AtLA post-game (mafia win)

[Seanzie]

My advice is to label things clearly for players, or add a depresciption along with what weird term you want to use.

Either say (Mafia has a mass anti claim one use ability) or (Mafia has a soup kill. *soup kill is blah blah blah*)

Okay, yes. That I can agree with.

[DaughterOfOmega]

I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

I can't express how much I hate the conclusion of your post. You say town needs a leader, but for example let's take me, becoming a good leader is impossible for a player like myself who isn't able to be informed. If I was town this game, I'd be leading under the falsehood that I understood the anti claim mechanic, and would ruin town.

It's crazy to say "Well the vets just need to let everyone know and be the leader." You are just gatekeeping and making it harder on others.

[Guillotine]

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

I called out what Axehole did and was met with "there was no violation of any rules" as an answer from Nanook and I was dumbfounded, but today I went to check the rules and there is nothing about OGI here at the syndicate, so it is really up to the host to incorporate anti-OGI rules.

I can't believe what I'm gonna say but it was not Nanook's fault, it is just not part of the syndicate rules to consider OGI "punishable", and it is up to every individual host to enforce those rules for their own games.

I personally would have warned Axe for the first offense and modkilled him for the second but that is not an official procedure in this community, unless I missed those rules somewhere.

As for the soupkill, soupkills punish claims, if you claim you get punished for it. Straight up claiming, softing and breadcrumbing is part of that.
I incorporated them in my games but mafia can only claim true claims or softs. They cannot just guess a role, there has to be proof of claim to kill it.

[Guillotine]

Ooops, answered inside the quote


I called out what Axehole did and was met with "there was no violation of any rules" as an answer from Nanook and I was dumbfounded, but today I went to check the rules and there is nothing about OGI here at the syndicate, so it is really up to the host to incorporate anti-OGI rules.

I can't believe what I'm gonna say but it was not Nanook's fault, it is just not part of the syndicate rules to consider OGI "punishable", and it is up to every individual host to enforce those rules for their own games.

I personally would have warned Axe for the first offense and modkilled him for the second but that is not an official procedure in this community, unless I missed those rules somewhere.

As for the soupkill, soupkills punish claims, if you claim you get punished for it. Straight up claiming, softing and breadcrumbing is part of that.
I incorporated them in my games but mafia can only claim true claims or softs. They cannot just guess a role, there has to be proof of claim to kill it.

[Seanzie]

I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

I can't express how much I hate the conclusion of your post. You say town needs a leader, but for example let's take me, becoming a good leader is impossible for a player like myself who isn't able to be informed. If I was town this game, I'd be leading under the falsehood that I understood the anti claim mechanic, and would ruin town.

It's crazy to say "Well the vets just need to let everyone know and be the leader." You are just gatekeeping and making it harder on others.

Sorry, I didn't understand that your first post was about just having the soup kill be explained more. I thought it was more about just people seeing there is a soup kill and not taking it seriously.

My comment about town needing a leader wasn't just about the soup kill. It was an observation that I made before the game ended. Town was rudderless D2 and onward. I almost found myself taking the town leader position D2 and shutting Axe's quickhammer down, because that is what I would have done as town. D3 it was clear town was highly demoralized, and needed someone in thread coordinating things and getting town to rally behind them, but again no one stepped up.

Sorry if you don't like it, I'm just saying that I think town could have used someone willing to play the town leader role here. Not having someone doing that made our lives easier IMO.

[MartinGG99]

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

Uhhhh

I'm preety sure I tried stepping up to that role at some point

[MartinGG99]

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

Uhhhh

I'm preety sure I tried stepping up to that role at some point

Or at least in my own way.

[MartinGG99]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

[Seanzie]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

That's fair. I really don't understand why people found you scummy. I mean, I had TMI, sure, but I wasn't kidding in the storm when I had ISO'ed everyone and you looked by far the towniest.

[Guillotine]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

Guilty as charged. Sorry Martin. For my defense, I thought there was two wolves in Seanzie/LoMo/Martin so it was hard for me to get you off my PoE, until Axe came along.

[Guillotine]

Also, I tried to warn town what the soup kill was.

[MartinGG99]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

Guilty as charged. Sorry Martin. For my defense, I thought there was two wolves in Seanzie/LoMo/Martin so it was hard for me to get you off my PoE, until Axe came along.

Nah I'm not mad at you at all Gulio. I mean, maybe you can learn from this, but from what I know of you (aka being crazy lol), you scum-reading me was not surprising.

In fact I gave a really sudden town-read on you early D1. If anything I thought you were incredibly fearful of me being pockety lol

[Guillotine]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

Guilty as charged. Sorry Martin. For my defense, I thought there was two wolves in Seanzie/LoMo/Martin so it was hard for me to get you off my PoE, until Axe came along.

Nah I'm not mad at you at all Gulio. I mean, maybe you can learn from this, but from what I know of you (aka being crazy lol), you scum-reading me was not surprising.

