The Syndicate

juliets' post drew to my attention the fact that the two flipped townies were both on the Nanook wagon (and the other two were myself and LC who I believe is town so imo it was a pure wagon). That makes me wonder even more if the sig/mr wagons were pushed by scum to save nanook. Fits with my Hyena case as well.

Wtf do you mean "otherwise why bother" literally what the fuck game are you playing where that's a thing

I get your mafia philosophy isn't always the same as other people's bit wtf is that

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:03 pm Like regardless of my alignment, I’m going to talk to people as if they’re town. Otherwise what’s the point of talking to them at all. SRing me for that is almost as bad as “nanook can’t SR anyone!” which is also demonstrably, patently false.

So yeah, do better, regardless of your alignment.

You've literally said the same two sentences three times now. I don't understand them. Why the fuck would you not engage people you suspect? You're doing it right now, no? Or not, because you don't actually suspect me.

"what's the point of talking to someone you think is mafia" is the bizarrest take I've ever seen in mafia lmfao

juliets wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:04 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:30 pm Juliets and DDL have similar problems. They haven't stood out or made any impact. I don't like that.

The more I think about it the worse I feel about juliets. She has shown the bare bones of her meta without any of the meat. Her most content-ful post was a lengthy justification of her sig vote after sig had flipped. Not great.
Is this what you are talking about? I can't think of a game where I've made an impact Day 1. I acknowledge that you feel bad about me because of that. My justification for my sig vote after he flipped was because speedchuck requested we ALL talk about why we voted for the person we did. I don't know why you would see that as a bad thing.

It was an overly elaborate justification, and the only content you've produced. I get that it was answering a question, but one would think you could produce content that thorough about living players at some point.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm Like Jesus fuck, there’s no point talking to someone as if they’re mafia. You’re not gonna convince mafia you’re right, and if they’re town you just make the game shitty and unfun for them.

Interactions in thread are not only there for the direct participants. I interact with people I suspect to show other people why they're suspicious. This is like 101 level thinking. Come on

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:08 pm It’s only bizarre if you completely ignore what I’m actually saying and twist it entirely differently

I say this with all seriousness, actually read what I’m saying, until then fuck off.

And I genuinely hope you’re Mafia cause jfc if you’re doing this as town.

Yes I get what you said. But I talk to people as if they're mafia all the time and it produces valuable thread content.

What is so bad about me doing this as town?

Wtf do you mean do better though. I am absolutely baffled by your perspective and I think this discussion may have actually helped me see a world where you're town so it wasn't all bad. And that's from a starting point where I was talking to you assuming you were scum, so that just proves my point.

I hope [mention]Sloonei[/mention] reads that exchange. I felt like I was channeling his spirit a bit.

"something I did that was good"

sorry, I'm not convinced.

I know your game, and I think you usually do more by this point. You've been mostly just reactive, rather than asking lots of questions of people.

Do you suspect me? If so tell me more. Unless you subscribe to the Nanook school now.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:45 pm I assume she doesn’t have the same radiant “look at me I’m town!” aura about her.

And you think she has that here??

Mostly his jump onto the MR wagon when he randomly decided to trust DDL for no reason. I have talked about this and pulled the quotes. I thought it was a really bad look, that whole string of posts where he turned around on DDL and followed him on MR without justification. It looked to me like potentially an attempt to save Nanook (after he had briefly had his vote on nanook but felt icky about it) but I think also looks bad independent of Nanook's alignment. Also I think he's a decent candidate to have killed 112.

Here is the main string of Hyena posts I didn't like. His progressions just seem random.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:02 pm Speedchuck, talk to me about DDL. If you can convince me that DDL's town, I might be open to considering MR as an option, too.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:41 pm [VOTE: Nanook] aubergine
I feel disgusting doing this, lol.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:42 pm Honestly, I'd still go for Tony if anybody's interested.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm Actually, Nanook, would you go for MR for self-preservation purposes?

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm Actually, Nanook, would you go for MR for self-preservation purposes?
I like the people on MR way more than I do the other wagons.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:47 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:46 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm Actually, Nanook, would you go for MR for self-preservation purposes?
Obviously I’ll go anyone for self prez if it comes to it lol
Okay, cool. I'll settle for MR then.
[VOTE: Master Radish] aubergine

DDL, welcome to my towncore. You're taking MR's spot.

