The Syndicate

Bo's treatment of tutuu reads inauthentic to me. The second post in there sets a foundation for suspicion (that tutuu is doing "too much"). It's a weak foundation. It's weakened further when Bo stepped off it in the next sentence. The thing I highlighted in orange smells of a "gotcha" over some silly and impossible claim of 100% correctness, in a bait-taken sort of way. Then the gifs and the final vote exchange is chummy and hard to take seriously. I direct my ire here primarily at Bo instead of tutuu because these are all his posts.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:12 pm Both claiming mafia and self-voting have been typical of SPF in our games together. Neither means anything to me.

Spf claims mafia
Jay: that's meaningless
Nanook claims mafia
Jay: maybe that's something...?

I don't care about claiming mafia. I barely care about that post anyway. But I did have non-zero capacity to see "my team told me to go post" as a real thing. Anyway I don't care about it at this point so go find something better to do.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:29 pm It was just a silly exchange

What is your read on tutuu?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:35 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:04 pm I'd appreciate if anyone that views KZA as a high-level suspect could talk to me about why. @MacDougall you're one. @TonyStarkPrime you implied something like that.

I find KZA's play lacking town edge. There has been nothing I personally have observed where I've got the sense there was a town solving mind behind the keyword. Only being drawn into looking townie by way of omgus.

Okay thanks. I can understand that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:37 pm I feel like Jay is about to snap vote me to reaction test.

My immediate boredom doubled just reading this post and imagining doing that right now

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:41 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:31 pm

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:29 pm It was just a silly exchange

What is your read on tutuu?

town-lean.

Why?

Why do I have to smack you with a quote pile "case" to get this read into the thread?

Do you have other reads?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:43 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:38 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:37 pm I feel like Jay is about to snap vote me to reaction test.

My immediate boredom doubled just reading this post and imagining doing that right now

Huh?

It's a half-facetious comment. I had no thought to do the snap-vote-reaction-test thing, and when you made that comment I thought about the experience of doing it. And it sounded SUPER boring. I can only imagine how bored you are when I do that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:44 pm Jay. Darth Marmot. Can we kill him please?

I've no reason at present to refuse this request.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:50 pm The votes don't count right now eh?

They count. Thanks for answering my questions. I will consider what you've said.

I'd appreciate others' perspectives on Bo.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:49 pm He refuses to townread me so I'm receptive

Do something town-like.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:56 pm A few things have thrown me off from the beginning but his current vote for Marmot is something that inclines me to think that way as well. I also just don't think his iso is carrying the proper tone and I'm wondering if his read on sloonei was developed improperly. He also also seems hesistant to say things that I wouldn't usually think he'd be hesitant to say. I did like the post he made where he talked about sloonei/jay mutual TRs and how seriously they're taken or something though idk

this is probably just the usual day 1 jay tinfoil but that's where I'm at

Hesitant to say what things

What about the Sloonei read development

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:00 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:57 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:49 pm He refuses to townread me so I'm receptive

Do something town-like.

I've been ridiculously townie so far

No

The best thing I can say for you, Nanook, is that it’s a familiar feeling being in this place with you. It’s happened over and over in games where I have no idea what to do with you, and you take fucking forever to see my own “ridiculously townie” behaviors for what they are.

And I think those have ended up town/town in the past. I don’t recall an exception off-hand.

Reminder to self to directly compare this KZA with Fallout 2 KZA

Can a guy get a read on BoKnows

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:07 pm I don't read you until d3 or d4 cause you usually self resolve

I think I've largely been correct in my reads of you, haven't kept track

Lock me town and maybe I'll resolve myself faster.

AL_sama wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:20 pm @tutuu is it just me seeing things or you're indeed kinda acting pumped up??

AL_sama wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:25 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:15 pm

AL_sama wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:20 pm @tutuu is it just me seeing things or you're indeed kinda acting pumped up??

Could you tell me where you were going with this question?

well I've never seen her this pumped before so it felt a bit weird to me

kinda like she is putting in an act of sort

If AL thought tutuu was Poison, these comments can be viewed through that lens. I tend to view Poison as a bubbly and energetic poster, albeit one who sometimes falls off the activity grid. So I'm iffy on the observation for what it is. Then even if it's accepted it's rather meh in a similar fashion to the gripes I raised earlier on Bo's suspicion of tutuu (if that was actually suspicion?)

I just opened ted's ISO thinking I might have some gripes, but the posts look pretty decent to me. There's a degree of nuance in his views of JPIC that makes it harder to view as something like TMI. It could be mafia/mafia, but I don't care about reads like that at all right now.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:34 pmWhat'd I miss?

Numerous micro-interactions between various pairs and trios of players that could not be effectively summarized without writing a novel. You might be well advised to try catching up with ISOs instead of forcing yourself through the thread. If you want to do that though, you do you.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:38 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:34 pm I just opened ted's ISO thinking I might have some gripes, but the posts look pretty decent to me. There's a degree of nuance in his views of JPIC that makes it harder to view as something like TMI. It could be mafia/mafia, but I don't care about reads like that at all right now.

