The Syndicate

Hey everyone, I haven't had time to get remotely caught up yet, so just going with [VOTE: no lynch] aubergine for today. Will get caught up this evening and write some thoughts up tomorrow some time hopefully.

Creature wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:53 pm
Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:24 pm
vanity. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:23 pm it should go without saying that boo/creature/dfaraday/elephant will be getting heat today anyways
they are gonna be my first ISO's after dinner tonight also i think boo was honestly jsut not caught up after subbing in don't know about the others
On a new perspective, I think Spiny Creature had the potential to be scum

Care to explain?

I didn't get through everything, but am reasonably up-to-date now all the same. I just skipped D0 and went from the lynch forward, skimming anything that seemed like fluff and focussing on what was relevant to me, meaning Spiny's posts and interactions as one of the only two things I am clear on).

My biggest suspect within our group is Hyena (and, happily enough, in general). The drive to force a tie (s)he, sorry, don't know most of you in this game yet engaged in struck me as wrong at the time, going so far as to ask me after I put the no lynch vote down to flip it to help cause a tie.

I do have a general question for people though. Given the size of this game, I would expect 2 baddie teams, not 1. If it was discussed, I missed that, but I am interested in thoughts. Because a lot of people here seem to be drawing what seem like pretty bold civ-reads (although one of my biggest takeaways is that people are not nearly as gunshy about doing that as I am used to, so maybe that's just a style that exists now?) after the Drago lynch on people who I read as just as likely being a counter-team.

Is Creature just cursed, maybe?

Benson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:10 pm
boo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:08 pm I didn't get through everything, but am reasonably up-to-date now all the same. I just skipped D0 and went from the lynch forward, skimming anything that seemed like fluff and focussing on what was relevant to me, meaning Spiny's posts and interactions as one of the only two things I am clear on).

My biggest suspect within our group is Hyena (and, happily enough, in general). The drive to force a tie (s)he, sorry, don't know most of you in this game yet engaged in struck me as wrong at the time, going so far as to ask me after I put the no lynch vote down to flip it to help cause a tie.

I do have a general question for people though. Given the size of this game, I would expect 2 baddie teams, not 1. If it was discussed, I missed that, but I am interested in thoughts. Because a lot of people here seem to be drawing what seem like pretty bold civ-reads (although one of my biggest takeaways is that people are not nearly as gunshy about doing that as I am used to, so maybe that's just a style that exists now?) after the Drago lynch on people who I read as just as likely being a counter-team.
I am under the impression we're dealing with a standard wolf team, and a weaker third party.

What is a standard wolf team to you, though?

I haven't played a game at all in... a year? I dunno, it's been a while. And that was just one or two with a year+ before that being when I was last really active. To me, the standard set up is 2 different mafia teams, in a game of 30 probably 4 players each, 5 if there's some strong independents that are more civ-aligned by design.

I'm assuming based on your response though, you're used to a different dynamic? How large would a standard wolf team be in a setup you're used to?

Creature wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:15 pm The day I decide to contribute I am lynched, so why should I even keep trying?

The day just started, you have 1 vote. You haven't been lynched.

Personally, the only reason I'd consider voting for you is your behaviour during this phase so far.

If you're genuinely trying to contribute, perhaps it would be helpful to do so in a way other people might be able to comprehend?

Nothing Hyena came in with earlier really addressed my read on them or referenced what LA said, so I'm going with [VOTE: Hyena] aubergine for the moment. I want to look over LA though, the NK analysis didn't feel right to me, will do that this evening.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:33 pm Not sure what you're referring to exactly about hyena though @boo could you clarify?

Huh, apparently it wasn't you who said what I remember... was it JC (yes, I'm full of names only a handful of people will actually get, but I'm stuck using them all the same. change is bad.

Benson wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:11 pm I thought Hyena had legitimate reasons for driving a close lynch near EoD but I'll let him address that before I say anything.

Oh, it was Benson not LA or JC... dunno how I got that. I guess Ben is also Lost... let's go with that.

