JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:I am townreading that highlighted bit. That sentiment is constructed in a manner that bluntly stated his beef; at face value, I believe him. Further, I like his last paragraph, because as a member of the mafia he could have easily used this conversation to derail or antagonize as a way to manipulate the thread, but he left it alone.
In summary, INH noted my declaration to use POE, noted a fair criticism of its approach in this game, then after engaging with me a bit further on it, clearly stated his beef with it, that he will be using a different method, and was willing to leave it at that. I see no nefarious avenue for the way he approached this situation, only a fellow member of the town sincerely expressing his concerns and approach to the game.
It's not much, but I think already the strategy conversation at least generated a potentially useful read. What do you think?
I think INH completely misinterpreted/misrepresented my perspective (I won't even be using much PoE myself in this game, he assumed the contrary based on I don't know what). That happens in every game we play together though so shrug. We seem to have some core inability to understand one another that has never ceased.
I think his stance on the issue suits his meta, which is a decent enough look so early in the game that there's nothing better to say.
Call it me getting too emotionally-invested in mafia, or me being simply too stubbornly self-righteous, but I genuinely despise getting mislynched as a civilian. Yes, I know nobody actually enjoys it, but I sometimes feel physically ill if I'm getting slaughtered in the thread for reasons I believe to be idiotic. That usually causes me to get worked up, usually to my own detriment. See: Max, Mad (where I ironically had a role where if I was lynched, I lost my ability to vote, but was more or less proven town. This lead to me leading a miserable existence surrounded by people who tried quite hard to lynch me, which caused me to randomize my vote and occasionally pop in to watch the fireworks, and beg to be nightkilled. Not one of my finer showings.)
I personally find game theory and the different permutations and situations it examines absolutely fascinating. Inventive and crazy game mechanics are why I play mafia- not because I'm good at reading people. This is why I'm trying to stick to mostly heavily experimental and, for lack of a better word, crazy games. (My favorite game of all time is
Oblique Strategies, a bizarre lark of a game where I managed to convince members of a team I had to have dead to win to publicly out themselves and submit themselves to be lynched. So that tells you what my idea of a good mafia game is.)
The real reason I don't like POE is because I deeply fear a situation where I haven't been towncleared by the Supatown Collective Consciousness, and due to good ol' Process of Elimination have to be lynched. Unfortunately, my playing style is too non-showy and lacking bold play, and the votes pile up in my direction. No matter how much I scream and yell in the thread, I'm still seen as playing inferior to other people, and am told for my efforts that I should try harder at trying to catch baddies instead of bothering to defend myself, a concept which I find intrinsically offensive.
It's just far easier for me to see ways in which POE doesn't work, and many ways in which it could directly screw me over than it is for me to see ways in which it works perfectly.
Part of that is because I find declaring someone a civilian and someone a member of the mafia equally difficult. Unfortunately, my brain is inclined towards seeing people who are nice and respectful towards me, and play the same way, vote the same way, and act the same way as me as civilians, which is something I deliberately to counteract by being very apprehensive to give an actual townread. So the fact that MP has already decided to townread me completely confuzzles me.
In my reckoning, townreads should be under as much if not more scrutiny than scumreads, and are equally unreliable. I've been wrong many a time as a civilian about who I think is mafia, and I can only imagine that if I, personally, were to embrace the POE strategy, I would have an equal margin of error. But, if I misread one civilian as mafia, and get them lynched, that equals 1 dead civilian. If I misread one mafia as civilian, and I continue lynching people I don't view as civillians, that's far more possible net civ losses.
To bring this rambling discursive mini essay back to something approaching a cogent point, let me futher illustrate the quibble I have with this post from 3J, which I brushed over earlier:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think INH is right that a cooperative PoE effort in a game where townies must survive to win is inherently challenged, because in games like this town reads are generally harder to come by. However, the only reason that's true is that townies are more hesitant to put forth a visible, vocal effort for fear of standing out and becoming kill targets. That problem is resolved if every townie puts forth a visible, vocal effort.
Maybe that's a pipe dream, but I would encourage the townies out there to still make a concerted effort to play for the town win condition as much as their own survival. To focus too much on survival ensures that the baddies benefit maximally from these rules as I would theorize they typically do. I think it's the #1 reason town won games so infrequently on this site until recently (as that rule has appeared less often).
Rico, please don't interpret this as a complaint. It's just advice.
Nobody, except for maybe Vompatti, (sorry vomps, luv u) signs up for a game not expecting to play to the best of their abilities. But, the fact of the matter is that people play differently. I'm skittish. I dislike jumping the gun, am apprehensive to make reads, and like to sit back and observe the thread instead of directly instigating it. That doesn't really jive with this:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:When I say I want townies to play for the town win condition, that means I want to see their reads. I want to see their suspicions. I want to see their cases.
Players who get very intensely into the game, like 3J, have no problem coming up with reads, cases, and suspicions. Those who are not necessarily as forthcoming with reads, cases, and suspicions could then be seen as not furthering the civ cause. Then, they have less evidence of their "civvieness" than their more post-happy counterparts. That's where POE breaks down for me.
You'd never see a player like (sorry to keep using you as an example; it's just too easy) Vompatti advocate for the use of POE. It's usually players who contribute heavily to the thread, and are confident in their ability to do so in the future.
It feels like a system that directly benefits the super active and punishes the lesser active, both of which being completely irrelevant to actual alignment. And stuff like this:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I want to town read you and Golden, but I cannot justify that quite yet
just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Anywho.
Is any of this relevant to GY!BE Mafia, and who I personally suspect? Fuck no. Hell, 3J is saying that he isn't using POE, which makes a large part of this essay irrelevant. But I feel like there's been some friction between me and 3J specifically, who continues to think my meta is contrarian gnat, and may try to lynch me the second I agree with him on something. It's a Jane Austen, socialite ladies slighting each other at dinner parties kind of friction, but still. I just wanted to vomit my thought out on this subject, just to get them clearly out there. After all, I'm just a soul whose intentions are good, oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.
[-Mass Effect Mafia banner-]
So, all that said, have a great game and I will be reading along and commenting now and again just so you all know I'm still here! Have fun!
