PSY 2310 - Cognitive Psychology [END]

[staypositivefriend]

How sure are you in your conclusion?

If you're sure, what is the reason you haven't placed a vote yet?
I'm not saying you should, but I'm asking about it to hear your perspective on it.

if i had to vote right now, i would vote for c4. i am still worried about you being a wolf. i'm unable to give any percentages beyond that

i haven't voted yet because i consider it common courtesy to wait at ~least 24 hours before placing a vote in a f3 scenario, unless the wolf is 100% mechanically confirmed to me. i also haven't voted because neither you or c4 have had the opportunity to fully flesh out and present your thoughts yet, and that's what i'm waiting for

[staypositivefriend]

@c4e5g3d5 Can you talk a little bit more about how you square this situation right now?

Do you still think SPF is definitely town? Does her long walls make you think she's town?

The walls? Oh fuck no, that's as squarely inside her wolf range as it gets. It's just her whole approach this game that's hard to see as anything other than playing by discovery. As a wolf I think she really needs to carefully plan everything, because if she doesn't she'll toss salads like I've seen her do before. Her wall today could easily be viewed as that brand of planned, and the dramatic wording is characteristic of her wolf game, but her play in early days less so.

I ignored dya D1 because I thought Seth spewed them. I abruptly didn't think Seth spewed dya on D2. Then I saw that opportunistic dichotomy.

@staypositivefriend I don't know what to do with this information but you definitely didn't include Vulgard's entire treatment of me because neighborhood.

there were a couple of posts from vulgard about you that i deliberately left out because i felt like they were overly WIFOM-y/posted with the intention to confuse anyone that read them in future phases. i touched on vulgard's treatment of you re: the neighborhood a little bit, but you're right that it wasn't really my focus. do you think that vulgard's treatment of you should spew you as a villager?

also, where's your head at? i want you to take a firm stance. am i a wolf? is dizzy is a wolf? if dizzy is a wolf, then what am i missing? help me see it! i feel like i'm playing a one woman 3-way right now, and i need more content from both of you

[Dyslexicon]

If her posts today were all the material I could read her with, I'd just straight up call her a wolf. But they're not.

You've earlier been very sure she's town. And you've also been pretty vocal about not finding me town. That changed last day phase though. I'm wondering what's going on in your head right now, and if you think this is a hard decision? If it is, what's making it hard?

[Dyslexicon]

should i be concerned about the fact that your post of misc thoughts has absolutely nothing to do with the large wall of text that i had just posted (and that you presumably read)?

I mean, I don't know what you want me to say about it that I haven't already. Do you expect the wall to be some sort of eye opener for me? You're discussing which one of me and c4 is the wolf. If you're town, I know who it is lol. What I'm concerned about is figuring you and c4 out. And I have to do that on my own. I don't think your big wall is AI for you. The summary of c4 interactions is cool, but I will also have to do my own reading of that, which I'm currently doing.

So what's the concern here or what do you want me to say about it?

how are you still regurgitating the same vague points you made from a dayphase or two ago (ie: "SPF had posts from when Vulgard was jailed that I disliked) without appearing to have any new thoughts about the literally 5K+ words that i wrote about this game?? i feel like you're just listing off a bunch of stuff from memory instead of coming up with new insight. most of these thoughts dont give me the impression that you're honestly putting a lot of thought or effort into coming to the correct answer here, and i'm being harsh right now because i need to see that genuine gamesolving effort from you for me to feel more comfortable

Because that was just a stream of consciousness some of the things going on in my head just there and then, without me doing any sort of due diligence. I hadn't put any other effort into it than just what had been buzzing in my head without any rereads or anything. Like, I haven't read all of your posts or all of c4's posts, so I'm well aware I'm missing content here. I'm doing that right now. I'm a slow reader. I'm probably a bit apathetic to protect myself from what feels like inevitable disappointment. And not to be shady, for real, but the sort of sharp/urgent energy you're coming at me with is probably similar to the energy I would have as a wolf in this scenario lolol.

All in all. I haven't made my mind up, for real. I know that's probably lame.
I feel like I should weigh Vul's ISO more than anything, cause that's how I caught the link to Dya, so in this game, it's the thing I feel is the most readable to me.
Reading c4's ISO and I have comments and questions. But tbh, it's not really scummy. But I doubt I'll find your ISO scummy too.

also i thought we went over the c4 self-sacrifice stuff yesterday - i was not shading c4 for not self-sacrificing, i was implying that c4 had mindset dissonance for implying that he wanted to die before the f3 but making a move that showed the opposite of that. the issue isn't him self-preserving, the issue is him making a big show about how he shouldn't be alive for the f3 only to willingly vote someone he thought was a villager solely for the sake of self-preservation

Ok, but I still don't know why it's interesting tbh. Town could also show this dissonance imo. Like "please kill me but also don't". But it's meh in any case.

we could go into the other points in this post (the dya stuff, for instance) but i honestly have already been over them so many times that i think you just need to carefully read my posts if you're actually a villager

Yeah, I will.

[Dyslexicon]

How sure are you in your conclusion?

If you're sure, what is the reason you haven't placed a vote yet?
I'm not saying you should, but I'm asking about it to hear your perspective on it.

if i had to vote right now, i would vote for c4. i am still worried about you being a wolf. i'm unable to give any percentages beyond that

i haven't voted yet because i consider it common courtesy to wait at ~least 24 hours before placing a vote in a f3 scenario, unless the wolf is 100% mechanically confirmed to me. i also haven't voted because neither you or c4 have had the opportunity to fully flesh out and present your thoughts yet, and that's what i'm waiting for

Alright. Thanks for answering.