Hyena wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:47 pm
boo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:08 pm My biggest suspect within our group is Hyena (and, happily enough, in general). The drive to force a tie (s)he, sorry, don't know most of you in this game yet engaged in struck me as wrong at the time, going so far as to ask me after I put the no lynch vote down to flip it to help cause a tie.
So, I gave an explanation earlier for why I was trying to tie the wagons as much as possible at EoD. I don't think we would've gathered much information if the wagons remained uneven before, like, the last moment. People were changing their votes between Dragomir and 112 until the very last moment, but there wouldn't have been a need to if one wagon remained greater than the other.

I saw that. I just don't buy it. How does asking me after I had just said I had no thoughts on things because I hadn't read up-to-date to try and help force a tie help give any helpful information, other than using my either doing so or not as a future reason to suspect me?

Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:58 pm Has anyone (mainly Nutella & Creature) fully substantiated what you don't like with Spiny. I struggle to find anything bad.

Me too.

juliets wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:03 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:43 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:48 pm So you guys as I'm going through these votes I see people changing votes like every 5 to 10 minutes for a period of time. I don't understand what they are doing. They are not pressure votes because there's not time for the person they voted for to even see it. In some cases others vote right after them and then they change and the other(s) follow. It seems scummy to me but a lot of the people from MU and the champs spec chat are doing it so there's got to be some point here - what is it?
I personally like to do that because I think quickly building up wagons can often yield telling responses. In my experience villagers are much less tentative and will be able to vote at their pleasure without the extra burden of trying to satisfy their wolf-agenda. Having the wagons build up so fast applies pressure and makes it a lot harder on the wolves as they have to simultaneously evaluate where and when they should vote to a) avoid future suspicion, and b) prevent their teammates from dying.
ok I see what you are saying. I've personally never played this way or with others who play this way so it is completely foreign to me (well, I'm used to one or two throwing votes out seemingly randomly but not bunches of people doing it). Normally I am very deliberate about my vote, weighing the evidence and trying to determine if it really warrants a vote. I'll try to loosen up my style to get more in the spirit.

I imagine it likely comes from having a history of playing games where votes couldn't be changed. Even once that norm changed, people tended to continue to play like it hadn't, for the most part. Whereas if you've always played where votes can be changed, it would be easier to have a mindset of moving votes frequently being a strategy that civs are able to build into gameplay to make it harder for mafia. I see the logic, although I'm not sure I can adapt to.

I'd be interested in civ win-rates between the two styles. When last I played, baddies winning more than they should be was a concern for some people in a general sense, is that still an issue here at all?

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:13 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:12 pm What is the bussing culture like on this forum? I know that's a weird question but I've noticed it can differ site to site. For example my home forum - CanucksCommunity - is VERY pro-bussing. Almost so much so that we always expect it. But conversely, MU had way more anti-bus folks in the games I played and it happened less often.
Varies from player to player. I've had wolf games where we all bus, and games where we all defend each other.

I hate it. Mostly because it has literally never worked for me. I blame DiamondDog. We bussed him hard in Rabbit's King Arthur game (I think we used a kill on him, actually? not even a proper bussing) and our team got wrecked because of it.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:15 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:12 pm [VOTE: DFaraday] aubergine
I went to ISO DFaraday after those votes. Then I didn't know what to do with the rest of my minute.

Masturbate 59 times?

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:28 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:58 pm Has anyone (mainly Nutella & Creature) fully substantiated what you don't like with Spiny. I struggle to find anything bad.
That requires me to go to the OP, select Spiny's ISO and scroll her entire ISO looking for the ideal post that would represent how I feel about her entire ISO.

God forbid people think you're in the game because you actually want to play?

Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:17 pm @boo do you have any thoughts on players in contention for today's lynch yet? Or still getting caught up?

I already voted for Hyena. At the moment, I'm satisfied leaving it there.

Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:31 pm boo, thoughts on the case against TLip (forgive me if you addressed this). Or DFaraday's entrance into this round?

I haven't. I mostly agreed with the post LC made laying out why he voted for him, but it's LC, and from what I recall he tends to give better reasons for votes when he isn't civ than when he is, so I don't think I'll be voting using his argument unless I actually get a read on him, which atm I don't.

