The Syndicate

Hello! I rolled wolf, looking forward to killing all of you in your sleep!

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:47 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:13 pm Mafia team

112
nutella
proto

disgusting

Anyway I'm just tunnelling this until I have flips and stuff.

Why these 3? Just because they haven't spoken?

Also my early reads are that Mac, Amy and tutuu are town. I agree with Amy's towncase on Mac and her description of his meta fits with what I saw in Space Invaders. I have a 100% success rate at finding tutuu as town really early so far, so just trust me on that one.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:38 am Meat reads are scummy tbh

I prefer vegetable reads.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:05 am If i had tmi on alison that shes town id sheep her on mac town

Id probably sheep most townreads thrown by anyone directed at anyone

Early townreads are always good and correct and early scumreads are less than ideal and not very accurate in my personal and subjective view of mafia theory

there is no real difference between townreads and scumreads, how correct they are depends on how well you know the player, how good the player is at projecting town to you, how good you are at reading people etc.

the idea that one type of read is easier to make than another mostly comes about because random townreads are more likely to be correct than random scumreads because people are more likely to rand town. If your townreads are 4x as likely as your scumreads to be correct then townreads and scumreads have the same accuracy in reality.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:13 am the other way around i think. ur scumreads need to be 4x times more accurate than rand for them to compete with a townread, no?

and beside that, just in general, like. town can do literally anything. by making a scumread, u are judging what a town can or cant do. thats rly hard to do. ive seen town do literally anything. i havent seen scum do literally anything. by making a townread ur judging what a scum would or wouldnt do. thats a bit easier. so its more accurate in my personal and subjective warped view of mafia theory

No because it's not really indicative of anything. You're basically saying "if you point to a random player and say they're town you're more likely to be right than if you say they're scum". That's true in theory but you shouldn't be pointing to random players at all, you should be trying to find actual ways to determine to a high probability the alignment of the people you sort rather than trying to unhelpfully inflate your score by making use of the way the rand works. Or to put it another way, while a random read is 4x more likely to be correct if it's a townread, you want your reads to be way more accurate than random, in which case trying to catch scum is very useful since you get way more out of a correct scumread than a correct townread.

Also the reason you've seen town do literally anything but you haven't seen scum do literally anything is because people don't make an effort to widen their range as scum. I seem to remember you thinking that digging up ten of a player's old games to meta trawl them was one of the things scum can't do, so it's not something you should be relying on too much.

Which isn't to say that you shouldn't have townreads - I don't have any scumreads myself in the current gamestate. I'm just saying that you should make the reads that make the most sense with the information you have, and not care too much about whether they're townreads or scumreads. If they're logical, they're logical.

112 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:14 am Town
tutuu
Amy
Urist
Mac

I hate this post.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:21 am 112 (is) townread, i like how he just listed his reads without explanation. no meta on him but based off of policy only i think its towny for the average joe to not articulate and explain themself.

also im just mindmelding with him, i have the same reads (all of them except unsure on joseph yet) and i also thought proto had a scummy opener

like "as a reminder, day 0 is meme day and we skip night and go direct to day 1 after this, right?" - proto should know this already, he's not an airhead like me, this looked to me like scum filler

but i wanna respect my choice to abstain from scumreads just like shao lin monks abstain from stuff in order to reach enlightenment

IMO if you're town you should not be intentionally ignoring relevant information because you have low confidence in your ability to translate that information into useful reads

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:24 pm 112 wolf

Alison's posts are boring and nai as usual :P

I literally claimed scum in my first post to spice things up and you call me boring

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:40 pm

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:39 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:47 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:13 pm Mafia team

112
nutella
proto

disgusting

Anyway I'm just tunnelling this until I have flips and stuff.

Why these 3? Just because they haven't spoken?

Also my early reads are that Mac, Amy and tutuu are town. I agree with Amy's towncase on Mac and her description of his meta fits with what I saw in Space Invaders. I have a 100% success rate at finding tutuu as town really early so far, so just trust me on that one.

