Steely Dan Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Matahari]

Y'know, it was pretty obvious when dunya survived N1 Anyway, GG, sorry again for inactivity

I thought the same! I targeted her on night 1 and no one else did. It made me antsy, but I’ve never played with her and she seemed to be accepted as town.

[dunya]

If you can't guarantee that, just ban claiming and call it a day.

I enjoy open setups more these days.

[dunya]

Y'know, it was pretty obvious when dunya survived N1 Anyway, GG, sorry again for inactivity

I thought the same! I targeted her on night 1 and no one else did. It made me antsy, but I’ve never played with her and she seemed to be accepted as town.

Well, at least mafia won't kill me N1 next game, they'll just push for my mislynch cos I'm still alive past N1.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I like being able to make a game where the good and evil roles are super obvious and being able to make it work by banning claiming.

But I also like challenging myself to come up with ways to allow it. Like in Hogwarts.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm talking about all those games I wanna host but I might get a job this month.

If that happens I have no idea how I'll host anything, with both work and uni.

[dunya]

I'm talking about all those games I wanna host but I might get a job this month.

If that happens I have no idea how I'll host anything, with both work and uni.

Co-host.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

At least this one will be an easy Hall of Fame update.

[Epignosis]

Old Skool doesn’t ignore evidence, and someone should have called out their claims of not using their powers. Omg I was half laughing, half screaming at my phone all end game!

Trust me, a number of us brought it up. And it should have been enough in that ridiculous nonsense of a MyLo. You did your job. Something to consider moving forward though -- if you have conclusive evidence, call it 100% instead of 80.

The problem with that is I didn’t know all the roles. There could have been a role that switches peoples targets. I literally was thinking about My Old School, ‘California tumbles into the sea’, maybe the ground shifts and all targets move. I overthink things.
Plus, like Dunya, I’m not too keen on role claiming unless I’m about to be lynched. It takes some of the mystery out of the game, you know? So I left both Dunya and Elo at 80% or more red. Next time, I’ll try to play your way and just assertively put it out there.

I appreciate this thinking, Matahari.

[Matahari]

Also, thank you DDL, for the good advice! I’ll adjust to the new way, the more I play. I already love the changes in voting, like being able to change your vote, even at the last hour, and bandwagoning on purpose.

Thanks Epi for a great game! I loved the way the roles were designed, and that they were gradually being revealed.

[Epignosis]

Generally a game should be designed so that revealing your role doesn't usually save you. And investigations are limited so town can't win with just them. Case in point: this game.

If you can't guarantee that, just ban claiming and call it a day.

Indeed.

I designed this game with that specifically in mind.

I believe it is befitting given Steely Dan's upbeat and happy melodies and imagery juxtaposed with lyrics of drug addiction, sexual improprieties, and betrayal.

The things that look nice can bite you.

[novaselinenever]

Also NFers are lazy as hell and will abuse loopholes even when that is not strategically smart.

lol

[Spacedaisy]

Indeed, in a game with legal claims -- just say "I watched dunya targeting nova". No need to conceal the juicy bits in a setup like this.

This is where the play difference comes in. That was considered unfair play in the tradition mata is coming from to straight forward say, I am this role and I know this information.

I suggested role claiming in my first game to Long Con in a civ BTSC and I will never forget him telling me that was poor form. I felt very silly. And I soon learned to play in that tradition of mafia and enjoy it. Then I had to unlearn it when we started mingling with the larger mafia community, lol.

[speedchuck]

I suggested role claiming in my first game to Long Con in a civ BTSC and I will never forget him telling me that was poor form. I felt very silly. And I soon learned to play in that tradition of mafia and enjoy it. Then I had to unlearn it when we started mingling with the larger mafia community, lol.

Is this the fabled "new way of playing mafia" that everyone keeps talking about?

[Spacedaisy]

I don't think so. I don't know what exactly people like Elo and Llama mean when they talk about it. But Mata is coming from like a skipped generation back lol, so that is what she is talking about I think.

