The Syndicate

Belzy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:57 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

No s---, Sherlock. So where was the redirection possibility the other day? You have to go first.

I don’t know what that means, but yes clearly you suspect me. So this post was pointless. Thanks for it.

Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:43 am Hello. I did not lie. I was subjected to shenanigans. Welcome to closed role madness.

Folks aren’t going to believe me unfortunately, and I believe the game is at 6 vs. 4 (barring unseen independent activity). So we’re about to lose the game.

I’ll see if I can work a miracle, but it is a very bad time.

If we are close to losing, then that shows we cannot trust/believe you anymore nor Zenon.

I’ve played 150 games or so, and I don’t believe I have ever faked a red check for a 1-1 trade. It’s bad Mafia. Oh well, this will have to be cleared up when the game is over and folks are willing to listen.

I understand doubts. It is what it is.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:56 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:55 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

I thought it was obvious. It’s what all watchers do

Wasn't obvious for me (I don't do traditional, clear cut mafia terminology), which is why I asked you if you think there's any chance your read is wrong or corrupt.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:00 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:56 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:55 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

I thought it was obvious. It’s what all watchers do

Wasn't obvious for me (I don't do traditional, clear cut mafia terminology), which is why I asked you if you think there's any chance your read is wrong or corrupt.

Second counterpoint would be that Epignosis is within reason a game host who can modify, alter etc. traditional roles.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:59 am Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

I think it’d have to be the mafia swapping themselves with meatbaby while performing the kill. Could be other ways, I dunno. But that’s the one for which I have seen roles that fit.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:02 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:00 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:56 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:55 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

I thought it was obvious. It’s what all watchers do

Wasn't obvious for me (I don't do traditional, clear cut mafia terminology), which is why I asked you if you think there's any chance your read is wrong or corrupt.

Second counterpoint would be that Epignosis is within reason a game host who can modify, alter etc. traditional roles.

When you asked me that I told you shenanigans are always possible. They’re not probable, but *gestures broadly*

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:02 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:59 am Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

I think it’d have to be the mafia swapping themselves with meatbaby while performing the kill. Could be other ways, I dunno. But that’s the one for which I have seen roles that fit.

That is so bastard of a redirect, I would attribute it a low chance of mechanical design.

A kill is a player submitting a kill i.e. targeting.

I'm closer to believing Epignosis would not alter such requirement.

These are the dangers of assuming too much about a setup. I will take my share of the blame for that.

I might commemorate this unfortunate game-losing bad luck with gifs. Who likes gifs?

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:59 am Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

Everyone, please decide on this.

Also possible there’s a ninja (tracker/watcher evader) to counteract tracker Vivax and I

I have pretty limited time right meow, but I skimmed and have a few things:

1. Zenon/Jay claims - I don't see Zenon/Jay w/t making sense, so the only world where Jay is town is where both Jay and Zenon are town. If that's the case, there has to be something weird going on behind the scenes, and I'd be wary of both claims. As such, between Jay/Moto, always elim Jay here.

2. It's possible Rico spewed that wolf team has only 3 members. That's a bad assumption to make in an 18er. It's possible he's purposefully trying to avoid us realizing we're in melo though. 3 wolves pretty much means at least one 3p maybe two 3p (or there are some way OP BTS mechanics we're being whammied with to offset the 15/3 dynamic with multiple town KP).

but...

3. Rico's push on Jay's tracker mechanics is like wtf? Honestly he's coming off as paranoid town and I feel like my whole worldview is crumping. Idk I gotta think more about this.

Finally,

4. I was poisoned, and uhh... apparently my spider gland is soggy so I can't use it. Which is pretty cool.

Yeah, my mind is cooked and so is the game, probably. We've reached a state in which we have to crack and/or pick between two identical claims. We've heard from JJJ, what do we think Zenon will say, besides "im telling you visit = death = gg wolf caught", and then "well heck i must have been redirected" if we reach D5 with a moto townflip. How do you deal with that?

Wish I wasn't town, lol. (recruit pls?)