All three of these posted when you made the post Alison, how did you miss this?

hmn wait sorry I believe it's all three of them, not of these

must have been very unmemorable posts then

112 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:41 pm not wolf

tony = paranoid cop, nutella = out to lunch

go hunt someone who's actually scum

Why don't you want them to hunt you?

If you're town you should be happy to attract scrutiny from other players so you can engage with them and show them that you're town. Telling them to go look elsewhere is productive in no universe. This is the issue I had with your entrance as well, the engagement was shallow to nonexistent and you felt like you were just swinging by to drop your takes rather than trying to like talk to people and find out what they are.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:11 pm like it doesnt fit with nutella's persona? unless she's close friends with alison but i havent seen them act like friends before, unless it happened without me realizing? is it possible im overthinking this? but my gut just said it was a w/w post

I don't understand how it makes sense to be like "I'm going to focus on looking for townreads because I think scumreads have a low accuracy rate" and then make this post.

protocultures wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:06 pm pretty sure it was Alison who was describing that sometimes they like to get scrumread at start of game and then climb out of the hole they dug for themselves as some sort of challenge. Might also be toitally mistaking that for another player. Cant 100% be sure it was alison. If it was, someone else can probably confirm it.

Open wolfing is also something Alison would do as mafia. It is also something they would need to do as actual mafia since they do it as town for balance reasons. You either dont understand this logic, or you do.

I have seen tutuu be more towny when town. She is not lock town to me at the moment. She in POE with everyone else.

No hard town reads or scumreads other than Alison atm.

Joseph prides himself on being good at mafia. He currently thinks I am mafia. Gonna omgus and lean Joseph as mafia here for scumreading me. Not as direct omgus, but more based on the fact that he should be able to read me as town. Granted I havent been very towny, but even so.

This post itself likely to get me more scumread. oh well.

Game is easier if I am scumread because when everyone pockets me as clear town, the game is harder. OMGUS to find the mafia usually isnt a terrible strategy.

wow everything this post asserts about me is a lie

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:28 pm i have no reason not to townread joseph now with amy reversing her read. pretty sure when someone is consensus townread by so much ppl they're spewed town by the thread itself. both correctly townread by towns and a bunch of wolves TMIng

this doesn't sound true

if I am scum and my scum buddy has a strong entrance and everyone townreads them I'm going to be like "oooh, this person can go deep" and nod my head and agree with the townreads on them

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:53 pm [VOTE: nutella] aubergine

based off of my w/w read with alison (nutella calling alison a boring poster which i perceived as aggressive and uncharacteristic of nutella, and alison not fighting it back the way id imagine u fight back someone calling u that)

independently i have no idea how to read nutella and i wanted to townread alison

i feel like this post is predicated on feeling like the word boring is a lot more insulting than it actually is when you actively expect someone with my meta/personality to get deeply offended and fight back just because nutella offhandedly mentions it

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:04 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:01 pm goodness apparently it's death, taxes, and tsp forcing izzet in draft and going 0-3

my last game i did at least 10 misplays and still won with 1 hp left cuz of absolutely disgusting temur adventures fae of wishes pulling tormod's crypt against boros cycling. 0 mana counter ur entire deck btw get fucked

tier 1 deck wins against deck whose only good point is that it's cheap to craft on MTGA?

say it ain't so

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:44 am You’re mafia for playing magic tbh

Reads
(in order)
Teferi:

- tutuu
- Amy
- Mac
- Urist
- protocultures
- Carotenoid

Nissa Revane:

- TSP
- Colin
- nutella
- everyone not specifically mentioned on this list

Sorin Markov:
- TenThousandCalories
- 112

I think the Amy push is pretty bad and Amy is fairly obviously town, nutella is like an unobjectionable player and I'm confused why there's controversy over her (and I would encourage people who feel strongly about nutella to talk to me about her), and I also am pretty uncomfortable with the amount of people asking for potato passes since we can't realistically grant one to everyone who's asked for one without severely compromising gamestate and I sort of think there probably are wolves trying to get a blank cheque to slank their way through the early game because they're seeing so many people explicitly or indirectly ask for and get passes to do so

