The Syndicate

mmmmmmmmlets fiddler-go!

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:45 am When the fiddler gets to the roof, does the game end? Who is the fiddler?

the fiddler is a metaphor for survival in uncertain times times

the play is not even about violinists, or roof construction. that was a disappointment for me in highschool since those were two major interests for me

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:46 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:53 am

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:45 am When the fiddler gets to the roof, does the game end? Who is the fiddler?

the fiddler is a metaphor for survival in uncertain times times

the play is not even about violinists, or roof construction. that was a disappointment for me in highschool since those were two major interests for me

Those uncertain times times are harder than good times times. How does that metaphor work - is it because being a fiddler isn't stable employment?

don't blame me, blame the website I copied and paraphrased it from

I always figured it was cus like.... you see a fiddler on the roof? he's having the time of his life, maybe he's playing wonderwall or something, maybe everyone's watching and clapping? but like any minute it could start raining or maybe a bird poops on the fiddler and suddenly the fiddler just slips off the roof and just fucking dies I guess?

like being on a roof is already dangerous but adding on fiddle playing which requires a good amount of arm wiggling adds a new layer of danger. anything could happen

DFaraday wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:21 am The metaphor is explained in the narration:

"But in our little village of Anatevka, you might say every one of us is a fiddler on the roof, trying to scratch out a pleasant, simple tune without breaking his neck."

hell yeah. my sister was a drama kid. don't ever question my fiddler knowledge, I've seen this play 6 times B)

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

I'm afraid that is irrelevant. I know your tell and you have revealed yourself. I am sorry to wreck your game so quickly, but it's just how this works.

that's actually 100% false? first of all, I am a kind and hard-working citizen of Anetevka, so that part's wrong

second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

i don't recognize any parallel

i actually kinda assumed you were lying for standard day zero jay-prod purposes?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

I... don't agree. Civvie btsc can be an incredibly powerful tool when both players are active, and to enact your plan would mean purposefully not using a doctor, which comes with it's own problems. the matchmakers results should already be helpful so long as that player takes their results with a grain of salt and considers contextual information. it's not worth losing two powerful resources to increase the power of one.

I really don't think we're going to be starved for information in this game anyways, out of the gate we have a btsc cop, a role cop, a role blocker, and a doctor who can gain btsc with 1 of 3 different civ roles, one of which is the previously mentioned role cop, we also have a soapbox user and a mayor.

the number of roles we have that can stimulate the information economy seems pretty good.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm I really don't think we're going to be starved for information in this game anyways, out of the gate we have a btsc cop, a role cop, a role blocker, and a doctor who can gain btsc with 1 of 3 different civ roles, one of which is the previously mentioned role cop, we also have a soapbox user and a mayor.

the number of roles we have that can stimulate the information economy seems pretty good.

Did I hear someone say, "information?"

This is the *literal* mafia context definition of information this time, Professor Gnosis. :-p

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:29 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

So you recognize the parallel then?

boom rekt

I really don't recognise the parallel. I don't even know for sure if there is one without looking. In this game I've comfortably talked about musicals with people I already know, and in that game (I think?) I spent the first several of my posts trying to get to know the players on that site. I'm like 60% sure Jay is just making things up to prod for reactions but if not then he's wrong and his basis is flawed. If there really is a parallel Jay sees then it's 100% just a coincidence and not caused by alignment-bias.

Aardvarks Bark wrote:Alright let's goooooo.

Everyone please do me a solid favor and describe yourselves in terms of playstyle in whatever level of detail you feel is necessary. It's important.

It's nice to meet you all.

was it "let's go"? I've been trying to make it a thing lately. as like a fun tradition of sorts I guess.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:04 pm mmmmmlets go

I opened with "let's go" in vocaroo as well, and a few other games I think.

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm...second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

that's what the "first of all" part of the post that you cut out said.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm that's actually 100% false? first of all, I am a kind and hard-working citizen of Anetevka, so that part's wrong

it seemed important to me to not only tell Jay that his argument was wrong but also to explain how and why the basis of his argument was also flawed.

we've never played before, I don't think.

