Mega Man Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Long Con]

What happened to Kyle's integrity? I thought he was one that people said would definitely never stoop so low as to kill JJJ first night, and to kill exclusively active players?

that wasn't actually the plan, even though it ended up that way. we targeted players who we thought would be the hardest to get lynched later on, and players who were on to us, which i guess ended up mostly being players who were already active.

Well you gave up your right to be let off the hook for it. Forever.

i've never needed to be let off the hook for that before so it probably won't effect my life much

What do you think of the idea that it's harmful to a game to kill off the active players?

[Kylemii]

What do you think of the idea that it's harmful to a game to kill off the active players?

sure but don't you think it's also harmful to the game to to expect the mafia to only kill players who aren't playing?

[DharmaHelper]

What happened to Kyle's integrity? I thought he was one that people said would definitely never stoop so low as to kill JJJ first night, and to kill exclusively active players?

that wasn't actually the plan, even though it ended up that way. we targeted players who we thought would be the hardest to get lynched later on, and players who were on to us, which i guess ended up mostly being players who were already active.

Well you gave up your right to be let off the hook for it. Forever.

i've never needed to be let off the hook for that before so it probably won't effect my life much

What do you think of the idea that it's harmful to a game to kill off the active players?

I'll take this one, Your Honor.

Yes it is harmful to the civilian game for the mafia to kill off active players. But the mafia have no obligation not to do harm to the civilians' chances of winning the game. Inactive civilian players do immeasurably more damage to the civilian cause, and have an obligation not to do so.

Which is why I hold that it is perfectly valid in the early game to lynch inactive players if you have nowhere more promising to go.

[Long Con]

I am down with lynching early inactives.

[DharmaHelper]

If *one* of DF/Dom/Soneji/Doc had voted to lynch Kyle, or hell, if DF/Dom/Soneji had voted to lynch me over Knees (Did DF vote in that lynch?) You're looking at a completely different game. And we the mafia would have had significantly more difficulty winning the game if we'd targeted inactive players, and left active players on the board to vote in and direct those pivotal lynches. Fuck that noise.

[Kylemii]

yeah i think both sides gunning for inactives early when there's too many of them would ultimately create a better game environment

[Kylemii]

fwiw this is actually the only time i've ever been in charge of deciding kills, most of the time i just let other people make the decisions,

[Quin]

yeah i think both sides gunning for inactives early when there's too many of them would ultimately create a better game environment

i would 100 percent use the night kill on inactives if it didn't mean instantly exposing myself as bad for doing so

[Dyslexicon]

I appreciate you coming in. Likewise Dyslexicon.

Thank you for the game, Epi!

[Dyslexicon]

Gg. Congrats mafia!

At least I had players vote for scum almost every night I could target, so that was pretty cool. *pats self on back*

I think town could’ve won with a bit more conviction and coordination.

In the future, maybe having dead players replace in could work? If they have no info it should be doable. A town without info can replace in to any role or faction. It’s a possibility, at least.

[Quin]

Gg. Congrats mafia!

At least I had players vote for scum almost every night I could target, so that was pretty cool. *pats self on back*

I think town could’ve won with a bit more conviction and coordination.

In the future, maybe having dead players replace in could work? If they have no info it should be doable. A town without info can replace in to any role or faction. It’s a possibility, at least.

It wouldn't work well because having deadies sub in would unintentionally provide information about their role before their death (if they have no info, that's proof they weren't an info role) or give the player an information advantage. It would probably be fine to let the Day 1 lynch sub back in though. In some cases the Night 1 kill too.

[novaselinenever]

Thanks for the game Epi.

[novaselinenever]

Gemini- novaselinenever

This makes me feel good.

[Bullzeye]

Well played baddies, you deserved this one Thanks for the fun game Epi!

[Dyslexicon]

Gg. Congrats mafia!

At least I had players vote for scum almost every night I could target, so that was pretty cool. *pats self on back*

I think town could’ve won with a bit more conviction and coordination.

In the future, maybe having dead players replace in could work? If they have no info it should be doable. A town without info can replace in to any role or faction. It’s a possibility, at least.

It wouldn't work well because having deadies sub in would unintentionally provide information about their role before their death (if they have no info, that's proof they weren't an info role) or give the player an information advantage. It would probably be fine to let the Day 1 lynch sub back in though. In some cases the Night 1 kill too.