I think it's pretty neat I managed to find 3 planeswalkers whose names started with T(own), N(ull) and S(cum) and also have those alignments reflected in their canon character

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:56 am Alison wolf for putting Teferi at the top tbh

Dimir Flash player detected

wait why is TSP voting mac

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:12 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:03 am wait why is TSP voting mac

He’s a wolf

I don't see it so can you please enlighten me

Why isn't proto higher? Paranoia is a towntell for him.

Also why the hell is 112 so high

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:03 am have u seen his scum game alison?

i asked u about ur read on him earlier, i only now saw u have him at bottom of ur top townreads.

if i had a townread u i would definitely have him higher. i guess im still tunneling that initial post thingy which i perceived as scum filler. i did like his posts after that.

idk about 112 ive never played with her before nor have i heard of her. i just thought she looked towny. (for the same reasons i listed when i gave the townread)

I explained my read on 112: the entrance was weirdly reluctant to engage with people and the way they approached people scumreading them was dismissive and defensive.

I'm a little bothered by the ratio of the strength of your reads to the strength of your evidence backing those reads. You see a player who you know is largely unruffled by exciting things happening in thread not respond strongly to someone else offhandedly calling her boring, and you theorize that they're scum together distancing each other. Do you think nutella wouldn't call my posts boring if she was town? Do you think I would react strongly as town? Why is this a distancey post anyway given that nutella isn't actually calling me scum?

What evidence do you have that proto is 100% sure on how D0 works? Why would scum!proto pretend not to know how D0 works? Do you really think the player that writes a thesis paper every game has trouble finding things to say to appear present in the thread as scum? Note: you're self-admittedly "tunnelling proto" based on this scum filler read, to the point where you've mentioned that there's a good chance you're just ignoring other posts he's made that are town-indicative.

Help me get there on this weirdly confident tone you have when it comes to these reads. Strong reads based on small things would be in-character for someone like nanook, but I don't think you're nanook, especially with what you said earlier about not trusting early scumreads.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:06 am if im wrong on 112 being town and shes mafia im probably wrong on mostly everything. i dont think 112 would be mafia with nutella/alison. so the mafia team would be something very level 1 like 112 + uhhhh ... turnip head plus someone else

if im right on 112 being town and i had a dayvig id shoot nutella or alison right now

Why is 112 at all incompatible with me and nutella?

Also "I would shoot nutella/Alison as a dayvig" is a horrendous take and I'm no longer townreading you

112 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:09 am Amy and tutuu are both involved in the game in a way I wouldn't expect they could create as scum- townleans there still.

Urist seems to be coasting a little bit and isn't offering too much of substance, but I like their tone and they seem to be inside a cocoon of genuine uncertainty around the gamestate. I maintain my townlean.

Colin is way on the outskirts of things, dropping in to comment little bits here and there without much solving actions. I think he's a good person to put under the microscope.

FWIW I think this is NAI for Colin since I've incorrectly read him as scum in a couple of games for doing exactly this. Obviously it doesn't make him town because he can do this as scum too, but it certainly isn't a scumtell.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:19 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:13 am

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:06 am if im wrong on 112 being town and shes mafia im probably wrong on mostly everything. i dont think 112 would be mafia with nutella/alison. so the mafia team would be something very level 1 like 112 + uhhhh ... turnip head plus someone else

if im right on 112 being town and i had a dayvig id shoot nutella or alison right now

Why is 112 at all incompatible with me and nutella?

Also "I would shoot nutella/Alison as a dayvig" is a horrendous take and I'm no longer townreading you

because i didnt think u would both start bussing her

There's 0 chance you count me out as a mafia teammate with 112 just because I pushed her after what happened in Space Invaders.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:18 am yes i dont think nutella would call your posts boring if she was town

why

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:21 am

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:18 am yes i dont think nutella would call your posts boring if she was town

why

because its very out of line with her character based off of my perception of her

elaborate more on this perception please

What is the basis of this perception about nutella? This is a very weirdly specific read.

