The Syndicate

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:01 am Angleshooting but I doubt Dyachei subs out as the last mafia here even if she has the champs game to play. It's just too harsh to whoever takes the sub spot imo lol.

can we not

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:02 am Alison, why don't you cop me?

mac seems convinced there's a difference check between you and ted and ted is getting copped tonight so it seems like a waste

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:02 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:01 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:56 am ted has claimed optimistic from Kid A and herm has verified there are 0 scum in Kid A. we know poison is town because she exposed the mafia role cop very early on. If poison confirms that ted is telling the truth, then ted has to be town.
And you're gonna check Poison Chan just to be sure right? Lol.
actually not too sure who to cop. could be dyachei since we have no info on that slot. could be SPF just to calm the tinfoil down but I really don't think she'll cop as anything but green so if I'm going for a gut shot I'll go for dyachei.

I think poison is pretty likely to be just town since she exposed samu for no reason early on. also I don't really buy that 2/3 song cop claims are scum, and she has been pretty transparent about her role unlike samu who claimed he had roleclaim restrictions
PC has pretty high 3p equity imo.

PC has been townie on play, has cooperated fully with the town, and has no reason to randomly out the mafia rolecop D2 and then also randomly hard confirm radishes for no reason. what 3P townsides that hard in that situation?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:04 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:03 am
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:02 am Alison, why don't you cop me?
mac seems convinced there's a difference check between you and ted and ted is getting copped tonight so it seems like a waste
I don't understand what you're saying. Come again?

according to mac, either you or ted is lying. that means one person between you and ted is scum.

ted is getting investigated tonight by poison chan's lie detector.

therefore, if mac is correct, investigating ted is the same as investigating you, and there is no need to waste a cop check on you.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am Most 3ps townside hard in that situation, or any. To scumside as 3p here would be to get flipped by the town lol.

how the hell do you win then? like if the town runs a train over the mafia how exactly do you plan to win?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am 3p "townsiding" completely depends on what type of player, their play style and random circumstances. Nobody is a robot that plays an X percentage town or mafia siding as 3p. That reason is silly to me.

I mean optimal 3P play (assuming your win con is hostile to both town and mafia, like an SK) involves siding with whoever is losing, because you don't want one side to crush the other and then come after you, you want to keep both town and mafia busy with each other while you slowly take control

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:07 am
Herm wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:45 pm Samusamu is one.

I don't really know about anyone else rn.

It would be one of Dizzie/Wigly. But Wigly was cleared by Poison.
@Dyslexicon are you the last mafia being a maniac?

if dizzy is the last mafia then he's the godfather or similar trying to bait a cop check. but I think there's some chance dizzy is just town and ted is scum who was praying poison was out of shots or who plans to roleblock poison or something.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:07 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:06 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am Most 3ps townside hard in that situation, or any. To scumside as 3p here would be to get flipped by the town lol.
how the hell do you win then? like if the town runs a train over the mafia how exactly do you plan to win?
By achieving whatever wincon is stated in your role that being flipped by the town is extremely not compatible with?

well if the town isn't distracted by the mafia and are spending all their time looking for you then you're done for, unless your role is so strong you can survive a 1v9 or something even with multiple clears (which poison actively contributed to by clearing radish) which seems imbalanced.

also my cop doesn't cop 3P, it only cops mafia. so if you think PC has 3P equity then asking me to cop her is pointless.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:09 am Why "according to Mac"? What do YOU thin, Alison?

An that is bullshit. Mac is a doll, but he's making fart noises there. I don't know Ted's alignment, but it's entirely possible that Tim was blocked that night and thus didn't perform his action.

Why is Ted getting investigated by Poison though? I mean, sure. But I'll also track him unless you want me to holster.

I want to know what you think, and not "If Mac is right", cause I'm town no matter Ted's alignment. This is a classic get two town for the price of one if Ted is town. Tell me why I've made the claims I have and gotten the results I have if I was mafia here. It's just a big nope. I don't care all that much, since we probably have time, but it's kind of just bad logic.

tracking ted is good. it means scum ted can't get away with roleblocking poison.

mac's point was simply that tim/ted/dizzy/wilgy are enmeshed in a fiesta of claims that involves at least 1 lie, maybe more. we know tim isn't lying as a hard fact, wilgy is checked green so he'd have to be exactly 3P or godfather. so on the balance of probabilities the biggest chance is that the liar is hidden between you and ted.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:10 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:07 am
Herm wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:45 pm Samusamu is one.

