The Syndicate

I've been busy binging David Bowie's discography chronologically as I've been working my ass off the last couple of days, but I should be putting in a first listen of this sometime soon (probably tomorrow). Looking forward to it as well! I'm pleased that so many albums nominated so far have been ones I've never heard before.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I've been busy binging David Bowie's discography chronologically as I've been working my ass off the last couple of days, but I should be putting in a first listen of this sometime soon (probably tomorrow). Looking forward to it as well! I'm pleased that so many albums nominated so far have been ones I've never heard before.

Lodger is very underrated.

As you can see, I've made modifications, but do please verify that I haven't changed any of your ratings in the process of flipping them over.

I'm almost through my first spin of Whole Stories. I like the part with the noises.

first impression:

huh

Yeah, after one listen of Whole Stories, I can tell that this genre of music is not for me. That doesn't mean it's bad. It just means that it's not for me.

I can appreciate what it's trying to do, but I can't get into it. I don't either strongly like or dislike it, it's just really...'uh'. Giving it 2 stars.

Ricochet wrote:

As you can see, I've made modifications, but do please verify that I haven't changed any of your ratings in the process of flipping them over.

My rankings out of what I've been able to listen to:

Beneath the Brine: 2.5/5
Fishmans: 4/5
World Music: 3.5/5
Bish Bosch: 5/5
Woodface: 2/5
Arthur: 4/5

For those I've listened to so far:

Chuck Berry is on Top - 3/5
Woodface - 3.5/5
Arthur - 2.5/5
Whole Stories - 2/5

Rico I said 3.5 for Arthur but was apparently ignored

Arthur by The Kinks is okay stuff, decidedly British of the time, but this particular album I find fits right in that unfortunate wedge between accessible and quirky, and that wedge is "forgettable." I don't care for the vocals and never have. They're awfully nasally and the harmonies tend to be discordant.

I do appreciate the historical theatrics (histrionics? ), and I think the lead guitar has some swell moments.

But this is a 2/5 for me. Decent music, but there's so much more music in this same style I like better.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'm almost through my first spin of Whole Stories. I like the part with the noises.

Spoiler: show

Don't mind me, I have barely dabbled in this genre. I don't actively dislike it, and nor does it do anything for me. I laughed a bit when the lady was trying to keep people in an orderly line. 2.5 first impression.

Yeaaaah this is... well.... different. Thoughts below (having gone into this with no "spoilers"/not even knowing what genre this would be, I'd like to give everyone else a chance to do so)

I wonder how I'll compare this to Bish Bosch. I just need to find time to catch up!

It's not even in the same ballpark as Bish Bosch, lol.


Tbh I posted a little prematurely, and I think I'm enjoying the second half a bit more than the first.

nutella wrote:It's not even in the same ballpark as Bish Bosch, lol.

I can tell that just from the comments.

Given that Bish Bosch is really not my kind of experimental music, maybe this will be.

Sometimes experimental music isn't music. It's just experimental. To my mind, experimentation is best when you find something cool and refine it.

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I've been busy binging David Bowie's discography chronologically as I've been working my ass off the last couple of days, but I should be putting in a first listen of this sometime soon (probably tomorrow). Looking forward to it as well! I'm pleased that so many albums nominated so far have been ones I've never heard before.

Lodger is very underrated.

Isn't it though?

I just finished. Here's my Bowie rankings:
I'm tired though, so this album will be first thing tomorrow morning.

Also, Rico, I gave Arthur a 3.0 FYI.

Epignosis wrote:Sometimes experimental music isn't music. It's just experimental. To my mind, experimentation is best when you find something cool and refine it.