Also nutella indicated she was dropping a "truth bomb" so I don't understand why you think it's banter rather than just a straightforward observation about my play.

willing to believe this is just a bad reach and not some made up scum narrative

"I would dayvig nutella/alison right now" is still horrible

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:25 am What is the basis of this perception about nutella? This is a very weirdly specific read.

Also nutella indicated she was dropping a "truth bomb" so I don't understand why you think it's banter rather than just a straightforward observation about my play.

the basis of this perception about nutella is literally ... how i perceive nutella. like... ?

"truth bomb" is synonymous with banter

I was asking you about the basis of your perception here. For a perception to develop in your mind, you must first be exposed to behavior or observations that would cause this perception to be developed.

For example, "I perceive proto to be a player that won't struggle with finding things to say" was an argument I used against you claiming proto's post was scum filler. The basis of this perception is the observation that proto frequently has lots of things to say and detailed analyses to make every game. This suggests that proto isn't a player who feels compelled to insert filler statements into his posts just to make himself look good.

I want to know what part of nutella's behavior, stated beliefs, observations, etc. caused this very specific perception of nutella, because I'm not really seeing it.

112 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:36 am willing to believe this is just a bad reach and not some made up scum narrative

"I would dayvig nutella/alison right now" is still horrible

I think it's horrible in that it's probably not the right play, but I don't think it's horrible in the sense that tutuu's significantly more likely to flip scum for it.

I think tutuu would be more likely to be cautious about shooting experienced players who could prove to be significant assets to town if they are town, based on a single D0 read that she herself admits could easily be overthought. There are some players who are trigger-happy enough to blow away anyone they dislike, but I don't see tutuu as someone who would go rogue that hard. tutuu is also broadly concerned about making sure that people in the game like her and have fun in the game, and this is at odds with killing someone off the bat on a snap read D0 - a belligerent act that would surely run contrary to this self-image and would likely cause people to be severely annoyed with and dislike her if she was wrong (because it's bad play and everyone knows it).

In other words, I have severe doubts that this is a legitimate thought that tutuu would have as town, and think there's a decent chance that it's made up, perhaps to give off the false impression of conviction in one's reads, or attempting to come off as being tunnelled (and thus not as accountable for bad pushes), or simply to justify the strong tone she held in previous posts, which I suggested was largely incompatible with the actual evidence she puts forward for those reads.

tedxtr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:49 am one in mac / nutella might be wolf which would mean I'd have to drop my slank / meme shtick and push there which is a total drag

You've got my interest. Talk to me about this.

Also [VOTE: Turnip Head] aubergine

tedxtr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:06 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:51 am

tedxtr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:49 am one in mac / nutella might be wolf which would mean I'd have to drop my slank / meme shtick and push there which is a total drag

You've got my interest. Talk to me about this.

I think nutella hasn't shown any town trait and I didn't like her town read on proto, nor her read on me as that's kind of NAI behaviour for me - she's town reading "lhf" for very weak reasoning which she has shown in other scum games that it seems to be her MO mostly

I also think Mac's opening post reads are okay in a vacuum, in the sense that town can also do it but from personal experience, they are more reliable when it comes to scum reads rather than town reads ; so him (presumably) town reading Nutella just for that when she's experienced enough is maybe TMI-y

that's why I'm kinda stuck in between the two

Why "one in mac/nutella"? If your rationale is that they're both individually scummy then why not both?

Turnip Head wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:18 am What is LHF?

Hot take: this is the scummiest post in the game so far.