[Dyslexicon]

Are we all here? @c4e5g3d5

I'm Euro, and full time work and all, so I'll be around probably 1-2 more hours. And I'll be around after work tomorrow as well.

[staypositivefriend]

@Dizzy -

to answer your question - yes. if you are a villager in the f3 of an intense game and someone that you are unsure about posts a large wall of text closely analyzing the near-entirety of the game and of another person that you're unsure about, then i do expect you to have SOMETHING to say about it, yeah. is that naïve of me? is it unreasonable for me to expect a post that dives very deeply into my personal feelings about the game to have some type of impact into how you're perceiving the game as well?

but even if it doesn't have an impact on you, the bigger problem was that i felt the post you made in the last page is a post that could largely be copy and pasted from 2 dayphases ago with very little changes, and it would have looked completely natural. most of the points were just kind of vague, and largely based on stuff that you've already said in the past dayphases. i do consider repetition and a lack of flexibility w/scumhunting to be a wolftell, especially in a f3 scenario where things need to Get Serious, so surely you can understand why that post from you raised my concerns, yeah?

i relate to the "being apathetic to protect myself from disappointment" thing - that's the exact mindset that i've been in that i've been making a point to snap out of today, and i guess a part of me does feel urgent and frustrated that you two have not done the same yet

also, the c4 thing is interesting because i've caught a lot of wolves in the past by observing dissonance between the way that they talk about their fate in the game vs their actions. c4's actions did not appear to reflect the mindset of: "i would like to die before the f3, please", and that was the cause of my concern

[staypositivefriend]

i am at work but i am "here". i should be online around the same time tomorrow, but my level of investment will depend on how busy work is

[Dyslexicon]

@Dizzy -

to answer your question - yes. if you are a villager in the f3 of an intense game and someone that you are unsure about posts a large wall of text closely analyzing the near-entirety of the game and of another person that you're unsure about, then i do expect you to have SOMETHING to say about it, yeah. is that naïve of me? is it unreasonable for me to expect a post that dives very deeply into my personal feelings about the game to have some type of impact into how you're perceiving the game as well?

I mean, I did have something to say about it though. But listen, first of all, it's huge, and it's all good and well that those are your feelings from your perspective that you have spent time mulling over. But that doesn't automatically mean that I also will have the same sort of investment in those exact thoughts or even be able to process these thoughts, since I'm me and I'm in a different situation, choosing between you and c4, and I also lack a lot of context. So what I need to do is to do my own research. That is more valuable to me than "I agree with this" or "I disagree with this", cause I don't even know cause I haven't read all of those posts anyway.

but even if it doesn't have an impact on you, the bigger problem was that i felt the post you made in the last page is a post that could largely be copy and pasted from 2 dayphases ago with very little changes, and it would have looked completely natural. most of the points were just kind of vague, and largely based on stuff that you've already said in the past dayphases. i do consider repetition and a lack of flexibility w/scumhunting to be a wolftell, especially in a f3 scenario where things need to Get Serious, so surely you can understand why that post from you raised my concerns, yeah?

I've been all over the fucking place the last phases, clearly. And if it's the same thoughts, it's because those are still mulling around in my head. I'll have new thoughts. I'm reading some posts for the first time now, quite a few actually.

And it doesn't really make sense that you would be so worried about me being so critical of you. If I was wolf, I'm pretty sure I could surf into a win with us voting c4. If I was a wolf, then I probably would be more invested in commenting and propping up your book about how c4 and not me is the wolf here. Don't you think? Or has this not struck you?

i relate to the "being apathetic to protect myself from disappointment" thing - that's the exact mindset that i've been in that i've been making a point to snap out of today, and i guess a part of me does feel urgent and frustrated that you two have not done the same yet

I mean, sure. But honestly, I wanted to be Nanook this game for real. I wasn't prepared for it, and now I'm in a (to me) really hard F3 and I hate having that kind of pressure. My life is such now that I have very little time and energy for mafia. That's just how it is. So I'm sorry if it's not up to standards, probably not up to my standards either, but this is as Dya kept saying a game with friends, so I'm trying not to stress myself out too much. I say, while literally constantly thinking about the game on my way to and from work etc etc.

also, the c4 thing is interesting because i've caught a lot of wolves in the past by observing dissonance between the way that they talk about their fate in the game vs their actions. c4's actions did not appear to reflect the mindset of: "i would like to die before the f3, please", and that was the cause of my concern

Alright. I guess. I haven't noticed the same, but I can see the argument.

