
- Same question regarding trice (I had a good laugh when you called him PornStar)
- Regarding your point about Russ and FZ., could they not have baddie BTSC with the same argument? I'm not saying I suspect or don't suspect either of them, but I'm merely playing devil's advocate with your argument.

[fingersplints]

Hey guys. anyone want to catch me up?

[Tangrowth]

Hey guys. anyone want to catch me up?

Hello splints!

Well, it might actually be best to skim through the thread if I were you, especially since you have until tomorrow evening (EST). It's actually difficult to summarize what has happened so far, but I'll give you a few bullet points:

- There has been much discussion philosophically regarding what method of behavior most benefits civilians in this game, since it is evident there will be role and alignment switching (but none of us have any idea how much just yet). Russ and I particularly disagreed, but Snowman summarized four different ways to approach this game that I (and others seem to) feel are astute.

- Epi said he thought Rico might be bad, but seemed to just be trying to illicit response, which Snowman called him out on.

- After Night 0, Mrs. Donner said Epi and I might be bad, which Dom (now you) echoed, even though it seems he didn't actively suspect me, but had a ping because he thought I was trying too hard. I don't remember him elaborating on Epi really.

- More recently, FZ. and LC have said that Epi is not in their BTSC group (presumably civilian), the latter of which it appears skirts infodumping more. Given recent events in other games, Llama has voted for LC because of his alleged infodump.

- MM has also self-voted (apparently to check whether votes were changeable, though this isn't out of character by any means) and Snowman has voted for Epi.

Hope that helps.

[thellama73]

Excellent summary, MP. I was going to give one, but you said literally everything I was going to.

Welcome, Splints!

[fingersplints]

I plan on trying to read the thread but I'm going to be honest here I've never managed to catch up ever when I have replaced in. so thanks for the summary
MM's self vote/poll checking seems normal to me. I'm going to have to think some about the rest

[Bass_the_Clever]

Ok so I just caught up and wow this is going to be a crazy game. I think firing blindly isn't a good idea because it probably give the mafia teams have a better shot at winning come end game. I like Snowman's third plan so far.

[Long Con]

I think that any option from Snowman's 1-4 still leaves us in the same blind-firing situation.

Also, I'm looking through MM's posts to see exactly what I find suspicious about him, but I'm doing it bits at a time because I'm also doing household stuff... right now, I'm going to the grocery store. Pork chops!

[Zombarella]

Zomb, I have the following questions for you:

- How do you feel about Snowman this game? Any read on him yet (more likely civ or bad) or not sure?
- Same question regarding Epi
- Same question regarding trice (I had a good laugh when you called him PornStar)
- Regarding your point about Russ and FZ., could they not have baddie BTSC with the same argument? I'm not saying I suspect or don't suspect either of them, but I'm merely playing devil's advocate with your argument.

- Snowman's behavior is typical. He likes to do psychoanalysis and then sit back and watch the fight. I cannot read him. Ever. I know that if he is a baddie, we are all probably dead.
- I will now refer to PornStar - I mean trice - as PS JK PornStar, you know you're my favorite.
- It seems weird that players would collude to infodump. Plus, I think it was accidental. But, anyone in a baddie group would try to act like they were in a civie group.
- There are so many non-posters. We might all be civies.

[Zombarella]

- There are so many non-posters. We might all be civies.

Actually I just counted and there are less than I thought. Somebody here is a baddie! Where you at baddie?

[FZ.]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

[Epignosis]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

I didn't let you know that. Elizabeth did.

[Bass_the_Clever]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

I think it was a good observation.

[FZ.]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

I didn't let you know that. Elizabeth did.

True. Still, too bad for you

[Epignosis]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

I didn't let you know that. Elizabeth did.

True. Still, too bad for you

Yep. Too bad for me. A real pity.

You might even say it's eating me up inside.

[FZ.]

I'm sorry if what I said was considered as infodumping, but I could be lying, and I could be a baddie in the other group. It doesn't make my case any less compelling. Which is, since Epi let us know he's not a Donner, each and everyone of us can now deduct what are the chances of him being bad.

My vote will most likely go to Epig or Russ

I didn't let you know that. Elizabeth did.

True. Still, too bad for you

Yep. Too bad for me. A real pity.

You might even say it's eating me up inside.

I might. I might also say that you don't seem to be coming up with any alternative option for a lynch, which is something I expect from you. So it's making me trust you even less

[Zombarella]

Zomb, I have the following questions for you:

- How do you feel about Snowman this game? Any read on him yet (more likely civ or bad) or not sure?
- Same question regarding Epi
- Same question regarding trice (I had a good laugh when you called him PornStar)
- Regarding your point about Russ and FZ., could they not have baddie BTSC with the same argument? I'm not saying I suspect or don't suspect either of them, but I'm merely playing devil's advocate with your argument.

- Snowman's behavior is typical. He likes to do psychoanalysis and then sit back and watch the fight. I cannot read him. Ever. I know that if he is a baddie, we are all probably dead.

Rethinking Snowman - Why would he vote for Epig? Only reason - He feels Epig is a threat - i.e., Snowman is a baddie and is afraid of Epig figuring him out - or Snowman is a civie and is trying to divert attention away from himself toward an easy target (in reference to the message from Mrs. Donner) and doesn't care if the target is a baddie or a civie. Either way, Snowman is dangerous.

[Marmot]

- MM has also self-voted (apparently to check whether votes were changeable, though this isn't out of character by any means) and Snowman has voted for Epi.

I will be around later, so my vote won't stay.

I was also doing out of spite just a little bit, but thank you for taking the joke in stride MP.