I'd like to hear an example of experimental music that you consider to be either cool, refined, music, any or all of these.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
I just finished. Here's my Bowie rankings:

Spoiler: show

1) Low
2) Station to Station
3) Blackstar (RIP)
4) Hunky Dory
5) Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)
6) The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars
7) "Heroes"
8) Aladdin Sane
9) Lodger
10) The Next Day
11) Diamond Dogs
12) Earthling
13) Heathen
14) 1.Outside
15) The Man Who Sold the World
16) Let's Dance
17) Young Americans
18) 'Hours...'
19) David Bowie (1969)
20) Reality
21) Black Tie White Noise
22) Tonight
23) Pin Ups
24) David Bowie (1967)
25) Never Let Me Down

What's different for you about Blackstar so that it made the top 3, as opposed to, say, how you viewed Bish Bosch?

Aside question, if, let's say, Walker would have made his album in a moribund state and then pass away sometime after its release, would your thoughts on the album differ in any way now?

I'm giving Whole Stories a 2.5. It was interesting I suppose, but it's not particularly engaging and does toe the line between music and sound/noise perhaps too much for me. I do intend to listen to it again at least once before the week is up though.

Ricochet wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Sometimes experimental music isn't music. It's just experimental. To my mind, experimentation is best when you find something cool and refine it.

I'd like to hear an example of experimental music that you consider to be either cool, refined, music, any or all of these.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
I just finished. Here's my Bowie rankings:

Spoiler: show

1) Low
2) Station to Station
3) Blackstar (RIP)
4) Hunky Dory
5) Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)
6) The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars
7) "Heroes"
8) Aladdin Sane
9) Lodger
10) The Next Day
11) Diamond Dogs
12) Earthling
13) Heathen
14) 1.Outside
15) The Man Who Sold the World
16) Let's Dance
17) Young Americans
18) 'Hours...'
19) David Bowie (1969)
20) Reality
21) Black Tie White Noise
22) Tonight
23) Pin Ups
24) David Bowie (1967)
25) Never Let Me Down

What's different for you about Blackstar so that it made the top 3, as opposed to, say, how you viewed Bish Bosch?

Aside question, if, let's say, Walker would have made his album in a moribund state and then pass away sometime after its release, would your thoughts on the album differ in any way now?

A fair question, given Bowie was clearly influenced by Walker in his final few albums, but especially Blackstar.
Spoilered because I don't want to derail the thread and my answer is directed at Rico specifically, but folks can read my ramblings if they wish.

Rico, I gave Arthur Brown a 4 out of 5, not a 4.5. Still mulling over Whole Stories.

Okay, question for the A Person/anyone who understands this genre of music well and knows more about what goes into this than I do:

Is Vanessa Rossetto layering different sounds incidental together or is she actually adding incidental music here and there throughout the field recordings? I can't find much of anything online about the artist or her methodology. That extra layer of context may or may not make a difference.

I just started listening to this, but I love field recordings, so I am already impressed. I'll post a more thorough analysis when I finish.

To answer G-Man's question, I don't know, but it sounds to me like it's entirely field recordings edited together and layered.

It's like GYBE but the actual music never starts

If I wanted to listen to garbage truck noises I would just open my window

edit: no offense I couldn't resist making a joke

triceratopzeuhl wrote:It's like GYBE but the actual music never starts

If I wanted to listen to garbage truck noises I would just open my window

Well, in AP's defense, I really liked it. I am fascinated by field recordings and love ordinary sounds recontextualized. I listen to a lot of this kind of stuff, and I think this is a fine example of it. I particularly like when quasi-musical sounds of the world (like the arcade noises near the end) are folded in to more organic sounds.

4 out of five stars.

And to finish out my reviews for Rico, Arthur gets a 5, Chuck Berry gets a 3 and Crowded House gets 2.