[staypositivefriend]

And it doesn't really make sense that you would be so worried about me being so critical of you. If I was wolf, I'm pretty sure I could surf into a win with us voting c4. If I was a wolf, then I probably would be more invested in commenting and propping up your book about how c4 and not me is the wolf here. Don't you think? Or has this not struck you?

that has occurred to me, but i care more about seeing signs that you are genuinely trying to solve the game more than i care about how much you are or aren't pushing on me. you probably could have an easier time as a wolf by just vaguely agreeing w/me that c4 is wolfy and leaving it at that, so i might agree with you that your approach to today and your paranoia toward me is villagery, but that's so much more WIFOM-y than me just being able to look at your posts and say: "cool, dizzy is really trying to solve the game!", you know?

to be clear, i still think that you're probably a villager, and i don't mean to stress you out. i just feel like if there's any time to kick things into gear in this game, it's right now. i hope to see the results of your own readthrough

[Dyslexicon]

And it doesn't really make sense that you would be so worried about me being so critical of you. If I was wolf, I'm pretty sure I could surf into a win with us voting c4. If I was a wolf, then I probably would be more invested in commenting and propping up your book about how c4 and not me is the wolf here. Don't you think? Or has this not struck you?

that has occurred to me, but i care more about seeing signs that you are genuinely trying to solve the game more than i care about how much you are or aren't pushing on me. you probably could have an easier time as a wolf by just vaguely agreeing w/me that c4 is wolfy and leaving it at that, so i might agree with you that your approach to today and your paranoia toward me is villagery, but that's so much more WIFOM-y than me just being able to look at your posts and say: "cool, dizzy is really trying to solve the game!", you know?

to be clear, i still think that you're probably a villager, and i don't mean to stress you out. i just feel like if there's any time to kick things into gear in this game, it's right now. i hope to see the results of your own readthrough

Alright. Well, I am indeed reading ISOs now. And I'm an incredibly slow reader, which is extremely annoying. It's probably because I stop at every post try to take in all possible implications and possible interpretations and it's taking fucking forever, and I don't have forever. But I am trying.

[staypositivefriend]

im gay

[Dyslexicon]

im gay

Towny mindmeld

[Dyslexicon]

Done with my ISO on c4.

And to be absolutely honest
I have such a hard time seeing him as wolf. For some specific things.
Now, my tabs apparently refuse to open up in chronological order.
So my ISO thing won't be as fancy as SPF's.

- I first checked when c4 called Vulgard a confident town read. It was after both Arete and Marl had, which is significant. So no points there. Parroting a strong town read is easier. However, saying it first as a teammate is very rare at the start of the game.

vulgard seems like a villager

No he just is

So this. If c4 is a wolf, he's cooler than me. I don't think I'd ever dare this on D1 if it was about my teammate.
I mean, I could consider that it was a wolf plan to hard read Vul town and it was done with the intention of WIFOM.
But I feel like these kinds of posts are extremely hard to make for most if w/w.
I don't know how cool c4 is.
But it would surprise me if w/w.

She's one of the easiest reads out there if you know what you're doing.

Noting the bolded. What's your read there now, then?

Off the top of my head, her treatment of Tang was kinda sorta like town spf because of the dynamism alone.

Just a funny interaction that breaks my brayn because of this F3.

spf sunbae Vulgard 3/3 core
nut prolly threadspewed
Couldn't give fewer shits about dya unless Seth flips green
Couldn't give fewer shits about Hally and Zack unless KZA flips green

Alison
Amy
Arete
Dyslexicon
Marluxion
outed wolf
Tangrowth

Someone gimme their most urgent legacy top townie in that bunch

This mid section of what I guess is PoE are all town lol. D1.
That is not condemning to me. Tbh, it's probably more > town for most players. Depending on style, I guess.

dya v for thinking the scumreads on them are unfair

Why do you think this? Your takes have been fine so far, but this one stands out as unjustified to me.

Because correct scumreads aren't unfair duh. Apparently everything is NAI meta though.

I thought I would have something to say about this. Ough.

What exactly have you done that's out of your wolfrange c4?

This whole damn game

You saw me freeze on every single push I ever made in CoV
You saw me do jack shit to advance jack shit from my worldview in CoV
You saw me shamelessly TMI every controversial name in CoV

How tf

"I'm not like in CoV".
Fucking CoV.
So Dya was in CoV.
If I squint a little, I could see Dya helping c4 be exactly like not in CoV. c4 also shows awareness of how he was in a previous scum game and could then adjust. But this type of defence is more often town imo.

Obviously if Alison doesn't actually get in here and claim she's a wolf, but I'm still considering that a big if.

@c4e5g3d5 Can you talk about this? You had other reasons for reading Alison town than assuming she was PT. Why would she then be a wolf if she didn't claim PT, wouldn't those reasons still apply?

Why are you preflipping Dya as a wolf?

I... think they're a wolf

But I don't need to think they're a wolf to say something that looks like a save attempt looks like a save attempt.

This is pretty oof.
More so on Vul's end.
Again, I probably will get more out of ISOing Vul.
c4 looks fine a lot. Vul's interactions with him are more awkward.

I have a bunch of unsorted thoughts that I'll probably forget by the end of this conversation but

i targeted outed wolf as an angel target, not vulgard

Holup holup holup holup holup

Am I reading this correctly as there being two separate targets?
A block and a doc? Not the same target?

Which means Vulgard being town doesn't necessarily mean he was the kill
Which would've been nice to know before everyone started screaming difference check and not after

And Visor is still a weird ass kill but it would've been good to know that was what we were working with ya know?

But this though.
This is like half a derp.
c4 doesn't seem to understand how a jailkeeper even works.
I mean, derps are dangerous, maybe he derped as wolf, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that he would know as a wolf?
And this is a bit ...weird if w/w with Vul?

dizzy is literally the reason sunbae chose vulgard

he pointed out those vulgard/dya w/w looking things

dizzy does not do that if hes teamed with them, he does that as astute village

dizzy is not a wolf

Where was this

This I also find very interesting.
This is either very well done or very badly done if wolf lol.
Cause I would expect a wolf to have paid attention to me calling out literally their two living teammates in a link. Unless he just wasn't paying attention at all. Which honestly, that is plausible. And I shouldn't assume that they even talked about it in wolf chat. Cause maybe they just didn't or c4 didn't catch it.
But if he did catch it, it's very well done to pretend he didn't.

