The Syndicate

Golden wrote:Dunno how you took so many votes brian. That lynch was bizarre. What, for pointing out that a no lynch isn't that civ-helpful?

Idk, I voted for the luke because there was a discussion about how bad no lynch day 1 is for town and then he voted no lynch. He at least had to read the post before, the site kinda forces you too. I thought the reason was perfectly sound.

bcornett24 wrote:6 games played total, 2 of 6 times, I been killed on day 1-2 on random wagon =(

Sorry, we're assholes here...

Sorsha wrote:

bcornett24 wrote:6 games played total, 2 of 6 times, I been killed on day 1-2 on random wagon =(

Sorry, we're assholes here...

Tough luck, Brian, you certainly tried. I know how it is to exit a game really quickly. It sucks.

Glad to have you here in the spectator chat though.

Seems we have a vote for a2thezebra and a vote for DrWilgy in terms of mafia NK predictions.

Any other guesses before the Night ends (about 8 hours)?

Eh, it happens. I signed up for star wars.

Night 1: Who will die tonight?

You may select 1 option


a2thezebra
1
Sorsha (3) 25%
bea
0
No votes
Boomslang
0
No votes
Choutas
0
No votes
DrWilgy
2
bcornett24 (2), Golden (4) 50%
Enrique
0
No votes
FZ.
0
No votes
Luke11646
0
No votes
Matt F
0
No votes
Metalmarsh89
0
No votes
TheFloyd73
0
No votes
Tranq
0
No votes
????????
1
MovingPictures07 (1) 25%
Total votes : 4

I thought FZ was supatown

Welcome to spectator chat, FZ.

Indeed, she was taken out way too soon.

Hey, look at Floyd... he is making civvie-like posts.

Town's win probability plummets when the cop dies this early. Will the townies attempt to find her peek?

Actually there isn't much content to search, I can't find a conclusive peek. The best I can do is DrWilgy.

I din't think I was being obvious :P Why the hell did they go and kill me? Especially after my fiasco last game?
MP, did they know I was the cop?

bcornett, sorry for leading your lynch, but I never planned it will end up with you actually being lynched. I feel bad. There was practically nothing to go by, and then I had to leave. It was either you or Boomslang, but now I think he might be a civvie too.

My bet would be Bea at the moment.

Matt F is also an option.

FZ. wrote:MP, did they know I was the cop?

Did they?

You'll find out at postgame, since I'll make their BTSC public to everyone then.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Town's win probability plummets when the cop dies this early. Will the townies attempt to find her peek?

I'm surprised they aren't.

Talk to me about fake peeks. This is something I feel the players definitely should have employed here, but many of them could be unaware of that strategy completely.

Zebra couldn't be much scummier at this point.

"I didn't even care enough to respond to it" translates to "Your case against me is weak and that's all I need to say to prevent people from voting for me."

MovingPictures07 wrote:

FZ. wrote:MP, did they know I was the cop?

Did they?

You'll find out at postgame, since I'll make their BTSC public to everyone then.

So you're saying I was obvious?

MovingPictures07 wrote:Talk to me about fake peeks. This is something I feel the players definitely should have employed here, but many of them could be unaware of that strategy completely.

To those who might be unaware of what MP is referring to, a "fake peek" in this setup is an unambiguous read planted into the thread by any player other than the cop meant to appear like it was brought on by the free ID that the cop receives at the start of the game. I think there are a couple significant benefits to this:

1.) It's the most fundamental method of cop cover, something that is definitely necessary to protect the cop from the sort of misfortune FZ experienced in this Night 1. If players leave fake peeks in the thread and are convincing about it, they might draw night kills from the mafia -- and a vanilla townie being killed is less damaging to the town cause than the cop being killed. It's a form of self-sacrifice and it's very important. This might seem like something from another planet in this Syndicate environment where many people are accustomed to survival being paramount.