And here are his responses to my gripes
[mention]juliets[/mention] I see you're asking him again, this is all he's said so far which is not very satisfying lol

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:12 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:17 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:47 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:46 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm Actually, Nanook, would you go for MR for self-preservation purposes?
Obviously I’ll go anyone for self prez if it comes to it lol
Okay, cool. I'll settle for MR then.
[VOTE: Master Radish] aubergine

DDL, welcome to my towncore. You're taking MR's spot.
Uh ohhhhh

Nutella no likey

Im high btw
This was a huge moment, and not just because I was high lol. This was an awful look on Hyena, and made me think I had misplaced my trust in him. I think it's possible he's teammates with Nanook and was looking for a reason to justify joining the MR train to save his teammate. Why did he suddenly decide to trust DDL of all people? It made no sense. Hyena explain yourself.
DDL was going to take MR's place in my town circle since I couldn't keep MR there if were going to all vote for him. :P Since MR is still here though, DDL is back out and MR is back in.

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:17 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:00 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:02 pm Speedchuck, talk to me about DDL. If you can convince me that DDL's town, I might be open to considering MR as an option, too.
@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME this is the last thing he said about DDL before welcoming him into his towncore. I haven't looked at what speed or DDL posted in between those, but regardless I don't know how you could call that well-developed.
Oh. Yeah, it wasn't well-developed. Can't deny that, lol. I just made a decision on the fly and decided to roll with it.

Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:19 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:03 pm Lol yeah speed wasn't convincing and ddl hardly said anything relevant, Hyena just decided to townread him somewhere in there without explaining why.

Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm
Hyena wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:44 pm Actually, Nanook, would you go for MR for self-preservation purposes?
I like the people on MR way more than I do the other wagons.
It really makes no sense.
Yeah, basically this!

I think my main problem is how you were so willing to vote for someone who was in your towncore rather than try to get a better wagon going. MR was one of your top townreads from how I saw it, and you decided to throw that away on a whim and trust DDL instead whom you had previously suspected I think. Like I understand the words you're saying in your explanation but I don't understand the sentiment/motivation behind it.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:55 pm Keep in mind we need a consensus suspect to agree to lynch on top of the normal lynch.

Yeah. Other people should make lists like mine or something to indicate who is the best candidate for that. I'm guessing Wilgy will be a fine choice for most but let's see if anyone else arises as a good choice.

Yeah, when he is allowed to make it to later game he can do very well but as of now he feels like dead weight

If anyone has better ideas I'm listening though.

(E.g. if enough people agree on a more substantial candidate like nanook or hyena that would be fun)

Okay, thanks Hyena. I think a major sticking point for me is the fourth section there -- Nanook winning out over your towncore. Can you elaborate any more on that? If he was "winning out" over your towncore does that not make him your towncore??

I just don't see why your desire not to lynch Nanook outweighed your desire not to lynch in your towncore. You kept saying you weren't "ready" for Nanook to die. What does that mean exactly and what made him a separate thing from your towncore concept?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:18 pm I think he just likes playing with me and prioritized that over TRs.

If it's just that, or some combination of that and giving you another phase to prove yourself, I guess I can understand that but I still find it sketchy

Like, if I count player A as being in my towncore/top town reads and player B as someone who I enjoy playing with and/or would like to see more from to get a read on, I think I always would rather lynch player B than player A.

You know, unless player B is my scumbuddy.

Hyena wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:21 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:15 pm Okay, thanks Hyena. I think a major sticking point for me is the fourth section there -- Nanook winning out over your towncore. Can you elaborate any more on that? If he was "winning out" over your towncore does that not make him your towncore??
The best way I can explain how I feel about Nanook is... I -want- him to be town. Basically like how I wanted Elephant to be town in the Inception game and how I almost pushed for my own lynch over his, even though he ended up being scum. It doesn't mean that Nanook necessarily is, and I don't feel like he's left his scum range, but, like, I just didn't want to lynch him yet. Not at that point in time. There was absolutely no logic in my decision. It was just straight up emotion and gut.

Ok

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:22 pm Why is what you would do a valid way to read hyena?