I like analyzing game mechanics. there's some good role synergies we can use to our advantage in this game to gain the upper hand

FZ. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:17 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm I really don't think we're going to be starved for information in this game anyways, out of the gate we have a btsc cop, a role cop, a role blocker, and a doctor who can gain btsc with 1 of 3 different civ roles, one of which is the previously mentioned role cop, we also have a soapbox user and a mayor.

the number of roles we have that can stimulate the information economy seems pretty good.

Did I hear someone say, "information?"

Sorry, can you explain what you meant by that? Coming back from a long break, I'm going to be a little slow...

Epignosis and I had a huge tussle in mountain mafia when I said that one low poster lynch would give us more information than another. He took issue with the fact that I used information by the dictionary definition of the word of "things you know" rather than the literal mafia meaning of "things the host has literally told you in big bolded letters".

We had a huge debate about it and started talking about philosophy and other bullshit and it was overall pretty bad, then we eventually made up and fell in love. I think he's making a joke by referring to that.

Hey [mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] I'm telling you right now, if you get me wrongly lynched and don't reveal what you thought the tell was then I'm not going to easily forgive you for it.

If you're really just making this up then it's not a cool tactic. If you legitimately think I have a tell then sure fine whatever, everyone's wrong sometimes, but if not then you have to take responsibility for it. Promise me.

I take everything that involves me seriously.

Jay is a thread-leader. Stuff he says often ends up having impact. I'm not going to ignore it when he makes some vague claim about me, especially not if people are actually listening.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:54 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:34 pm Hey @JaggedJimmyJay I'm telling you right now, if you get me wrongly lynched and don't reveal what you thought the tell was then I'm not going to easily forgive you for it.

If you're really just making this up then it's not a cool tactic. If you legitimately think I have a tell then sure fine whatever, everyone's wrong sometimes, but if not then you have to take responsibility for it. Promise me.

Why leave out the third option?

the option where I survive has no bearing on my request. What I'm saying that if I do end up getting lynched for Jay's 'tell' then Jay has to be held accountable. He can't just say something like "oh well it didn't work this time but I'm going to keep what it was a secret in case it's a tell in the future. " and shrug it off.

If his tactic here causes me to die then I want his reasoning to be thoroughly checked into.

that would be the purpose behind checking into his shit

I think if Jay doesn't come up with a valid "tell" that made him so sure as to call me out like he did then it's definitely a bad look for him.

As things are, based on past interactions with Jay he's likely to come out and say something like "there is no tell, I was just lying to build thread discussion" or "I'm not telling you what your tell is in case I need to use it again later"

I don't think either of those are acceptable answers for this.

Jay's usual civvie MO is to scatter bricks around on day 0 and 1 in order to start building discussion and put out reads. What Jay's done here is try to throw a single large brick at me, which causes no variation in discussion at all. The only discussion happening right now is surrounding me.

The only way that tactic comes from a responsible civvie mindset is if Jay really and truly believes in whatever he thinks my tell is

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:34 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am Kyle is with the Russian Police. Discuss.

strongly disagree

I'm afraid that is irrelevant. I know your tell and you have revealed yourself. I am sorry to wreck your game so quickly, but it's just how this works.

that's actually 100% false? first of all, I am a kind and hard-working citizen of Anetevka, so that part's wrong

second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

Indignant

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

Incredulous & Indignant.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:13 pm i don't recognize any parallel

Negative

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:19 pm i actually kinda assumed you were lying for standard day zero jay-prod purposes?

Dismissive

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:42 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:29 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

one game isn't enough for real tell correlation, famous poker player sneezes the first time they roll a full house you don't just assume that they have a full house the second time they sneeze

So you recognize the parallel then?

boom rekt

I really don't recognise the parallel. I don't even know for sure if there is one without looking. In this game I've comfortably talked about musicals with people I already know, and in that game (I think?) I spent the first several of my posts trying to get to know the players on that site. I'm like 60% sure Jay is just making things up to prod for reactions but if not then he's wrong and his basis is flawed. If there really is a parallel Jay sees then it's 100% just a coincidence and not caused by alignment-bias.

Indignant

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:00 pm

Aardvarks Bark wrote:Alright let's goooooo.

Everyone please do me a solid favor and describe yourselves in terms of playstyle in whatever level of detail you feel is necessary. It's important.