DF is being DF. Getting a post or two each phase from him is typical. In the past, I've always been fine with lynching him for it (and often argued for it), because either he gets lynched early for it, or he skates to the end of the game after people bring it up and it largely gets ignored. If the lynch goes in his direction today, I'd be fine with that. But it's only ever my first choice when I have no actual suspicions, and I think we got enough to work with from D1 that we could get another baddie today with the information available if we're smart about it, whereas with DF, lynching him is just a random result that might (but statistically probably won't) go well, but even if it does, won't give any actual information to then use going forward.

Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:29 pm
boo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:24 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:17 pm @boo do you have any thoughts on players in contention for today's lynch yet? Or still getting caught up?
I already voted for Hyena. At the moment, I'm satisfied leaving it there.
Is the main reason because he was driving for a tie?

As I've stated, I don't think what he was doing was open-wolfing by any stretch. I fully agree with Hyena's tactic of trying to have tied wagons close to EoD. I don't think anyone literally wanted a tie; we just wanted it to be close to potentially expose some wolves once we see how players flip.

Not so much that he was driving for a tie (other people were doing that too, and it isn't enough reason to get my attention on them), and moreso how he went about trying to do it. I can see the strategy of moving things around so mafia have a harder time pinning down how to work out if they need to bus or not, but I didn't feel like that was his goal. The asking me to help draw a tie, for no particularly good reason (things were already getting busy at the time he did that, so votes were moving around enough without my being relevant to it) doesn't sit right with me. Nothing from him today has made me feel any better. He seems to be pick and choosing what to reply to pretty carefully, and I don't trust that.

I did read over LA and wound up not feeling as bad about her as I did going in after looking at things on the whole.

At some point it did bring my attention to iaafr (who I know isn't in our thread, but I think it's still worth bringing up) though, who I also then read over and I now wish I could vote for because those vote flips in the last hour and a half of D1 (from Drago to Epi to 112 to... no lynch, where he ended up) just looks reeeeeeeeally bad to me.

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:48 am One more thing and I'll shut up.

In some of the games I've played where they split up the thread, once you are back with the big group you no longer have access to the split thread. Some you do have access. Because of that I'm saving some stuff in word documents like my voting records. You might want to do the same.

Shouldn't be a problem, this is the 'real' thread, since we have the whole post history. They would have had to make a new one for the other group(s), can't copy and paste them. Unless they blow up this thread and move everyone to the other one. That'd be kinda evil though.

Huh, well vanity seems to have gone full rage-mode over having votes which is reading way more cornered baddie than upset civ to me. I didn't find the cases compelling enough to consider a vote for him, but now I'm kind of inclined to.

vanity. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:39 pm we need to turn this game around

elephant has no credibility in the village. them trying to make a case on me and push on me is asinine.

Did you miss the D1 lynch result? The only "we" that makes sense there is you're mafia...

Elephant making a case on you is Elephant playing the game. This is an absurd and insulting/rude (like several of your recent posts have been) statement.

I'm moving over to [VOTE: vanity.] aubergine

Moivng to [VOTE: DF] aubergine because I have votes again so...

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:42 pm Moving my vote to boo

[VOTE: boo] aubergine

I'm not clear on why I have yours?

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:33 pm It's tough to judge vanity without ever having played with him before. Exasperated claims to his villagery-ness don't really do a lot for me.

I don't like the look of boo's hop on to the vanity vote though, it looks opportunistic. The "Did you miss the D1 lynch result? The only "we" that makes sense there is you're mafia..." is not something that feels like honest scumhunting either.

Looks like the TL wagon isn't really taking off, so I'll check out the boo one instead. [VOTE: spiny boo] aubergine

That was one in a series of responses I made to him, so I think you're missing a fair bit of context there.

I'm also not sure you're in a position to call me opportunistic and then say "so I'll check out [something else, opportunistically]" :P

Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:34 pm [VOTE: boo] aubergine

Like JC, I'm not clear on why I drew your vote?

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:57 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:44 pm
juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:42 pm Moving my vote to boo

[VOTE: boo] aubergine
I'm not clear on why I have yours?
I have been wrestling with Spiny's behavior as it relates to the questions that Hyena was asking her and for now I'm agreeing with nutella that spiny focused on the Pawn town read issue but didn't focus well on Hyena's other points. What I don't like about my vote is that it has everything to do with Spiny and not you - I would prefer that not be the case. I am by no means sure that this is where I will end up.