Oh, right. I forgot role reveal doesn’t always happen here.

On my home site this is done occationally, if a game has a lot of inactives on one side like in this game. But our games usually feature more VT roles, and all flips are revealed, barring a janitor ability or something unique. I guess it depends on the game. I definitely see how it would be more problematic in many of the games on Cindy Kate.

[Turnip Head]

I mean really, the lousiest feeling as town is that we totally could have won despite the slew of inactives and systematic slaughter of town leaders, but we just didn't.

Still a fun game imo, and notably well balanced and hosted.

[Jackofhearts2005]

What happened to Kyle's integrity? I thought he was one that people said would definitely never stoop so low as to kill JJJ first night, and to kill exclusively active players?

Yo Kyle was so sad in BTSC about all that. He was all "This is so dirty I feel so bad but what're ya gonna do" and "Dangit now I can never say I'd never do this ever again dangit"

Lol well yeah. Like, that’s your meta. Nobody gets to argue they’d never do a thing we’ve seen them do.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Except Donald Trump because there are a lot of stupid people that are still allowed to vote.

[Jackofhearts2005]

yeah i think both sides gunning for inactives early when there's too many of them would ultimately create a better game environment

This is silly.

If mafia kills inactives and civs lynch inactives, you’re just starting the game late and hoping both sides just decide to give up their biggest tool for the sake of balance. We just finished a game where that didn’t happen. We just finished several games where that didn’t happen.

Epi has it right earlier. You don’t play, you don’t get to sign up. Then you don’t have a scenario where one team gets stacked with all the dead weight or one team decides to not go after inactives.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Hey people, don't forget to sign up for the next Full Game: Hogwarts Mafia! The Harry Potter game that's not actually a Harry Potter game.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 68#p488468

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’m glad the mafia team didn’t kill the inactive players. That isn’t their responsibility, and I wouldn’t have done it either in their shoes.

This is the first time I have seen bad guys/gals follow the chalk with their kill selection on this site, and they reaped the rewards. It was good play.

I’m glad Epignosis removed the inactive players. No hot wants to do that, but sometimes it is necessary. It isn’t fair to ask civilians to lynch them or mafia to kill them.

[Kylemii]

Epi has it right earlier. You don’t play, you don’t get to sign up. Then you don’t have a scenario where one team gets stacked with all the dead weight or one team decides to not go after inactives.

well yeah obviously that's the ideal, i just think it doesn't make sense to expect the mafia to prioritize killing inactives if the group as a whole aren't doing that as well

when town members are complaining that mafia is killing active players but then in the exact same breath trying to lynch sloonei or jack it just seems kind of disengenous.

if everyone that signs up plays there's no problem at all

[speedchuck]

thank you LC for depriving Speedchuck of his wincon and putting me back in first place B)

This actually unreasonably pisses me off. Apparently this competition isn't good for me. You can have it.

hey dude i'm sorry. i didn't really mean it. i was just caught up in the rush of victory, i don't really feel that way.

at the end when epi implied that the game wasn't over because of an indie wincon we decided to kill wilgy to try and make sure either one of you could get a survivor win if that's what it was.

i don't actually care about rival meta beyond it being a nice friendly competition with you and a reason to try slightly harder in games, if you want to retire rival meta that's fine. i'm sorry i was being shitty. you're my friend and if this rivalry thing is getting negative in any way we can kill it.

Nah, it's alright. I was salty about a few things last night, and like I said, being unreasonable. Enjoy your victory, dude.

I almost considered making a plea in the thread that last day, that we could just lynch Wily, and then I'd vote with the mafia to kill LC/Wilgy afterward. Had the post all written out, then deleted it. Kinda wish I'd posted it.

Anyway, mafia is a team game, it can't really be won by yourself. So rival meta doesn't actually make sense. Maybe we should quit. But I'm probably not going to.

You're my friend too, man. Sorry I got bite-y.

[speedchuck]

um don't i get a say in this

(tbh i don't because i don't think there will be enough games left in the year to let me catch up)

You're tied with me right now tho, one point behind Kylemii. Right? Or did I miss something?

[speedchuck]

I really want to hear Speedchucks thing about inactives

I don't recall what this is.

[speedchuck]

As mafia, I usually would rather kill inactives. But I let the rest of my team decide, because I KNOW it's against my wincon. To me, it makes the game more fun and interesting, and that's worth making it harder for myself. But I don't expect my team to make that sacrifice.