I don't really know about anyone else rn.

It would be one of Dizzie/Wigly. But Wigly was cleared by Poison.
@Dyslexicon are you the last mafia being a maniac?
I'm clearly town.

Honestly, I think the last mafia is Alison. I don't think we have a cop. You can all laugh at me, and we'll see in the end. It's not me.

what is this tone switch the moment you realized you were thunderdoming someone who's going to get checked

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:12 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:12 am
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:09 am Why "according to Mac"? What do YOU thin, Alison?

An that is bullshit. Mac is a doll, but he's making fart noises there. I don't know Ted's alignment, but it's entirely possible that Tim was blocked that night and thus didn't perform his action.

Why is Ted getting investigated by Poison though? I mean, sure. But I'll also track him unless you want me to holster.

I want to know what you think, and not "If Mac is right", cause I'm town no matter Ted's alignment. This is a classic get two town for the price of one if Ted is town. Tell me why I've made the claims I have and gotten the results I have if I was mafia here. It's just a big nope. I don't care all that much, since we probably have time, but it's kind of just bad logic.
tracking ted is good. it means scum ted can't get away with roleblocking poison.

mac's point was simply that tim/ted/dizzy/wilgy are enmeshed in a fiesta of claims that involves at least 1 lie, maybe more. we know tim isn't lying as a hard fact, wilgy is checked green so he'd have to be exactly 3P or godfather. so on the balance of probabilities the biggest chance is that the liar is hidden between you and ted.
The roleblocker just died

oh whoops

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:12 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:10 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:07 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:06 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:05 am Most 3ps townside hard in that situation, or any. To scumside as 3p here would be to get flipped by the town lol.
how the hell do you win then? like if the town runs a train over the mafia how exactly do you plan to win?
By achieving whatever wincon is stated in your role that being flipped by the town is extremely not compatible with?
well if the town isn't distracted by the mafia and are spending all their time looking for you then you're done for, unless your role is so strong you can survive a 1v9 or something even with multiple clears (which poison actively contributed to by clearing radish) which seems imbalanced.

also my cop doesn't cop 3P, it only cops mafia. so if you think PC has 3P equity then asking me to cop her is pointless.
Can you self target by any chance?

i'll ask sloonei. why, do you want to have me tracked?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:15 am I think WIlgy being green checked makes it very likely there are mafia between Dyslexicon and Dyachei doesn't it

I could see a world with 3 tracker claims. but I did say I wanted to cop dyachei.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:16 am I am not at liberty to say why but suffice to say it's good

do you believe that it is +EV for town compared to copping dyachei? if so I'll check myself.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:17 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:16 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:15 am I think WIlgy being green checked makes it very likely there are mafia between Dyslexicon and Dyachei doesn't it
I could see a world with 3 tracker claims. but I did say I wanted to cop dyachei.
We've had four mafia flip so far and I see no evidence of strongman or of ninja in any of their claims. They seem massively overmatched in a world with three trackers and two watchers.

then I'll cop dyachei tonight (unless you still think copping myself is the best option).

between my cop on dyachei and poison's cop on ted it should give us a decent read on dizzy's alignment.

compensation for what? hally didn't do anything wrong.

like they never claimed their role and they never claimed their actions. all they said was, and I quote, "these three people have at least one mafia amongst them".

I guess we'll find out after the game. anyways I want to hear your thoughts on the way dizzy suddenly went "this is bullshit. alison is scum" the moment it became clear that he was gonna thunderdome ted who was going to get checked.

