Fallout 2: A Post-Nuclear Mafia Game [AMERICA RISES]

[TonyStarkPrime]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

[Seanzie]

ergo your logic sucks

Eh, you and I both know that isn't true. Everyone else will as well before long.

[TonyStarkPrime]

gonna hit my head against a wall

[TonyStarkPrime]

again

[Seanzie]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

[TonyStarkPrime]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

[TonyStarkPrime]

and marmot too frankly

[TonyStarkPrime]

sean read the first two days and apparently took diligent notes on chop's tactics

[Seanzie]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

[Seanzie]

sean read the first two days and apparently took diligent notes on chop's tactics

Kinda seems clear TSP knows I didn't talk to Chop in wolf chat... Hmm...

[TonyStarkPrime]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

[Seanzie]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

[Seanzie]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

Also, it is very clear that I was hesitant about that implication. It would make sense for BoS to have 3 if Redding has 2, but I clearly wasn't full-clearing Jack even in a world where you actually were Redding.

[TonyStarkPrime]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

all the other factions have two. so yes.

[TonyStarkPrime]

like this isn't even a "you really want to tell me" because it's confirmed to be true

[TonyStarkPrime]

hubo have the easiest win con, there were two of them and two of bos

[TonyStarkPrime]

whatever, put all this aside. the logic isn't good, you should know it's not good, I don't care

[Seanzie]

(like besides the fact that clearly you're examining claims and not actual alignments)

Was there any reason to doubt the claims of anyone town there? Of course the scum in the group were lying, but none of the town were, unless you want to try to tell me Urist is not the role he claimed.

jack who you said was probably confirmed town because "balance"

Yes, IF you were indeed Redding, then Jack would have been clear there. Now it is clear you AREN'T Redding, you're a wolf. You say you study math, but you seem to be having trouble with a pretty basic "if ..., then ..." statement.

The clear semantic implication is if I claim redding then jack is probably clear, but I'll let the whole thing go if you can explain how Jack is probably clear at all

Wastelanders, NCR and BoS are the big blue factions, all of which have the most dangerous win conditions. If all the green factions with easier wincons had 2 people in them, it would make sense for the blue factions (like BoS, who has to take all three bad factions - aka has the most dangerous enemies) to have 3 people. You really want to tell me that BoS and Redding having the same number of people in them makes sense from a balancing perspective, given BoS's enemies?

all the other factions have two. so yes.

Blue factions:
Wastelanders: 5
NCR: 3
BoS: 2, but reasonably could be 3.

All the other factions have town enemies and easier to satisfy wincons. Scum is going to pick off a lot of town, so the non-enclave part of all the green and light blue factions are much easier to satisfy than BoS's wincon. I can't tell if you're playing dumb right now to goad me or if you just literally don't get it, but the implication is reasonable. You also seem to continue to ignore that I wasn't sold on that, which doesn't look good on your part.

[Seanzie]

hubo have the easiest win con, there were two of them and two of bos

Uhh... what?

Hubologists have to kill at least half of Wastelanders+Arroyo. There were 5 wastelanders and 2 Arroyo, meaning that Hubologists needed 4 people dead to satisfy their non-enclave wincon. Tell me again that they had the easiest wincon? Wtf is this even?

[TonyStarkPrime]

I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Like what I'm saying is the implication does not rely on TSP claiming redding. It's also seperately unreasonable, but hindsight is 20/20 and I understand what your justification is for your premises. Again, I don't care.

[Seanzie]

I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

So if you truly believe that Hubologists have an easier wincon than Redding, how do you reconcile the fact that in the world you are claiming to be true, there is only 1 Redding, and they are an INVENTOR, meaning their only power is to give stuff to people in other factions? Did JJJ just mess up big time with balancing here?

[Seanzie]

@Urist I just wanted to let you know that I'm probably not going to do any more of TSP's ISO. If you have any questions or want to talk about anything, I'll check in periodically over the next 24 hours, but otherwise I think the game is just in your hands now (sorry about the pressure:P).