[Tangrowth]

Well, it appears Epi has voted himself, and clearly isn't baddie hunting. Shame since I was looking forward to playing a game with him and I agreed with his observations re: Russ's points, but I don't envy the situation he's been put in.

I can always move it later, but I see no reason to wait now. Still curious why Snowman voted him nonetheless.

Votes Epi

[Epignosis]

Well, it appears Epi has voted himself, and clearly isn't baddie hunting. Shame since I was looking forward to playing a game with him and I agreed with his observations re: Russ's points, but I don't envy the situation he's been put in.

I can always move it later, but I see no reason to wait now. Still curious why Snowman voted him nonetheless.

Votes Epi

Oh, I don't mind my situation at all.

After Night 0, some of the mechanics became clear to me. Not all of them, mind you. Interesting stuff if my interpretation is not in error. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd wager that some of you also know what I'm talking about.

[Zombarella]

Oh, I don't mind my situation at all.

After Night 0, some of the mechanics became clear to me. Not all of them, mind you. Interesting stuff if my interpretation is not in error. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd wager that some of you also know what I'm talking about.

Well this is a turn of events. Of course I don't know what you are talking about but I'ma gonna try to figure it out!

I'm leaning toward Snowman right now.

[Tangrowth]

Well, it appears Epi has voted himself, and clearly isn't baddie hunting. Shame since I was looking forward to playing a game with him and I agreed with his observations re: Russ's points, but I don't envy the situation he's been put in.

I can always move it later, but I see no reason to wait now. Still curious why Snowman voted him nonetheless.

Votes Epi

Oh, I don't mind my situation at all.

After Night 0, some of the mechanics became clear to me. Not all of them, mind you. Interesting stuff if my interpretation is not in error. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd wager that some of you also know what I'm talking about.

Not sure I know what you mean right off hand, but I'll mull over this.

Oh, I don't mind my situation at all.

After Night 0, some of the mechanics became clear to me. Not all of them, mind you. Interesting stuff if my interpretation is not in error. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd wager that some of you also know what I'm talking about.

Well this is a turn of events. Of course I don't know what you are talking about but I'ma gonna try to figure it out!

I'm leaning toward Snowman right now.

I'm intrigued to hear Snowman's response to your suspicion of him, considering your opinion of him is not one to be taken lightly.

[FZ.]

Well, it appears Epi has voted himself, and clearly isn't baddie hunting. Shame since I was looking forward to playing a game with him and I agreed with his observations re: Russ's points, but I don't envy the situation he's been put in.

I can always move it later, but I see no reason to wait now. Still curious why Snowman voted him nonetheless.

Votes Epi

Oh, I don't mind my situation at all.

After Night 0, some of the mechanics became clear to me. Not all of them, mind you. Interesting stuff if my interpretation is not in error. I'm not going to spoil anything. I'd wager that some of you also know what I'm talking about.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about. Makes me feel stupid I hate when I don't follow.

But why did you vote for yourself? I kind of feel bad for pointing out something that was obvious, but now I think that Elizabeth's message was probably not fair. Funny thing is, that it was probably your reaction that made me think of it, because she mentioned MP as well, which would put him in the same spot and it didn't make anyone think about him.
But does this mean your Watsach and know that if you get lynched, you don't die and then you'll probably switch roles?

[FZ.]

Was I allowed to say that? If not, I apologize. I don't get the rules

[Epignosis]

Everyone at this point can't know what I'm talking about, but I have to believe at least a few others do. It makes sense why there's all this civilian BTSC and why stuff will shift the way it will (although how things shift is still cloudy to me).

I'll just say this: Do you see secrets by any of the roles? I don't, but that doesn't mean they aren't there, aren't changing, and don't affect win conditions.

Pro-Tip: Be careful whom you trust from this point on.

[FZ.]

I think at this point, the most probable theory is that Epi is Watsach. I also think he's BSing us in case there's a team trying to come up with a game strategy for later, and for the chance that he stays a baddie.

I'll be going in a few minutes, and tomorrow I'll barely be here if any. I see no reason to not vote Epi.

[FZ.]

*votes* Epi

[Epignosis]

I think at this point, the most probable theory is that Epi is Watsach. I also think he's BSing us in case there's a team trying to come up with a game strategy for later, and for the chance that he stays a baddie.

I'll be going in a few minutes, and tomorrow I'll barely be here if any. I see no reason to not vote Epi.

You don't trust me.

You will soon enough.

[Russtifinko]

I voted Epi. Was low on time, so no post before. Not even really because I particularly want him gone, but his posting makes me curious what'll happen if he gets lunched, he seems cool with it, and he's not me.

[Russtifinko]

I thought a game like this was designed to require infodumping, given the random nature of people's roles and alignments. If there's a 'no infodumping' rule in place, then... I guess the plan I thought of off MP07's idea won't work, because it requires signalling which Group you're in to your former Group-mates.

YOu can play how you like, but I don't like all the role hinting and infodumping that has become the norm in recent games, and I plan on signalling my displeasure with my vote.

You orally get me and I dig it.

Seriously, though, I am a well-known info dump hater, and I support llama in his quest to remove it from the game by lunching people who do it. Normally I wouldn't have voted Epi today except that he seemed genuinely ok with it (not passive-aggressively "ok with it"). I'll be looking hard at future info-dumpers, personally.

If I die as a Civ, and Sarah Keyes rezzes me, do I come back as that Civ? That's another reason to lynch me now, I can just lie in my grave until the Civvies need an extra vote in a crucial lynch, only to pop out as a confirmed Civ and save the day! How noble.

Maybe this game is already giving me schizophrenia.

This is a good question. Good thing to keep in mind for later. Hostess?