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:28 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 am I guess we'll find out after the game. anyways I want to hear your thoughts on the way dizzy suddenly went "this is bullshit. alison is scum" the moment it became clear that he was gonna thunderdome ted who was going to get checked.
it makes sense for him to do it as town

i think he is town

he was afk whole game, and the moment all of his teammates die, now he starts the tryhard?

compared to oddmerta who tryharded earlier, and the more teammates died, the less he tried?

there are mech reasons to townread oddmerta

but also why does it make sense for him to do it as town? why doesn't town dizzy just go "alright, I guess ted is the scum between us then, and poison's check will reveal he is lying"?

i mean, dizzy went on about how ted is probably town and that the thunderdome is "two town for the price of one". tell me again how town dizzy gets there on ted being town given the gamestate?

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:31 am samusamu tried VERY HARD to push the idea that mafia has a godfather

he kept talking about a camoflague

should be enough to remove any tinfoils about a godfather existing here

i think he was trying to get ppl to start yeeting / not trusting alisons' peeks

i agree

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:31 am a few thoughts about alison:

i was townreading alison because i didnt think she would clear so many people as mafia, but i just realized that if she was mafia, that would be her only option. it's not like she could claim guilty on town - and if she claimed roleblocked, it likely would not hold up to scrutiny

so while alison isn't town for clearing other players, it begs the question of why alison would choose to claim cop as mafia in the first place. if she wants to end-game as maf, it makes zero sense for her to claim a role that gradually eliminates the scummiest players from the POE pool while drawing more and more attention to herself when she doesn't die

i will hear out alison paranoia but i do not think it's likely in the slightest based on the information we have

not to mention that if I am scum I'd have hard bussed every single other member of my team while drawing a bit bullseye on my forehead for the 3P to shoot at. makes 0 sense whatsoever.

oh yes, and we still don't have a reasonable explanation for the n1 kill being missing other than the mafia shooting me and getting blocked by tutuu. so.

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:34 am the mech reasons to townread oddmerta as his soft claims. there are no mech stuff involving physical night action that involved another player unless im mistaken?

dizzy is disagreeing with the notion that there has to be 1 scum between him and ted cuz i guess he just disagrees / hes not seeing it. im also not seeing it. he didnt like being complacent about being put into the chop box. and its not scummy to express paranoia at the town core.

like, alison, i feel like u want dizzy to be scum because you got annoyed he scumread you, in my opinion

to be clear: we have strong reason to believe that one of dizzy and ted is lying. you're telling me dizzy has 0 suspicions on ted because "he's just not seeing it"?

also the mech reason to townread oddmerta is that oddmerta quoted some stuff from lotus flower which is possibly from the notification sent him by herm. herm only sends notifications to town people. so unless you believe that samu rolecopped herm and oddmerta is using that knowledge to whiteknight herm, you should believe oddmerta is town.

also don't give me that stuff about how ted has been so incredibly townie on play that town dizzy has no choice but to suspect V/V because he literally tried to get us to move off samu yesterday

tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:40 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 am so unless you believe that samu rolecopped herm
why not? he had 3 nights to cop him

you'd think the mafia rolecop would cop the people who didn't claim their roles, rather than the people who did

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:08 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:42 am
tutuu wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:40 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 am so unless you believe that samu rolecopped herm
why not? he had 3 nights to cop him
you'd think the mafia rolecop would cop the people who didn't claim their roles, rather than the people who did
That's not how that role worked. He got rolecards from scanning songs not people.

how would samu know herm's song?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:40 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:26 am I guess we'll find out after the game. anyways I want to hear your thoughts on the way dizzy suddenly went "this is bullshit. alison is scum" the moment it became clear that he was gonna thunderdome ted who was going to get checked.
I'm not saying you are definitely scum. I have no fucking clue, if that's not clear. But I severely dislike you saying "Mac says" when it surrounds something that clearly is very ill conceived, and I think you should know that. Clearly, I don't claim to be tracker, a role that can be verified in terms of the results it necessarily will give. And clearly I don't make up some useless lie about a track that couldn't have found place. You will have better luck trying to argue me mafia tracker or something. Do not claim I could have lied, cause I don't believe you believe that. And you didn't a few days ago. I don't see how that logic has changed for you. And I don't see why you need to see "Mac says".