[Spacedaisy]

Just a reminder Better Off Ted is in sign ups.

[Matahari]

I suggested role claiming in my first game to Long Con in a civ BTSC and I will never forget him telling me that was poor form. I felt very silly. And I soon learned to play in that tradition of mafia and enjoy it. Then I had to unlearn it when we started mingling with the larger mafia community, lol.

Is this the fabled "new way of playing mafia" that everyone keeps talking about?

Speed, back in my day, <insert granny smilie here> if you got info, you would try to build a case against someone, even knowing you’d probably get killed. It was the difference between leading a horse to water vs. dumping a bucket of water over the horses head. I think I will like the new way if I stick around long enough, I’m going to give it my best.
Building cases was fun, but it took longer. The new way is much faster.

[Spacedaisy]

LOL, I like that way.

Wifey, you played an excellent game. I got lost in the weeds in the middle of the game.

[speedchuck]

I suggested role claiming in my first game to Long Con in a civ BTSC and I will never forget him telling me that was poor form. I felt very silly. And I soon learned to play in that tradition of mafia and enjoy it. Then I had to unlearn it when we started mingling with the larger mafia community, lol.

Is this the fabled "new way of playing mafia" that everyone keeps talking about?

Speed, back in my day, <insert granny smilie here> if you got info, you would try to build a case against someone, even knowing you’d probably get killed. It was the difference between leading a horse to water vs. dumping a bucket of water over the horses head. I think I will like the new way if I stick around long enough, I’m going to give it my best.
Building cases was fun, but it took longer. The new way is much faster.

The 'old way' seems to have its perks. After all, Dunya played a great game. For her to lose due to night targeting strategy might seem unfair and poor sporting. I get that.
But I've always played the new way. That's why I like setting up games where claiming has hard trade-offs. (which this game definitely did.) But yeah, that's interesting.

[Matahari]

Thank you Daisy! It was fun, even after I died.

Speed, I believe I’ll get more used to the new way, it seems liberating compared to the old.

[Matahari]

Just a reminder Better Off Ted is in sign ups.

I signed up for it, looks new style, also signed for DFaradays game which looks old school.

[Sloonei]

Indeed, in a game with legal claims -- just say "I watched dunya targeting nova". No need to conceal the juicy bits in a setup like this.

This is where the play difference comes in. That was considered unfair play in the tradition mata is coming from to straight forward say, I am this role and I know this information.

I suggested role claiming in my first game to Long Con in a civ BTSC and I will never forget him telling me that was poor form. I felt very silly. And I soon learned to play in that tradition of mafia and enjoy it. Then I had to unlearn it when we started mingling with the larger mafia community, lol.

I’ve come to prefer games with restricted or no role claiming since I arrived at the Syndicate. I love the strategy that is forced by a player having information that they’re unable to share. And I also like games that have to be solved primarily through good old fashioned scum hunting, rather than being pieced together like a puzzle through role claims.

[Sloonei]

However, I am reminded that there was a bit of a kerfuffle surrounding the EoD 1 action and the flurry of vote changes and activity close to the deadline. A few people expressed frustration over this, and their frustration is not limited to just this game. I wanted to talk about that, but not while the game was going on.

I think these are valid concerns. I have noticed myself that a lot of games can go stagnant in the middle of phases and then crank up to 11 near the deadline. This might just be a natural thing; deadlines tend to be scheduled at times when people are most likely to be available, and most of us have obligations during those other hours. And the pressure and urgency of those moments forces people to think more critically about their reads and votes, so more content spills out. But it can very easily detract from the experience of the game when too much of the action is all occurring at one time. Anyone who’s absent in that time frame can feel left out, and that’s not what anyone wants.

But at the same time I don’t think there’s a scenario in which I would want to ask people not to actively play the game when they’re able to do so. If you’re online and you have something to say, say it. I’m just wondering if there’s a way we can reach a more balanced environment where players don’t feel like they’re being left behind if they miss out on a particular window of action.