2.) It's extremely valuable as a means of generating objective evidence. Players can be read based upon their position in the fake peek scenario. The most significant example of this comes in the form of "SHC" (seer hunt cleared) opportunities. They call it SHC on 2+2 and elsewhere because they tend to play within the "Werewolf" aesthetic more than "Mafia", so you could also call it "CHC" (cop hunt cleared).

What this means is that fake peeks and night kill selections can be analyzed together to get conclusive evidence that a player is innocent. I'll draw an example out using RYM names:

JaggedJimmyJay says on Day 1 "I think Sloonei is a strong town read and will not participate in his lynch today." or more literally "Sloonei is my free peek."

On Night 1, the mafia kill JJJ and he flips vanilla townie.

This means Sloonei is seer hunt cleared -- because in this setup the mafia have a massive motivation to eliminate the cop as quickly as possible, and any night kill choice prior to the cop's demise can be reasoned as an attempt to kill the cop. In this case, the mafia would have killed JJJ thinking he is the cop and that Sloonei is his free peek. If they believe this, then it is impossible for Sloonei to be mafia because the free peek cannot be mafia. Any player who leaves a fake peek that ends up being a mafia player by default cannot be the cop (barring intentional fudging, but this is difficult and rare), and the mafia understand this.

However, there is also some added risk if everyone employs this strategy. As I said, any player who leaves a fake peek on a mafioso by mistake is close to eliminated from contention for being the cop -- and this helps the mafia team narrow down the pool of possibilities. For this reason, it is crucial that players only leave fake peeks on people who they genuinely feel are solid town reads.

Along with this, it's paramount that the cop him/herself leave the necessary breadcrumbs to allow everyone else to know what his/her peeks were in the event of an untimely death. It is a shame when the free peek or any subsequent peek gets lynched because the townies were unable to discern who they were within the cop's content. For this reason, unambiguous reads are often needed for the sake of clarity in that analysis -- and cover is needed from the vanilla townies to ensure the mafia can't isolate the cop based upon those unambiguous reads.

This is why a few of those champs games went into Insane Mode with five or six people all claiming to be the cop. It confuses the mafia their hunt -- and the townies too if people aren't careful.

FZ. wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

FZ. wrote:MP, did they know I was the cop?

Did they?

You'll find out at postgame, since I'll make their BTSC public to everyone then.

So you're saying I was obvious?

I don't think you were obvious. I don't see anything in your posts that screams "I'm the cop!!!" at all. I think the mafia got lucky and you got unlucky.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

FZ. wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

FZ. wrote:MP, did they know I was the cop?

Did they?

You'll find out at postgame, since I'll make their BTSC public to everyone then.

So you're saying I was obvious?

I don't think you were obvious. I don't see anything in your posts that screams "I'm the cop!!!" at all. I think the mafia got lucky and you got unlucky.

Thanks :-)

I'm aware of the fake peek notion. The thing is, this is not the community for fake peeks. People here are too used to playing for their own win. They're not used to playing for the team's win.

I think it depends on the win conditions. If i am a civ that wins dead or alive, i am more of a team player. But if I have to be alive to win, yeah, I would have to agree with you. The place most of the Syndicate homgrowns came from had rules that said you had to be alive to win. That led to our culture being self centered for the most part, i think.

That is why i have civs win dead or alive with their team in every game I hosted. I think it gives the civs more ways to fles their group muscles.

FZ, are you going to tell us who your peek was?

I don't think you were obviously cop, but I did think you were the most townie looking. Maybe that's why.

S~V~S wrote:I think it depends on the win conditions. If i am a civ that wins dead or alive, i am more of a team player. But if I have to be alive to win, yeah, I would have to agree with you. The place most of the Syndicate homgrowns came from had rules that said you had to be alive to win. That led to our culture being self centered for the most part, i think.

That is why i have civs win dead or alive with their team in every game I hosted. I think it gives the civs more ways to fles their group muscles.

Then I should play one of your games sometime

linki: Do you want me to?

I have to go, but let me know if you want me to tell you who I had info on, and I'll post it when I get back

FZ. wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

FZ. wrote:MP, did they know I was the cop?