Whole Stories

I'll be frank right off the bat. I don't consider this to be music. Perhaps it's because I don't know enough about field recordings to identify the musical merits of them. Perhaps it's because I don't know enough about music to identify meter and form in non-traditional forms. Either way, I can only speak to what I know and what I know tells me that this is not music. Rather, it is auditory art that, at times, approaches points where it contains musical qualities. The sarcastic jerk in me thinks this is the kind of thing I would hear a glowing 10-minute segment for on NPR, leaving me to wonder what kind of strange people donate to NPR. The small percentage of me that digs weird art, however, identifies that there is a lot of effort in what Vanessa Rossetto did here. Editing and layering field recordings may seem more like a hobby than anything else to me but hobbies are oftentimes passion projects, so who am I to judge.

I wasn't crazy about the fading out to dead air only to be blasted by loud white noise every so often. If you're going to fade to silence, then I say it's time for a track break. I'm also torn on the artist's own voice appearing on the end product. Does this reveal her insecurity as an artist that she includes her own explanation of her craft? In the first track, she explains to a passerby what she's doing. The sarcastic jerk in me also can't help but wonder if Rossetto naming the album Whole Stories that includes her stating that "people need to hear whole stories" reveals a little vanity. Did she subconsciously put a subliminal message in her own project, as if she is trying to suggest to a listener that they should share this recording with others? These are all things I thought of after the fact though, so they didn't impact my thought processes during my listens.

During my listens, I grew a little weary because some of the droning, swirling, and higher-end noises threatened to mess with me. I have tinnitus- a constant ringing/high-frequency sound in the ear that can range anywhere from slightly bothersome to debilitating. I have it in both ears and it is rather mild. Some sounds, however, seem to aggravate it, causing sudden explosions of piercing ringing that drowns everything out (literally, like a bomb went off and all other sound drops out and slowly fades back in). Other times, certain frequencies start to mess with my equilibrium. At different times during this album, I felt like I was on the verge of one or the other of these maladies. It wasn't enough to make me actively dislike the album but it gave me pause before each successive listen.

Anyway, the first track seemed directionless to me. Some interesting sounds but I couldn't get a sense of any sort of intended journey. The second track was more interesting, though I was still largely indifferent. I liked the spoken portions, the stories that were told, whether they were trivial or not. The casino noises added that approaching-music quality. I can't remember which track it was but there was a sound that reminded me of The Dark Knight soundtrack, when the Joker was talking and building up to a climax. That sense of slow but haunting escalation left me longing for a sense of direction in Rossetto's album. It felt like a wasted opportunity.

Overall, this sounds like the kind of stuff that plays in arty rock music as the band slowly brings instrumentation in. It's all background noise. I can see how some people are fascinated by such background noise and wish to make it the star of the show. I didn't feel like it was done well enough for my tastes here. Perhaps if Whole Stories actually told a whole story or two, it would get a better reaction from me. It rates on the low side for me because I don't see this as music. Even as art, it doesn't engage me enough. It's an intriguing concept and could be potentially riveting, as I actually enjoy people-watching, but nothing grabbed a hold of me at all. Each time I finished the album I felt restless and needed to listen to something raucous to get my groove back.

G-Man Scale: 2.19 out of 5 (C)
Rico Scale: 2 out of 5

On the plus side, between this and Bisch Bosch I feel like I can nominate literally any album I want next round

The debate over what "is music" is largely academic. For me, any sound presented for the listener's enjoyment can qualify as music, but what we call it doesn't matter much. I like this kind of stuff, because I just love, and am fascinated by, sound. I love the sound of guitars, but I love the sound of non-musical elements in the environment just as much, and I enjoy listening to it placed in unusual contexts.

I have no issue calling it music. I don't think melody is a requirement by definition. I agree though that it really doesn't matter -- the intent is artistic either way.

Personally, for me the debate over what is music and what's not, and more largely what's art and what's not, often comes down to some idea of intention. I have no formal training in either music or philosophy, so I have to say things in general and unwieldy ways like that, but is a basic aspect for me. Intention is the difference between hearing a beautiful songbird in the forest, and recording it intentionally, or reproducing its song on a recorder. Intention is the difference between time, wind, and water creating a natural arch, and a sculptor painstakingly chiseling one. For me a fundamental aspect of art is the "experience", not moored to any particular set of rules, or preset by the artist's personal intended interpretation, or any such thing. Rather, I think the personal subjective experience, reaction, relation, interpretation, etc. of a piece is the most important.