If the world is truly town-watcher!JJJ and town-watcher!Zenon (in addition to a town-tracker!Vivax, who in theory could have also played a bigger role), then the mafia must have defence against being read/caught easily. In which case we can't trust in full their watch reads. The Occam thought is to say that JJJ and Zenon cannot both be town.

I'm still boggled that a wolf-JJJ wouldn't sweat out a two-vote wagon, 17 hours into a 48-hour phase, and resort to faking a claim to get out of it. But hey, reverse psych can go to such lenghts.

As we are now, a wolf-Zenon could certainly cook a fake claim, since both a mislynch on JJJ for discret or a mislynch on moto would benefit or even win them the game.

Will you die of poisoning, Seanzie? And if so, will you die toDay or toNight? We probably can't afford multiple night Deaths either.

I also forgot that JJJ is also at +2 in hunger votes. So if town, it's a near mechanical scenario of a 4-mafia team securing the votes to not lose phase and game altogether.

No/lo desire to talk is pretty derpressing.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:26 am Like I don't know how to take the Zenon claim at all at this rate after what happened Day 3.

Legit could be seeing it as the maf team just flat out deciding "Let's just continue to claim red checks on towns now that the numbers are on our side."

But also could be them accidentally causing the best form of WIFOM and Zenon's check is actually real, but the JJJ's fake ends up making us have second thoughts on the matter and we end up misyeeting Zenon on accident because we end up assuming it's another attempt at tricking the town and wolves win anyways.

"Now, Brad, which one do you think it is?"

Dude I don't fucking know.

I'll take the 1 for 1 me for Moto honestly

Kill me first if you need proof

I'm not an asset to this game beyond my pr I'm extremely disconnected

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:34 am The most tinfoil detail about Zenon’s claim could be that it’s overpowered. Contrary to JJJ’s ability claim, Zenon would track every visit. And confirmation that there was only one visit, moto’s.

If not for this difference, Zenon’s claim would be identical to JJJ’s.

Except it's not that op

I can't double target. I have to correctly guess who in the pl is going to be night killed in order to have a useful inspect.

Yeah I see kills but the likelihood of that happening its so extremely low

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:04 am If we lynch JJJ and he is town, we’re left in lylo with flipping moto. If that also flips town, gg zenon.

Should honestly flip me or the confirmed red first for this reason but nobody wants to trust mech over a potentially flawed social read

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:31 am Please compare

Zenon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:09 pm
I see every one who visits a target

I watched Rondo

Moto visited

Moto killed

Moto is scum

GGs

Zenon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:24 pm
I'm quite literally a lookout yes lol my flavor is a pirate and I use my spyglass to see everyone who targeted the player the night I watch them

I fucked up thinking Tutuu would get killed N1 because I didn't understand how her claimed role worked so I watched her n1 there's no double targeting so I tried to watch her n2 but couldn't do I watched JJJ n2 no visits wish I had flipped those but oh well

Watched Rondo last night 1 visit moto

Rondo dead

GGs caught wolf

Deduction:

100% result that moto is bad
If this flips false, 100% certainty that Zenon wolf bullshiter.

VS

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:06 pm Probably a good look for meatbaby too, even if they clearly had frustrations with tutuu

I lied.

I have a 1-shot watcher ability, and I watched tutuu last night. meatbaby visited her.

[VOTE: die_meatbaby] aubergine

Deduction:

No clear result that meatbaby was the sole visitor (aka killer).
No clear result (or clarification) that JJJ could track every visit.
Meatbaby flipped town: no 100% certainy JJJ was bullshitter (and not blunderer).

Yes correct pls kill the guarantee pls dear God

Kill me.

Kill me into moto and than Jay

There's no shot there's 2 identical roles on town so kill me see my flip confirm me and than fucking listen to me

Pleaseeeee

Low key the mech stuff kinda slowed this game down a lot.

However doesn't help that it's been all town deaths as well and motivation is just tanking.

.....

Annnnnnd the few super active players died.

Which like...again that Scotty Day 1 yeet I'm mostly pointing at as one of the worst moves I've seen for a Day 1 because that dude was obviously town.

Also this mech stuff is just freezing a lot of us.

If they're real I can't blame y'all obviously, like you're supposed to claim these things.