Did they?

You'll find out at postgame, since I'll make their BTSC public to everyone then.

So you're saying I was obvious?

I'm not saying anything.

Thanks for that discussion, Jay! That's precisely what I was hoping for.

Over time, it'll be interesting to see whether players will start experimenting with that strategy now that we're running the Champions-style setup.

S~V~S wrote:I think it depends on the win conditions. If i am a civ that wins dead or alive, i am more of a team player. But if I have to be alive to win, yeah, I would have to agree with you. The place most of the Syndicate homgrowns came from had rules that said you had to be alive to win. That led to our culture being self centered for the most part, i think.

That is why i have civs win dead or alive with their team in every game I hosted. I think it gives the civs more ways to fles their group muscles.

I'm always doing this in future games. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

FZ. wrote: Thanks :-)

I'm aware of the fake peek notion. The thing is, this is not the community for fake peeks. People here are too used to playing for their own win. They're not used to playing for the team's win.

I feel as though this is part of the reason civilians have had a hard time winning larger games on this site, and it's something I'm actively trying to combat in games that I play going forward.

S~V~S wrote:I think it depends on the win conditions. If i am a civ that wins dead or alive, i am more of a team player. But if I have to be alive to win, yeah, I would have to agree with you. The place most of the Syndicate homgrowns came from had rules that said you had to be alive to win. That led to our culture being self centered for the most part, i think.

That is why i have civs win dead or alive with their team in every game I hosted. I think it gives the civs more ways to fles their group muscles.

This doesn't quite resonate with me, although it's probably on a personal level. If I'll have 20 civ trophies (wins), but, for instance, be killed early in half of those games and, say, end up in only 3 endgames, many of those 20 victories will feel pretty hollow. Also, the civilians are not a team, they are a faction. You can hardly ever describe a team as a large collective that is (except for lovers, civs with BTSC, civs with gradual info) uninformed, manipulable by outside forces, varied in mentality and in how much trust they place in other players, can also easily step on each other's toes more often than not.

Furthermore, since there is no common mafia mentality to speak out (such as "mafia players will always punish the players who hunt them the most / put pressure on them the most / act supatown-iest / post the most / are marmots etc.), there should be no common fear among civilian players that, should they play in the spirit of the faction rather than self-centered, they'll consequently suffer more.

In Donner, my effort was all over the place but I also did something that helped the civs, yet my death was frankly caused more by civilians rather than by mafia. In Omerta, my effort was non-existent, and I was removed by civilians for being self-centered, lol. In Guess Who, I had the best reads I ever started a game with and was quickly killed by Mafia for it. In Watchmen, my effort was all over the place but participation was strong, and Mafia waited five Nights before trying to kill me for looking the civviest (luckily, I had a kill survival). In Recruitement, my effort was all over the place but participation was strong, and Mafia waited around the same amount of time to kill me (doing so probably because llama was on that team). In Teen Wolf on JTM, my effort was pretty decent, plus I was an outed civilian in short time, but the Mafia never bothered to remove me. In Talking Heads, my efforts varied but I gradually became the baddies' worst nightmare, yet they (collectively) never touched me via Night Kills.

If there's no real pattern on how mafia kills, there's no real pattern on how your survival odds will be throughout a game, either, really.

Of course, I'm no hypocrite to realise that, the more I'd progress into a game, the more a loss would hurt, should I get killed very short of achieving a win. In Watchmen, I practically begged the SK to not dispose of me, one Night or two away from lylo (although my survival win con was slighty nefarious back then ). In Talking Heads, I was the last civilian killed and, if the win con would have not been DoA, my spirit would have been permanently crushed. But overall, I can accept losing some of the times, rather than winning as an early casualty on the back of others who carried the win till the end.

