The Syndicate

Maybe it's time for Omerta Mafia II.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:37 pm but who cares that much about winning, really? winning is only a consequence of the game, not the goal. like.... sure winning is great, but if you play mafia only to win then you'll only get to have fun half of the time.

It's the goal for me. Losing can be plenty of fun too, but only if I know that I did the best I could and was just beaten. There's respect and dignity in that. I wouldn't have much fun taking plays off on purpose and hurting my faction in the process.

I realize most people probably don't play this game with the same competitive mindset that I do, but that's where I draw my fun.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

It's not the sole reason you won, but it helped you. A more active thread facilitates a stronger civilian core (given enough opportunities with posts in the thread, they're going to tend to find each other more easily), and that will leave the people with no real civilian credit (such as but not limited to the guy with 20-some posts only providing half-relevant songs) exposed by process of elimination.

If you'd played in this game the exact same way you played in that one, you'd have been one of the people stuck in the POE pile as a candidate to be lynched.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:26 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

It's not the sole reason you won, but it helped you. A more active thread facilitates a stronger civilian core (given enough opportunities with posts in the thread, they're going to tend to find each other more easily), and that will leave the people with no real civilian credit (such as but not limited to the guy with 20-some posts only providing half-relevant songs) exposed by process of elimination.

If you'd played in this game the exact same way you played in that one, you'd have been one of the people stuck in the POE pile as a candidate to be lynched.

If I played in this game the exact same way I played in that one, nothing I would have said would make any sense.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

Not to intervene too much in this discussion (just here to pick up the results for the HoF), but I think we all know how that game was lost, the answer being human idiocy. From what I can tell, the civilians eliminated such an element from this game rather early on.

You would have not won the endgame with me alive and informed as a tracker. As in, 0% odds. Alternatively, you would have had very diminished odds to win alongside a confirmed (outed) civilian and a strong (however misguided in general) profile of a hunter throughout the game in a last 3 scenario.

I think this is venturing too far into the reductive fallacy territory.

When I play, regardless of alignment, I read everything before I post almost all of the time.

In this format (and yes, I think it's a format thing), I would have a hard time doing that. If I got lynched because I preferred to CATCH UP and it left me out of some exclusive club, I would mutter a hex on all of you.

I can't tell you how many games I've hosted where some civilians gave up because they couldn't keep up.

And I don't want to know how many games I played where the same was true.

It was S~V~S who told me something that changed the way I operate as a civilian, and it was for the best. These might not be her exact words, and I haven't always followed them, but she said something like: Listen more than you talk.

I won a hell of a lot more as a civilian by watching than I did by talking.

That's a loose guideline, granted, because your activity is going to be relative to everyone else's. But me having a back and forth with DharmaHelper never did anybody any good. And this game makes me wonder how much damage my back-and-forths have caused.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:43 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

Not to intervene too much in this discussion (just here to pick up the results for the HoF), but I think we all know how that game was lost, the answer being human idiocy. From what I can tell, the civilians eliminated such an element from this game rather early on.

You would have not won the endgame with me alive and informed as a tracker. As in, 0% odds. Alternatively, you would have had very diminished odds to win alongside a confirmed (outed) civilian and a strong (however misguided in general) profile of a hunter throughout the game in a last 3 scenario.

Yep.

And I completely defended you.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:50 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:43 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:20 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:32 pm Your second scenario sounds just like Vocaroo Mafia 1.

Exactly.

Do you think I won Vocaroo Mafia I because thread activity was low?

Not to intervene too much in this discussion (just here to pick up the results for the HoF), but I think we all know how that game was lost, the answer being human idiocy. From what I can tell, the civilians eliminated such an element from this game rather early on.

You would have not won the endgame with me alive and informed as a tracker. As in, 0% odds. Alternatively, you would have had very diminished odds to win alongside a confirmed (outed) civilian and a strong (however misguided in general) profile of a hunter throughout the game in a last 3 scenario.

Yep.

And I completely defended you.

Perfectly commendable (which I even did). A fine (or fortunate) mix of coasting, one-time gimmicking and overall strenuous civilian hunting.