This of course means that the usual "science" of a particular medium can be, or seem to be, entirely absent in a piece of art. Introducing some sense of randomness, indeterminacy, etc. with no "ordinary" sense of melody, rhythm, etc. It opens up a lot of ambiguity, yes, but just because something is art doesn't mean you have to like it. Or, in the reverse, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not art.

Musique concrete, as has been stated by Rico, is a genre that starts "concretely", that is to say, through concrete sources such as recordings. This is meant to set it apart from "abstract music" that is given birth in an abstract space, something a person will come up with and make concrete, rather than the opposite. These recordings are then used in various ways, they are cut up, layered, distorted, and so on, in ways the producer sees fit. Last year, a somewhat popular album that seemed to feature glitchy electronic music for the most part was made entirely from recordings of a washing machine.
So, as you can see, not all musique concrete as a technique/genre in itself sounds like this album. That said, many musique concrete artists such as Rossetto do tend to make music that might also or otherwise qualify as drone, noise, ambient, or sound collage.

To actually talk about the album itself and rate it, for me, my listening is a lot similar to Rico's. There are a few parts that reminded me of the more ambient parts of GY!BE, in terms of the way it sounded. As a relative beginner to the genre, the first track "this is a recorder" is a really good introduction to the genre and what it's about, thanks to Rossetto leaving in (or, I should say rather, intentionally putting in) her explanations to passersby. For me it is really what I am looking for many of the times I seek out musique concrete; beautiful use of recorded sounds to create ambiance with the pre-existing sounds combined with the distortion of such to create some new ones, to create compositions that are not just giving a sense of narrative or theme or emotion or any other "reason" for a musical piece, but one that incorporates the "concrete" aspect of the recordings. As Rico already pointed out, this was done in this case in part by using recordings of what seems to be more or less straightforward clips of conversations caught on tape.

I think i'd give it a solid 7/10, and to be generous, round that up to a 4/5 stars on the Ricosystem.

My high school orchestra director drilled into me the opinion that the only correct definition of music is "organized sound," which I think is better articulated by AP's description of intention. So I tend to be pretty generous about what I consider music, and this album is still close to the borderline for me but I definitely see intention and skill in the organization/production/juxtaposition of the various sounds. I do agree with G that there are definitely some parts that feel more musical than others, but overall I recognize/appreciate it as a work of art (and again I find it interesting on a more anthropological level as well). As for rating I think I'll go with a 2 out of 5.

nutella wrote:My high school orchestra director drilled into me the opinion that the only correct definition of music is "organized sound," which I think is better articulated by AP's description of intention. So I tend to be pretty generous about what I consider music, and this album is still close to the borderline for me but I definitely see intention and skill in the organization/production/juxtaposition of the various sounds. I do agree with G that there are definitely some parts that feel more musical than others, but overall I recognize/appreciate it as a work of art (and again I find it interesting on a more anthropological level as well). As for rating I think I'll go with a 2 out of 5.

I have heard that definition, yeah. I figure 1) "organize" as a word has some baggage, and 2) they are more or less synonymous since organization would be the result of intent, regardless of what that organization or purposeful lack of it happens to be.