The only way I see to interpret TH's posts as coming from town is the interpretation that they're just very unmotivated or don't give a fuck and are just here to shitpost. This post indicates that they're actually tracking game-relevant conversations and to some degree care about the content of those conversations (or they wouldn't ask what LHF is, they'd just post a gif and laugh and go away for a bit), which in turn indicates that the "I don't care about anything in this game" attitude doesn't actually exist and they're intentionally choosing to not contribute at all.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:37 am 112 i dont know if you're a fan of early world building but if you're town, idk how u townread nutella in that situation. i guess its possible that ur town and ur correctly townreading her but who is left to be mafia from ur pov? say we're lucky and 10k flips maf, maybe turnip head too, who else? everyone else is being read by at least 1 person

this post seems to be driven by the underlying assumption that if 112 is town they have to automatically believe that all other people's townreads are correct and thus aren't allowed to townread nutella because it means the POE is too small to contain all the other scum

which is a very questionable assumption

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:31 pm (i thought about just leaving it naked but decided id explain)

i think alison is nitpicking very VERY VERY deeply into stuff similarly to how i remember her doing in space invaders and i dont remember her doing this as town.

like, the stuff that she is nitpicking into is irrelevant in the first place. i think town!alison recognizes that not everything is logical and moves on and adapts, and perhaps scum!alisons is more stubborn to nit and grit every single tiny detail

it is the literal core logic of your point about 112

this isn't an irrelevant side assumption, it's the entire reason why you think 112 isn't "allowed" to townread nutella

if we take away this assumption then your entire point falls apart

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:57 pm "tutuu is silly for assuming X Y Z" but alison is absolutely not silly and very logical for assuming that TH would drop a gif and laugh like a clown all game instead of asking what LHF is because maybe they just dont know what LHF is and they do seem to be consistent with popping in the tread from time to time and responding to the latest events

You are misinterpreting what my post says. My point is that the only interpretation of TH's actions as being anything but scummy involves on them being completely uninvolved in the thread. I do believe that TH doesn't know what LHF is and I do think that they want to open the thread from time to time and respond to the latest events. It is precisely because of that desire that I want to scumread them - because it removes the "I just didn't care" excuse from their pool.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:57 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:31 pm i think town!alison recognizes that not everything is logical and moves on and adapts

doubt it, she did the same thing in lion king and i scum read her for it, nearly to my own demise.

both of the quoted posts are horrible and untrue characterizations of my play and I challenge you provide a single instance in which this was true

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:37 am 112 i dont know if you're a fan of early world building but if you're town, idk how u townread nutella in that situation. i guess its possible that ur town and ur correctly townreading her but who is left to be mafia from ur pov? say we're lucky and 10k flips maf, maybe turnip head too, who else? everyone else is being read by at least 1 person

Explain how these three lines interact with each other tutuu. You're a person of interest for me, so it's natural for me to be interested in your logic. Don't play this off as "nitpicking irrelevant points". If you say something in the thread, I want to know your thought process, and if your motivation was what you claimed it to be, you should be eager to provide me that thought process.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:03 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:57 pm "tutuu is silly for assuming X Y Z" but alison is absolutely not silly and very logical for assuming that TH would drop a gif and laugh like a clown all game instead of asking what LHF is because maybe they just dont know what LHF is and they do seem to be consistent with popping in the tread from time to time and responding to the latest events

You are misinterpreting what my post says. My point is that the only interpretation of TH's actions as being anything but scummy involves on them being completely uninvolved in the thread. I do believe that TH doesn't know what LHF is and I do think that they want to open the thread from time to time and respond to the latest events. It is precisely because of that desire that I want to scumread them - because it removes the "I just didn't care" excuse from their pool.

why can only TH be town if they are completely uninvovled in the thread

why cant they only be 10% invovled in the thread and still be town

why is the threshhold 0 or 100

why cant it be something in between

because if they gave the slightest flying fuck about the game they would do something other than post gifs all day

It's a very simple logic that requires only extremely unobjectionable assumptions. Let me walk you through it.

Assumption 1: Townies who care more than 0% about the game try to further their win condition.
Assumption 2: TH knows that nothing they have done this game tries to further a town win condition.

Therefore:
If TH was town and cared more than 0% about the game, they would not do what they are doing right now.