Besides, from experience, I've yet to see this "if I can win dead or alive, I am more of a team player" mentality fully manifest itself, regardless of alignment. In Syndicate, I was mafia and we had three lurkers/inactives in a team of seven that was gradually reduced (read: ripped apart) to just three masterminds. I'm sure other hosts can pitch in on how little, sometimes, the mafia in their games can act team-like (i.e. fully engaged, coordinated, etc.). In Talking Heads, despite what was ultimately a very powerful third act participation, we've had two civilian susbtitutions (to avoid modkilling) and then, alas, five civilians fall to modkill clauses or inactivity curses (No Compassion) nevertheless, compared to just one mafia member suffering the same fate. In Syndicate, three substitions were required to avoid modkills only for three modkills to still occur afterwards, compared to just two mafia suffering the same fate. Both games were dead-or-alive conditioned. Thus, I fail to see the team-work motivation happening, rather than to simply note how each player can (and ultimately will) play as much as he's able or willing to, every given time.

---

All this rant aside, lol , I agree that these games should aim to improve Syndicateers' (especially civilian-slotted ones) skills on operating with dead-or-alive tactics, such as the earlier mentioned fake peek, cop cover, etc.

Some of us Syndicateers are happy about how we play

I do agree that it is good, though, becasue it will meld that game style with our own, and we will create something new

And my opinion was a generalization; not everyone agrees, but our background is a big part of who we are, in games as in real life. But I still do think that we tend to view ourselves as lone individuals for the most part~ I have been in games where civvies got lynched for referring to their "team" and it was felt to be a slip becasue the civvies weren't a "team".

For me it's very simple:

It's better for someone to win a game that they didn't necessarily earn than for someone to be denied a win that they absolutely earned.

I mean no offense to anyone with a contrary viewpoint, but I really have no interest in playing any game that isn't dead or alive. I think that's a completely different game -- it's no longer Mafia and instead it's something else.

I do think of town as a team.

Meanwhile, your name turned to red, the traditional color of mafia.

JaggedJimmyJay

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:For me it's very simple:

It's better for someone to win a game that they didn't necessarily earn than for someone to be denied a win that they absolutely earned.

I mean no offense to anyone with a contrary viewpoint, but I really have no interest in playing any game that isn't dead or alive. I think that's a completely different game -- it's no longer Mafia and instead it's something else.

I do think of town as a team.

If the game is as simple as town vs baddies, I can see the merit in this view point. And I definitely see the merit in win cons being balanced for both sides (I've mentioned before, that if baddies don't win if they die, things like bussing becomes quite contentious within the team and so it leads to better balance, for me, than allowing one side the privilege only).

However, I think there are some game set ups where being alive to win is not only appropriate, but kind of almost necessary. If you have a game with a lot of independents, for instance, then a world in which only the independents would be best served by playing selfishly makes them stick out strongly. I think the game set up should dictate the best win conditions not the other way around. I've been working recently on a game where I've had to give win conditions a lot of thought, and being able to win while dead would not work for that game. I also would have strict participation requirements on a win if I hosted a game

I also think that the 'win only if alive' thing often contributes to keeping mafia at our site civil and low-key, as opposed to mafiascum srs bsnss. Knowing your win or loss might be completely out of your control keeps people in a headspace where being the best mafia player they can possibly be isn't the be all and end all, and I think that can be good for culture. And it requires you to bring out a different skill set. I, personally, find the most exciting thing about mafia as we present it at the home sites I've had (and probably the Syndicate more than any other) is that different game requirements force your skill set into all sorts of directions. It creates a challenge for self to have to adapt to whatever the game throws at me, and doing my best to figure out how to meet that challenge is for me far more satisfying than winning itself (even if it means flame outs like, for instance, my recruitment flame out).

And, JJ... if you are anything like me, I reckon that even in games where dead people don't 'win'... you'll take one for the team. I've never minded losing if it gets my team the win. It's all about perspective anyway, I think. I'd usually sooner be dead and see my faction win than be still alive when the other faction wins. I don't think you should rule out different kinds of games... you should take them for what they are... and you are right that in some ways they are not 'mafia', not in its purest form. They are something else. But they are still something really fun.