And here I was, playing the hypocrite and expecting the mafia team that I'm not even on to make that sacrifice. :P Thanks for pointing out my two-faced ways.

Mafia played a heck of a game. I don't think townies can lay the blame on inactives, or the mafia's 'selfish' kill choices. It was a good game. If anything, blame me. I'm pretty sure I was scum MVP, yep.

[speedchuck]

Last time I had uncanny mindmeld with Speed was Phenon. I was town, he was bad indy.

I think that lends credit to the idea he’s town here. The mindset is of a player without teammates or a player who doesn’t gaf about their teammates.

Second day of the game, [mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention].

[speedchuck]

(I mean, I wasn't a BAD indy, but still. I was like "Wow, Jack can read me perfectly!" And then I started acting like GoC Speed [AKA idiot speed] and it all went down in flames.)

[Long Con]

Pretty sure I was scum MVP.

[Long Con]

thank you LC for depriving Speedchuck of his wincon and putting me back in first place B)

This actually unreasonably pisses me off. Apparently this competition isn't good for me. You can have it.

hey dude i'm sorry. i didn't really mean it. i was just caught up in the rush of victory, i don't really feel that way.

at the end when epi implied that the game wasn't over because of an indie wincon we decided to kill wilgy to try and make sure either one of you could get a survivor win if that's what it was.

i don't actually care about rival meta beyond it being a nice friendly competition with you and a reason to try slightly harder in games, if you want to retire rival meta that's fine. i'm sorry i was being shitty. you're my friend and if this rivalry thing is getting negative in any way we can kill it.

Nah, it's alright. I was salty about a few things last night, and like I said, being unreasonable. Enjoy your victory, dude.

I almost considered making a plea in the thread that last day, that we could just lynch Wily, and then I'd vote with the mafia to kill LC/Wilgy afterward. Had the post all written out, then deleted it. Kinda wish I'd posted it.

I wish you has as well. I could have flipped the following lynch and made things REALLY interesting.

[speedchuck]

I wish you has as well. I could have flipped the following lynch and made things REALLY interesting.

You probably would have been dead by then tho

[ColinIsCool]

Simon boomed me hard. I had no strategy toward this game in mind and was just going to do stuff and let things fall wherever, but the omnipresent “Colin is bad D1” curse continued. I didn’t follow this very closely after, but good going mafia.

[DharmaHelper]

thank you LC for depriving Speedchuck of his wincon and putting me back in first place B)

This actually unreasonably pisses me off. Apparently this competition isn't good for me. You can have it.

hey dude i'm sorry. i didn't really mean it. i was just caught up in the rush of victory, i don't really feel that way.

at the end when epi implied that the game wasn't over because of an indie wincon we decided to kill wilgy to try and make sure either one of you could get a survivor win if that's what it was.

i don't actually care about rival meta beyond it being a nice friendly competition with you and a reason to try slightly harder in games, if you want to retire rival meta that's fine. i'm sorry i was being shitty. you're my friend and if this rivalry thing is getting negative in any way we can kill it.

Nah, it's alright. I was salty about a few things last night, and like I said, being unreasonable. Enjoy your victory, dude.

I almost considered making a plea in the thread that last day, that we could just lynch Wily, and then I'd vote with the mafia to kill LC/Wilgy afterward. Had the post all written out, then deleted it. Kinda wish I'd posted it.

Anyway, mafia is a team game, it can't really be won by yourself. So rival meta doesn't actually make sense. Maybe we should quit. But I'm probably not going to.

You're my friend too, man. Sorry I got bite-y.

This woulda been a real hoot.

[ColinIsCool]

Also, I died N1 in Mega Man Mafia on RYM too!

[Long Con]

I wish you has as well. I could have flipped the following lynch and made things REALLY interesting.

You probably would have been dead by then tho

They killed Wilgy first.

[Lunalee]

I’m satisfied to know I got everyone on the mafia team besides DH

Should’ve done the old “mafia gets priority replacements arguement” because it’s 90% true always

Also I’m dissapointed st the lack of activity the happened this game. I thought the setup itself was great Epi

But yeah I don’t even care but I’m gonna say it, it’s super shitty the mafia team laid low the entire game and DH basically had to carry them.

I really want to hear Speedchucks thing about inactives

Also Alien asked to be replaced (in scum chat). I don't know if any of the town inactives asked.