Who's ted and why do you think you were on to something?

tedxtr

"on to something" isn't quite it. He just vaguely filled a "this is a slot that can be mafia" space in my mental construction of the game state, which is why I elected to review his posts more closely.

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:20 am Sloonei Falcon SPF TSP JJJ town enough

Esooa meh

Tutuu probably scummiest player because I OMGUS a lot

Could you please expand on the non-tutuu reads here?

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:46 pm Why are you voting me and why do you have 100+ posts already?

I am voting you for an absence of civilian indicators. I don't expect you to "respond" to that at this point. If you look over those ISOs you mentioned and say your piece, that'll be a good start for your sake and mine.

I have over 100 posts because I am an unfortunate human being.

JJJJPILCKZATSPFS

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:53 pm what's multiball?

Multiple mafia teams. Probably a meaningless conversation until some actual evidence arrives to suggest it's to be taken seriously.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:58 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:56 pm A few things have thrown me off from the beginning but his current vote for Marmot is something that inclines me to think that way as well. I also just don't think his iso is carrying the proper tone and I'm wondering if his read on sloonei was developed improperly. He also also seems hesistant to say things that I wouldn't usually think he'd be hesitant to say. I did like the post he made where he talked about sloonei/jay mutual TRs and how seriously they're taken or something though idk

this is probably just the usual day 1 jay tinfoil but that's where I'm at

Hesitant to say what things

What about the Sloonei read development

@TonyStarkPrime

I'd like to determine an ideal POE pool target size. 22 players presents some awkward alignment ratios, so it's difficult to project. For now I am ignoring talk of multiple mafia teams and operating under the assumption there is only one. If so, I see three arrangements that could be reasonably plausible:

a) 16:4:1:1
b) 16:5:1
c) 17:5

The correct answer, if it's any of those, is dependent upon role strength. I have no idea. I think a safe starting point would be to work with (b) -- I'd expect at least one third party faction, and most hosts seem to favor ratios closer to 3:1 than to 4:1, for better or for worse. So on that basis:

5 mafia, 17 non-mafia

In a world with normal killing pace and a non-hostile independent, that'd set up 5 mischops allowable before MiCho/ChoLo. That would demand a POE pool of 10 (5 mafia + 5 mischops). I'm going to reduce that to 9 immediately in anticipation of at least some non-standard night phase killing power.

So my efforts are to get to a comfortable POE pool of 9, or at least as close as I can. That will be an ambitious undertaking, because it requires removing 12 not-JJJs from the mafia pool. I probably won't be able to manage that confidently, but the effort should still be a net positive if it can be reasonably attempted.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:07 pm I don't think sloonei has been town enough for your day zero "sloonei's town folks" style post which I think you walked back maybe

I didn't walk it back, though I did qualify it as being of a Day 0 caliber. He's a town read.

Other people are generally terrible at reading Sloonei or even understanding on a basic level what he tries to accomplish, so I tend to see it as my responsibility to keep that under control while I am alive if I read him accordingly. I've started to get similar treatment in recent memory, and he has taken to treating me the same way. It's a symbiosis. Ew.

My initial effort to put together a POE pool of 9 players:


POE pool
KZA
Long Con
Dom
Marmot
Tony
JPIC
Michelle
BoKnows
Al_Sama

I spoilered the town tiers, because I hate re-posting my obnoxious lists over and over. I did add one tier and moved some names around in there though, so have a click. Some players in the POE pool I have even had moments of positivity for like KZA and LC. Those moments are fleeting in the grand scheme of the game state though, so they edge into the pile. I'm likely to be wrong about at least one town-inclined read, perhaps more, and I am torn overall on a number of slots. So it's quite grain of salt still.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:07 pmI answered this

Also no you didn't

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:37 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:21 pm This game already feels like a civilian win. Strut your stuff town gang and we can climb the 2021 leaderboard in no time. Just do your thing, because you've been blessed with a state of total solving comfort.

JJJ trying to make this game look easy on page 2. I dislike.

Nothing comes easy, dear rodent, but it's nice to feel like we're going about things the right way. When I like the atmosphere of a game, I will make it known and hope that it is sustained. I think we're doing well. If there's any skill I trust myself with the most in the game of Mafia, it's identifying when a game thread is going well for the civilian faction and when it is not -- and in steering it true when needed.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:38 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:36 pm [VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

Reasoning? Is it because he didn't answer your question?

It's a bit of a snap vote after considering a few things:

~ He has a bunch of posts, but I don't really understand his hunt -- it almost seems randomized at points
~ His suspicion of me is rather cliche, like it was squeezed through a JJJ Tinfoil shaped Play Dough machine
~ He told me he answered a question when, in his posts, I see nothing remotely resembling an answer

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:42 pm also jay has never in his life omgused me as town and he has as mafia sample size = like 2

"omgus" is such a dumb concept and it should disappear from Mafia vocabulary

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:41 pm

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:38 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:36 pm [VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

Reasoning? Is it because he didn't answer your question?

