Zootopia Mafia [Game Over]

[Jackofhearts2005]

I promise my saying I didn't care about the game wasn't a reflection of my enjoyment of it. I was just feeling overwhelmed and wanted adamantly to do as little as possible. I enjoyed this a lot. Thank you for hosting

Thanks for playing, Kyle.

[Epignosis]

If I'm going down, I want to go down just like that.

Masterful, LC.

[colonialbob]

Hey this is now two games in a row I've lost as town when we lynched mafia D1. So, uh, that's not great.

Well played LC. Definitely pulled the wool over our eyes.

Heh.

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] I think telling mafia we were all naive cops tilted the balance tbh. I'm not sure how we were supposed to catch anybody given that they only had one partner to avoid voting for and we had no way of actually getting real night results. Maybe them trying to force predator deaths would've gotten them lynched? Tough to say.

(None of that is meant to be sour grapes, I enjoyed the game and I think LC's win was well-deserved.)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

[Dyslexicon]

Grats, mafia!

Thanks again, Jack and Juliets!

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Thanks for the game, jack and juliets. I kind of wish I would have asked more questions about lylo/does town need to kill me...etc. or if it would have been announced if all the mafia were dead etc.

[Long Con]

Thanks for the kind words. I tried very hard this game, and it paid off so well.

It might be a bit much, but I want to talk a little about the game. Spoilered, so you don't have to read me talking about me, which may only interest me.

Spoiler: show

Epignosis did a great review of my game in the final hours, so I want to use his post as a basis for my thoughts.

Long Con

I'm starting with LC because I've had the most overall trust in him.

Hi Kyle. Great to see you.

So, a bastard game... that means we will be lied to by the host? Maybe we already have been lied to?

What troubles me most here is that LC is aware of the idea that the host is unreliable. I guess what troubles me more is that he directly addresses Kyle(mii), who would later expound upon how "math" proves there can only be one mafia left.

This was pretty NAI for me, I think. Maybe I wanted to suggest that I'm a clueless Civ kinda guy.

Eh. Moving on.

Wow, nice job folks. Sorry I wasn't around, the Fair ended around 6 last night, and I was too exhausted after four days of morning-to-night work to think about Mafia. I actually got caught up about three minutes after the poll ended and stared blankly at the screen for another minute before fully getting it that I was too late.

The reaction to the Day 1 lynch is fair.

Fair enough, there's nothing dishonest about this post. You just couldn't see me crying inside as I wrote it.

I was actually just contemplating the pros and cons of doing a mass claim, and reading about it. I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on this idea. When I was coming up in mafia (eons ago, LOL) info-dumping and role outing was a mod-kill offense. So this realm of role claiming and info-dumping is foreign soil to me. I know there are definitely pros and cons, and am interested in discussing whether we think it would be helpful, and at what point in the game it might be most helpful.

I don't think a massclaim is the best idea at this point.

This is an important post.

LC was quick to argue against people claiming so quickly. That leads to one of two scenarios:

LC is mafia and does not feel comfortable handling the fallout of such a thing.
LC is a civilian with a role he genuinely believes is helping the civilian faction and does not want to be killed for it.

More on this in a moment.

My angle here was to view things in the game from the fakeclaim standpoint. As far as I knew, I was the only Civilian cop and I didn't want to jeopardize that.

These votes are thin. This game is in thin water right now.

But blood is thicker than water, and there's some blood floating around here now.

Agree that Nut was somewhat of a surprising kill given the post restriction. But she was very unlikely to get lynched because of tipping the scales on Soneji.

Also Flash Hundred Yard Dash is a 'good guy' (probably), and nutella had the post restriction to prove it.

The anti-town faction(s) have fakeclaims, so don't get too crazy with this kind of talk.

There was a conversation about this. LC commented on how the mafia faction(s)(?) have fake claims. It was weird, but I remember discussing it.

For what it's worth, I don't think LC blurted this tidbit out into the thread.

Would a baddie LC bring this up? I thought it would seem like a "no", so that's why I did it.

Owner had their vote on you earlier, Kyle, following Epi and Sloonei's votes... now she has followed Dys's Sloonei vote. Maybe that's "casting a wide net", or maybe it's looking for a train to push all the way.

Didn't get the linki on this. This is Owner's town game, then... what does Owner's scum game look like?

More narrow. Not actually trying to think about all kinds of angles.
I probably don't read Owner perfectly, but I'm not bad at it. Likely town imo.

It was your very recent game together that Owner publicly got town cred for "casting a wide net". You have no concerns that she might be emulating this praised behaviour?

There is a degree of suspicion against Owner.

Tough to get valid suspicions going when you're bad. That was probably the most challenging thing for me. I took a cue from some other good players and asked questions about people's posts and opinions to seem like I'm involved and genuinely truth-hunting.