So I guess I land on he legit didn't catch it, but he could've skipped it even if wolf. I guess I'm not that important lol.

But I don't remember how much this was talked about.
I mean, both Sunbae and Vul did make a thing out of my link.
So should c4 not be able to pay attention to it, and wouldn't he be more likely to catch it as a wolf?
I would thinks so.

---

I guess these are my thoughts and comment on c4.

But I also have more general thoughts.
- Some places it looks like c4 is basically open wolfing. And from what I gather, he kind of did that in CoV. Fucking CoV. Saying "What if it's me?" and even "I'm in danger" meme today. It cringe.

And like, some of Vul's and Dya's interactions with c4 are ...not that good.

But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural.

Thanks, I hate it.

[Dyslexicon]

I hate it, but I need to force myself to go to bed.
I'm so sorry that I take forever reading. I wish I didn't. But I can't let a mafia game fuck up my sleep. I'm pretty new in my job, and it's very demanding. I don't have such a long day tomorrow though, and I will do my best to read SPF and Vul ISO as well. Hopefully there's time to do that.

[Dyslexicon]

Two more things:

- If c4 is wolf, it doesn’t make as much sense to me that both Vul and Dya decided to lolcat and basically give up? I don’t think c4 was in a position to carry, whereas spf was. Alternatively they just didn’t care I guess.
- Also, on D4, c4 really spent time clearing everyone but Syn and me + Dya. The way he plays it seems like a losing battle if wolf. Counter argument is maybe how else should he have played it? Opening PoE would be obviously scummy.

These things doesn’t fit very smoothly with a c4 wolf imo.

But I wish he was here more and fleshed out his thoughts more. I feel his style is different than mine, and maybe I’m basing too much off of what I would have done/thought.

@c4e5g3d5 Also, can you talk about your vote on Vul on D3? You made the vote 2 min after Sunbae outed. Do you recall what was going on in your head at the time?

[c4e5g3d5]

If her posts today were all the material I could read her with, I'd just straight up call her a wolf. But they're not.

You've earlier been very sure she's town. And you've also been pretty vocal about not finding me town. That changed last day phase though. I'm wondering what's going on in your head right now, and if you think this is a hard decision? If it is, what's making it hard?

Obviously right now I'd vote you, but it's a hard decision because you're not wolfy. I haven't had any actual complaints about your play for three cycles, and I haven't been able to seriously push you despite constantly having every reason to. In most gamestates this would mean the shrug answer is wrong and I made a mistake somewhere, but there aren't a ton of places where that mistake could be anymore.

I also have to weigh the fact that I'm in an inherently better position to understand how spf is out of her wolf range than how you are. Basically I have to do due diligence but don't really get how in this situation.

Obviously if Alison doesn't actually get in here and claim she's a wolf, but I'm still considering that a big if.

@c4e5g3d5 Can you talk about this? You had other reasons for reading Alison town than assuming she was PT. Why would she then be a wolf if she didn't claim PT, wouldn't those reasons still apply?

Was holding out hope for a good reason she ghosted, that's largely how I got to PR. I got that it was bad but then found a world where it was good. Call it plinko-boardy if you want.

Some places it looks like c4 is basically open wolfing. And from what I gather, he kind of did that in CoV. Fucking CoV. Saying "What if it's me?" and even "I'm in danger" meme today. It cringe.

In CoV I openwolfed insofar as being obvious and then outing before I was about to get dayvigged anyway. Sorry for being unfunny, but hey, I was funny in CoV

@c4e5g3d5 Also, can you talk about your vote on Vul on D3? You made the vote 2 min after Sunbae outed. Do you recall what was going on in your head at the time?

Only thing I recall off the top of my head was getting pissed at Marl for FPSing, sorry to disappoint.

[c4e5g3d5]

I recognize all the problems I'm facing right now and literally don't have a single clue what question I could ask that would address any of them

[staypositivefriend]

Two more things:

- If c4 is wolf, it doesn’t make as much sense to me that both Vul and Dya decided to lolcat and basically give up? I don’t think c4 was in a position to carry, whereas spf was. Alternatively they just didn’t care I guess.

hm, i actually have the opposite take on this. at the time that vulgard got outed, dya and c4 were both more or less consensus POE players, and their odds of living until the endgame were incredibly low. in a world where vul/c4/dya is the wolfteam, then vulgard WAS the carry. if the player that's intended to survive until the endgame gets outed by mechanics and the remaining 2 wolves are in the consensus POE, then it makes total sense to me why vul/dya would start lolcatting. they probably thought the game was a loss. i actually think they would most likely put MORE effort into playing up their fights for survival in a world where, say, i'm a wolf and they're trying to set me up for the endgame

- Also, on D4, c4 really spent time clearing everyone but Syn and me + Dya. The way he plays it seems like a losing battle if wolf. Counter argument is maybe how else should he have played it? Opening PoE would be obviously scummy.