It's nice to meet you all.

was it "let's go"? I've been trying to make it a thing lately. as like a fun tradition of sorts I guess.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:04 pm mmmmmlets go

I opened with "let's go" in vocaroo as well, and a few other games I think.

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

Incredulous

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:34 pm Hey @JaggedJimmyJay I'm telling you right now, if you get me wrongly lynched and don't reveal what you thought the tell was then I'm not going to easily forgive you for it.

If you're really just making this up then it's not a cool tactic. If you legitimately think I have a tell then sure fine whatever, everyone's wrong sometimes, but if not then you have to take responsibility for it. Promise me.

Defiant

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:42 pm I take everything that involves me seriously.

Jay is a thread-leader. Stuff he says often ends up having impact. I'm not going to ignore it when he makes some vague claim about me, especially not if people are actually listening.

Indignant

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:09 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:54 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:34 pm Hey @JaggedJimmyJay I'm telling you right now, if you get me wrongly lynched and don't reveal what you thought the tell was then I'm not going to easily forgive you for it.

If you're really just making this up then it's not a cool tactic. If you legitimately think I have a tell then sure fine whatever, everyone's wrong sometimes, but if not then you have to take responsibility for it. Promise me.

Why leave out the third option?

the option where I survive has no bearing on my request. What I'm saying that if I do end up getting lynched for Jay's 'tell' then Jay has to be held accountable. He can't just say something like "oh well it didn't work this time but I'm going to keep what it was a secret in case it's a tell in the future. " and shrug it off.

If his tactic here causes me to die then I want his reasoning to be thoroughly checked into.

Obtuse

unhelpful

sloonei do you have any suspects in this thread other than me? do you think allowing the thread to focus on one player is a positive choice?

I'm just tired. I don't like or respect what Jay is doing here no matter what his motive is.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:49 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:48 pm sloonei do you have any suspects in this thread other than me? do you think allowing the thread to focus on one player is a positive choice?

No.
Depends.

Who else might we discuss?

Um well since the only discussion so far has been about me I guess I'd start by looking into how players reacted to Jay's thing.

The two players who stuck out to me in their jump-on were LC and FZ

FZ. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 pm Hi, sorry for coming in late.
How's everyone doing?
I love Fiddler on the roof, but haven't seen it in years. Nice to play a game with that theme.

Kyle, have we ever played together?
I have to say, I read most posts up until the following one. Unlike JJJ, I found nothing wrong with Kyle, but then I read this post, and it felt like a frustrated baddie annoyed by what he perceives as too much civvie power, though he can't really say it, so it comes out in a different way, because, well, he can't help himself.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm I really don't think we're going to be starved for information in this game anyways, out of the gate we have a btsc cop, a role cop, a role blocker, and a doctor who can gain btsc with 1 of 3 different civ roles, one of which is the previously mentioned role cop, we also have a soapbox user and a mayor.

the number of roles we have that can stimulate the information economy seems pretty good.

FZ takes an oddly middle ground point of view before it's strictly necessary or even really sensible, then provides an additional somewhat stretchy reason to suspect me, it seems awkward and almost tacked on, like jumping on a bandwagon earlier while ensuring that there's viable reason to believe that it's FZ's idea.

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm Civvie BTSC is the most powerful thing... or at least Civvie-Civvie knowledge. Confirming Civs is one of the best things we can do to win the game.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 pm...second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

This section is sketchy, Kyle, it reads like it's written by someone with a mafia alignment. "you've never even seen me play as mafia before" implies you're mafia now, and the statement that there's "not enough to build correlation from" implies that there could be enough at some point, but if you're Civ, then the idea would be that "correlation is impossible because I'm not bad."

LC picks out the specific part of my response that supports his point despite the fact that the part he cropped out makes his point of agreement less meaningful.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:56 pmPlease tell me about the discussion that was happening in this game thread before I threw a brick at your face.

There was no discussion, and it was honestly bothering me but making an accusation, posting a weird silly science man and running away isn't the best way to achieve it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:06 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:03 pm So it was poop? And you think LC ate it?

It was poop. Kyle is a quality Mafia player and isn't likely to have some glowing beacon of a tell which shows itself in the first three posts.

you are ridiculous.