Ok, you want my reads, here's a rainbow:

Epignosis - I don't suspect Epi
Dyslexicon - Day 1 vote, townish presence
indiglo - Day 1 vote, looks good in-thread
Neverwhere - Don't know
Owner of a Lonely Heart - lots of bob-focus, slight nods to other possible cases but no follow up
MacDougall - not sure yet
colonialbob - I liked his defense against Owner's accusations
birdwithteeth11 - Not much here, voted off-wagon
Sloonei - not looking to lynch right now
Rej - some bad vibes, Miller claim is sketchy because it didn't go anywhere
Kylemii - possible scummate
speedchuck possible scummate

I'll [VOTE: speedchuck] aubergine now.

This is Day 2. I am never tip-top-teal-shit in LC's list Day 2.

What this tells me is that LC checked me and had a reason to believe I'm a civilian, which is what he's said all along.

I even accused LC of trying to get on my good side, but well, let's move on.

This rainbow was stressful. A couple of players had posted that I was lacking reads on people, so I cobbled it up fast and put it out there. It was a little weak, but it was pretty, at least. The main strategic point was to have Epignosis as a solid town-read, because my story was that I had checked him Night 1.

It was "oops" when Epi compared this Civ-read to my post earlier on Day 2, where I had done a little poking at Epi in a wishy-washy way. Epi was right to question this disparity, so I decided that my earlier post was just something to try and draw out baddies or some nonsense. I was fortunate that he didn't push too hard once I hinted that I had reasons.

Epi: what is the problem you have with those posts? Why are you concerned about it?

I don't recall the context, but LC asked me to clarify something, which, in light of the above, signifies that he genuinely trusted me.

Trusting Epi early was an important part of my cop-deception. I also had in the back of my mind that I would probably need to claim cop before the other "cops" in order to have the best effect.

I won't quote the next thing, but it was a large analysis of Owner that resulted in a "I would vote Owner," and then he defended my drinking from Owner who used it as a way to vote for me:

In the Scrimmage game with Epi, he was following his town circle. He had opinions.

Here, he's drinking. (not quite coffee)

He leaves an impression in my mind that there is something to be desired.

tl;dr

He feels different.

[VOTE: Epig] aubergine

Drinking is Epi's usual MO. It's NAI, he feels normal to me.

I also suspect Owner. I'll put a vote there at this time.

Just for the Rej stuff mentioned awhile ago or something else?

I also don't like the show you're putting on with the talking-to-self. It's an attempt to seem... thoughtful, maybe?

talking to self is nai, but you wouldn't have known that

LC pressed Owner further, who self-defended with a "you wouldn't have known that."

Owner kept bringing up "Scrimmage," and I don't remember Owner talking to self.

Maybe I don't remember it. I can look back easily.

More acting, I trust Epi because I cleared Epi. Again, accusing Owner was stressful for me because it had to be faked... whereas being a fakeclaim cop was easy because the story writes itself.

Hey, I see I have a few votes.. I'm at a concert so I can't address any issues. I can claim if need be, it's not a good idea to lynch me.

This is consistent with a cop who believes in himself.

Guys don't vote speed chuck, I am quite sure he is civ.

This is too.

Again, a mafia LC would have no reason to come in and beg for the life of speedchuck when LC also had votes.

Of course, that WAS the plan. I was lucky that enough people believed my claim-claim, and speedchuck was already who I had 'checked' on Night 2. I saw that he was going to be lynched when I checked in from the concert, so I decided to try to wait till the right point where I could try to save speedchuck, but be not in time before the lynch ends. I chose eight minutes or so, I think. Enough Civs were there to change it, but they just questioned my claim.

It was a claim from the old school Syndicate ways, as Epi talked about earlier, where I don't outright claim, I just hint without a doubt. Maybe an outright claim would have gotten more last-minute action.

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

Additional evidence that LC believes who he says he is.

This is a really decent review of the high points of the deception, and I appreciate it.

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

LC, this is when I was 100% sure you were a cop too. I had suspected it already.

Just for the record, THIS is how we used to info-dump on LP back when info-dumping was illegal.

That's how we do! It's probably obvious at this point who I checked, but Epi N1, speedchuck N2, bob N3. All town results.

This could be a mafia member trying to gain backwards credibility, but LC didn't play it that way: Recall that he called me good Day 2. He then tried to avert a speedchuck lynch.

This is remarkably consistent.

Thank you.

Hey, Zootopia is on TV right now!!! I haven't seen this since it came out in the theaters. Maybe it'll help.

What if the bunny cop has to find the otter for town to win? That's who she's looking for right now, and I think it's a pretty big plot point.

Someone was saying they thought... Rej?... was the Otter. But he's dead, so I dunno. The bunny cop probably just has to take out the mafia, I haven't seen anything that prompts too much speculation . Soneji was bad... there ARE baddies in this game.