[Lunalee]

Yo, this is my first win as mafia!

[K-Ness]

Thank you for the game, Epi. Congratulations to the mafia for the win.

[Sloonei]

Thank you for the game, Epi. Congratulations to the mafia for the win.

How was your first taste of the Syndicate? I was dead pretty early, but I liked your perspective and it seemed like you acclimated yourself well. I’m always interested in hearing what people from different backgrounds think.

[sprityo]

I really want to hear Speedchucks thing about inactives

I don't recall what this is.

you said earlier in game about talking about how inactives are bad for a games health

[speedchuck]

I really want to hear Speedchucks thing about inactives

I don't recall what this is.

you said earlier in game about talking about how inactives are bad for a games health

They are.

Maybe you have all town inactives. It skews the balance because the votes aren't there.
If you have scum inactives, it's impossible to tell them apart from town inactives by hunting. So you have to lynch them one by one while mafia does whatever they want.
If Wily had been inactive, I would have been out of luck all game until Epi modkilled all of them and gave me an instawin.

I've considered several times becoming the "forum replacement" and just queuing up to be a replacement for literally every game. Just to keep the games healthier and more fun for everyone involved.

[speedchuck]

And yes, inactives make the game easier for scum most of the time, but at the cost of actual gameplay. The mods try hard to achieve game balance, and inactives mess that up.

It's more fun to play a scum game with everyone active than with inactives. It's the way that it's meant to be played. You'd complain if you were playing a first-person shooter game and a fourth of the NPC enemies just fell over dead as soon as you saw them. And then you had to go and shoot their dead bodies to pass the objective.

(I am so good at analogies you guys)

[DharmaHelper]

I don't get the "meta" of priority replacements having to be mafia.

If there are 4 people on my mafia team and one of them is inactive, we still get our NK, and at minimum we still get 3/4 of our other night powers, and we still get 3 players who are in BTSC, planning, working to win the game. I'm of the view that the inactive person's ability should be able to be used by the active mafia (or failing that, the town should be able to figure out that "X power hasn't shown up and X player hasn't been active, so X is bad. Got em")

Inactive civs are much higher priorty in terms of replacements to me. They have no one to pick up their slack, they're not contributing to Lynch talks, and they're not using their power to help the civs.

[speedchuck]

I don't get the "meta" of priority replacements having to be mafia.

If there are 4 people on my mafia team and one of them is inactive, we still get our NK, and at minimum we still get 3/4 of our other night powers, and we still get 3 players who are in BTSC, planning, working to win the game. I'm of the view that the inactive person's ability should be able to be used by the active mafia (or failing that, the town should be able to figure out that "X power hasn't shown up and X player hasn't been active, so X is bad. Got em")

Inactive civs are much higher priorty in terms of replacements to me. They have no one to pick up their slack, they're not contributing to Lynch talks, and they're not using their power to help the civs.

That's fair. I come from a place heavy with vanilla civs, so it's a bigger deal there.

To be fair, though, mafia players request replacement more often for the very reasons you outlined here.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Epi has it right earlier. You don’t play, you don’t get to sign up. Then you don’t have a scenario where one team gets stacked with all the dead weight or one team decides to not go after inactives.

well yeah obviously that's the ideal, i just think it doesn't make sense to expect the mafia to prioritize killing inactives if the group as a whole aren't doing that as well

when town members are complaining that mafia is killing active players but then in the exact same breath trying to lynch sloonei or jack it just seems kind of disengenous.

if everyone that signs up plays there's no problem at all

That’s a fair complaint.

I don’t think I was so much complaining about the mafia shooting actives as using it as a scumhunting tactic/complaining about the situation. Sorry if I came off otherwise.

There is a point where scum can choose between making a mafia game an actual game or not but only when there are way more inactives than here. The town was significantly harmed by inactivity but there was certainly a fighting chance for most of the game and the multiple mislynches show this.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Last time I had uncanny mindmeld with Speed was Phenon. I was town, he was bad indy.

I think that lends credit to the idea he’s town here. The mindset is of a player without teammates or a player who doesn’t gaf about their teammates.

Second day of the game, Jackofhearts2005.

Haha you should have tried lynching bad guys.

[speedchuck]

Haha you should have tried lynching bad guys.

Bro.

I provided the meta. Not-scum-chuck don't know how to hunt.