I'm still mad but at least I'm laughing now.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:21 pm Kyle, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of FZ. I think she gave a completely original reason to suspect you which was unrelated to Jay's thing.

I don't necessarily believe that original means better.

I think feeling a need to have an original but also still negative take on me seems like it could be a not good look. it's a ping at the least

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:26 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pm I'm just tired. I don't like or respect what Jay is doing here no matter what his motive is.

I don't mean to ruin your fun Kyle. Just know that earning your respect is not always the same thing as promoting a winning game thread environment.

You're always talking about winning as if it's something important. At the end of the day we're all just internet friends who play a silly children's game online and take it way too seriously.

Regardless, I get what you were doing now and since it turns out wasn't the most shitty thing possible, I'm not really mad any more.

Jay's actions so far have been NAI to me. He does this every time. He's built a pattern for himself. It stands to reason that he would also do the same thing if he was mafia trying to replicate that pattern.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:49 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm You're always talking about winning as if it's something important. At the end of the day we're all just internet friends who play a silly children's game online and take it way too seriously.

I don't let my tongue hang out and move my pieces at random when I break out the Checkers board. I like fun. I like winning too.

you shouldn't lick the checkers that's gross just use your hands

Jay do you have a read on Sloonei yet?

yeah actually

he came back and actually branched off from his large brick toss with a few smaller brick tosses, it's a different tactic

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 pmyeah actually

His question is a good one. If what I did was "what I do every time", then that means you have to know and understand a civilian motivation that doesn't require me to have really believed what I was saying.

at the time of my complaints it wasn't 'what you do every time' you threw a fake large and confident suspicion at me and then left. your usual meta is a small read "tink is good, can anyone tell me why" followed by sticking around to analyze.

it wasn't on-brand til you came back and admitted to the lie

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:14 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:13 pm he came back and actually branched off from his large brick toss with a few smaller brick tosses, it's a different tactic

But that's still "what he always does", and an hour ago you were going on about what a bad look it was for him as if it's not what he always does.

no that's wrong.

he doesn't usually use specific lies "Kyle has an obvious tell that I learned from sc2 mafia" is a specific lie that could have gotten me lynched if he didn't come back and tell the truth.

"I think tink is civ can anyone tell me why?" vague and harmless, "I think Epignosis is bad can anyone tell me why? also vague and harmless.

"I was going on about it being a bad look" is also not very accurate.

It was an emotionally charged conditional statement. If Jay continued the way he was going and let me get lynched without admitting to the lie then that would have been a strong indicator of a non-townie minded Jay. But he didn't, so it isn't.

It's logically consistent so it literally computes.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:19 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:17 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 pmyeah actually

His question is a good one. If what I did was "what I do every time", then that means you have to know and understand a civilian motivation that doesn't require me to have really believed what I was saying.

at the time of my complaints it wasn't 'what you do every time' you threw a fake large and confident suspicion at me and then left. your usual meta is a small read "tink is good, can anyone tell me why" followed by sticking around to analyze.

it wasn't on-brand til you came back and admitted to the lie

The comparison I thought you were making with "always does this" was my screaming at dunya with a tone of confidence before abruptly dropping the case. That's not the only recent example.

In fact, how is "I have a town read on Tink, can anyone tell me why" any manner of brick throw, small or large?

it was a metaphorical thrown object based on a false read, it doesn't matter what kind of building material it was. Maybe something soft like insulation?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:49 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:14 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:13 pm he came back and actually branched off from his large brick toss with a few smaller brick tosses, it's a different tactic

But that's still "what he always does", and an hour ago you were going on about what a bad look it was for him as if it's not what he always does.

no that's wrong.

he doesn't usually use specific lies "Kyle has an obvious tell that I learned from sc2 mafia" is a specific lie that could have gotten me lynched if he didn't come back and tell the truth.

"I think tink is civ can anyone tell me why?" vague and harmless, "I think Epignosis is bad can anyone tell me why? also vague and harmless.

"I was going on about it being a bad look" is also not very accurate.

It was an emotionally charged conditional statement. If Jay continued the way he was going and let me get lynched without admitting to the lie then that would have been a strong indicator of a non-townie minded Jay. But he didn't, so it isn't.