Nonetheless, Vocaroo 1 should have been won the same way Vocaroo 2 was, via power play, in all except for the worst possible of universes. 800-post phases or snoozefest, regardless.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:47 pmListen more than you talk.

There's a place for that.

If everybody does it, there's no thread.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:47 pmListen more than you talk.

There's a place for that.

If everybody does it, there's no thread.

Listen more than you talk.

Not "not talk."

Is it harder to keep up in a Vocaroo game than in a text game? Absolutely.

Do I hear this crap in and after text games just the same? Absolutely.

How many times can you remember that someone said "Epignosis is quieter than usual?"

People have been saying that for literally years.

I made a reputation and when I go quiet, people assume I'm bad or up to something.

Well, I'm always up to something, but there you are.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:01 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:47 pmListen more than you talk.

There's a place for that.

If everybody does it, there's no thread.

Listen more than you talk.

Not "not talk."

That's what I mean.

If everybody listens more than they talk, then the thread by nature must creep along at a snail's pace because everybody is too inclined to listen and too disinclined to speak. There must be something to listen to. I firmly believe that the listeners benefit from having at least one loudmouth, because the thread builds itself upon that content and the responses it facilitates. Without the loudmouth, we get the Gatsby game.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:01 pm Is it harder to keep up in a Vocaroo game than in a text game? Absolutely.

Do I hear this crap in and after text games just the same? Absolutely.

I know you do.

What if everyone could keep pace with the thread though? What would happen?

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:06 pm I've never seen people complain about game play and after the game events as much as the syndicate--true story. ya'll a bunch of babies.

I think one of the reasons I was lynched was because I made assumptions since I wasn't caught up, even though I wasn't expected to catch up. Again, another assumption since I wasn't actually caught up.

But I also don't think there's a problem with voicing reactions, positive or negative. Both can be useful, even if both might not be enjoyable.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:04 pm I know you do.

What if everyone could keep pace with the thread though? What would happen?

If they can keep the pace in a fast-paced game? They have more fun and the civilians have an advantage.

If they cannot keep the pace in a fast-paced game? They have less fun and the civilians have a lesser [but still present] advantage.

If they can keep the pace in a slow-paced game? They have more fun and the civilians are at a disadvantage.

If they cannot keep the pace in a slow-paced game? They have less fun and the civilians are at a greater disadvantage.

I am afraid the problem here is that JJJ fun isn't often compatible with everyone fun.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:03 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:01 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:47 pmListen more than you talk.

There's a place for that.

If everybody does it, there's no thread.

Listen more than you talk.

Not "not talk."

That's what I mean.

If everybody listens more than they talk, then the thread by nature must creep along at a snail's pace because everybody is too inclined to listen and too disinclined to speak. There must be something to listen to. I firmly believe that the listeners benefit from having at least one loudmouth, because the thread builds itself upon that content and the responses it facilitates. Without the loudmouth, we get the Gatsby game.

No, there are more than two people to talk. You can listen more than you talk if you have a group of 12 or 15. You don't need one or two loudmouths to win. They can be helpful sometimes, but take it from me, they can be garbage too.

How many times have you dominated a thread as a civilian and lost?

Now don't concern yourself with losing. Instead, concern yourself with this:

How many civilians gave up because they couldn't keep up with you?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:11 pm 1. How many times have you dominated a thread as a civilian and lost?

Now don't concern yourself with losing. Instead, concern yourself with this:

2. How many civilians gave up because they couldn't keep up with you?

1. Considerably fewer than I've won.

2. A non-zero number. I'm sure if the general population here was asked that question, I'd see numerous hands raised. This is the argument I think has merit, not the one disputing that more activity is better than less activity for civilians in terms of win probability. I don't want people to have no fun. It is frustrating that my kind of fun doesn't seem to mesh with other people's fun. If I am winning a bunch of games and my own teammates don't enjoy the process, then it isn't worth it. There are multiple alternatives, and all of them ask me to have less fun.

And if it's unclear: civilians give up when they can't keep up, and they win with me anyway. They have less fun, the game is still won (usually).

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:09 pm
I am afraid the problem here is that JJJ fun isn't often compatible with everyone fun.