Here is something I was thinking of yesterday: Grouper's (Grouper is the solo project of Liz Harris, her work is generally described with terms like dream pop, ambient, and experimental) album Ruins was recorded while staying at a house by herself in Portugal. She used a simple recording setup to do this, using only I think a 4-track, mic, and piano. At one point the power had been off due to a storm taking it out, and during the recording of the song "Labyrinth" it comes back on, causing the microwave to beep as it came on and it was captured on the 4-track. It's a gentle piano piece, ostensibly written before recorded, and yet the final recording includes that beep. Is the beep musical? It must be there intentionally, because she chose to keep that take and put it on the final album. But she also had no knowledge it would end up there beforehand. If she performed the piece live, would the beep be included? Or in that case would the incidental sounds of the room it is played in take its place? Do those sounds always take that place? Is the recorded piece of music a separate piece of art from the composition itself, and is the composition different still from future performances? And so on.

A Person wrote:

nutella wrote:My high school orchestra director drilled into me the opinion that the only correct definition of music is "organized sound," which I think is better articulated by AP's description of intention. So I tend to be pretty generous about what I consider music, and this album is still close to the borderline for me but I definitely see intention and skill in the organization/production/juxtaposition of the various sounds. I do agree with G that there are definitely some parts that feel more musical than others, but overall I recognize/appreciate it as a work of art (and again I find it interesting on a more anthropological level as well). As for rating I think I'll go with a 2 out of 5.

I have heard that definition, yeah. I figure 1) "organize" as a word has some baggage, and 2) they are more or less synonymous since organization would be the result of intent, regardless of what that organization or purposeful lack of it happens to be.

Here is something I was thinking of yesterday: Grouper's (Grouper is the solo project of Liz Harris, her work is generally described with terms like dream pop, ambient, and experimental) album Ruins was recorded while staying at a house by herself in Portugal. She used a simple recording setup to do this, using only I think a 4-track, mic, and piano. At one point the power had been off due to a storm taking it out, and during the recording of the song "Labyrinth" it comes back on, causing the microwave to beep as it came on and it was captured on the 4-track. It's a gentle piano piece, ostensibly written before recorded, and yet the final recording includes that beep. Is the beep musical? It must be there intentionally, because she chose to keep that take and put it on the final album. But she also had no knowledge it would end up there beforehand. If she performed the piece live, would the beep be included? Or in that case would the incidental sounds of the room it is played in take its place? Do those sounds always take that place? Is the recorded piece of music a separate piece of art from the composition itself, and is the composition different still from future performances? And so on.

This reminds me of Ricochet, whose second part had some noise right at the beginning, before the proper start of the composition (the piano slow ballad). It's now most likely removed ever since the 1990-something re-release of the album, but it exists on the cassette tape my father has and which was what I listened to all my childhood. This is documented here appearing to be clapping. I guess the same questions you posed could be applied here. If it's just noise, why was it left in there (at least at first), especially after extensive, intentional edits and mastering done in studio to release this "live" album? We even used to have debates on TD forums on whether we like, dislike or give a damn whatsoever that this sound is present, right in between to two parts of the album.

Then again, on one hand, I think this is actually an instance of a noise sound that's placed ahead of the actual, "musical" composition, instead of added to the integral mix of the piece; while unconfirmed, it could easily have been a member of the audience, finishing off clapping one beat later than the crowd. On the other hand, both Grouper's beep and the clap on Ricochet are petite moments of noise and seemingly out-of-place sound. I would call their generating in both cases sort of accidental, even if there was clear intent afterwards to leave it in there. More to the point, I don't think that much amount of questioning and philosophising, the way you did in your post above, is truly necessary for either of them.

Thanks, A Person, for giving us the opportunity to explore a variety of music that many of us had not tried before. For week 10 we move into the realm of electronic music.

Along with giving Marmot's album a listen, there are a couple other things I'd like to handle this week:

1.) Please respond to the current poll to indicate how you would prefer to proceed with the SAW thread moving forward from the options provided.

2.) If you would like, submit an album for the 3rd cycle or queue. If we vote to maintain the procedure as before, then any ineligible submissions this week will be delayed until the next cycle.

I'd vote C, but I'd also make it so one person can only have one Album in the queue at a time - once their first album finishes, they can submit the next one.

I voted for winners being able to submit albums the following week, because I have endless records I want to submit.