[Matahari]

Maybe hosts can give a time period, example “host posts will be sometime between 6 pm and 10 pm est” on their game sign up page. To give players a chance to decide if that will work for them.

[Kites]

Long Con lynch!? I can only blame myself for not being in here. Would still have lynched a wrong player probably

Damn I tinfoiled dunya and Eloh after speed lynch but dunya was too convincing. Well played everyone, I’m glad it’s over now

[juliets]

Maybe hosts can give a time period, example “host posts will be sometime between 6 pm and 10 pm est” on their game sign up page. To give players a chance to decide if that will work for them.

Thinking about our international players I would rather see the host post the specific end of phase time like "7 pm edt" for example. A range of 6-10 pm is not a bad idea but even for me, here in the USA, it makes a difference as to whether it's 6 or 10, e.g. 6 is fine but 10 means I can't play. For those in Europe I think 9 or 10 would be a non-starter while 6 would probably be fine. I usually remember to ask the host pre-game what time the EOD will be so I can make an informed decision about playing.

Also, there is a way to always end the phase on the mark so the time doesn't creep but it requires some sacrifice for the host. I have found that having a co-host is very handy for this reason if no other, if the host isn't available to end the phase the co-host will be.

[speedchuck]

But at the same time I don’t think there’s a scenario in which I would want to ask people not to actively play the game when they’re able to do so. If you’re online and you have something to say, say it. I’m just wondering if there’s a way we can reach a more balanced environment where players don’t feel like they’re being left behind if they miss out on a particular window of action.

Majority hammer lynches make it where day phase can end at any time. Might help?

[juliets]

But at the same time I don’t think there’s a scenario in which I would want to ask people not to actively play the game when they’re able to do so. If you’re online and you have something to say, say it. I’m just wondering if there’s a way we can reach a more balanced environment where players don’t feel like they’re being left behind if they miss out on a particular window of action.

Majority hammer lynches make it where day phase can end at any time. Might help?

But doesn't that mean the host has to be here all the time since we don't have an automated way to handle it? Maybe I'm confused.

[speedchuck]

But at the same time I don’t think there’s a scenario in which I would want to ask people not to actively play the game when they’re able to do so. If you’re online and you have something to say, say it. I’m just wondering if there’s a way we can reach a more balanced environment where players don’t feel like they’re being left behind if they miss out on a particular window of action.

Majority hammer lynches make it where day phase can end at any time. Might help?

But doesn't that mean the host has to be here all the time since we don't have an automated way to handle it? Maybe I'm confused.

Most places I've played rules it by the honor system. Once a player casts the required vote, the players stop posting and wait. With the polls, it's even easier, because a player can just take a screenshot of the poll for proof.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm not sure if this is something that can really be solved by policy. My gripe was more with culture than policy, tbh. A lot of the time I just want to make a vote earlier then forget about the game, but people will often think that is "scummy" or "inactive". I wish we treated a 24 hour game as that: a 24 hour game. Not real time. Which means you can play at any moment of those 24 hours, depending on when you are available. If you want real time, play a burglary.

Sometimes I wonder if unchangeable votes weren't a good thing.

[speedchuck]

I'm not sure if this is something that can really be solved by policy. My gripe was more with culture than policy, tbh. A lot of the time I just want to make a vote earlier then forget about the game, but people will often think that is "scummy" or "inactive". I wish we treated a 24 hour game as that: a 24 hour game. Not real time. Which means you can play at any moment of those 24 hours, depending on when you are available. If you want real time, play a burglary.

Sometimes I wonder if unchangeable votes weren't a good thing.

I think you mean 'were'.

The idea that 'inactive' (not being around for phase end) is scummy does need to die, I agree.

[juliets]

I'm not sure if this is something that can really be solved by policy. My gripe was more with culture than policy, tbh. A lot of the time I just want to make a vote earlier then forget about the game, but people will often think that is "scummy" or "inactive". I wish we treated a 24 hour game as that: a 24 hour game. Not real time. Which means you can play at any moment of those 24 hours, depending on when you are available. If you want real time, play a burglary.