I'm just trying to make sense of it. I can't really argue against "it was just a gut-based/emotional snap decision" as I've probably done things like that before that I couldn't really defend logically either, so maybe my "what I would do" isn't even sound. I'm trying to see it his way but I'm missing whatever emotional component led him to spontaneously follow DDL. I can see a world in which he made that decision from a townie perspective. I can also see a world in which he is scum.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:34 pm Reading someone based off “I would do X but they did Y” is very rarely an accurate or good way to read someone. Especially someone that’s as markedly different as hyena is from nutella.

It’s lazy at best and a cheap way to build a fake case if you’re mafia.

You are willfully misinterpreting the way I am approaching this.

I never said that he is bad because he did something I wouldn't have done. I just posed that as a way of asking and trying to think about why he might have done it.

Also I don't think Hyena and I are that different? I feel a kinship with his style in general

You seem rather quick to attack me for trying to puzzle this out though

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:42 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:41 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:34 pm Reading someone based off “I would do X but they did Y” is very rarely an accurate or good way to read someone. Especially someone that’s as markedly different as hyena is from nutella.

It’s lazy at best and a cheap way to build a fake case if you’re mafia.
You are willfully misinterpreting the way I am approaching this.

I never said that he is bad because he did something I wouldn't have done. I just posed that as a way of asking and trying to think about why he might have done it.
WOW the irony and/or hypocrisy, ok

Sorry, what?

I don't follow.

I feel like you're being jumpy at the oddest things lol.

Are you calling me a hypocrite for saying you read my intentions incorrectly?

I shouldn't have assumed it was willful misinterpretation, I apologize for that word choice, but otherwise there is some severe miscommunication here.

Stepping back from the confrontation and commenting on it externally: In games I've played with Nanook where we were both town, I don't think we butted heads nearly this much; in fact I think I often understood his perspective better than others did when he was under scrutiny. Here we've had multiple arguments/miscommunications/disagreements about our approaches to the game (as they have applied specifically in this game) and he's been really eager to shit on me for petty differences in perspective. Not the kind of interactions I'd personally expect to have with a town Nanook. I think he is extra touchy on the details because he is scum and I'm catching on.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:53 pm Let's just lynch Nanook and Nutella and call it a day.

Why do you still want to lynch me lol

Actually though, you are either faking a scumlean on me because you're scum, or your magic nutellameter is broken again. You haven't elaborated on your read of me at all, can you do that? And also explain your scumlean of LC while you're at it.

[mention]juliets[/mention] Talk about your current feelings on Nanook please and thank you.

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] Talk please and thank you.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:02 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:00 pm Actually though, you are either faking a scumlean on me because you're scum, or your magic nutellameter is broken again. You haven't elaborated on your read of me at all, can you do that? And also explain your scumlean of LC while you're at it.
It's gut and fear over misreading you all game.

Like read half a game -> misread you -> start new game and read 2/3rds of it -> scumread you for fear of being fooled again.

But seriously I'm feeling bad vibes from your pushes. I don't see anything that looks dishonestly though, which is your tell. Idk. I really don't know what to do with you. I ought to just leave you alone and let the read come at its own pace.

Lol ok.

What specifically about my "pushes" has felt bad? You seemed to agree with me at least partially on Nanook. What about the Hyena stuff?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:04 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:50 pm Stepping back from the confrontation and commenting on it externally: In games I've played with Nanook where we were both town, I don't think we butted heads nearly this much; in fact I think I often understood his perspective better than others did when he was under scrutiny. Here we've had multiple arguments/miscommunications/disagreements about our approaches to the game (as they have applied specifically in this game) and he's been really eager to shit on me for petty differences in perspective. Not the kind of interactions I'd personally expect to have with a town Nanook. I think he is extra touchy on the details because he is scum and I'm catching on.
Massive eye roll. 3/4 of your “case” is that I’m lying about mafia philosophy combined with completely twisting what I said into something else.

So yes I’m pretty frustrated with you.

I don't think you're lying. I just haven't understood where you were coming from, and in some cases felt you were misinterpreting something. I'm not trying to twist anything.

And I suspected you before all this stuff anyway.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:10 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:04 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:02 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:00 pm Actually though, you are either faking a scumlean on me because you're scum, or your magic nutellameter is broken again. You haven't elaborated on your read of me at all, can you do that? And also explain your scumlean of LC while you're at it.
It's gut and fear over misreading you all game.

Like read half a game -> misread you -> start new game and read 2/3rds of it -> scumread you for fear of being fooled again.