I also absolutely dislike that you use the language of checking Ted to "get a better idea about Dizzy". You should check Ted in hopes he turns up mafia. Why are you ready to argue that I would be godfather for some reason, but anyone else who comes up town can't be? What I dislike is that this is very bad in the case that Ted is indeed town. I don't know though. Maybe he's scum, then great, forget I said anything. I've been riding rest of town this whole game, I've kind of had to. Sorryboutit. You all clearly have a better grasp on this game than I do. But I still have the right to call things as I see it and question when something doesn't sit right with me. And I still think cop is odd one out and a role that doesn't seem to fit this setup very much. I just do. Again, I might be wrong.

It's not clear that it's ill-conceived to me tbh. Mac's only premise is that someone is lying in you/tim/ted, which seems likely since the night action claims are inconsistent. I don't believe that you have a reason to lie and that's why I didn't suspect you at all a couple of day phases, but the POE is shrinking and just about everyone else has been checked clean, so... who's mafia if not you/ted? Is it the dyachei slot? Oddmerta? I'm planning to cop dyachei tonight unless Mac says otherwise, and I have mech reasons to believe that Oddmerta is town.

I had my suspicions on you being godfather because you were begging to be checked and that's godfather behavior lol. But I no longer have those suspicions since tutuu has pointed out that samu spewed there being no godfather. My general point is that like, why are you so worried about the possibility of ted being town when from your POV every piece of evidence points to him being scum?

Also "your cop claim is unbelievable because it doesn't fit the setup" is a nonsensical accusation. What about the setup doesn't it fit? I'd say 3 trackers doesn't fit the setup more than a cop, and I'm willing to buy 3 trackers. If you're going to want to get me exed you're going to have to do way better than that.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:45 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:31 amthere are mech reasons to townread oddmerta

but also why does it make sense for him to do it as town? why doesn't town dizzy just go "alright, I guess ted is the scum between us then, and poison's check will reveal he is lying"?

i mean, dizzy went on about how ted is probably town and that the thunderdome is "two town for the price of one". tell me again how town dizzy gets there on ted being town given the gamestate?
What the fuck? I don't know about Ted. I have no idea. I know he targeted Tim, and he said so himself. Tim at least didn't die. My opinion on Ted is a solid meh, but there's absolutely no reason why both me and Ted can't both be town. If I didn't think that I would've tunnelled Ted for a couple of days already. I think Tim was likely just roleblocked on N1, if that is possible. If not, I don't know. But me and Ted are not in a one off "one of us have to be lying" and haven't been at any point during this game. I actually know for a fact that Ted isn't lying about his target. So I don't know where you get that idea from.

if you and ted are both town then how do you explain the tim/ted/dizzy/wilgy conflict?

you claim that you tracked ted to tim. we know that tim roleblocked ted. if your track is right... shouldn't you be suspecting ted of being a strongman? like you bring up the probability that tim was roleblocked, but...

1) on N1, mafia know that tim is town and telling the truth about his role.
2) tim has openly claimed that his role is super useless on N1.

out of all the players in the game, you think samu chose tim to roleblock out of all people? okay, let's say 3P is a redirector and put samu on tim. or maybe samu had a bad feeling about tim and thought he was FPSing and secretly has a monster role.

do you weigh the % probability of this outcome being high? and if not why would you even be so uncomfortable with the idea that ted isn't town? we know the mafia have a strongman kill in some capacity. surely it would be a simpler explanation to assume ted is scum than to come up with a farfetched story about how samu roleblocked tim somehow, and then went first in the night action resolution order?

like if I'm town in your position I just go "ok flip ted then lmao". I don't have any fear because in my mind the simplest and most likely explanation is that ted is just strong. that was the conclusion that a bunch of people had and it's why we ran ted up.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:47 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:13 am Dyslexicon holstering on Oddmerta might be kinda outing too. If his claim is actually just fake or incomplete he might have just not been able to track Oddmerta at all?
God fucking damn it. Last time I checked the thread Oddmerta was mech cleared. My instinct was to think the opposite, then everyone told me how Odd was mech cleared town.