For this week, I'm going way back to a sort of guilty pleasure that I can guarantee no one else has heard.

My submission is: Pandora's Box - Original Sin available here.

Option A, continue as we've been. Despite the long individual wait, I think it's more fair to ensure we get a lot of recommendations from different people rather than a lot of recommendations from potentially the same people. There's also option C, but if the core of regular listeners and debaters here would keep submitting, we'd be looking at a queue of two-three months.

Anyway, Jethro Tull - A Passion Play. But it's the last time I'm submitting it.

I like the current system. Making recent 'winners' sit out a cycle adds a layer of immediacy to the next poll, as well as preventing the number of options from becoming overwhelming.

Voted Option A.

I'm submitting an album that's more or less diametrically opposed to Bish Bosch: All Hail West Texas by The Mountain Goats.

Metalmarsh hasn't posted in here since Week 1, yet here we are, honouring his submission.

Ricochet wrote:Metalmarsh hasn't posted in here since Week 1, yet here we are, honouring his submission.

If it's any consolation to you, Rico, my initial reaction to the first few seconds of this album was to giggle. I think I mixed up deadmau5 and Danger Mouse in my mind because quasi-ambient rave music was not what I was expecting.

insertnamehere wrote:Voted Option A.

I'm submitting an album that's more or less diametrically opposed to Bish Bosch: All Hail West Texas by The Mountain Goats.

That's a great album.

insertnamehere wrote:Voted Option A.

I'm submitting an album that's more or less diametrically opposed to Bish Bosch: All Hail West Texas by The Mountain Goats.

Good one!


I'm having trouble with this poll, I like all the options...


Anyway, I'd like to submit Bobby McFerrin's "Circlesongs."

Option A is fine with me. Though I also wouldn't be opposed to:

Quin wrote:I'd vote C, but I'd also make it so one person can only have one Album in the queue at a time - once their first album finishes, they can submit the next one.

I don't like Option B because I do think it helps to keep folks from clogging up the queue, and I say that as someone who had to wait during this last five-week grouping. Didn't bother me at all.

Clearly this group needs hip hop, so I've decided to nominate my favorite hip hop record, De La Soul Is Dead.

The youtube link to this week's deadmau5 says "video is unavailable".

MovingPictures07 wrote:Option A is fine with me. Though I also wouldn't be opposed to:

Quin wrote:I'd vote C, but I'd also make it so one person can only have one Album in the queue at a time - once their first album finishes, they can submit the next one.

I don't like Option B because I do think it helps to keep folks from clogging up the queue, and I say that as someone who had to wait during this last five-week grouping. Didn't bother me at all.

Clearly this group needs hip hop, so I've decided to nominate my favorite hip hop record, De La Soul Is Dead.

Not Stakes Is High?

I haven't decided between 3-4 5 potential nominations yet

triceratopzeuhl wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Option A is fine with me. Though I also wouldn't be opposed to:

Quin wrote:I'd vote C, but I'd also make it so one person can only have one Album in the queue at a time - once their first album finishes, they can submit the next one.

I don't like Option B because I do think it helps to keep folks from clogging up the queue, and I say that as someone who had to wait during this last five-week grouping. Didn't bother me at all.

Clearly this group needs hip hop, so I've decided to nominate my favorite hip hop record, De La Soul Is Dead.

Not Stakes Is High?

I haven't decided between 3-4 5 potential nominations yet

The run of four albums from De La Soul's debut through Stakes Is High is of such high quality that it is nearly unparalleled in all of music, IMO, so I wouldn't argue much with you, but my preference for them is as follows:

De La Soul Is Dead (5.0) > 3 Feet High and Rising (4.5) > Stakes Is High (4.0) = Buhloone Mind State (4.0)

I'd say I feel really firm in that ranking now, but it's definitely changed over the years. De La Soul Is Dead has grown on me big time.