Sometimes I wonder if unchangeable votes weren't a good thing.

I think you mean 'were'.

The idea that 'inactive' (not being around for phase end) is scummy does need to die, I agree.

I usually just tell people my schedule and let them know if I won't be around. That's been called scummy a time or two but I don't want people to think I'm just not showing up.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

[juliets]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

[dunya]

one rule i wish was implemented a lot, lot harder is "always ask questions to the host via PM"

twice i thought the game was at risk of being broken. that would have sucked a lot after all the effort everyone put into it, and it could easily be avoided if people just respected the "don't ask questions in the thread" rule tbh.

[novaselinenever]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

I think he's just joking, and mostly making fun of himself and Mac for thinking that'd be an easy win then getting taken out so quickly.

[dunya]

i won't comment on end of days. but yes, i feel left out completely if i miss one end of day.

i thought i was the luckiest human alive when epi was ending days at 11pm my time. ELEVEN PM! and i was feeling lucky. puts things into perspective, eh? but i always know what i'm signing up to. mountain's mafia was my only exception where i just could not in any feasible way stay up to 9PM mountain time or wherever it is Marmot lives lol.

i do wish we have a few more european time friendly games like the start of this game before epi went back to work.

[dunya]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

I think he's just joking, and mostly making fun of himself and Mac for thinking that'd be an easy win then getting taken out so quickly.

yes, i think he was joking too. he never said that in our mafia btsc. i do hate that word though lol.

[juliets]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

I think he's just joking, and mostly making fun of himself and Mac for thinking that'd be an easy win then getting taken out so quickly.

Ok, I hope so because I never thought Jack was mean.

And nova I hear your dilemma. One reason I like 48 hour games more is at least people have more time to weigh in even if they can't be right there at EOD. It's still not perfect but imo it's at least a little better.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

Sorry, I meant that as “townies in general” not “the townies in this specific game.”

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I honestly don’t think there’s a fair solution to when deadlines should be.

Good time for North and South America? Too late for Europe.

Good time for Europe? Literally the middle of the night for Australia, or the crack of dawn. Americans are at work.

[Jackofhearts2005]

And yeah, I’m mostly making fun of myself.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I honestly don’t think there’s a fair solution to when deadlines should be.

Good time for North and South America? Too late for Europe.

Good time for Europe? Literally the middle of the night for Australia, or the crack of dawn. Americans are at work.

What if we just buy everyone plane tickets for eod?

[novaselinenever]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

I think he's just joking, and mostly making fun of himself and Mac for thinking that'd be an easy win then getting taken out so quickly.

Ok, I hope so because I never thought Jack was mean.

He's actually very mean. I've seen him kick dogs

[Jackofhearts2005]

I thought the mafia team was done. Mac lynched Day 1. Jack caught Night 1. That's half the team.

Hello ladies.

Previously on wolfchat...

Mac: Being mafia is so easy.
Jack: Yeah, townies are dumb.

Jack, honestly I think this is rude. We aren't calling you stupid for getting lynched so early and I would appreciate it if you didn't do it either. The game is over, it is what it is, there is no reason to call people dumb.

I think he's just joking, and mostly making fun of himself and Mac for thinking that'd be an easy win then getting taken out so quickly.

Ok, I hope so because I never thought Jack was mean.

He's actually very mean. I've seen him kick dogs

The way mafia friends who I met irl described me was “surprisingly nice,” whatever that means.

[Sloonei]

I think the discussion should be more than just about deadline times: the complaints in this game were about the flurry of activity around the deadline contributing to the feeling of being lost. I think this has more to do with the pacing of a game rather than its scheduling.

[Sloonei]

one rule i wish was implemented a lot, lot harder is "always ask questions to the host via PM"

twice i thought the game was at risk of being broken. that would have sucked a lot after all the effort everyone put into it, and it could easily be avoided if people just respected the "don't ask questions in the thread" rule tbh.