Well, my gut response is to agree with JJJ. This is how I originally played mafia, and it's the mafia default for me, and because of that, I don't think I can play the way some of the syndicaters play. I just have to give it all I got. Sometimes it backfires, LOL and I end up screwing things for the others. But like I said, it's in my mafia DNA.

But I also get what Golden is saying. The syndicate has a different style and it's fun to switch every now and then and maybe some set ups really should require being alive. That said, I think that should be the exception and not the norm.

I miss playing the simple games, when it's all about your read on people and not so much behind the scene craziness.

I would still love to play more closed set up games where it's not just cop and vanilla townies on one hand, yet not full of complicated roles on the other hand.

FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

Only the most awesome kind of big and crazy.

Epignosis wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

Only the most awesome kind of big and crazy.

I can't keep up with those Everything is just a mess in my head and it's so hard to catch up when all the real talking happens when I'm asleep. That's true for every game, but in the big ones I end up having to catch up on 10 pages (and I'm reminding you English is not my mother tongue).

FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

Only the most awesome kind of big and crazy.

I can't keep up with those Everything is just a mess in my head and it's so hard to catch up when all the real talking happens when I'm asleep. That's true for every game, but in the big ones I end up having to catch up on 10 pages (and I'm reminding you English is not my mother tongue).

Then this new Classic thread should be right up your alley

Golden wrote:FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

I do.

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

Only the most awesome kind of big and crazy.

I can't keep up with those Everything is just a mess in my head and it's so hard to catch up when all the real talking happens when I'm asleep. That's true for every game, but in the big ones I end up having to catch up on 10 pages (and I'm reminding you English is not my mother tongue).

Is it just the size of big, full games? Depending on the players on the roster, smaller games can also get intense lately. Unfortunately, I tend to contribute to that.

Ricochet wrote:

Golden wrote:FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

I do.

Oh, FZ speaks Nauruan. Got it.

Golden wrote:FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

It's a secret :P

S~V~S wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Epignosis wrote:FZ.!

Why you not in Star Wars? There's only one spot left!

Is it a big crazy game?

Only the most awesome kind of big and crazy.

I can't keep up with those Everything is just a mess in my head and it's so hard to catch up when all the real talking happens when I'm asleep. That's true for every game, but in the big ones I end up having to catch up on 10 pages (and I'm reminding you English is not my mother tongue).

Then this new Classic thread should be right up your alley

I know. I love that it's added. But the bastards killed me


linki: Mostly the size. Too many players to remember who said what and who did what.

FZ. wrote:

Golden wrote:FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

It's a secret :P

It's ok, rico gave it away.

As for 'big crazy games' - I don't try to figure out everything that is going on. I focus on a handful of people (say, maybe 10) that I feel like I have reads on or that have stood out to me in some way. Often I feel like there is three games going on at once, and entire plot lines I'm just not a part of.

It's only when the game begins to close in and get to a more reasonable size that I try to get reads on everyone and understand everything that is going on.

Golden wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Golden wrote:FZ, what is your first language? I had no idea.

It's a secret :P

It's ok, rico gave it away.

That easy to fool, ey?

The only compatriot I found on mafia forums so far is someone on Jesus Toast Mafia (never played here).

Golden wrote:As for 'big crazy games' - I don't try to figure out everything that is going on. I focus on a handful of people (say, maybe 10) that I feel like I have reads on or that have stood out to me in some way. Often I feel like there is three games going on at once, and entire plot lines I'm just not a part of.

It's only when the game begins to close in and get to a more reasonable size that I try to get reads on everyone and understand everything that is going on.

I usually don't survive that long...

I don't disagree Golden. I think I probably used language that sounded stronger than I intended -- I dig that certain structures and rules are traditional here and I don't want to sound like a mafia-xenophobic curmudgeon.

Obviously the methods I've honed for years in Mafia aren't really compatible with a survivalist game, but that doesn't mean I couldn't try other things. I think I would play completely differently in such a game and I'd probably be perceived as less useful, but maybe that's how it's gotta be.

so, how about bets on who is scum?