i mean, in a world where you're a wolf in c4's position, who exactly do you push on outside of syn/dya/yourself? arguably, c4's push on you was an attempt to open up the POE and save you as a plausible mischop for the endgame, and anything beyond that might have been pushing his luck. there was even a moment where c4 threw me back into his personal POE and then backtracked when he got heat for it - not to mention that he put outed wolf in his poe yesterday in spite of STRONGLY townreading him before that point. regardless of c4's alignment, this line of reasoning is not consistent with what c4 actually did in this game

[staypositivefriend]

@dizzy - a couple of other things:

-you're generally correct that wolves don't tend to hard townread their partners at the beginning of the game, but you might be overstating it a bit by saying that it is "extremely rare". i almost lost the LYLO of a mountainous game for this exact reason - marluxion (a wolf) had strongly townread two other players at the beginning of the game, and both of them were wolves! i almost mishammered because of the belief that marl would not immediately TR his 2 partners, and if you're a villager then im warning you right now that putting stock into micro things like that is going to get you burned sooner than later

-same thing about putting too much trust in c4 not having enough knowledge about mechanics - c4 was clearly not very invested in this game past d1 and making assumptions about how much information he would have had about what went down during the night phases is effectively just speculation (and i mean, all of mafia is, but the speculation here is inherently even more baseless than other types)

-you said this in your post about c4: "But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural."

um.....excuse me??? you agreed with me on the last page that c4's flip on dya was wolfy, and then you not only did not mention it a single time in your ISO of him (from what i could tell), you went on to say that his flips have actually not been wolfy at all. what!? are we reading the same game?

[staypositivefriend]

the fact that dizzy and i are looking at the same ISO and coming out with absurdly diametrically opposed conclusions makes me doubtful and paranoid about everything lol

[staypositivefriend]

c4, what's the wolfiest thing that either me or dizzy have done today?

what's the towniest thing that either of us have done?

give me something to work with

[staypositivefriend]

i really appreciate the work that dizzy put into ISO'ing c4 and sharing his thoughts, but i don't understand how we both read the same ISO and there is virtually zero overlap in our observations, or conclusions, or our overall impressions of his posts. even the stuff he agreed with me on is missing from his analysis of c4. i just dont get it

[Dyslexicon]

i really appreciate the work that dizzy put into ISO'ing c4 and sharing his thoughts, but i don't understand how we both read the same ISO and there is virtually zero overlap in our observations, or conclusions, or our overall impressions of his posts. even the stuff he agreed with me on is missing from his analysis of c4. i just dont get it

It’s not really (in my head anyway) But I think I’m approaching this from trying to find the most sure sign of who is town. I think that is safer, as town can be scummy, but I’ve historically done better finding things only town would do.

And I haven’t done your iso yet.
And not Vul’s, which I definitely want to.
So I haven’t made my mind up.
KZA and Dya spew on you as town is still weighing on me.

On phone now and 1 am, so will likely not get deep into things now.

[staypositivefriend]

i really appreciate the work that dizzy put into ISO'ing c4 and sharing his thoughts, but i don't understand how we both read the same ISO and there is virtually zero overlap in our observations, or conclusions, or our overall impressions of his posts. even the stuff he agreed with me on is missing from his analysis of c4. i just dont get it

It’s not really (in my head anyway) But I think I’m approaching this from trying to find the most sure sign of who is town. I think that is safer, as town can be scummy, but I’ve historically done better finding things only town would do.

And I haven’t done your iso yet.
And not Vul’s, which I definitely want to.
So I haven’t made my mind up.
KZA and Dya spew on you as town is still weighing on me.

On phone now and 1 am, so will likely not get deep into things now.

i suppose that your analysis of c4 makes slightly more sense if you were explicitly looking for reasons to townread him instead of approaching it neutrally - it just worries me that all of the points that i feel suggest that c4 is a wolf based on his ISO alone are basically entirely missing from your own analysis of him. it also worries me that your feelings about c4 being a villager are predicated on logic that primarily feels like WIFOM to me. part of me wants to loudly go: "how are you missing all of this important stuff!?" but another part of me is worried that youre a wolf that is just leaving stuff out that you would naturally include as a villager lol

[staypositivefriend]

c4, if youre town, then i really need you to give me ~anything~. it can be the sloppiest, most badly worded posting of your entire life - i just wanna hear the raw towniness from you. the only reality where i can see myself townreading you in this game is if you bleed town, and you definitely are not going to do that at your current trajectory

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The poll timer is disabled for technical difficulties. You may refer to the link below for a more precise timer for the deadline. I will add this to the first post as well.

Click here

[c4e5g3d5]

c4, what's the wolfiest thing that either me or dizzy have done today?

what's the towniest thing that either of us have done?

give me something to work with

Your spew wall was written in the performative tone that you always have as a wolf
Sorta doubt you have the not melding w/ Dizzy => paranoia take as a wolf

I... don't think Dizzy has done anything particularly wolfy today
The me ISO looked genuine and also counterintuitive for w!Dizzy here

c4, if youre town, then i really need you to give me ~anything~. it can be the sloppiest, most badly worded posting of your entire life - i just wanna hear the raw towniness from you. the only reality where i can see myself townreading you in this game is if you bleed town, and you definitely are not going to do that at your current trajectory

Clearly not gonna get there on WIM, and I've never really had a towniness switch like that in general. Would doing more exercises like #5322 help you? Think I have a little time.