Therefore:
If TH cares more than 0% about the game, they are not town.

Please pick out the assumption in this sequence that you disagree with.

IMO if you're going to call my posts nitpicky you should point to exactly what you think is nitpicky and explain why it's irrelevant and then explain why my argument that the post is actually relevant is wrong. Otherwise I'm allowed to pursue any line of inquiry I wish and if my top two scumreads don't want me to pursue that line of inquiry then I'm certainly not obliged to move away.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:08 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:04 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:37 am 112 i dont know if you're a fan of early world building but if you're town, idk how u townread nutella in that situation. i guess its possible that ur town and ur correctly townreading her but who is left to be mafia from ur pov? say we're lucky and 10k flips maf, maybe turnip head too, who else? everyone else is being read by at least 1 person

Explain how these three lines interact with each other tutuu. You're a person of interest for me, so it's natural for me to be interested in your logic. Don't play this off as "nitpicking irrelevant points". If you say something in the thread, I want to know your thought process, and if your motivation was what you claimed it to be, you should be eager to provide me that thought process.

idk how u townread nutella - i was frustrated because i was scumreading nutella at that time
who is left to be mafia from ur pov - i forgot 112 has colin as mafia. i thought they have 2 scumreads and 12 townreads
everyone else is ebring read by a tleast 1 perso n - this is me thinking out loud. something somthing im inclined to sheep townreads

" and if your motivation was what you claimed it to be, you should be eager to provide me that thought process." - maybe you assume too much?

i dont have motivation to use my fingers to type on my keys about stuff that i dont think will lead to anywhere

im not a literal person like u

id rather try to find alignments, i dont care if its "clean"

in my perception of ur town game u also care about alignmetns more than anything and ur willing to look over logical inconsistencies

Yeah, except it's very clear to me that it leads somewhere. If you don't see it, that's fine, but if you look at me explaining why I think it's relevant, then you should at least realize that I think it leads somewhere and therefore have good reasons to pursue this line.

I'm particularly interested in this line:

everyone else is ebring read by a tleast 1 perso n - this is me thinking out loud. something somthing im inclined to sheep townreads

This is the one I had an issue with. Because in my mind this should have absolutely no impact on someone's reads. What do I care if X is being townread by Y? Y could be wrong. Y could even be X's scumbuddy! So I'm curious why you felt the need to bring this idea at all into your response to 112.

Now it's clear to me that you don't see why your offhand remark is really relevant to your alignment, so I'm going to make it explicit why I think it's relevant: I think the thought process "someone being townread by someone else means that person is offlimits" is one that's not really likely to be engaged in by town except in very extreme playstyle differences. It's not just illogical - it's unnatural. It's not the kneejerk response people have, because the kneejerk response is to not blindly trust everyone that they don't actively scumread in a game about deception. I'm interested in unfolding why you have this unnatural-seeming response or thought process to 112's post. If you have a good reason for it or can clarify what you meant, that's fine. But if you don't, or if you persist in trying to move my attentions away from this line, then I have good reason to be very interested.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:14 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:08 pm IMO if you're going to call my posts nitpicky you should point to exactly what you think is nitpicky and explain why it's irrelevant and then explain why my argument that the post is actually relevant is wrong. Otherwise I'm allowed to pursue any line of inquiry I wish and if my top two scumreads don't want me to pursue that line of inquiry then I'm certainly not obliged to move away.

im not calling ur posts or arguments irrelevant im calling the end goal irrelevant

if im going to call your posts nitpicky then obv im not gonna satisfy ur request to nitpick the nitpick in return. since thats what i dislike in the first place

You think me being nitpicky makes me scum.

I don't think my posts are nitpicky and have provided good, clear reasons why they aren't.

If you cannot refute those reasons then your scumread is baseless. Don't bother trying to tell me "oh it's from the gut" or "I just get that vibe" - by definition, if you cannot respond to clear logical arguments against your case, then your case is baseless.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:11 pm "If TH was town and cared more than 0% about the game, they would not do what they are doing right now." - i dont see how

just cuz they havent gotten into the game yet doesnt mean they will just remain the same

ur assuming TH wont turn on their gamer mode and start solving

ur assuming they will remain a constant

If their intent was to "potato Day 1/2 and then start solving Day 3"...