In fact I gave a really sudden town-read on you early D1. If anything I thought you were incredibly fearful of me being pockety lol

[MacDougall]

It's not that nobody stepped up to be a leader

its more rather nobody was able to become a leader because someone else disagreed

like I'm fairly sure I had 2 completely unreasonable (fmpov) scum-reads on me on D2

thats mafia for ya

[Jackofhearts2005]

This is good. Soup is supposed to be salty.

Lol this

[Jackofhearts2005]

Does remind me not to underestimate DOOM. Did not expect mafia her to hammer a fake red like 8 hours into a 48 hour day or whatever actually happened.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Anyhow. Thanks for the game, @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME

I had fun in spite of how poorly I and my faction did.

[KZA]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

[NotAnAxehole]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

[hollowkatt]

I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

guillo also runs a lot of games with soup kills and those kills are usually multiple players

[Alison]

The literal point of a soup kill is to kill multiple players

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

The event schedule was supposed to be:

D1 the storm, handed out alignment plus role check if completed, rng block if not completed)
D2 attack on the south pole, compromise games that handed out a vig to the winner/s (each games winner or winners received a vig shot, if multiple winners in the same game the shot was shared)
D3 the serpents pass, a game of rock paper scissors battle royale, the winner receives a vig shot to use among the losers
D4 day of black sun, hadn't nailed down the competition yet but the reward would have been an unblockable watch to use on n4

The d2 hammer messed with the event timing, and I opted to shift the schedule rather than skip over an event.

[Vulgard]

I want to make a statement.

Wolfing was the easiest thing in the world in this game, and it was the easiest thing in the world for four primary reasons.

1. You wasted two entire days of discussion: one with NotAnAxehole’s fake red on Dana, and the other with pushing NotAnAxehole for his lack of a rescind. Not only that, Dana was quickhammered, removing even more valuable discussion time. Not only that, NotAnAxehole blamed the village and self-hammered instead of trying to fix this. It was a terrible play on many levels, and it made the threadstate deteriorate so much that we, the wolves, could all get away with posting absolutely nothing of value.
2. You didn’t push any real alignment reads after day 1. Largely due to what NotAnAxehole did, no real reads or pushes were being made, aside from one on Grogu. There was a correct lost monkey/Seanzie W/W read floating around, but it wasn’t pushed. I understand the threadstate didn’t allow for it, with all the commentary surrounding NAA and what he did, but the fact you couldn’t scramble together a coherent push definitely helped us as well.
3. You didn’t consolidate. This is directly tied to point 2. You had a very solid towncore in the making, including two people correctly determined as “spewed V by Mac.” But you couldn’t get anything done, because instead of cooperating to oust the wolves, you fought between yourselves. And, like I said in point 1., you removed your own discussion time.
4. You claimed too much. Some of you had good reasons for it, but overall, the number of claims allowed our GOAT Seanzie to massacre you all by compiling a mostly correct list of flavor names assigned to each player. You can’t let that happen in games with anticlaim. Competent wolves can, and will, hunt for hints – much more than the average villager will, in fact! I know the anticlaim shot was too strong (the fact it was 1-shot didn’t even matter when we could multikill, especially with so many claims around), but the fact remains that we wouldn’t have been able to win on night 3 without so many claims.

Why am I writing this? I felt like offering my perspective was valuable, so that these mistakes aren’t repeated in future games.

And I am singling out NotAnAxehole, because his “single-player approach” to mafia (this is quote from him, by the way – go read his ISO if anyone doesn’t believe me) singlehandedly lost town the game. He created a free ML for us, and then a free ML on himself through his attitude on the day after the fake redcheck. And he helped the thread devolve into a bloody mess we collectively stayed away from. I’m sure the village would’ve had significantly better chances without his actions. I’m not going to sugarcoat it, that was horrible and I hope you never do this again. It was painful to read the thread surrounding this nonsense, and to put up with the way you behaved after your check had been proven wrong.

I didn’t mention the three modkills (all on town) because I don’t think I can speak intelligently about them, considering they happened without me paying attention to the “why.” They definitely helped us reach parity, but they weren’t as important as the four points I listed above, I believe.

[Jackofhearts2005]

The literal point of a soup kill is to kill multiple players

I'd argue that the point of the soupkill is to prevent town from using roleclaiming to break the game....which I don't think it does a great job at, mechanically.

[NotAnAxehole]

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

[Guillotine]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

[NotAnAxehole]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

[Urist]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I agree, everyone who Guillotine decides played against their wincon should be severely punished. Personally I won't be letting Axehole talk to me or my son ever again.

[Guillotine]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

[NotAnAxehole]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

[Guillotine]

Like i would accept that you messed up, cause i have messed up the same way too. I lost a gane for town faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. But i apologized after game and actually learnt the lesson, i never did it again.

[Guillotine]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

[NotAnAxehole]

Like i would accept that you messed up, cause i have messed up the same way too. I lost a gane for town faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. But i apologized after game and actually learnt the lesson, i never did it again.

I will try not to be wrong again.