LC commented on his own claimed role's win condition here.

I liked mentions of the bunny cop, because they gave an easy chance to drop a fat hint.

If one or more of the cops is bad, who and why?

From what I remember of the movie, with the exception of one, the cops are just kinda incompetent.

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

I disagree with you about myself and Kyle, but think Kyle is less towny than Indi, Dys and Epi.

Who would you put as your bottom two; the ones you want lynched first?

I think I missed answering this yesterday. At this time, I would lynch Owner first, then Kyle, Jinrou, Logic from that list. I still don't want to lynch Epi, bob, or Dys.

I have to remind myself why I voted for Owner before, but I'll [VOTE: Owner] aubergine at this time. I am home and well-rested this evening (unlike the last few), so I'll be around until lynch time.

This man is on a mission.

Absolutely.

I feel confident that bob is bad.

I disagree. I believe the baddies are in Owner, Jinrou, or Kyle.

LC didn't turn this around on me. He believes in what he's selling.

It was really easy from my point of view, because you and bob were Prey. I only needed Predators dead to win, and the early game had a disturbing number of Prey deaths already. I think I avoided "clearing" Predators, except the spur-of-the-moment speedchuck, or the final Kylemii. I needed you and bob to just not be the deaths, and it was stressful for me whenever you started suspecting each other!

LC, on what basis are you trusting that you've cleared anybody? Don't go the indiglo route, but if there is bullshit afoot, and there quite likely is, I want the civilians to be in front of it, not stepping in it.

I have reason to believe some things.

I invited LC to question his results, and he chose not to waver. Mafia would appreciate the out.

I was all-in on the plan to eventually reveal that I was Judy Hopps, "the only competent cop on the force". Having correct checks made sense for my fakeclaim, and the idea was suggested more than once by Jinrou, which helped foment the plan.

Well, I checked Kyle last night and he came back as Civ. So I can vote for Owner or give up the idea that I'm actually a competent cop.

LC on a mission.

You have no idea. The day before, I came THIS CLOSE to getting Kylemii lynched. Partway through that day, I realized that getting Jinrou or Owner lynched would mean I'd get a Prey killed the following night - I needed Kylemii lynched. You can find the point in the day when I realized it, and I came in with a Kylemii push. I failed, but if I had gotten Kyle lynched then I could have likely had Owner killed by Jinrou that night, and my plan was to come right out with a role claim and a red-check on Jinrou.

Instead, I had to come into a Day where Kyle was still alive, and I didn't need him to be lynched as much as I thought because it was LYLO... this was a different win con for me and I misjudged when endgame would be. Way better to try and lock in Kyle's trust by cop-checking him Civ and declaring my checks true?

Epignosis, if my cop checks are bad, then why are you a civilian in this game?

I anticipated this question, and I'm glad LC asked it, because it shows he's open to me being bad after all, even though he has a clear path to win as mafia.

Nah, just something I came up with to say. Gotta keep saying things to look Civ.

[Epignosis]

I don't know that I could have done anything to win given that I knew absolutely nothing about the setup, but I think it's a clever setup, and mafia having something more akin to an independent win condition is neat here. I can see how this was not a walk in the park for you, LC. Well done.

[Epignosis]

I enjoyed reading that, LC.

[Epignosis]

I shouldn't tell you this, but what sold me most was your confidence.

Which is what con is short for, anyway.

[speedchuck]

I was actually just contemplating the pros and cons of doing a mass claim, and reading about it. I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on this idea. When I was coming up in mafia (eons ago, LOL) info-dumping and role outing was a mod-kill offense. So this realm of role claiming and info-dumping is foreign soil to me. I know there are definitely pros and cons, and am interested in discussing whether we think it would be helpful, and at what point in the game it might be most helpful.

I don't think a massclaim is the best idea at this point.

This is an important post.

LC was quick to argue against people claiming so quickly. That leads to one of two scenarios:

LC is mafia and does not feel comfortable handling the fallout of such a thing.
LC is a civilian with a role he genuinely believes is helping the civilian faction and does not want to be killed for it.

More on this in a moment.

My angle here was to view things in the game from the fakeclaim standpoint. As far as I knew, I was the only Civilian cop and I didn't want to jeopardize that.

This is freaking important.

I have played (and maybe run) a lot of closed setup games in the past where the fake-claims are ill-defined or non-existent, and the 'fake claims will be provided' post in the OP is just a 'Don't massclaim guys' rule.
To be fair to the mafia team in a closed setup, it really, really helps to have fakeclaims. It makes for a less frustrating experience for the mafia, and a purer scumhunting game for the town. I think this is an important takeaway. Don't underestimate fakeclaims. I've seen less-creative players faint on the spot when forced to claim because they didn't have anything as backup. Don't be the host that requires mafia members to be creative.

༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ give fakeclaim

[speedchuck]

Like, seriously, that's legit. Well done [mention]Long Con[/mention] and [mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention]

[Epignosis]

I was actually just contemplating the pros and cons of doing a mass claim, and reading about it. I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on this idea. When I was coming up in mafia (eons ago, LOL) info-dumping and role outing was a mod-kill offense. So this realm of role claiming and info-dumping is foreign soil to me. I know there are definitely pros and cons, and am interested in discussing whether we think it would be helpful, and at what point in the game it might be most helpful.

I don't think a massclaim is the best idea at this point.

This is an important post.

LC was quick to argue against people claiming so quickly. That leads to one of two scenarios:

LC is mafia and does not feel comfortable handling the fallout of such a thing.
LC is a civilian with a role he genuinely believes is helping the civilian faction and does not want to be killed for it.

More on this in a moment.

My angle here was to view things in the game from the fakeclaim standpoint. As far as I knew, I was the only Civilian cop and I didn't want to jeopardize that.

This is freaking important.

I have played (and maybe run) a lot of closed setup games in the past where the fake-claims are ill-defined or non-existent, and the 'fake claims will be provided' post in the OP is just a 'Don't massclaim guys' rule.
To be fair to the mafia team in a closed setup, it really, really helps to have fakeclaims. It makes for a less frustrating experience for the mafia, and a purer scumhunting game for the town. I think this is an important takeaway. Don't underestimate fakeclaims. I've seen less-creative players faint on the spot when forced to claim because they didn't have anything as backup. Don't be the host that requires mafia members to be creative.

༼ つ ◕_ ◕ ༽つ give fakeclaim

Oh boo. Making up a fake claim isn't hard.

In Steely Dan, the mafia didn't have them. They had their roles, but they could claim anything they wanted (or, for the most part, claim their actual roles). Or they could pick a song I wasn't likely to use and go in a completely different direction, depending on their risk tolerance.

There was a game on Revolution Mafia many years ago run by our good friend timmer called "Liar's Club." It was essentially a closed setup in which people could say anything they wanted to with regard to their roles. I didn't even know what a "closed setup" was when I first played it, but damn did I enjoy playing it.

Fun fact: Only like one person voted Day 1 in Liar's Club, and timmer lost it and was ready to shut the game down because of the lack of participation. However, it was Christmastime, and all of us were traveling! Fun times.

[Long Con]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

[Long Con]

I shouldn't tell you this, but what sold me most was your confidence.

Which is what con is short for, anyway.

Nice! I'll have to remember that.

[speedchuck]

Oh boo. Making up a fake claim isn't hard.

Depends on the game and on how likely it is to contradict other roles.

[speedchuck]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

I had you cold.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Oh boo. Making up a fake claim isn't hard.

Depends on the game and on how likely it is to contradict other roles.

Yup. Some games allow for great fake claim creativity, and others by their very nature prohibit it. The latter style needs provisional fakes.

[Long Con]

Also, thanks to the amazing [mention]juliets[/mention] for keeping me company in the mafia chat. I never saw [mention]Soneji[/mention] .

[Long Con]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

I had you cold.

You mean, you were the sockpuppeteer who got me lynched Day 1?

[speedchuck]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

I had you cold.

You mean, you were the sockpuppeteer who got me lynched Day 1?

No, I baited you into nightkilling me on night one. But I was the oracle, and I revealed your role. Then you were lynched D2.

That's what I remember, anyway.

[Long Con]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

I had you cold.

You mean, you were the sockpuppeteer who got me lynched Day 1?

No, I baited you into nightkilling me on night one. But I was the oracle, and I revealed your role. Then you were lynched D2.

That's what I remember, anyway.

Yessssss you bastard!

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Oh boo. Making up a fake claim isn't hard.

Depends on the game and on how likely it is to contradict other roles.

Yup. Some games allow for great fake claim creativity, and others by their very nature prohibit it. The latter style needs provisional fakes.

There was LoL themed game on millenium forums I played in way back when. I did a semi-elaborate fake claim, but I messed up on the flavor of it. I think I did the flavor text instead of the announcing text or something. But yeah, if I had played the game more or something, maybe I would have gotten away with it.

[MacDougall]

Fucking well played you bitch.

[Long Con]

Fucking well played you bitch.

inorite?

[MacDougall]

[speedchuck]

Good game, gang. LC got to carry one.

I thought more than once about the Bravo-Echo game where you carried my corpse to the win since Day 1.

I had you cold.

You mean, you were the sockpuppeteer who got me lynched Day 1?

No, I baited you into nightkilling me on night one. But I was the oracle, and I revealed your role. Then you were lynched D2.

That's what I remember, anyway.

Yessssss you bastard!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Leaving this up in this forum while it still needs HOF updates.

[Kylemii]

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