I agree with this. I forget what the question was, but I remember an instance in Mountains Mafia (this seems to be our go-to reference here) where a player asked the host a question in the thread and the host gave an answer. The simple fact that the host provided them with a direct and sincere answer told me that the player was town, because they would not have needed an answer to the question if they were mafia.

Mechanical questions can give other players clues about your alignment. Answers to those questions can give further clues. I always request private questions in my games.

[Jackofhearts2005]

one rule i wish was implemented a lot, lot harder is "always ask questions to the host via PM"

twice i thought the game was at risk of being broken. that would have sucked a lot after all the effort everyone put into it, and it could easily be avoided if people just respected the "don't ask questions in the thread" rule tbh.

I agree with this. I forget what the question was, but I remember an instance in Mountains Mafia (this seems to be our go-to reference here) where a player asked the host a question in the thread and the host gave an answer. The simple fact that the host provided them with a direct and sincere answer told me that the player was town, because they would not have needed an answer to the question if they were mafia.

Mechanical questions can give other players clues about your alignment. Answers to those questions can give further clues. I always request private questions in my games.

Counterargument: I’ve used in thread messages to the host as a wolf to look town.

Countercounterargument: We should be playing against the other players, not the host.

[dunya]

one rule i wish was implemented a lot, lot harder is "always ask questions to the host via PM"

twice i thought the game was at risk of being broken. that would have sucked a lot after all the effort everyone put into it, and it could easily be avoided if people just respected the "don't ask questions in the thread" rule tbh.

I agree with this. I forget what the question was, but I remember an instance in Mountains Mafia (this seems to be our go-to reference here) where a player asked the host a question in the thread and the host gave an answer. The simple fact that the host provided them with a direct and sincere answer told me that the player was town, because they would not have needed an answer to the question if they were mafia.

Mechanical questions can give other players clues about your alignment. Answers to those questions can give further clues. I always request private questions in my games.

Actually, I remember that. The player asked a question in the thread, not even directed to the host, and the host quoted it and answered them. Yes, a mafia would have known the answer to that, so it managed to unintentionally town clear someone because why else would the host have answered them?

And there's a lot of other instances where it isn't appropriate as well.

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] - I always lie about "pm'ing the host". Like pm'ing Epi for clarification about what my role can and can't do. It was a fake role. Of course I didn't pm Epi or get a response. That's still within game boundaries and you are getting that "host confirmation" you like without breaking rules.

[dunya]

I think the discussion should be more than just about deadline times: the complaints in this game were about the flurry of activity around the deadline contributing to the feeling of being lost. I think this has more to do with the pacing of a game rather than its scheduling.

Perhaps trying a game with the hammer voting that speedchuck mentioned or implementing an x-number of times someone is allowed to change their vote type of rule could try to help us find balance so people don't always feel overwhelmed at end of day. Just a couple thoughts. The latter is harder to implement if it's a crazy number, but something like 2-3 vote changes a day phase could work.

[Sloonei]

I think the discussion should be more than just about deadline times: the complaints in this game were about the flurry of activity around the deadline contributing to the feeling of being lost. I think this has more to do with the pacing of a game rather than its scheduling.

Perhaps trying a game with the hammer voting that speedchuck mentioned or implementing an x-number of times someone is allowed to change their vote type of rule could try to help us find balance so people don't always feel overwhelmed at end of day. Just a couple thoughts. The latter is harder to implement if it's a crazy number, but something like 2-3 vote changes a day phase could work.

I'm a bit hesitant to implement hammer voting just as a means to avoid this issue. Hammer voting is an entirely different format than deadline voting and changes a lot of things. That's not to say we can't implement it. The more variety we have in our games, the more fresh things will be.

Limiting the number of vote changes would also be an interesting tweak. My only concern would be enforcement of the rule (players don't always announce their votes, and so hosts/other players do not always see them), but I'm sure it could be managed. We'd just have to make sure it's emphasized.