It's not necessarily the motivation tanking, it's the mech claim making players park a vote and bail on play for a second phase running.

Though the JJJ voters are the ones active and talking.

Zenon now wants to be flipped, but that's game-losing if she is indeed town, so what's the point of this request, if town?

motobot parked a vote, didn't even post.

Porscha is among the talkers, but seems to hold on to voting.

Falcon is bail on activity, either that's wolf leisure or, as I've said, I need a manual on how he can decide to play like this as town.

I say we flip the moto read. That's my Occam take. If we lose, gg, congrats wolfs.

Zenon being town and asking to be flipped is a self-destructive town move or a wolf flaunt. Welcome to WIFOMville.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:29 am I say we flip the moto read. That's my Occam take. If we lose, gg, congrats wolfs.

Zenon being town and asking to be flipped is a self-destructive town move or a wolf flaunt. Welcome to WIFOMville.

Can we please elim this?

I jest, but only slightly.

We can do anything, especially not attempt to solve the game.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:25 am It's not necessarily the motivation tanking, it's the mech claim making players park a vote and bail on play for a second phase running.

Though the JJJ voters are the ones active and talking.

Zenon now wants to be flipped, but that's game-losing if she is indeed town, so what's the point of this request, if town?

motobot parked a vote, didn't even post.

Porscha is among the talkers, but seems to hold on to voting.

Falcon is bail on activity, either that's wolf leisure or, as I've said, I need a manual on how he can decide to play like this as town.

It's not game losing it guarantees my info which proves 2 things

Moto is guaranteed wolf

JJJ is >rand wolf because no host is giving two identical roles to town

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 3:05 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:29 am I say we flip the moto read. That's my Occam take. If we lose, gg, congrats wolfs.

Zenon being town and asking to be flipped is a self-destructive town move or a wolf flaunt. Welcome to WIFOMville.

Can we please elim this?

No because killing moto is the correct play

Look. I fucking hate mech. I wouldn't be bringing it up unless I'm telling the truth or making a wolf gambit. And I am willing to die to prove that it's the truth

It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:37 am Look. I fucking hate mech. I wouldn't be bringing it up unless I'm telling the truth or making a wolf gambit. And I am willing to die to prove that it's the truth

Lol, that clarifies so much, Captain WIFOM.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 am It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

Wait... it's 6 v 4

Well than we always flip the mech here wtf

We may not even have the votes right now to sink moto. He ain’t voting himself. Only Porscha and falcon haven’t voted.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:42 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 am It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

Wait... it's 6 v 4

Well than we always flip the mech here wtf

I’m down.

Dunno why you asked to be flipped, then.

You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:42 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 am It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

Wait... it's 6 v 4

Well than we always flip the mech here wtf

I’m down.

Dunno why you asked to be flipped, then.

Didn't realize it was mylo obvs i have barely been paying attention

Always vote the mech in mylo

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

You call it a guarantee, even though your read could be just as corrupt as Jay’s has proven to be. Or the killer cannot be tracked. Or various other mech difficulties.

There is no objective guarantee with this.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:46 am

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

You call it a guarantee, even though your read could be just as corrupt as Jay’s has proven to be. Or the killer cannot be tracked. Or various other mech difficulties.

There is no objective guarantee with this.

Well I mean I know I'm the role I claim with the results I claim so like yes it's a guarantee fmpov

But like are you willing to risk the game on trying to play "is Zenon lying?"

That's a question for all of town

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:20 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:46 am

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

You call it a guarantee, even though your read could be just as corrupt as Jay’s has proven to be. Or the killer cannot be tracked. Or various other mech difficulties.

There is no objective guarantee with this.

Well I mean I know I'm the role I claim with the results I claim so like yes it's a guarantee fmpov

But like are you willing to risk the game on trying to play "is Zenon lying?"

I’m willing to flip the claim and get back for real to playing the video game some more.

Wolves have all the reason to just slank and pile on a wagon.

GGs if you strategised and duped us with a carbon copy claim.

*checks game*

yep looks like we're still screwed

Thanks for checking the game.

Will you not vote?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 6:26 am *checks game*

yep looks like we're still screwed

Wanna vote the mech outed scum pls