[TonyStarkPrime]

if jay went to careful precision to balance every single faction in an open game with claims allowed that's a way bigger design snafu than what you're suggesting but whatever

[Urist]

@TSP Where did you imply that you might be the reason for nanook's result on DOOM? I can't see it on d3.

[TonyStarkPrime]

@TSP Where did you imply that you might be the reason for nanook's result on DOOM? I can't see it on d3.

I don't know if I said anything directly but I followed him around on d3 and remember that I told you that I doubted that he was Westin when you told me there was a simplest option or something. I'll look for more details

[Urist]

@TSP Where did you imply that you might be the reason for nanook's result on DOOM? I can't see it on d3.

I don't know if I said anything directly but I followed him around on d3 and remember that I told you that I doubted that he was Westin when you told me there was a simplest option or something. I'll look for more details

Right, now I remember you saying something like "I think it's something else".

[Urist]

I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

So if you truly believe that Hubologists have an easier wincon than Redding, how do you reconcile the fact that in the world you are claiming to be true, there is only 1 Redding, and they are an INVENTOR, meaning their only power is to give stuff to people in other factions? Did JJJ just mess up big time with balancing here?

If your role is real then the only players you can't kill are slaver and jjj, i.e. your enemies. This is not a good argument.

[Seanzie]

I counted 6, sorry. Still the easiest probably. Redding coming close.

So if you truly believe that Hubologists have an easier wincon than Redding, how do you reconcile the fact that in the world you are claiming to be true, there is only 1 Redding, and they are an INVENTOR, meaning their only power is to give stuff to people in other factions? Did JJJ just mess up big time with balancing here?

If your role is real then the only players you can't kill are slaver and jjj, i.e. your enemies. This is not a good argument.

Oh, I suppose that is true. I forgot that the vig shot was conditional. At least I have extra vote power, and the shot can be used either on Enclave or as a limited info cop checl.

[Urist]

I kinda think poison is afk/slanking town. Would much rather kill chop or Marmot or Kyle or epi or lc

why do you think poison is town?

I think she's the conditional vig

Did Nanook track Poison to Wilgy on n1?? What does this meeeeeean

[Urist]

Oh Poison claimed conditional vig on d3. Nvm.
Not being able to ask why KZA was targeted instead of the person she called scum 300 times is so frustrating.

[Urist]

[VOTE: Poisynzie] aubergine for now bc that's the way I'm leaning

[Urist]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

[Seanzie]

[VOTE: Poisynzie] aubergine for now bc that's the way I'm leaning

Well, I hope you change your mind before EoD. I don't know what else to say...

[Urist]

It's also really hard for me to let go of the fact that Poison didn't vote at all ever.

[Seanzie]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

[Seanzie]

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

[Urist]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

[Urist]

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

[Seanzie]

Also because if I vote TSP and he ends up being town I'll feel like a jackass.

But I do think that Nanook had a role cop, and I think that if the scum inventor had given it to him then Made would have just claimed that.

There are a lot of other things as well, including the fact that I don't think Chop v TSP was bussing, Poison's posts were pretty scummy, the KZA shot doesn't make sense from her perspective, TSP has appeared relatively townie the whole game, and Seanzie's arguments today are uninspiring.

at least I made arguments. I repped into a hard game to rep into, with a slot that was not set up well and I tried.

Yeah sorry about that if you're town. You're putting way more effort into this game than I am, which is why I feel bad that I'm the one who has to make this decision.
Honestly I'm trying to look for reasons for why your slot would be town but I've got nothing. Can you point at anything you've done this game that you wouldn't have done as scum?

I wouldn't have resisted an Alison yeet two days in a row if I was a wolf when my scumbuddy was up for a yeet.

I shot down TSP's idea about ending the game yesterday rather than today since F4 is better for scum than F3. If I was a wolf, I would have taken my chances in F4 if it felt like town would have been up for it.

I also pushed hard for claims, which I may not have done as a wolf since the claims helped box scum in.