[Epignosis]

I’m satisfied to know I got everyone on the mafia team besides DH

Should’ve done the old “mafia gets priority replacements arguement” because it’s 90% true always

Except it wasn't: The only "priority" replacement was White, who never opened the role PM. Alien was the only person to ask for a replacement when I had willing and available people to fill in. DFaraday asked for one, but I had no success finding any.

I also want to know from Epi why we couldn’t replace into dead player slots. Whatever game mechanic was inhibiting that

Skull Man and Dust Man, to name two. These were also the reasons I couldn't allow a dead chat.

Like had I gone back in I would’ve been jumping down nova’s throat to be lynched. And especially Kyle on that last day.

That's another issue: While I'm not completely opposed to letting the dead come back in early on, making the mafia kill / lynch the same person who suspects them is unbalanced in and of itself. A fresh person hasn't formed opinions (or at least has not voiced them).

at the end when epi implied that the game wasn't over because of an indie wincon ...

I missed this. When was this?

It was at the very end, after the lynch. I said it in BTSC.

Honestly, and I hope LC knows me well enough to know that when I say this I still think of him as a friend and a good player and a good guy and all that, but I was surprised after all the cards were down with his actions at the end there.

Obviously he didn't know Kyle was Wily, or that Speed was Cossack, or that Speeds only requirement for winning was to have Kyle die, but Sniping me out when he could have and probably should have just let Kyle bite it is funky to me.

Even with Kyle dead, we (the mafia) would have still taken home the W. Though also something to consider is that LC had no way to guarantee that the tie would bend in a favorable way. Dumping his vote onto Chuck and then flipping the lynch onto me (an outted baddie) was in his view the smartest move. Even if it was in the end futile.

Well, you nailed it already, so I don't see why you'd think it was funky.

From my perspective, it was three Civs and three baddies, PLUS Gemini Man. The fact that the game hadn't ended with Jack's lynch meant, to me, that the Civs still somehow had a chance. I'm still not clear why it didn't end with Jack's lynch.

If the Civs had a chance, then certainly my power would play a part. I could force a baddie lynch. I had to choose to flip the lynch a half hour before the lynch was done. So, I could have chosen to do nothing, and then AT BEST we get a tie between Speedchuck and Kylemii. I asked about how ties were decided, but there was no answer. So I assumed a coin flip.

So my choice was between doing nothing, and crossing my fingers for a coin flip victory, hoping that nova or Gemini weren't going to make an appearance... or ensuring that a baddie died. I think if you consider that, you'll realize that there was nothing 'funky' about what I did. It was the only possible way to try to get a Civ victory. Right?

Your play at the end was, I believe, the most reasonable thing anybody in your position could have done.

I mean I get why you did it, and its no skin off my back. I think Epi was holding out to see if Kyle bit one. Which could have been possible after the Jack lynch if I guess certain people did or didn't vote, or if certain powers were used a certain way. I dunno. I'd have to re-check or w/e and see who was alive at what time. Like, if you guys had actually managed to lynch Kyle via coin flip or if Wilgy had shown up and lynched Kyle, there you go Cossack gets his win. Calling it early would've robbed him of that.

This is correct. I also don't rush (no pun intended) endgame scenarios, because I don't want to call it and end up realizing I overlooked a scenario in which the presumably victorious faction could lose.

[dunya]

Uh, I don't think a person's integrity should ever be questioned when lying as a mafioso.

And I don't think a mafia team's win should ever be questioned because they didn't kill off inactives instead of active players. That's a load of poop, I'm sorry.

Great game, Epi. Sorry not everyone showed up; you made a hell of an effort designing and balancing this game. Congrats mafia! Kyle had me totally fooled; I was convinced speed was bad since the get go... Hard luck civs, but those of you who were active played a good game (:

[speedchuck]

Uh, I don't think a person's integrity should ever be questioned when lying as a mafioso.

And I don't think a mafia team's win should ever be questioned because they didn't kill off inactives instead of active players. That's a load of poop, I'm sorry.

Great game, Epi. Sorry not everyone showed up; you made a hell of an effort designing and balancing this game. Congrats mafia! Kyle had me totally fooled; I was convinced speed was bad since the get go... Hard luck civs, but those of you who were active played a good game (:

a. I don't think anyone is questioning the win. Just complaining. :P

b. Shame on you for not recognizing no-idea-what-he-is-doing chuck.

Seriously. I cultivate these metas for a reason.