1) I've already pointed out that I think this is an issue in this game in particular and that there's probably a scum trying to skive by using that very excuse. So this excuse doesn't really incline me to brush off anti-town behavior.

2) Townies who have this playstyle are usually well aware of it and inform the rest of town in advance that this is what they're doing rather than just completely ignoring them. Look at people like nanook or ted saying similar things, or Urist in Lion King. Is it possible that TH is town and has this playstyle and just chooses to completely skive off and not tell anyone else what they're doing? Maybe there's some possbility of that happening - but I think it is far more likely, and a far simpler explanation, to posit that they just aren't town. On the balance of probabilities, I'm inclined to scumread TH. Am I 100% convinced by this read? No. I'm convinced enough to vote them. I don't think I would dayvig them if I had the power. But if they perform an action that's, say, 80% to be coming from scum and 20% to be coming from town, I'm comfortable scumreading them for that.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:17 pm why do u think its weird of me to be naturally inclined to sheep townreads?

how many times have u seen me say "mafia is a team game etc etc"

how many times ive said im gonna sheep ur townreads

Sheeping X person's townreads is fine and in character.

Sheeping the townreads of everyone in the game that you aren't actively scumreading is absurd to the point that I have trouble finding it plausible that you believe it.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:21 pm

112 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:05 pm i can't into these meta discussions but do agree alison looks nitpicky/is forming complex reads out of very little information. although i think that's a towny trait more often than not.

please look at her iso here

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... &start=200

(scum)

i could be wrong in my memory and perception, but i perceive alison as nitpicking only as mafia. as town i can see where shes going and i can cheer her on as i read her posts and maybe it could just be my fault that im not seeing it here but i think she was telling the truth about being wendy the wolf

Of course you'll find it hard to see where I'm going when you baselessly dismiss my explanations of where I'm going with "I don't want to nitpick about you nitpicking" rather than reading them and trying to understand my logic. Are you interested in figuring out my alignment, or just in "winning" this argument so you can push your narrative about me?

Back to [VOTE: tutuu] aubergine, by the way.

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:24 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:22 pm

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:17 pm why do u think its weird of me to be naturally inclined to sheep townreads?

how many times have u seen me say "mafia is a team game etc etc"

how many times ive said im gonna sheep ur townreads

Sheeping X person's townreads is fine and in character.

Sheeping the townreads of everyone in the game that you aren't actively scumreading is absurd to the point that I have trouble finding it plausible that you believe it.

this was about me thinking about the 112 town world. and 10k and TH maf. so only 1 maf remaining. everyone else town, so all of those townreads are coming from town except for 1 potentially. noone was townreading 10k and TH

Yeah, but your objection was

"if there's only 1 maf remaining, then nutella has to be the last mafia so you can't townread her or you'll have too many townreads"

But it is unclear to me why you believe this (and as I pointed out it requires you to contort yourself through a leap of logic that's super reachy and unnatural) because the last mafia can be someone who's alive that isn't nutella, who was wrongly townread by town. Thinking a particular person is town and sheeping their reads is fine, but assuming that everyone else alive is town and their reads are all correct and nutella has to be the last scum left as the only person who isn't townread is not.

Also since the clarity & relevance of my logic has been called into question a few times this game I'm going to lay this out explicitly: I think my logic this game has been crystal clear and understandable to most people. While I have no doubt that there was some amount of genuine misunderstanding going on this game, the sheer amount of mischaracterization I'm seeing about the way I play this game/have played this game is large enough that I suspect some amount of it is intentional.

linki: I consider tone an aspect of play to be changed based on suitability to the present situation. I'm satisfied with my current tone at the moment, I think it has the effect I want it to have, and I see no reason to change it until the situation changes.