[staypositivefriend]

c4, what's the wolfiest thing that either me or dizzy have done today?

what's the towniest thing that either of us have done?

give me something to work with

Your spew wall was written in the performative tone that you always have as a wolf
Sorta doubt you have the not melding w/ Dizzy => paranoia take as a wolf

I... don't think Dizzy has done anything particularly wolfy today
The me ISO looked genuine and also counterintuitive for w!Dizzy here

c4, if youre town, then i really need you to give me ~anything~. it can be the sloppiest, most badly worded posting of your entire life - i just wanna hear the raw towniness from you. the only reality where i can see myself townreading you in this game is if you bleed town, and you definitely are not going to do that at your current trajectory

Clearly not gonna get there on WIM, and I've never really had a towniness switch like that in general. Would doing more exercises like #5322 help you? Think I have a little time.

yeah, sure. i just want to see your unfiltered thoughts in the rawest way that i can. to me it feels like you are presenting possibilities of either me or dizzy being a wolf without actually taking a stance in either direction

let's start here: if you had to vote right now, who would you vote for? if you feel uncomfortable with your answer, then talk about why. tell me what your plan is to get to a more confident answer. you have less than 24 hours to decide, at any rate

[c4e5g3d5]

let's start here: if you had to vote right now, who would you vote for?

Dizzy

tell me what your plan is to get to a more confident answer.

Yeah I know my viewpoint is heavily imperfect but the problem is I have absolutely no fucking idea how to fix it
My total combined F3 experience is one F3 where I tunneled onto the easiest misvote the wolf could have asked for and another where I was the wolf and casually collected the easiest misvote I could have asked for

Everyone familiar with Dizzy who might have helped me read him is dead
I asked nut to hold my hand through the Dizzy read in anticipation of something like this and it just didn't fucking happen
I tried to lead by example n shit by explaining my read on you
My read on you got Visor killed and then disappeared from the minds of everyone it might have been relevant to as far as I can tell
That's the plain solving stuff that I do know well aaaaaaaand it's gone

I don't know how to do these
You know who might have? Fucking Visor

[Dyslexicon]

Obviously right now I'd vote you, but it's a hard decision because you're not wolfy. I haven't had any actual complaints about your play for three cycles, and I haven't been able to seriously push you despite constantly having every reason to. In most gamestates this would mean the shrug answer is wrong and I made a mistake somewhere, but there aren't a ton of places where that mistake could be anymore.

I also have to weigh the fact that I'm in an inherently better position to understand how spf is out of her wolf range than how you are. Basically I have to do due diligence but don't really get how in this situation.

This is a little bit strange to me.
First of all, "not a ton of places" is an understatement.
What do you mean by this?
If you think you know that SPF is out of her wolf range, shouldn't you be just sure that it's me?
I mean, it's not.
And if you are town, you are wrong on SPF. It's really as simple as that.

Was holding out hope for a good reason she ghosted, that's largely how I got to PR. I got that it was bad but then found a world where it was good. Call it plinko-boardy if you want.

That doesn't really answer the question I asked.
I asked why she would be scum for not claiming, when the initial reasons you had for town reading her didn't have anything to do with her ghosting, but with her reaction to being read w/w with Gavial?

Only thing I recall off the top of my head was getting pissed at Marl for FPSing, sorry to disappoint.

Well, the question was how you went from being sure Vul was town to immediately voting him when Sunbae outed. Maybe looking at it will jog your memory?

[Dyslexicon]

I recognize all the problems I'm facing right now and literally don't have a single clue what question I could ask that would address any of them

What are the problems?

[Dyslexicon]

One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

[Dyslexicon]

@dizzy - a couple of other things:

-you're generally correct that wolves don't tend to hard townread their partners at the beginning of the game, but you might be overstating it a bit by saying that it is "extremely rare". i almost lost the LYLO of a mountainous game for this exact reason - marluxion (a wolf) had strongly townread two other players at the beginning of the game, and both of them were wolves! i almost mishammered because of the belief that marl would not immediately TR his 2 partners, and if you're a villager then im warning you right now that putting stock into micro things like that is going to get you burned sooner than later

I have also done it. But I do it on purpose for the wifom. I would say it is rather rare. I think c4's first town read on Vul is NAI, because it comes after both Arete and Marl has also outed their strong town reads on Vul (And Vul was acting very towny). But the phrase of "No, he just is town" is pretty ballsy as scum. I mean... it is though.

-same thing about putting too much trust in c4 not having enough knowledge about mechanics - c4 was clearly not very invested in this game past d1 and making assumptions about how much information he would have had about what went down during the night phases is effectively just speculation (and i mean, all of mafia is, but the speculation here is inherently even more baseless than other types)

It is speculation, you're right. And I do generally think it's dangerous to speculate what is going on in wolf chat, cause I just don't know. And also, I think it's easy to assume that wolves plan and chat more in wolf chat than they typically do. That being said, this did stick out to me, and I can't really skip over it either.

Is there a reason you skipped over this btw?

And also the point where it looked like c4 missed that I had linked Dya and Vul togheter?

^I think those two points are very interesting in my ISO.

And I realise now that if I'm going to argue that c4 is town to you, then you have to argue that I'm scum, which isn't going to go over well for me lol. But did these posts strike you at all?

-you said this in your post about c4: "But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural."

um.....excuse me??? you agreed with me on the last page that c4's flip on dya was wolfy, and then you not only did not mention it a single time in your ISO of him (from what i could tell), you went on to say that his flips have actually not been wolfy at all. what!? are we reading the same game?