It's logically consistent so it literally computes.

I disagree that his tactic in this game is in any way unusual and I never saw any reason to think he was gonna skate by without further comment on your "tell".

it's only easy for you to say that cus you weren't actually involved

getting lynched for day 1 bullshit used to be my #1 cause of death.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:20 pm getting lynched for day 1 bullshit used to be my #1 cause of death.

You described my post as "unhelpful" earlier. why?

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:24 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:20 pm getting lynched for day 1 bullshit used to be my #1 cause of death.

You described my post as "unhelpful" earlier. why?

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

I think so. I'd not yet commented on it and had something to say, so I said it. why should we have moved away from the conversation about you so quickly?

hmm no that's not the issue here.

The Sloonei-meta and Jay-meta that I'm used to is that you both tend to open up discussion early on with pokes and prods at players who haven't been involved. To get things moving forward and outward..

Do you feel like you've personally accomplished that in this game or do I have a wrong impression of your meta?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 pm Do you scum read me?

I don't quite scum read you but I don't town read you yet either.

You haven't done the things I expect town Sloonei to do yet which is a cause for concern.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:57 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 pm Do you scum read me?

I don't quite scum read you but I don't town read you yet either.

You haven't done the things I expect town Sloonei to do yet which is a cause for concern.

I'm withholding judgement cus like you said, if something that's already being discussed pings you, why not comment on it? so doubling down on Jay's thing instead of starting your own isn't that unusual. In general you're not a player who I would consider to be a follower.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:03 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:57 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:48 pm Do you scum read me?

I don't quite scum read you but I don't town read you yet either.

You haven't done the things I expect town Sloonei to do yet which is a cause for concern.

what things should town sloonei be doing?
how do you read Epi's behavior?

stirring things up and making discussions happen. you're not the type of player to sit back and comment on other people's thoughts.

Epi.... neutral. I see where he's coming from, I make reading you and Jay early a priority in most games we're in. Finding out whether the thread is based on a good foundation is an important first step. I think "hang them" is a bit of an extreme though.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:14 pmI don't think it's accurate to say I was following Jay. I generated my own read based on your reactions to things. I also don't mind following a lead if I think it's a good one.

that's definitely false... the posts you commented on wouldn't have even existed if it weren't for jay. it's no different from speedchuck, Nutella, LC, or FZ commenting on the same things you did. It wasn't new content nor was it a unique way to look at old content.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:17 pmI wanted to hang back on Day 0 after the explosion I helped create in Mortal Kombat. I'm currently failing at that task.

understandable

If you see where he's coming from, why is he a null read?

a player relaying a relatable thought process doesn't make them civ.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 pmAnyone responding to anything is new content. Yeah I was responding to content that was generated by somebody else, but the single-word thoughts I was putting into the thread were a new way of looking at things because, as far as I can tell, no one else had brought up any of the angles I was looking at previously. This is a bogus semantic argument and I'm not sure why you're pursuing it.

saying the same things that everyone else is already saying but with fewer words isn't creating new content nor is it really even a new angle. The only new content is "hey you know that thing that a lot of other people think? well Sloonei thinks it too" this is getting away from the original point.

You haven't created as many unique lines of unique inquiry in this game as I'm used to seeing. You've explained why that might be. That has to be the conclusion to this topic because I can't actually tell if that will continue to be true unless I shut up and let you hunt

No, but I asked you about him and you gave a favorable description but a null read. I wanted to note it and see if there was more to be mined there.

"i can see where he's coming from" is neutral in that it's generally positive but it's also an easy thing to fake or used to push a bad agenda.

i can see where ecoterrorists are coming from too but that doesn't mean I condone their actions

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:11 am JaggedJimmyJay remains my #1 suspect. He wasn't trying to learn anything about Kyle or from other people. He was just trying to look like he was.

3J, you're bad at pretending.