It's a bit of a snap vote after considering a few things:

~ He has a bunch of posts, but I don't really understand his hunt -- it almost seems randomized at points
~ His suspicion of me is rather cliche, like it was squeezed through a JJJ Tinfoil shaped Play Dough machine
~ He told me he answered a question when, in his posts, I see nothing remotely resembling an answer

What's his suspicion of you?

Click here and judge for yourself

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:42 pm also jay has never in his life omgused me as town and he has as mafia sample size = like 2

"omgus" is such a dumb concept and it should disappear from Mafia vocabulary

there's the jay we know and love

what have I hesitated to say

Friendly request from Jay that everyone ensure you vote in the poll when you call your vote in the thread, and that you call your vote in the thread when you vote in the poll. They were out of alignment a number of times in Fallout 2 for various folks and it made my eyeballs tweak hard.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:43 pm my most hot take right now is that i find boknows mildly villagery

I like his tone more nowadays. Do you take it farther than tone?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:46 pm Town: JJJ, MacDougall, Nanook, Oddmerta, Sloonei, Strawhenge, falcon45ca

It'd feel like a major victory for me to get sNookerdoodle into the top town pile. What sold you?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:49 pm Hesistate is perhaps bad word choice. I think you've been reticent more than I recall. Your views on tutuu (and your interaction on the subject with bo) and marmot seem weird

What are your own views on tutuu and Marmot? What were they when you initially stated your suspicion of me?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:54 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:53 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:49 pm Hesistate is perhaps bad word choice. I think you've been reticent more than I recall. Your views on tutuu (and your interaction on the subject with bo) and marmot seem weird

What are your own views on tutuu and Marmot? What were they when you initially stated your suspicion of me?

I had no read on marmot and thought it was weird that you picked up on (nanook?s) suspicion. I have a light TR on tutuu and did at that time as well, same as you.

Nanook had nothing to do with it. I'm not sure he had that suspicion. You might mean Mac -- if so, that's just a shared suspect, not "picking up on" anything. What's weird about my tutuu read if we share it?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:57 pm actual read: some of your posts this game have given me the impression that you're doing a sloonei impersonation

Stuff like this is what concerns me. I don't have to do a Sloonei "impression". There's a reason he and I are memed together so often. It's been this way as long as you've been here.

Today's dumb read: the mild credit I can award to tedxtr feels like the stuff Wrong Jay says sometimes.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:03 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:59 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:57 pm actual read: some of your posts this game have given me the impression that you're doing a sloonei impersonation

Stuff like this is what concerns me. I don't have to do a Sloonei "impression". There's a reason he and I are memed together so often. It's been this way as long as you've been here.

you are not the same person

You're right that I am not Jay, but he and I still share enough similarities that players routinely confuse me for being him.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:05 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:50 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:46 pm Town: JJJ, MacDougall, Nanook, Oddmerta, Sloonei, Strawhenge, falcon45ca

It'd feel like a major victory for me to get sNookerdoodle into the top town pile. What sold you?

His posts seem completely devoid of agenda. When he's scum he tries to push people into thinking a certain way. He can get stubborn about pet reads when he's town and play entirely around them, and it's very easy to mimic that in order to influence the game thread when he is scum. He hasn't shown any interest in that here. I also think a dismissive/patronizing insistence that he's ridiculous obvtell and not getting why anyone would think otherwise is a mild towntell for him. It's too easily faked to rely on with any degree of certainty, but it's still something I think he does slightly more as town than scum, so it's the cherry on top my overall read of him. Just really good and relaxed vibes in general.

Cool beans. I don't think I read him well, so I can roll with it for now. I remember spectating GOC when folks were super suspicious of him, and to me he looked the same as ever.

@staypositivefriend how d'ya think you'll wield your vote once you decide not to chop yourself?

This dialogue between SPF and Alison reminds me of some similar exchanges between SPF and Sloonei in Fallout 2. They seemed to harbor at least some mutual suspicions, but their communication tended to be low in overt animosity -- instead they each stated their highly nuanced and specific causes for suspicion, and along the way they both seemed to acknowledge that the intended communication didn't seem to be getting through. As a host in that game I got the impression that those two kinda figured one another to be civilians, but just wanted to really do their due diligence in a thorough discussion before allowing themselves to get there. Eventually they truced it out and ended up being town/town (or something like that in my weird game). I kinda get the same impression here with SPF/Alison, like there are mutual town reads struggling to spring out through a barrier of unease.

This is an extremely specific comparison, so it may mean little or nothing. Thought I'd share anyway.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:27 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:26 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:24 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:16 pm @staypositivefriend how d'ya think you'll wield your vote once you decide not to chop yourself?

my vote would probably land on aL_sama, marmot, or ted right now. i honestly don't have a single name that i can point to as definitely being scum right now though - i moreso have the game divided between "probably town" and "probably not town"

I also had a salad for dinner tonight.

my number one takeaway from this game so far is that i don't understand what "salad" means :P

"I would vote A, B, or C" is close to the prototype for the player salad tell. It's suggestive of keeping one's options wide open when not comfortable committing to suspicions. What's holding you back from placing one of those votes right now?

Might swap Bo with ted in my POE of 9

Cool thanks SPF. I'm gonna leave you be for a bit and let you hunt.