I also probably wouldn't have cleared Marmot based on balancing if I was a wolf since he was pretty heavily suspected and could have been a mislunch if I hadn't committed to always lunching TSP before Marmot two or three days ago.

[Seanzie]

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

I don't think scum would have been given two inventor roles?

Idk, I'm still not convinced that Nook got an invention. I'd have to go read what happened after Made claimed Zeke. How long was he alive for after he switched claims?

Oh, also I still think you should ask yourself why scum!Syn would come into the thread and claim to have vigged KZA, who was town. Neither Poison nor Syn had to claim when they did, and killing KZA did not make my slot look good at all, so it makes no sense for scum to pretend to be a town vig taking credit for that shot.

[Urist]

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

I don't think scum would have been given two inventor roles?

Idk, I'm still not convinced that Nook got an invention. I'd have to go read what happened after Made claimed Zeke. How long was he alive for after he switched claims?

Oh, also I still think you should ask yourself why scum!Syn would come into the thread and claim to have vigged KZA, who was town. Neither Poison nor Syn had to claim when they did, and killing KZA did not make my slot look good at all, so it makes no sense for scum to pretend to be a town vig taking credit for that shot.

Made claimed Zeke at about 24h into d3. So he was alive for another 24hish afterward.

Poison claimed vig d3, I don't think Syn had much of a choice especially since Frank had already used the shot. I don't think scumSyn had any option other than to claim the KZA kill.

[Seanzie]

I really think you should think about if Marge was Jack's fakeclaim. TSP seems to think Zeke was, but given that Made claimed something else first, got locked into a certain alignment, then reclaimed, do you think it is really likely that Zeke was indeed a fakeclaim given to scum, and not just Made scrambling?

If TSP is scum then it's probable that mafia got both roles as fakeclaims. But then why doesn't Made claim to have given Nanook the invention?

I don't think scum would have been given two inventor roles?

Idk, I'm still not convinced that Nook got an invention. I'd have to go read what happened after Made claimed Zeke. How long was he alive for after he switched claims?

Oh, also I still think you should ask yourself why scum!Syn would come into the thread and claim to have vigged KZA, who was town. Neither Poison nor Syn had to claim when they did, and killing KZA did not make my slot look good at all, so it makes no sense for scum to pretend to be a town vig taking credit for that shot.

Made claimed Zeke at about 24h into d3. So he was alive for another 24hish afterward.

Poison claimed vig d3, I don't think Syn had much of a choice especially since Frank had already used the shot. I don't think scumSyn had any option other than to claim the KZA kill.

But like... why would Scum!Poison do that? Especially if you think Frank had already shot, scum!Poison would be essentially committing suicide by claiming without reason if that was the case.

[Seanzie]

I've looked into the Nook thing, and yeah, I don't really have a viable explanation. I'm still thinking Nook didn't use an invention, and just faked a read on DoO. Or possibly Nook investigated DoO N1, got a "no result" D3, and figured that if DoO was a 3-shot cop or whatever Westin is, DoO would have actually done something N1.

I feel like Nook would have made some attempt to communicate that he was given an invention if he was, since that could help confirm someone.

[TonyStarkPrime]

will be here after I get shot

[TonyStarkPrime]

which will be after I finish paper and then take shower

[Urist]

I slept on this. I'm starting to feel like Seanzie would have better arguments if he were scum. He'd have come into the day prepared and knowing who he'd be going after, etc.
At the same time, TSP has done basically nothing but respond to Seanzie all day. I think he'd be doing more work to convince me if he were town.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I slept on this. I'm starting to feel like Seanzie would have better arguments if he were scum. He'd have come into the day prepared and knowing who he'd be going after, etc.
At the same time, TSP has done basically nothing but respond to Seanzie all day. I think he'd be doing more work to convince me if he were town.

arguments apply in the other direction too. also, I did iso sean and point out a few things, it's not like I did nothing :P

[TonyStarkPrime]

kinda wish I could do nothing tbh

[TonyStarkPrime]

don't say anything until I get a shot i don't have time right now