AtLA post-game (mafia win)

[Seanzie]

I want to say that I really appreciate the integration of the flavor into the design of the game. In most mafia games, the flavor and the game are essentially completely disjoint. In this though, it was a lot of fun character hunting because I had to reflect on the show and the characters and ask what sorts of abilities would fit with which characters. So, a lot more flavor factored into the gameplay than maybe was outwardly apparent. As an AtLA fan, that made it very fun when doing behind-the-scene character hunting IMO.

[NotAnAxehole]

The only thing with the "soup kill" that I didn't like is that, in my opinion, anti-claim measures aren't really needed when roles have no connection to alignment.

[Creature]

Bruh that soup kill is broken af

Not that it would've changed the endgame anyway, but still pretty bad

[NotAnAxehole]

Bruh that soup kill is broken af

Not that it would've changed the endgame anyway, but still pretty bad

Yeah, it's really nice to have in a game where role is connected to alignment though because you need some claim prevention. The issue here is that roles don't matter. People can literally just claim their exact role and defend the actions they took, or make them up if not public knowledge.

[Seanzie]

Bruh that soup kill is broken af

Not that it would've changed the endgame anyway, but still pretty bad

people shouldn't have claimed or hinted at their roles so much.

[Scotty]

RE: the soup kill- it’s stated right in the first post that the soup kill is in place, so throwing caution to the wind on that is just a matter of not reading the rules

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This was a game that at some points breached the limits of what we'd tend to aim for in terms of avoiding toxicity. Conflict in Mafia is natural and healthy, but there are limits to this. I wish I'd been better able as the Moderator on Duty to catch some of it and take more direct action. Unfortunately I have had a very busy week or so. I am glad that Epignosis was around when I was unavailable to help fill that role.

Let's never forget gang that the most important rule of any game on this site (and ideally any site) is to be respectful. Whatever we may think of the methods or skills of anyone else, that is secondary to respect. Indeed, respect is itself a skill that tends to promote successful play anyway, so if winning's the ultimate aim every time then there's still plenty of reason to be respectful.

[hollowkatt]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME Do we get a sticker? Don't think I have ever won a game this early and easily.

I think seanzie can make stickers/signature banners?

[BoKnows]

GG everyone

[MartinGG99]

I can't really put it into words. And it wasn't just the one thing w/ toxicity.

I'm just not satisfied with this game.

Not at all.

.........And while I could dump my grievances here (which won't fix or help anything), I'm just not going to do that.

I also had a few compliments to give out, but that may just end up giving my grievances (where-ever they may be) away.

See ya. I guess. Better for me that it was ended now than later.

[MartinGG99]

Thanks to @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME I guess though. This game had good potential. For me, it just didn't go that way.

[DaughterOfOmega]

I'm not going to play with players who think it's okay to try and publicly angleshoot with a dead player who is no longer allowed to post in the game. This is a clear breach of integrity for how mafia games are supposed to be run. It specifies that communication is only limited to chats that are apart of the game, and sending codes is not apart of that.

If this is allowed in future Syn games, I'm probably going to find somewhere these to fill my mafia desire

[Creature]

I'm just not satisfied with this game.

Not at all.

Finally someone to admit it

[Guillotine]

I'm not going to play with players who think it's okay to try and publicly angleshoot with a dead player who is no longer allowed to post in the game. This is a clear breach of integrity for how mafia games are supposed to be run. It specifies that communication is only limited to chats that are apart of the game, and sending codes is not apart of that.

If this is allowed in future Syn games, I'm probably going to find somewhere these to fill my mafia desire

Never in my games.

[Grogu]

Wtf is over? How many scum were there?

[Grogu]

Bruh that soup kill is broken af

Not that it would've changed the endgame anyway, but still pretty bad

Yeah, it's really nice to have in a game where role is connected to alignment though because you need some claim prevention. The issue here is that roles don't matter. People can literally just claim their exact role and defend the actions they took, or make them up if not public knowledge.