But seriously I'm feeling bad vibes from your pushes. I don't see anything that looks dishonestly though, which is your tell. Idk. I really don't know what to do with you. I ought to just leave you alone and let the read come at its own pace.
Lol ok.

What specifically about my "pushes" has felt bad? You seemed to agree with me at least partially on Nanook. What about the Hyena stuff?
Nothing! Nothing specific. That's why I'm not actually lynching you today. Just like a tingling sensation. Like spider sense if someone is trying to hit you with a pie but not murder you. I'd understand if someone thought that was a fake thing to say but idgaf.

I agree with you on Nanook. I feel like talking to a player I have caught always always always makes them look worse and me look better. And a lot of the time, talking to a player I incorrectly suspect leads to me turning around my read. I get that Nanook has a different play style than some folks but I feel like I have a decent idea of how he plays (like just instinctively knowing that he'd fake a red peek) and I feel like I'd have picked up on the idea that he doesn't talk to his scumreads. That's such a weird play quirk.

I've kinda skimmed your Hyena stuff because he feels pure and I love his avatar and I want him to be town. I haven't personally felt pinged by anything he says. Disclaimer: I've only seen town Hyena.

Cool cool, good stuff.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:12 pm Good stuff?

I just really liked the post and vibed with a lot of what you said, even the Hyena stuff.

Like I've never seen scum Hyena before either so maybe I'm full of shit?

I waffle between thinking Hyena and Nanook are teammates and thinking probably only one of them is scum, and then I waffle on which one. Right now I'm in a wave of thinking Nanook is worse and Hyena is better but that could change any moment lol.

I've got some swirling thoughts about DDL and juliets mixed in there as well. I'd love to hear more from both of them and especially about each other and Hyena/Nanook.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people

I understood that the entire time. Everything I said was in reference to that. I engage with suspects specifically addressing them as suspects and what I said and what jack said still holds.

I mean why would I treat a suspect as town anyway? If I'm not sure about them and want to sort them out, sure I give them the benefit of the doubt. If someone is my top suspect, yeah, I'm going to treat them as if they're mafia. That doesn't mean that engagement can't be productive, both for those directly involved and for observers.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:05 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:03 pm Like regardless of my alignment, I’m going to talk to people as if they’re town. Otherwise what’s the point of talking to them at all. SRing me for that is almost as bad as “nanook can’t SR anyone!” which is also demonstrably, patently false.

So yeah, do better, regardless of your alignment.
You've literally said the same two sentences three times now. I don't understand them. Why the fuck would you not engage people you suspect? You're doing it right now, no? Or not, because you don't actually suspect me.

Okay I will concede that in this early part of the conversation I may have misinterpreted it, but I quickly understood the distinction you were making and my point still stood.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:10 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:08 pm It’s only bizarre if you completely ignore what I’m actually saying and twist it entirely differently

I say this with all seriousness, actually read what I’m saying, until then fuck off.

And I genuinely hope you’re Mafia cause jfc if you’re doing this as town.
Yes I get what you said. But I talk to people as if they're mafia all the time and it produces valuable thread content.

Here I clearly state that I understood what you meant and still believed in my argument.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:23 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:20 pm Holy fuck I didn’t say I don’t talk to my scumreads

I said I don’t talk to people as if they’re mafia.

Like jfc people
I knew that. I was just testing you.

Can you like to you saying that?

The idea that you assume everyone is town is weird too. Like...the whole game is about trying to figure out who is a wolf and if you assume nobody is a wolf *fart noises*

I think he's gonna get mad that you're twisting his words again here lol. He suspects people but still treats them as if they're town. That's the distinction he's making. I am holding that it is still worthwhile to engage with someone while treating them as scum.

[mention]NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME[/mention] here's the thing. Many's the time I have engaged with a suspect, in a way such that I was treating them as scum/assuming they were scum, and because of that interaction actually ended up changing my mind about them. So don't try to tell me it's never productive. I understand if it's not the way you play, I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt wherever possible and treat people as if they're town whenever it feels reasonable and productive to do so. I'm not trying to shit on you for saying that's the way you play. But when you say things like "otherwise what's the point?" it feels rude and as if you are trying to shit on the way others play. I hope that clears up why I was set off by the way you said that. Let's move on now.

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