Are you still in favor of a DFaraday vote?

I'd prefer a policy-lynch on him that I have no other opinion on, than a lynch on me that I know hurts civs, yes.

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:00 pm Oops @boo you just voted DF so of course you're still in favor. The better question is why DF?

Math, mostly.

Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:53 pm Pick the wolf in each pair (or say "no wolf/multiple wolves" if you want)

Elephant/Juliets
Boo/Long Con
Dfaraday/TLib
vanity/hyena (I'm a bit doubtful there'd be a wolf here, but whatever)
creature/nutella/ya boy benson

I have reason to think the first few groups have a wolf in each pair. The latter groups are more or less random.

I don't like these as a matter of principle, and feel no differently here. So this is me acknowledging you did this, and saying no to it.

Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:30 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:03 am
juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:48 am One more thing and I'll shut up.

In some of the games I've played where they split up the thread, once you are back with the big group you no longer have access to the split thread. Some you do have access. Because of that I'm saving some stuff in word documents like my voting records. You might want to do the same.
Shouldn't be a problem, this is the 'real' thread, since we have the whole post history. They would have had to make a new one for the other group(s), can't copy and paste them. Unless they blow up this thread and move everyone to the other one. That'd be kinda evil though.
Let's talk about this. Is it TMI? Or is it a reasonable inference?

Does TMI mean too much information when people are using it? I've seen it thrown out a lot this game, but in most contexts it only made a bit (if any) sense for that to be how people were using it.

Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:33 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:31 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:30 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:03 am
juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:48 am One more thing and I'll shut up.

In some of the games I've played where they split up the thread, once you are back with the big group you no longer have access to the split thread. Some you do have access. Because of that I'm saving some stuff in word documents like my voting records. You might want to do the same.
Shouldn't be a problem, this is the 'real' thread, since we have the whole post history. They would have had to make a new one for the other group(s), can't copy and paste them. Unless they blow up this thread and move everyone to the other one. That'd be kinda evil though.
Let's talk about this. Is it TMI? Or is it a reasonable inference?
Does TMI mean too much information when people are using it? I've seen it thrown out a lot this game, but in most contexts it only made a bit (if any) sense for that to be how people were using it.
Yes. Too much information meaning you may be a wolf that knows certain details a villager wouldn't.

Gotcha.

It's literally just based on how posting works on forums like these. Duplicating a thread isn't possible. It'd be a security problem.

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:45 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:47 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:33 pm It's tough to judge vanity without ever having played with him before. Exasperated claims to his villagery-ness don't really do a lot for me.

I don't like the look of boo's hop on to the vanity vote though, it looks opportunistic. The "Did you miss the D1 lynch result? The only "we" that makes sense there is you're mafia..." is not something that feels like honest scumhunting either.

Looks like the TL wagon isn't really taking off, so I'll check out the boo one instead. [VOTE: spiny boo] aubergine
That was one in a series of responses I made to him, so I think you're missing a fair bit of context there.

I'm also not sure you're in a position to call me opportunistic and then say "so I'll check out [something else, opportunistically]" :P
Fair enough, but I already had some suspicion of your predecessor, so it wasn't that difficult to cast this vote.

Yea, I'm aware. But that I can't really do much about, so

And I hereby move that the combined name, rather than Spiny boo, should be Spoony, cause that's just fucking adorable.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:52 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:40 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:33 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:31 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:30 pm
boo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:03 am
juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:48 am One more thing and I'll shut up.

In some of the games I've played where they split up the thread, once you are back with the big group you no longer have access to the split thread. Some you do have access. Because of that I'm saving some stuff in word documents like my voting records. You might want to do the same.
Shouldn't be a problem, this is the 'real' thread, since we have the whole post history. They would have had to make a new one for the other group(s), can't copy and paste them. Unless they blow up this thread and move everyone to the other one. That'd be kinda evil though.
Let's talk about this. Is it TMI? Or is it a reasonable inference?
Does TMI mean too much information when people are using it? I've seen it thrown out a lot this game, but in most contexts it only made a bit (if any) sense for that to be how people were using it.
Yes. Too much information meaning you may be a wolf that knows certain details a villager wouldn't.
Gotcha.