[NotAnAxehole]

Sorry I shouldve led the town

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

I mean, if you don't want a ridiculous quote to be used against you, don't make it in the first place.

[Guillotine]

I lead town to you so that you could lead them from beyond the grave.

I agree with vulgard, we lost because my reads were bad, no one else did anything of note.

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

I mean, if you don't want a ridiculous quote to be used against you, don't make it in the first place.

Against me? Ha!

I don't take it back, cause it was addressed to the kind of people described in it and no one else.

[NotAnAxehole]

See these comments? This shows this guy deliberately played against our wincon and he has shown no remorse whatsoever for his actions. He displayed a similar attitude in the DVC.

He needs to be punished for it. I'm taking measures for the games im hosting here and I‘d advice everyone to do the same.

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

I mean, if you don't want a ridiculous quote to be used against you, don't make it in the first place.

Against me? Ha!

I don't take it back, cause it was addressed to the kind of people described in it and no one else.

It's funny because it seems to apply to you on both ends of the statement.

[NotAnAxehole]

@DaughterOfOmega Weren't you so notorious for fake claiming that no one ever listened to you?

[NotAnAxehole]

@Guillotine You're basically saying that I should be punished for not violating the rules because I didn't play into the narrow box that you feel town should stick to. I mean, that's some level of entitlement. But who am I to judge, I do think your world should revolve around you somewhat.

[Guillotine]

I'm supposed to feel remorse for having bad reads and losing a game?

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

I mean, if you don't want a ridiculous quote to be used against you, don't make it in the first place.

Against me? Ha!

I don't take it back, cause it was addressed to the kind of people described in it and no one else.

It's funny because it seems to apply to you on both ends of the statement.

Nah, i admit when im wrong and apologize, im not selfish and definitely not entitled.

@Urist That's my advice, otherwise he'll keep doing it.

[Guillotine]

@Guillotine You're basically saying that I should be punished for not violating the rules because I didn't play into the narrow box that you feel town should stick to. I mean, that's some level of entitlement. But who am I to judge, I do think your world should revolve around you somewhat.

Dude, the fact that you still don't get it proves my point. Hopefully one day you will see it.

[NotAnAxehole]

@Guillotine You're basically saying that I should be punished for not violating the rules because I didn't play into the narrow box that you feel town should stick to. I mean, that's some level of entitlement. But who am I to judge, I do think your world should revolve around you somewhat.

Dude, the fact that you still don't get it proves my point. Hopefully one day you will see it.

I have acknowledged your point. I think you're an excellent forum mafia player and you were definitely on track to carry town to victory if not for my pesky meddling.

[Guillotine]

I just hope you learn from this, it's all i ask.

I said everything i needed to say, i needed closure or i wouldnt be able to let it go.

See you guys in the next game!

[Urist]

No, you are supposed to feel remorse for faking a redcheck and not rescinding it. You sre supposed to feel remorse for making the game about you instead of playing like you are part of the team, you are supposed to apologize for it and yet you act like we should just accept that behavior, which you hinted in the D C that you have no intention of changing.

I'm sorry that you come from that generation of people who can't handle someone who does something differently than them.

Whatever man.

I mean, if you don't want a ridiculous quote to be used against you, don't make it in the first place.

Against me? Ha!

I don't take it back, cause it was addressed to the kind of people described in it and no one else.

It's funny because it seems to apply to you on both ends of the statement.

Nah, i admit when im wrong and apologize, im not selfish and definitely not entitled.

@Urist That's my advice, otherwise he'll keep doing it.

I've found that people like him simply cannot be saved. No matter how much you point out his hypocrisy he just won't listen. As you say, we need to cancel him for the absolutely heinous behaviour he's displayed here, so that our youths are not exposed to and influenced by his toxicity. I hate taking such drastic measures, but it really is the only option here. Personally, I won't be allowing him to speak to me or my son ever again.

[NotAnAxehole]

I just hope you learn from this, it's all i ask.

I said everything i needed to say, i needed closure or i wouldnt be able to let it go.

See you guys in the next game!

I'm glad you've been able to work out your issues here, and I hope you come out a better man for it.

[Alison]

The literal point of a soup kill is to kill multiple players

I'd argue that the point of the soupkill is to prevent town from using roleclaiming to break the game....which I don't think it does a great job at, mechanically.

It seemed to have done a good job punishing town for claiming here

[Alison]

my personal punishment for people who fake red checks and subsequently cause town to lose the game is 1 month blacklist unless they had a good reason to do it

[Alison]

nanook faked a red in lasagna but I know him and town won anyway so he doesn't get blacklisted! life is unfair.

[Syn]

my personal punishment for people who fake red checks and subsequently cause town to lose the game is 1 month blacklist unless they had a good reason to do it

is "it would be funny" a good reason

[NotAnAxehole]

my personal punishment for people who fake red checks and subsequently cause town to lose the game is 1 month blacklist unless they had a good reason to do it

There's nothing that says a fake can't surpass the real thing.

[KZA]

If you're going to fake a red at least do it on me