Lemme stop ya right there.

You are fun.

And more importantly, you have elevated mafia culture here to a level that nobody else has.

You have made me a better civilian...

...and you have made me a better mafia member because I often keep you around when I'm bad to work out how to outsmart you.

If that's not fun, I don't know what is.

I am talking about a very specific thing: A few people posting so much that others who have more limited schedules honestly- regardless of alignment- can't keep up and PLAY, and I believe reading all the posts is no different than seeing what everyone else did in a board game. I guess that, if you can't win without dominating the thread, are you really that good?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:15 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:11 pm 1. How many times have you dominated a thread as a civilian and lost?

Now don't concern yourself with losing. Instead, concern yourself with this:

2. How many civilians gave up because they couldn't keep up with you?

1. Considerably fewer than I've won.

2. A non-zero number. I'm sure if the general population here was asked that question, I'd see numerous hands raised. This is the argument I think has merit, not the one disputing that more activity is better than less activity for civilians in terms of win probability. I don't want people to have no fun. It is frustrating that my kind of fun doesn't seem to mesh with other people's fun. If I am winning a bunch of games and my own teammates don't enjoy the process, then it isn't worth it. There are multiple alternatives, and all of them ask me to have less fun.

You're a good man Jay. I made up Omerta to see what would happen if you only got four posts a Day. We only played it once.

I think economy in writing is a good thing anyway.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:22 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:09 pm
I am afraid the problem here is that JJJ fun isn't often compatible with everyone fun.

Lemme stop ya right there.

You are fun.

QFT


I think another thing people like is to be heard. Or that's what I like. You are often heard more than other players. That is what I think. But you are a good mafia player and an active mafia player. I suppose that's just how it is.

I care more about having fun than winning. But for me, having fun does not always mean playing hard and to win. So I realize being heard can't always happen. So if you hear me complain about such things, feel free to remind me that my behavior doesn't always correspond with what I desire.

Thanks y'all. I'll be in two game simultaneously pretty soon, and that'll be a good opportunity to tone it down and see how it feels. I mean, I've done it before, but I'll try again.

Jay, at the same time, I feel like a dick.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:54 pm Jay, at the same time, I feel like a dick.

No need. I want the people playing Mafia on The Syndicate to enjoy it, and if enough people can't keep the pace I set (understandably), then that's a problem. Besides, I would like to see other players beyond the usual suspects try to step into the spotlight and lead the charge. I'm sure someone out there wants to give it a shot.

I don't think it's a problem in any normal game I play. At least for me.

i've changed my mind and ive decided that both of you are wrong.

you're both cool and fun to play with and i love you both but you have way too much pride sometimes. you're both great mafia players but please accept that there's things you can still learn in order to improve

no one is saying you can't or shouldn't lead the thread or whatever. this has nothing to do with whether talking forever is an effective strategy for winning. the point that's being made is you need to be wary about your personal contributions to the thread don't prevent other active players from contributing to and enjoying the game.

That level of over-contribution is virtually impossible in a regular text game, because filtering and skimming are things you can do, but in a game with specialized communication methods like this one it can have a real impact.

like the moral of this story is literally just "please try not to post so much in future vocaroo style games" text based mafias have nothing to do with it, and also it's basically not relevant to anything important also, again, to reiterate, I love you both.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 pm like the moral of this story is literally just "please try not to post so much in future vocaroo style games" text based mafias have nothing to do with it, and also it's basically not relevant to anything important also, again, to reiterate, I love you both.

I know what you mean, Kylenator, no worries. I have heard many similar sentiments expressed though after regular text games too, because I am capable of blowing those the hell up too (1,450 posts in a game anyone? ).

I hope this doesn't look like some dramatic Thing. I dig what y'all are saying, and even if I don't entirely agree I am willing to chill out a bit. The new semester is starting soon anyway.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:40 pm I know what you mean, Kylenator, no worries. I have heard many similar sentiments expressed though after regular text games too, because I am capable of blowing those the hell up too (1,450 posts in a game anyone? ).

I can read more than I can listen. If it isn't a problem for me, then it must not be a problem at all. 1,450 posts? No prob.

okay maybe 1,450 posts is a *little* extreme but it's still manageable to sift through.