It's literally just based on how posting works on forums like these. Duplicating a thread isn't possible. It'd be a security problem.
I find it unlikely that the hosts would deny others access to the thread history, so I assumed they figured out some way to duplicate it. Surely that's possible.

They may have provided ISOs, but no, actual duplication isn't. Every post is made by an account with a ton of background info, right? In order to duplicate a thread of all of that, you'd be pulling all that information again but changing things (the timestamps wouldn't be legit, for the most clear example). Short of an admin sock-puppeting every user and every post (which is possible but would be frowned upon, and without a script would take an unreasonable amount of time to accomplish), a proper duplication couldn't be made in a public forum.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:05 pm I don't see how it couldn't just be a saved record of how the thread was at the time. I guess we have different understandings of how it could or could not work but I still strongly think the others must have some way to see it.

Oh, I don't doubt they have ISOs available up until the end of D1. But it would still have to be something JJJ and sloonei posted in the new thread. But that isn't the same as duplicating a thread. ISOs are just post history neatly arranged by thread (a relatively simple automatic search filter compiling it). Duplicating a whole thread would essentially require hacking every user account that posted in the thread to re-post their post (as an admin user, then change the user that is shown to have made the post as the original user). There's no way something like that would be a built in feature on a public forum.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:21 pm Idk man, I'm not an expert though I do have access to the admin control panel so maybe I could figure out if it's possible but I don't want to accidentally see anything I'm not supposed to see and it doesn't seem that important to our gameplay so I won't. But I know admins have been able to do other weird things with thread permissions for games in the past.

Would depend on how much of ACP you have access to. Hosts get (or used to, anyways) some limited access (can see reports on users, some limited IP information, control over whatever is relevant to the host/mod group) that I imagine is similar access all mod-type user accounts have, but would be a lot less (or should be, if permissions aren't being horribly mismanaged) than admins. And (if memory serves) LT did a lot of the design of TS and did it the same way she did RM, so I would expect it was done well, cause she knows her shit.

Benson wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:43 pm boo isn't being very solvey though. He's just there.

I've been plenty 'solvey', but it all got brushed aside as misreads from not being familiar with most of the people in our groups mafia culture. I don't agree with it, but when you take 4 votes and 3 of them are based on 'you replaced someone I kinda maybe sorta suspected', pushing for lynching people who aren't one of the 4 voters just seems like a good way of helping dig your own grave.

So, I am essentially forced to try and get a policy lynch since that's where other votes are, so I can continue for another day and hopefully be able to actually make the pushes I'm interested in.

[mention]Hyena[/mention], what's your read on TLib?

juliets wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:11 pm So Elephant and Faraday did not vote for Drago. Was there someone else?

I did not.

Hyena wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:14 pm @boo What's your read on Elephant?

I don't have one I'm satisfied with. I've gone back and forth a few times on a civ read/mafia read on him, but have mostly just had him as a ? which, at the moment, is where I'm at with him

vanity. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:26 pm juliets' interactions with me are either super villagery or super pocketing. there's no middleground. i'll figure it out tomorrow if i have to.

She's one of the better pocketers, so good luck figuring that one out.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:30 pm
boo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:00 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:28 pm
Benson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:58 pm Has anyone (mainly Nutella & Creature) fully substantiated what you don't like with Spiny. I struggle to find anything bad.
That requires me to go to the OP, select Spiny's ISO and scroll her entire ISO looking for the ideal post that would represent how I feel about her entire ISO.
God forbid people think you're in the game because you actually want to play?
k, I'm gonna ignore Spiny

Why should I townread you (disregarding Spiny)?

I don't believe in townreads. Letting yourself assume someone is good without actually entirely knowing it for a fact is for people comfortable with having blindspots. I suspect everyone. Just not equally.

[VOTE: TLib] aubergine for the moment then.

Hyena wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:43 pm Actually, you know what? Just for that vote?
[VOTE: Boo] aubergine

[VOTE: DF] aubergine

Trustworthy Liberal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:51 pm Sorry zoned out in a civ 5 game forgot this was open in the background.

currently would be voting boo for self pres but would prefore the DFaraday lynch in comparison

DF is my preference over you so you're a minute behind :P

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