NOW I'm thinking that if Odd actually had the result of Herm checking his album and he was town, he should've fought way way way harder for Herm being town.

town odd has no way to know if the notif comes from scum or town since it's not inconceivable that scum herm sent him a notification. but herm knows for a fact that anyone who gets a notification is town, which is why herm townread odd so hard. not saying there's 0 universes in which odd is scum but on the balance of probabilities it's not the most likely. at any rate odd definitely tried to fight against the herm exe.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:53 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:38 amto be clear: we have strong reason to believe that one of dizzy and ted is lying. you're telling me dizzy has 0 suspicions on ted because "he's just not seeing it"?

also the mech reason to townread oddmerta is that oddmerta quoted some stuff from lotus flower which is possibly from the notification sent him by herm. herm only sends notifications to town people. so unless you believe that samu rolecopped herm and oddmerta is using that knowledge to whiteknight herm, you should believe oddmerta is town.
If you have strong reasons to believe "one of me and Ted is lying", then you should've had a strong reason to believe that for days already. Our claims has been out in the open for a long time. What are we even supposed to be lying about?

I need to check if it says in Herm's role flip that someone would be notified with Herm's song. If Odd is mafia, is there other ways he could know Herm's song? If Odd already knew Herm was town, it's not hard to go wink wink nudge nudge in thread. Blagh. I'm not clear on the details here, and I shouldn't even be here right now.

Also, I tracked Samu to Tutu, and Tutu was right that Samu was in fact the roleblocker. So I outed that, even if we didn't act on it immediately because of Dya's track on Herm. Tbh I don't even know why you yeeted Samu last day, I didn't read. But if that was a reason why, then give me creds lol.

ok, let me put it this way. we know for a fact that tim roleblocked ted.

ted claims to have visited tim. and, you claim to have tracked ted to tim.

from ted's POV, knowing he was roleblocked, he would have to think that your track is a lie. you actually never tracked him anywhere but you falsely claimed he did to make tim look like a liar wrt his roleblock.

from your POV, knowing that ted went to tim, you would have to think that ted is a strongman who broke past tim's roleblock, since you know for a hard fact that ted went to tim.

I'll give you credit for the samu track, sure. I don't think you'd want to hard bus a buddy there.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:30 am You guys are making several mistakes in your reasonings

We don’t know “for a fact” that Tim roleblocked me.

Tim could’ve been roleblocked.

first of all there's no indication in samu's role that he has priority over tim's roleblock. if both roleblockers fire at the same time then tim would fire before samu's roleblock on him resolves. so unless there's a hidden rule that scum roleblockers go first, that doesn't hold water.

second of all it would require that samu fire his roleblock at tim, who at that time was claiming that his ability was a doublevote or some shit. like short of samu going for some super hard read that tim is secretly a really powerful town role FPSing with a fake claim, that doesn't seem likely.

basically there's a lot of assumptions that would have to happen in the "tim got roleblocked" scenario and while I concede it's theoretically possible it always requires a lot of stuff to go haywire or act in odd ways.

and this is why you need to see that people are going to have to suspect you no matter what [mention]Dyslexicon[/mention], there is no use complaining about how poor our logic is when you can't refute it, and going "I'm townie on play" when you've been slanking all game and "why would I make up such a stupid lie as mafia" when it seems obvious to me that for this gamestate to happen someone has to have made up a stupid lie (note: samu got caught because he made up a stupid lie) are just not good enough defenses to stop us from suspecting you when the POE is squeezes as tiny as it is.

also I don't know why you're so unhappy about being scumread given that you've self-admittedly not done much over the course of the game and there's a 50% chance we exe ted instead depending on night results anyway

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:33 am
tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:30 am You guys are making several mistakes in your reasonings

We don’t know “for a fact” that Tim roleblocked me.