Actually, you're half right. There are a few flips that doesn't make sense. The Dya one on D2 is one. However, he did explain this, and I did ask him about it specifically. And the Vul vote is still out of the blue kind of.

I mean, the things I was the most hmmm about, I asked about.

But him opening with a scum read on you, and then retracting it, I think that looks pretty natural. And this is very much a bias I have, but if I use the lens of "could a townie think this", I follow most of his game. This may be frustrating.

I have a few hours before work now. Going to start reading your ISO. And then Vul's. And then see who's landing on top here.

But ultimately, I don't know if it even matters. It feels to me like whatever team c4 is on is going to lose with how this is going.

[staypositivefriend]

One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

that's correct. if i'm a wolf then i want c4 to vote for you before i vote for him - it would be much easier to appeal directly to c4 and pretend like i "found" him instead of taking the harder route and trying to get you, who explicitly wolfread me at the end of yesterday, to vote for c4. the fact that i have been pretty harsh toward your posts today is also not the type of approach i'd be taking if my ultimate goal was to convince you to vote for c4

[Dyslexicon]

Everyone familiar with Dizzy who might have helped me read him is dead
I asked nut to hold my hand through the Dizzy read in anticipation of something like this and it just didn't fucking happen
I tried to lead by example n shit by explaining my read on you
My read on you got Visor killed and then disappeared from the minds of everyone it might have been relevant to as far as I can tell
That's the plain solving stuff that I do know well aaaaaaaand it's gone

I don't know how to do these
You know who might have? Fucking Visor

I never understood what your problem was with me in the first place.
If you speak about Nut, she did in fact explain to you several times why I'm town. I did as well. Literally everyone who knows me have.

This whole situation is just awkward.

Can you explain what makes it hard for you here when you have had such a confident read on SPF all game?
I know this is a strange question coming from me.

[Dyslexicon]

One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

that's correct. if i'm a wolf then i want c4 to vote for you before i vote for him - it would be much easier to appeal directly to c4 and pretend like i "found" him instead of taking the harder route and trying to get you, who explicitly wolfread me at the end of yesterday, to vote for c4. the fact that i have been pretty harsh toward your posts today is also not the type of approach i'd be taking if my ultimate goal was to convince you to vote for c4

Can you accept that I'm really scared though, if you're town?
Maybe it's paranoia, but gut feeling is not good right now.
Also, why is c4 still on trying to make a me wolf happen? Is it just cause he can't naturally walk back on his read on you? Is he hedging to not get outed?

[staypositivefriend]

@dizzy - a couple of other things:

-you're generally correct that wolves don't tend to hard townread their partners at the beginning of the game, but you might be overstating it a bit by saying that it is "extremely rare". i almost lost the LYLO of a mountainous game for this exact reason - marluxion (a wolf) had strongly townread two other players at the beginning of the game, and both of them were wolves! i almost mishammered because of the belief that marl would not immediately TR his 2 partners, and if you're a villager then im warning you right now that putting stock into micro things like that is going to get you burned sooner than later

I have also done it. But I do it on purpose for the wifom. I would say it is rather rare. I think c4's first town read on Vul is NAI, because it comes after both Arete and Marl has also outed their strong town reads on Vul (And Vul was acting very towny). But the phrase of "No, he just is town" is pretty ballsy as scum. I mean... it is though.

-same thing about putting too much trust in c4 not having enough knowledge about mechanics - c4 was clearly not very invested in this game past d1 and making assumptions about how much information he would have had about what went down during the night phases is effectively just speculation (and i mean, all of mafia is, but the speculation here is inherently even more baseless than other types)

It is speculation, you're right. And I do generally think it's dangerous to speculate what is going on in wolf chat, cause I just don't know. And also, I think it's easy to assume that wolves plan and chat more in wolf chat than they typically do. That being said, this did stick out to me, and I can't really skip over it either.

Is there a reason you skipped over this btw?

And also the point where it looked like c4 missed that I had linked Dya and Vul togheter?

^I think those two points are very interesting in my ISO.

And I realise now that if I'm going to argue that c4 is town to you, then you have to argue that I'm scum, which isn't going to go over well for me lol. But did these posts strike you at all?

-you said this in your post about c4: "But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural."

um.....excuse me??? you agreed with me on the last page that c4's flip on dya was wolfy, and then you not only did not mention it a single time in your ISO of him (from what i could tell), you went on to say that his flips have actually not been wolfy at all. what!? are we reading the same game?

Actually, you're half right. There are a few flips that doesn't make sense. The Dya one on D2 is one. However, he did explain this, and I did ask him about it specifically. And the Vul vote is still out of the blue kind of.

I mean, the things I was the most hmmm about, I asked about.

But him opening with a scum read on you, and then retracting it, I think that looks pretty natural. And this is very much a bias I have, but if I use the lens of "could a townie think this", I follow most of his game. This may be frustrating.

I have a few hours before work now. Going to start reading your ISO. And then Vul's. And then see who's landing on top here.

But ultimately, I don't know if it even matters. It feels to me like whatever team c4 is on is going to lose with how this is going.