I'm interested in an elaboration on this. Are there examples of Jay using his standard day 0 maneuver in a game where Jay was mafia? Did he do this in phenon or pirate?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:29 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:17 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 pmAnyone responding to anything is new content. Yeah I was responding to content that was generated by somebody else, but the single-word thoughts I was putting into the thread were a new way of looking at things because, as far as I can tell, no one else had brought up any of the angles I was looking at previously. This is a bogus semantic argument and I'm not sure why you're pursuing it.

saying the same things that everyone else is already saying but with fewer words isn't creating new content nor is it really even a new angle. The only new content is "hey you know that thing that a lot of other people think? well Sloonei thinks it too" this is getting away from the original point.

I continue to not like the way you are sweeping all of the suspicion against you under the same rug as if none of it is worth addressing. Could you point to where the points I made had been brought up prior to my post?

feel free to suspect me, sloonei. i'm not sweeping your suspicion under a rug. I have addressed most of the points made against me....I...think?

you wrote "indignant" "incredulous" "dismissive" under quotes of every post I made. the sentiment of your post boils down to "Kyle is reacting negatively to being suspected by Jay, here are the specific ways that Kyle reacts negatively"

speedchuck said the exact same thing in paragraph form earlier on, but it's also just kind of an obvious point to make in general.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 amMy scum read on Kyle is contingent on him being made genuinely uncomfortable bu Jay's fake scumtell on him.

Please explain this.

Are you saying that I should have somehow known whether Jay was being real or not based on what my alignment is?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:25 am

Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:14 am

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 amMy scum read on Kyle is contingent on him being made genuinely uncomfortable bu Jay's fake scumtell on him.

Please explain this.

Are you saying that I should have somehow known whether Jay was being real or not based on what my alignment is?

If you're both scum, you wouldn't have reacted the way you did.

I'm only asking about the part you said in the quote there, please forget about Jay for a minute. what do you think my reaction to Jay's gambit thing would be as a mafia? as a civ? why would they be different reactions?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:59 am

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am Yeah I don't trust your calls to meta. It bothers me more that you said this than the rest of your play this game.

I don't care what bothers you. I won Phenon: Origins because the civilians were generally disengaged and did not try.

You won phenon because you took over as town leader, which you did by purposefully emulating your civvie style. Low activity allowed it to happen, but it wasn't the sole cause.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:51 am Number of relevant posts in this thread before I pooped: 0

Number of relevant posts in this thread after I pooped: 150+

You're welcome.

why this?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:47 am Non-fiction dialogue:

Anyone who really believes I would prefer to whip this thread into a frenzy for appearances than just let it snail along with nothing but theme-inspired chatter has no clue about my mafia-aligned play. No clue.

because a mafia jay would be totally relaxed just letting the thread stay dead quiet for any length of time. A maf jay wouldn't worry about emulating a civ Jay's well known meta at all. isn't that a little bit of a flawed statement?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:51 amAll I meant was that your reaction is not indicative of a partnership with Jay because you appeared genuinely unnerved by it. But, since you asked, I think a town kyle would have reacted more calmly and understood Jay's tactic to just be a conversation starter and not a bogus smear campaign directed at kyle to get kyle lynched on Day 1.

okay but here's the thing? a town Kyle wouldn't and a town Kyle didn't.

a town Kyle and a hypothetical mafia Kyle share the same knowledge so why would a hypothetical mafia Kyle be less likely to understand Jay's intentions than a civ Kyle

a town Kyle reacted with paranoia because a town Kyle thought that Jay might have bad or shady intentions with his thing.

a mafia Kyle would have had contextual knowledge of Jay's alignment and would be able to figure out his intentions easier.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 amThe proposed strategy of intentionally blowing this thread up just to look like civilian Jay is crap, because I am not going to earn sufficient credit for doing so to offset the disadvantage I place myself and my teammates in by igniting the game thread

but my problem with it is the implication that there is ever any risk associated with your day 0 meta at all, regardless of alignment.

the disadvantage to yourself is negligible because if you do the same risky thing every game no one is going to call you out on it, cus it's familiar.

and... the disadvantage to the mafia is also questionable. discussion has to start sometime, and it has to start somewhere. Civ Jay picks anyone, it doesn't matter who. Conversation spreads like cracks in the ice and like yes this is definitely a disadvantage for the mafia. But... mafia Jay picks a random player that's not on their team, draws attention to them and away from his teammates, this is a completely free advantage for the mafia since Jay won't draw attention for it cus he's just doing what he always does.