Tim could’ve been roleblocked.
Hi. We're apparently supposed to thunderdome. We're confirmed scum to each other for some reason. I'm the godfather that lied about being a tracker, cause I thought that was very clever and I surely would get away with that. You're a strongman, but not one that kills. We are both lying, or at least one of us are. If you don't tunnel me, you're confirmed scum. But since I don't tunnel you, that also makes me confirmed scum. It's a scumundrum.

strongman happened n1, strongman kill happened n2.

ted can be strongman who forces through all night actions, and has some scum ability he did to ted. on n2 he didn't use that ability and was picked to carry the kill onto hally instead.

also I'm just going to say it. "I wouldn't do something so stupid as scum" is not a defense that holds water with me any more for the rest of the game. I don't think you're the godfather because samu spewed there was none but I'm thinking there's a legitimate possibility you did falsely claim tracker. I won't say it's a certainty and if you put a gun to my head I'd say ted is more likely to flip scum than you, but if you're going to do jack shit all game and then complain that we think you'd make a claim that makes no sense... well, "not reading anything or following the game" is how you get to a claim that makes no sense.

again, samusamu made a claim whose results "could be verified" and that "he wouldn't be able to get away with if he was mafia". he said he could voyeur and he could not. he was caught because people realized that he got his claimed voyeur action incorrect. so forgive me if I'm thinking that maybe the mafia are willing to claim roles that are "verifiable".

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:41 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:37 am
tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:30 am You guys are making several mistakes in your reasonings

We don’t know “for a fact” that Tim roleblocked me.

Tim could’ve been roleblocked.
first of all there's no indication in samu's role that he has priority over tim's roleblock. if both roleblockers fire at the same time then tim would fire before samu's roleblock on him resolves. so unless there's a hidden rule that scum roleblockers go first, that doesn't hold water.
Where do you have this from?

I think a roleblock blocks another roleblock every time. ????

There's no consensus on how mutual roleblocks work. There's a short discussion on this page about how to resolve multiple roleblockers blocking each other. It indicates, in short, that the outcome of such ambiguous roleblock resolutions is not clear, and is determined by the exact way that the host resolves night actions. This method is hidden to us - we don't know the system or methodology that Sloonei uses to resolve night actions. Thus it is unclear whether Tim can even be roleblocked in the way you're suggesting. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's another assumption (that roleblocks work the way you think they do) that you'd have to add to the chain of assumptions (including samu trying to snipe someone who claimed a bad role, etc.) required in order to arrive at "tim was roleblocked and never targeted ted on n1".

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:48 am All cops on me, all trackers on me

Also, everyone remember

imagine getting upset about something that hasn't happened yet and blaming people for things they haven't done

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:48 am Oddmerta seemed to be softing cop when he hardcore pushed against JPICs claim but two alignment cops is a no.

Surely Sloonei wouldn't just like only ban townies from claiming or like at least not tip off the mafia that it's safe to refuse to claim or something.

Samusamu claimed he couldn't claim various aspects of his role.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:51 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:49 am
tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:48 am All cops on me, all trackers on me

Also, everyone remember

There is one lie detector and one tracker on you.
yeah but you don't know if they're town tho

it doesn't matter at all.

if, for example, poison chan tells us that you're town and telling the truth, then you're just town. either she's scum in which case you aren't because there's only one mafia left, or she's town and telling the truth about her check.

the only scenario in which PC's check on you can be fake is if you're mafia and PC is 3P who townsided like crazy and is also skilled enough to be extremely townie on play despite having a history of always being executed D1 because they're super obvious mafia and is now betraying the town by faking a green check on you...

so basically the only way that falls apart is in some super contrived and unlikely scenario that I'm not going to bother playing around.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:54 am Lol Alison I was being sarcastic

It is my way of coping with the fact that I'm hard cleared since D2 and you guys decide to put every town investigative on me

you are not hard cleared since D2. you think you are hard cleared, but you aren't. you are about to be hard cleared if PC confirms you are telling the truth about your song.

I have no idea why you're making such a big fuss about this. We have a huge numerical advantage and a very small POE. If I was you I'd be looking forward to being unassailably green checked and watching the mafia get slowly but surely boxed in.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:54 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:39 am basically there's a lot of assumptions that would have to happen in the "tim got roleblocked" scenario and while I concede it's theoretically possible it always requires a lot of stuff to go haywire or act in odd ways.

and this is why you need to see that people are going to have to suspect you no matter what @Dyslexicon, there is no use complaining about how poor our logic is when you can't refute it, and going "I'm townie on play" when you've been slanking all game and "why would I make up such a stupid lie as mafia" when it seems obvious to me that for this gamestate to happen someone has to have made up a stupid lie (note: samu got caught because he made up a stupid lie) are just not good enough defenses to stop us from suspecting you when the POE is squeezes as tiny as it is.

also I don't know why you're so unhappy about being scumread given that you've self-admittedly not done much over the course of the game and there's a 50% chance we exe ted instead depending on night results anyway
1. This has nothing to do about me slanking this game. Using "you haven't done anything" against me is a non argument, and pure smearing. I've done what I can. I've tried to cooperate all I can. I used a track and tracked a roleblocker to Tutu.