-i mean, sure, it is a bold thing to do as a wolf, but i don't think that's a good reason to townread someone on d8 of a 107+ page game. i said that micro reads like that are going to backfire on you because any game of this length is going to have posts that look really good for any player - it's more important to consider c4's posting/progressions as a whole, imo

-i skipped over the mechanics posts partially because i dont really like reads that are based on mechanics in general, but also because i dont think that "c4 would have understood how the jailkeeper works" is a good way to townread someone, let alone someone that was barely invested in that point of the game. ftr, i thought the specific post that you quoted where c4 reacts to the news about vulgard was actually wolfy, because c4 talks about vulgard in a nervous, hedgy way after spending the rest of the game prior to that point confidently townreading him - it felt like he was struggling to talk about vulgard in general at that stage of the game because of TMI

-your point about c4 not realizing that you had pointed out that dya/vulgard were teamed also doesn't really resonate with me because c4 was clearly not closely reading every post w/a high attention to detail, and the discussion of your read on dya/vulgard did not extend very much beyond a couple of brief exchanges on d1/d2

-you don't agree that it's wolfy that dyachei and c4 spent d1 primarily shielding/being apathetic about one another, only for both of them to turn on each other aggressively and theatrically during d2?

[Dyslexicon]

@staypositivefriend I'm asking you to be patient with me.

[staypositivefriend]

One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

that's correct. if i'm a wolf then i want c4 to vote for you before i vote for him - it would be much easier to appeal directly to c4 and pretend like i "found" him instead of taking the harder route and trying to get you, who explicitly wolfread me at the end of yesterday, to vote for c4. the fact that i have been pretty harsh toward your posts today is also not the type of approach i'd be taking if my ultimate goal was to convince you to vote for c4

Can you accept that I'm really scared though, if you're town?
Maybe it's paranoia, but gut feeling is not good right now.
Also, why is c4 still on trying to make a me wolf happen? Is it just cause he can't naturally walk back on his read on you? Is he hedging to not get outed?

if you want my honest opinion, if you really are town, then you should ignore c4 completely from here on out. focus solely on my posts. focus solely on reading me

i got the impression that you came into today feeling like i must be a wolf based on visor leaving me as his final legacy and based on you being suspicious of me at the end of yesterday, and i have felt that much of your posting has been based around "confirming" your intuitive belief that c4 is a villager instead of evaluating us both from a neutral position and then starting from there. i feel like your gut points to me being a wolf but you're scared of voting for me and losing to the "easy" answer of c4. that's why i think you should stop caring about c4 (or about winning, in general) and just focus on whether or not you think MY posts are villagery, independent of everything

if you're a wolf then this post is gonna age so badly lol

[staypositivefriend]

@staypositivefriend I'm asking you to be patient with me.

i have been internally tinfoiling you as a wolf for hours now, so trust me, i'm not impatient, lol. i understand why it might be difficult for you to find me with confidence in a world where you are a villager, and i've been trying to make that process easier by being very vocal and very loud about my thoughts today. i'm sorry for being a bit aggressive/harsh with you at points though, i think some of my posting has been stressing you out more than it's helped you find me

[staypositivefriend]

i am stoned so if these posts were wolfy then i take no responsibility

[Dyslexicon]

if you want my honest opinion, if you really are town, then you should ignore c4 completely from here on out. focus solely on my posts. focus solely on reading me

i got the impression that you came into today feeling like i must be a wolf based on visor leaving me as his final legacy and based on you being suspicious of me at the end of yesterday, and i have felt that much of your posting has been based around "confirming" your intuitive belief that c4 is a villager instead of evaluating us both from a neutral position and then starting from there. i feel like your gut points to me being a wolf but you're scared of voting for me and losing to the "easy" answer of c4. that's why i think you should stop caring about c4 (or about winning, in general) and just focus on whether or not you think MY posts are villagery, independent of everything

if you're a wolf then this post is gonna age so badly lol

For what it's worth, I like this post a lot.

And then copy paste the last line lol

[Dyslexicon]

i am stoned so if these posts were wolfy then i take no responsibility

Coffee tell = stoned tell

And how where they townier than anything else you posted today lol

[staypositivefriend]

i am stoned so if these posts were wolfy then i take no responsibility

Coffee tell = stoned tell

And how where they townier than anything else you posted today lol

i realized that as a villager you primarily make reads based on vibing w/people and getting into the same headspace as them

and i havent really done that today - i've been kinda tense w/my replies to you and ive been operating with Cold Hard Facts, because that's the way my brain solves 3-ways

so fypov as a villager i can see why you would see the posts where im more "open" and less tense as villagery for me, even though i feel like theyre wolfy because im essentially just rambling lol

maybe it's villagery for you to find those posts villagery in the first place, but i feel like that's a shaky read

[staypositivefriend]

i'm going to bed. i'll be here in like 8-9 hours, or whenever i get some downtime at work. i'll place my vote at 5:00 PM EST at the very latest. goodnight

[Dyslexicon]

Oki, I guess I should do the Vul thing.

SPF's ISO so far is like fiiiine, and she's probably more flowy than roboty, if I should look at that aspect of it.

[Dyslexicon]

@c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

[c4e5g3d5]

@c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

I'm here
Considering snapvoting you just to get my mind off of this game

[Dyslexicon]

@c4e5g3d5 Let me know when you're around.

I'm here
Considering snapvoting you just to get my mind off of this game

Well, yes. That is what I was wondering. If you do this, you will lose the game, no matter your alignment though. You may or may not know this. =p

What are the things you're weighing or considering? Cause you haven't really said much about that.