I mean I admitted I would do things differently in a vocaroo 3 (hypothetically). Do you want me to get on my knees and beg for forgiveness...?

You guys sure exhaust an argument.

I just read this post game and I think the point about posting has been made and reiterated and JJJ and dunya have acknowledged it and responded. Perhaps it would be best to move on from this point to other feedback about the game or other general discussion. Also Roll Tide.

I don't think JJJ and Dunya were the only problem. But that's not the point. I don't think we were trying to get acknowledgements or reparations either. This is simply a discussion, one where we're trying to figure out where the line stands or what the ethical actions are, and how it depends on the players.

It could easily be its own topic.

But I would agree that, concerning this game, we've exhausted it. And Roll Tide as well.

[mention]DrWilgy[/mention]
[mention]dunya[/mention]
[mention]Elohcin[/mention]
[mention]Kylemii[/mention] 1
[mention]Kylemii[/mention] 2
[mention]Made[/mention]
[mention]Marmot[/mention]
[mention]RadicalFuzz[/mention]
[mention]Simon[/mention]
[mention]Sloonei[/mention]
[mention]speedchuck[/mention]
[mention]Tink[/mention]

Hey gang, I'm going to assemble a highlights video for the game. It's pointless to save and compile every single recording, because nobody on this planet or any other will ever listen to that. If you could come up with 1-5 posts or so that you think are your best/most important/most interesting/most whatever, I will include them in the highlights. Also, if there is any particular posts from other(s) you absolutely want to see included, say so.

i didn't do anything important in this game other than breaking copyright laws by posting several illicitly obtained audio clips of Scooby Doo episodes

One area I remain fuzzy on (heh) was the RadicalFuzz lynch. Even though I was here for it, I don't quite grasp how that really got going.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:02 am Hey gang, I'm going to assemble a highlights video for the game. It's pointless to save and compile every single recording, because nobody on this planet or any other will ever listen to that. If you could come up with 1-5 posts or so that you think are your best/most important/most interesting/most whatever, I will include them in the highlights. Also, if there is any particular posts from other(s) you absolutely want to see included, say so.

So the ones you should put in there that I think were important are:
My hello post http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 51#p391251
My response to tink's claim (put her claim in there too) http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 06#p392306
And my call for JJJ suspicion http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 78#p392578

I didn't do much this game.

I got lynched by POE mainly. I didn't have town credit and most other options did. I floundered cause I got mad and impatient, but that's the gist of it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:02 am @DrWilgy
@dunya
@Elohcin
@Kylemii 1
@Kylemii 2
@Made
@Marmot
@RadicalFuzz
@Simon
@Sloonei
@speedchuck
@Tink

Hey gang, I'm going to assemble a highlights video for the game. It's pointless to save and compile every single recording, because nobody on this planet or any other will ever listen to that. If you could come up with 1-5 posts or so that you think are your best/most important/most interesting/most whatever, I will include them in the highlights. Also, if there is any particular posts from other(s) you absolutely want to see included, say so.

all my posts pls. kthxbai.

both of these interactions were fun.

Made your beautiful. Never change.

The highlights are being assembled.

00:04 - Epignosis and the host posts
14:31 - Jay and dunya fist fight on Day 1
24:03 - Marmot leaves a legacy
26:28 - Tink's heroic sacrifice turns the game around
33:49 - Simon is tired of his sister's lies
35:59 - Made's rap [sort of] rebuttal
40:24 - speedchuck's southern draaawwwl
43:54 - The civilians use process of elimination
51:44 - Made needs some motivation
54:23 - DrWilgy and RadicalFuzz being evil however the hell they please
56:42 - Elohcin rightly defends her son's honor
59:52 - The civilian role claims
1:03:37 - Credits

Click to access YouTube page and there are direct links to each of those times in the video in the description.

thanks for doing that jay.

when do vocaroo links expire?

Haha I hadn't listened to my own posts and I really do sound like I'm on stage, with that echo

dunya wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:48 am thanks for doing that jay.

when do vocaroo links expire?

Usually after a couple of months or so.