2. I have refuted your "logic" up and down as far as I'm concerned. If you want to claim that it takes a lot of assumptions to say that Tim was roleblocked when I know for a fact that something happened to his block then right back at you times a hundred for your assumptions about me being mafia here. You have have to assume that 1) I'm an idiot that chose to lie for no reason. This IS a strong defence, and you shouldn't pretend it's not. 2) I chose to track Samu to Tutu and out the result because I hate my teammates. Notice also how hedgy Samu was about being clear about that result. 3) I'm an idiot who faked a role that gets verifiable results.

3. Why I care is if PoE is "You're about 50 % to be scum" then I know you're all about 50 % to be wrong about your PoE. I still hope you're not.

It's cool if it's Ted, I tend to think it's not. Sue me. Maybe it is. I trust Mac and Tutu to be absolute town, and I trust Juliets to be town. I don't know why SPF is town, but sure why not. You're probably town just due to the fact that faking cop is long term terrible. I have my doubts only because the claim just doesn't fit well to me. Whatever. Wilgy is town by your check. It might be Oddmerta tbh. Dya at least has a track. Mafia tracker, meh. I don't remember anyone else. LC. I don't know anything about him, I think maybe you checked him as well as Nanook.

no, dizzy, you know that something happened to his block. the rest of us don't. we don't share the same information as you, so there's no point arguing with me and telling me that I'm a shit player because I don't see how you're obvious town.

think about it from my point of view. I do not know that something happened to Tim's block. For all I know the block went through and the people who said it didn't are lying. The only person who knows for a certainty if you are lying is you. Which means that yes, you have strong reason to believe you're town, no shit, but the rest of us don't have that knowledge. So don't expect us to act on information we don't have. If you want to say "I know you are wrong" yeah okay fine. Obviously anyone suspected of being scum is going to tell the accuser that they are wrong. But don't start making a fuss about why it was wrong to suspect you in the first place because the reasons you have for not suspecting you rely on information that only you have.

you have have to assume that 1) I'm an idiot that chose to lie for no reason. This IS a strong defence, and you shouldn't pretend it's not. 2) I chose to track Samu to Tutu and out the result because I hate my teammates. Notice also how hedgy Samu was about being clear about that result. 3) I'm an idiot who faked a role that gets verifiable results.

again, keeping it real with you. 1) is not a strong defense. samu chose to lie for no reason. he could have easily said "I can't claim anything about my role just like spf/mac/odd, sorry". instead he chose to fake a voyeur action that was easily verifiable, and we verified it and it didn't check out, so we executed him and he flipped scum. I repeat, we have a flipped scum who lied for no reason. So "I wouldn't lie for no reason" isn't something that proves you aren't scum. It strongly suggests you aren't, and that's why I believe that you are the town between you and ted, but if everyone else is mech cleared then we have assume that you lying is a thing that could happen.

I already gave you credit for 2), another reason why I think you're the town over ted. not sure why you're hung up on this.

my response to 3) is the same as my response to 1).

I have no idea why you're so pissed off about being in the POE when you aren't even at the bottom of the POE (I explicitly said I suspect ted over you multiple times) and we can afford quite a few misexes before we're in real trouble.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:00 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:48 am required in order to arrive at "tim was roleblocked and never targeted ted on n1".
You're doing it the wrong order for me. I KNOW that Tim didn't get to Ted that night. I don't need to arrive to that conclusion since I'm already there. Do you get that?

You're trying to argue that "I should have" some sort of mindframe that I necessarily can't have.