This is correct. Lol
I could claim aang and even be peeked as aang and it doesn’t prove I am town. Wtf lol
Some serious design issues

[Dana]

Dead/spec chat: https://discord.gg/R4h5HkVfzH
Event one: https://discord.gg/K3tQCRFKFE
Event two: https://discord.gg/ZGwXFchq6Z
Mafia chat: https://discord.gg/K3tQCRFKFE

Two of these links are the same lol

[EnderWiggin]

Luckbox deserved better

True. My bad haha.

@EnderWiggin @Justinrs2 @MartinGG99
thanks for being fun to play with this game
I would totally play with you all again sometime
Some players like Seanzie would probably be great to play with on the flip side too

Thank you. Feel free to PM me where you usually hover and I can float over for a game or two at some point. I'm fairly happy to forum-hop, like I did in the good old days.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Dead/spec chat: https://discord.gg/R4h5HkVfzH
Event one: https://discord.gg/K3tQCRFKFE
Event two: https://discord.gg/ZGwXFchq6Z
Mafia chat: https://discord.gg/K3tQCRFKFE

Two of these links are the same lol

Idk what you're talking about;)

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

[Guillotine]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

100% agree

[DaughterOfOmega]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

[Naviya]

A "soup kill" is a special form of anticlaim, a mass-kill anticlaim that can chain kill players as long as you have their roles
So it's a misunderstanding, not either side trying to blame-shift

[Creature]

Let's just agree soup kill is terrible and not add it again.

Also wolves have a full flavor list which can allow them a lot of kills even if every town player shuts up about their role and flavor.

[falcon45ca]

GG everyone

Imma miss Bo

[NotAnAxehole]

Wtf is over? How many scum were there?

I did say it was almost certainly LyLo

[MacDougall]

Hi

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm confused by all these different abilities but how did scum kill five people in one night?

The soup kill

lolwut

[Seanzie]

Let's just agree soup kill is terrible and not add it again.

Also wolves have a full flavor list which can allow them a lot of kills even if every town player shuts up about their role and flavor.

How do wolves get a lot of kills if town don't talk about their roles? Like, if you have 10 players and 10 roles and no info, you've got 90% chance of getting no kills, and to soup we had to out a wolf and have no NK.

Soup, if heeded properly by town, is an effective way to have a no-claim game. Town this game did not heed the soup though.

[Seanzie]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

I think adding a soup kill has more of an effect than just stopping town winning from a mass claim. It also changes how the game is played. In a big role-madness type game like this, even if mass-claim wouldn't end the game, it would cause the game to be extremely mech-heavy. Soup allows for a game that has a mech-heavy role-madness backdrop, while encouraging dayplay that is more about reads than roles.

[Jackofhearts2005]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

Largely through claims and correct inferences from hinting i believe

[Jackofhearts2005]

If it’s the later, that’s not how anticlaim is supposed to work. If it’s the former, loltown. Not the first time I’ve seen a town give up several yeets for not paying attention to anticlaim mechanics. Extra loltown because we had basically vanilla claims and character claims when characters weren’t alignment indicative.

[Jackofhearts2005]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

Largely through claims and correct inferences from hinting i believe

I hinted like 3 characters so I was surprised to have been souped.

Granted, two of those roles were claimed later but as a wolf, if someone is quoting/hinting multiple things, I assume they’re fucking around.

I did out that I was a good guy but that shouldn’t have narrowed it down that much.

[Seanzie]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

[Seanzie]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

This was like my favorite part of the game, trying to link player's moods/actions/softs to AtLA characters was very fun.

[Jackofhearts2005]

This is not a critique of this game or me saying “mafia didn’t deserve this win” because I haven’t read the whole setup and wolves totally outplayed the town.

I’m still looking for the perfect anticlaim mechanic that isn’t just safeclaims. Mafia getting like 6 kills in one night is not ideal. In this case, it probably just sped up the route.

Maybe anticlaim murderizing townies who can’t help themselves from claiming and hinting is the correct anticlaim mechanic. Like the equivalent of a short ban or policy yeet. A slap on the wrist that reminds everyone not to do it again and that’s the best you can do (especially if you don’t want to leave out important characters or have small themes such that safeclaims aren’t ideal).

[MartinGG99]

idk what you all are on about the soup kill, it was warned and so it happened. But I would imagine if there hypothetically was a new player who didn't know what a soup kill was, there probably should be some sort of clarification of what that soup-kill was and/or its extent. Other than that, I had no problems with the mechanic.

One of my personal issues with the game is that I feel the game/town wouldn't let me kill !mafia LoMo for his actions during the event, and I feel like some parts of the game inhibited my scum-hunting and focus.

And because of that, I didn't really learn anything nor feel like I will improve in any way from the game other than to more actively consider such distractions and (if its just unnecessary like toxicity) consider just leaving the game or contacting the MoD's myself (if applicable) if I encounter it in the future. If I don't feel like I could learn or improve from a game, then I hardly can feel fun if I'm trying to give it all at times. Especially since this was my first town game after three back-to-back wolf rands. This? it was a massive disappointment to me for what I (admittedly, half-my-problem) put my hopes really high up for.

I'm not going to start pointing fingers at anyone though.

[hollowkatt]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

Seanzie is the goat of AtLA lore and managed to piece together the likely character names via the claims, behavior, and how they approached specific aspects of the thread.
Without Seanzies hard work putting that list together this game is still ongoing.

I get that soup feels really unfair to town and I'm not going to comment on that at all. What I will say is that Seanzie really deserves all the credit for putting that list together and being as accurate as it was.

[Grogu]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

Well said. Is a learning experience nanook, you designed the game for us and volunteered your time therefore I don’t want to sound negative. I appreciate your work and time, but the game had some design flaws.
As mods we all try to make the game have some anticlaim mechanics so a mass claim doesn’t end the game. On the same hand in a game in which roles are not aligned to town or mafia, there is no need… since claiming a town character is not a clearing action…
Did we even have a real cop? You had a role cop instead iirc?
There’s too many scum sided things all at once. That’s all.
Also it looks like there were lots of scum but I could be wrong.
Normally scum can kill 1 person per night to anticlaim. Not 5.

Did they have to guess our role or just the character to kill us?

[Grogu]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

Ya didn’t have a death penalty for guessing wrong??? Lmao omg

[Grogu]

Good game scum, ya did out play us. We couldn’t get anything going.

[Seanzie]

Questioning the need for a soup kill is fair, but it was in the OP that there's a soup kill and that claiming role or character is punished. So. Ignoring that isn't really something you can reasonably blame the host for, you were warned, you ignored it, there were consequences

I think this is terrible logic. Especially as a long term mafia player who has experienced many versions of anti claim. There is something called "expected consequences" my experience with it comes from childcare psychology. You say well "you were told something could possible happen, so anything that happened afterwards can't be complained about" which is hilariously absurd. Many standard mafia players would probably set a realistic expectation of "there is an anati claim vig in this game, if we claim it will add one kill per night." Instead what the result ends up being, is an anti claim that literally gives potential for mafia to kill every single living town player in one night. I rolled mafia this game, and I thought to myself "yeah this is going to be the easiest win of my life, there will be at minimum 4-5 kp with this lategame." I also knew every town member was not going to expect this, because it's such an abusrd extreme for a host to apply in his game.

If hosts want to get away from town just mass claiming roles to win, I tend to think the roles/alignments should be balanced around claiming, and not just handing mafia a massive killing tool. Give mafia an entire claimable role list, etc.

I don't tend to enjoy talks like these, but tbh Nanook I've really dislike the attitude you've shown about certain complaints. Especially your response to what Axehole did.

Well said. Is a learning experience nanook, you designed the game for us and volunteered your time therefore I don’t want to sound negative. I appreciate your work and time, but the game had some design flaws.
As mods we all try to make the game have some anticlaim mechanics so a mass claim doesn’t end the game. On the same hand in a game in which roles are not aligned to town or mafia, there is no need… since claiming a town character is not a clearing action…
Did we even have a real cop? You had a role cop instead iirc?
There’s too many scum sided things all at once. That’s all.
Also it looks like there were lots of scum but I could be wrong.
Normally scum can kill 1 person per night to anticlaim. Not 5.