Also:

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:29 pm Responding to a private question:
A roleblocker can be blocked by another roleblocker.
I interpret this as a roleblock would just block another roleblock of the latter was aimed at someone else.

yeah, so if you're town here, you know we're wrong. but the same can be said for anyone with a green role PM who ever got suspected of being scum.

The question is, how do we arrive at that conclusion? and if we don't, how can you possibly blame us for not assuming it's true?

step into my shoes dizzy. pretend you're me for a second. how would alison, with all the information she has, know for a fact that tim had his roleblock messed with?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:04 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:58 amno, dizzy, you know that something happened to his block. the rest of us don't. we don't share the same information as you, so there's no point arguing with me and telling me that I'm a shit player because I don't see how you're obvious town.

think about it from my point of view. I do not know that something happened to Tim's block. For all I know the block went through and the people who said it didn't are lying. The only person who knows for a certainty if you are lying is you. Which means that yes, you have strong reason to believe you're town, no shit, but the rest of us don't have that knowledge. So don't expect us to act on information we don't have. If you want to say "I know you are wrong" yeah okay fine. Obviously anyone suspected of being scum is going to tell the accuser that they are wrong. But don't start making a fuss about why it was wrong to suspect you in the first place because the reasons you have for not suspecting you rely on information that only you have.
I'm not saying you're a shit player. I'm saying it's obvious that I wouldn't lie about an easily verifiable thing. That is just a fact. I don't think that's very radical. I understand that nobody else knows my role for sure. If we all knew each other's roles, then mafia as a concept would't work. I'm not asking you to know, I'm asking you to deduce.

But if you don't want to do that, I can take the position of Tim 2.0 as he predicted. Sure.

This is not a "we only have your word for it problem" as you are posing it as. There's TONS of context here. The "somebody has to be lying" is the reason we've misyeeted in this game so far. I'm just reminding you. Don't say I didn't try.

the samu exe involved:

- scum lying about an easily verifiable thing
- us finding out and deducing that someone has to be lying and that someone was most likely him
- executing him based off that and him flipping scum

remind me again why that train of thought is so obviously wrong I should be chastised for following it again?

ftr, I don't think samu is a bad player. he has experience playing on mafia sites. he was good enough to be hard townread by several good town players even while his team was falling apart around him. yet he lied about something easily verifiable. why? was it nerves? was it an elaborate way of conceding by trolling as much as possible before he gets found out? did the scum team figure that they'd go for the audacious play of just making bold role claims and hoping nobody notices they're lies?

I don't know, but I do know that an intelligent person has been caught in an easily verifiable lie that he has no reason to be making. So spare me the rhetoric about how I should never consider that possibility because it's just stupid to think someone would do that. I'm not even saying it's the most likely possibility, just that it's one possibility and we'll have to seriously consider it if every other option gets ruled out.

arguing about ted seems stupid when we'll get solid data about his role in less than a day anyway

to be clear I'm not annoyed that you are saying "hey guys im town, you are wrong if you think im scum, heres all the evidence that proves me town" because I've done exactly that this game

I'm annoyed that you are making it sound like we're suspecting you baselessly or for no reason when that's not true

tedxtr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:11 am Actually, yes, it is stupid that me and Dizzy have to be saying that we're both getting checked so you should solve the game with villa!us in your eyes until then and that all suspicion is futile.

We either are red peeked tomorrow or green peeked. If we're green peeked then you wasted 24 hours trying to prove a point.

Move on.

who's checking dizzy?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:14 am One thing that seems relatively clear at this point is that the 3p doesn't have kills so that points to survivor which also points to them townsiding which also points to idc about them anymore either.

i think we discussed this earlier and we determined that we should pretend like the 3P is evil because if they aren't and we exe them then who cares, we'll just lock the last mafia and win, and if they are then obviously we want to catch them

we also figurd we should hunt the mafia first though since they actually have a kill

also mac do you still have a good reason for me to self target or

does anyone want to play tictactoe

I really really wanted to get to a point where we had a mech lock on nutella and then I could claim scum with mac and start playing tictactoe in the thread but we never got to that point (well we did but we didn't know it so we had to play around the possibility that we actually didn't).

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