Did they have to guess our role or just the character to kill us?

I also don't want to sound negative, but you're the one who hard-hinted your role even though there was clearly a soup kill described in the setup. You can't blame that on Nook or the game design.

[Seanzie]

What’s the tldr on how the mafia figured out the ids of like 6 players?

Claims and then lucky guesses? Night actions?

TSP-> Aang due to Axe
Felicis -> Zuko due to claim
Grogu -> Roku due to softclaims

Then after that there were educated guesses:

I looked carefully through your ISO. You had three pictures of characters, two from relatively early D1, and one from later in the game (Iroh). I guessed the first few were not softs (or fake softs), but the later one might not be. That coupled with the fact that you thought you had some sort of innate immunity made me look carefully at the characters and I guessed you were Iroh based on flavor.

Martin mentioned having 3 actions in 1 night during the storm event. I kind of figured a pretty powerful character would have that, so I guessed Martin was Ozai.

Next up to solve was Bumi - we knew that Falcon wasn't Bumi because Falcon got a picture from HK (Appa was an airbender, Bumi is earth, so they are immune to each other) so it was between Guillo and LC, and I thought LC was more likely, not sure why, but LC was Bumi.

I should have figured out that Falcon was Momo since Falcon claimed the same ability as Appa (that was my bad, I would have gotten a perfect list if I would have remembered that), however i guessed Guillo was Momo just because that would be funny, which left Ty-Lee for Falcon. Those two I got wrong.

Ya didn’t have a death penalty for guessing wrong??? Lmao omg

The penalty was that whoever souped would have been outed in the thread, so we had to lose one wolf to do the soup kill. Town didn't do a good job of blocking the soup, so it ended up being worth it.

[DaughterOfOmega]

I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

[DaughterOfOmega]

Imagine reading this "There is a one use soup kill in this game" the direct quote from the start of this game.

Me for example, I know what an anti claim mechanic is. I've never heard of a soup kill before, but when I read "a one use" my expected assumption is one of our town claims can be killed via this mechanic.

[Seanzie]

I think asking a player who hasn't experienced a game like this to assume that mafia can kill the entire town in a single night is loltier.

This was an assumption made, which is nonsense.

There were enough people who have played with a soup kill that town should have made sure the stakes were clear to everyone involved. I know if I was town, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that claiming/hinting/softing is all suicide. I also would have been playing significantly more soup-defensive (softing roles/characters I didn't have and the like). The only town player that I can say played well around the soup was Guillo. Many others played fine in not revealing much, but many just didn't heed the soup kill enough, and no one made sure everyone was aware of the full implications.

I think really what town needed this game was a leader. Ender could have played the role if they survived, but someone needed to coordinate town pushes, stop the early hammer D2, boost morale D2 and D3, and keep claiming/softing in check, but no one stepped up to that role.

[DaughterOfOmega]

My advice is to label things clearly for players, or add a depresciption along with what weird term you want to use.

Either say (Mafia has a mass anti claim one use ability) or (Mafia has a soup kill. *soup kill is blah blah blah*)

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Explaining what a soup kill is better is a fair criticism and I do tend towards underexplaining sometimes, usually just because I make more assumptions about people understanding the same shorthand that I do more than I should at times.

The primary intent of the soup kill was to make claiming have some weight and introduce some amount of tension to the process. I did not foresee a bunch of town ignoring it and claiming or soft claiming seemingly without consideration for there explicitly being anti claim mechanics, arguably I should have but I didn't.

The other large goal of having a soup kill was to make day play more important/viable in a role madness game without totally nerfing mech play in the way that a strict no claims rule would, so that people had as many routes to a win as possible. The events were also intended to help with this, but they were largely ignored by town.


This was certainly not a flawlessly designed game, however I do not believe the soup kill implementation was particularly harsh relative to most soup kills or particularly unfair. It probably should have been communicated better tho, and that part I will take some responsibility for.

[NotAnAxehole]

This is good. Soup is supposed to be salty.