The Syndicate

DharmaHelper wrote:I don't see L/Light as the MOST anti civilian option. I think that would be secret ballot. I've spent several posts explaining how the L/Light mechanic could have been used to civ advantage. You do however have me dead to rights in one regard. I did not post any of the hundreds of permutations of the L/Light mechanic that gave the mafia the advantage. Correctomundo. The one example I did use was a completely randomized example that happened to be civ friendly. It is of course not the only civ friendly example, nor the best example, but it illustrated my point that the L/Light mechanic was not as Light favorable as most people would believe.

DharmaHelper wrote:Your participation is not at issue, And I don't appreciate you framing my suspicion of you in that light, because it's dishonest and not what I said or intended. Your suspicion of Rico is what is at issue. I found it to be premature and tunnel-visiony. As for my thoughts on Rico, initially I agreed with his points regarding the L mechanic and L/Wat. I do find it odd that his vote did not reflect his spirited discussion regarding L and the L/Light mechanic. I would suspect him less if he stuck to his guns in that situation, but I don't see him as Public Enemy #1.

DharmaHelper wrote:The last time someone told me I was "better than this" in a mafia game did not go over so well. Alright, let me see if I have this right. You're saying that the only people we need to kill to win are the Kiras. What I'm saying is that these Kiras have teammates that are likely not civ-friendly, and that makes them all "mafia" in a simplistic sense. boo laid this out, so I won't, Instead I will say that I take no issue with lynching Sympathizers or Yotsuba. Nor do I think that cases pinning anyone as a Sympathizer or Yotsuba subordinate should be discounted. Lynching Sympathizers and Subordinates will give us the information we need to find the Kiras. What I feel like you're saying is that ONLY the Kiras pose a threat and therefore ONLY the Kiras should be lynch targets.

Made wrote:And Re Epi:

Epignosis wrote: My major issue with this post is that you are adding win conditions to the civilians. "They also need justice to prevail" is not an objective win condition.

MovingPictures07 wrote: All I have to say in response is: The options are written the way they are for specific reason.

Responses from MP like the above make me think that "Justice prevail" and "utopia" might have meanings in the grand scheme of things. That said, I think we shouldn't speculate too much on what those could possibly mean.

boo wrote:I'm going to go ahead and point out what to me is blatantly obvious but has some how gone undiscussed in what Epi and DH have already been talking about re: the mafia (maybe, kinda, sorta) teams. Remember Bioshock. That MP game where I was right on the nose about the breakdown of roles from the get-go, outlining it in detail on D4 when I was killed for being right? Because I do.

Now, I don't know about this theme, but here's what seems obvious from the roles.

1) Not all detectives are actually civvies, because right in the description they have anti-L leanings, and at least one of them mentions going to 'the mafia' (that's mello). Now, I don't know if the Yotsuba group are gangsters or not, and are like an actual mafia, but that was my assumption based on what the story seems to be about. If that isn't in the case, it could refer to either (or some weird ass combination?) of the two non-detective groups.

2) The detectives need all Kira's dead. Plain and simple. They also need justice to prevail. Now, that could just be flavour about what happens when the Kira's are dead, but that seems wrong, so I think for the sake of simplicity, we can treat their win conditions as all Kira's being dead and ???, probably dependent on the role and not as a whole group (since as a group they are conflicted).

3) We have no idea what the Yotsuba's need to do to win. We do know they don't have BTSC to start, and we do know Higuchi (the leader of the 'team' I guess) is the third kira (suggesting to me the first and second kira need to die or some chain of events need to occur for them to lose the NK and it to go to Higuchi). Once Higuchi has a death note (and is therefore able to start killing) they all get to start giving input for how they want to kill. After one kill, one role gets a call. After 2, another role brings a bunch of the other people in the group together (that would seem to suggest BTSC to me). Now, one of those 4 vanilla looking roles isn't even mentioned as being invited to the secret meeting, so either that would make sense as the caller, or the role that was added to the game when we went from 26 to 27 (and probably just needs to be added to the invite).

Now, I still think they're a mafia team. The description to me sounds like they have a unified win condition, and 4 roles have no description or secrets, so I would assume they have none. Add to that the fact that they can kill, and the method for BTSC while not clear cut seems reasonably easy to puzzle out. The one thing I am thinking, is that since Higuchi is just a tool of Kira #1, maybe that's some sort of traitor role, and at some point (or if conditions are met) maybe the conditions of all those roles change (or maybe they don't even have any to start, and learn them down the line).

All that to say, someone in the Yotsuba group dies, I would count that as a win that while not as good as killing a Kira (or anyone that is part of the second sympathizer team) since the detective conditions are not as clear cut as some people would seem to like them to be. Which makes the kill priority: Kira = Kira 2 = Kira 3 = Kira X, a sympathizer is better than a yotsuba group member but a yotsuba member isn't a bad catch. Then maybe 1 or 2 detectives who it wouldn't be sad to see go, but just because they don't agree with L as a role doesn't even mean the player in the role wants him dead, so I wouldn't be happy if they died or count it as a win. Then we have the indy, and I have no idea where to place it.

4) Then lets round it out. We have Kira and the sympathizers. This seems like the really clear cut mafia team. We know they need the detectives dead, and then a utopian world order has to be started (Light hates criminals, my assumption is the Yatsuba group are gangsters, I assume Light and co need at least some of those roles dead to win).

So, to me it boils down simpler than Bioshock was, while still being unconventional.

The Detectives are civvies. Within the group are possible traitors or traitor-like roles who may just not get a say in what happens to their win conditions.

Kira and the Sympathizers are mafia.

The Yotsuba group are like solo-baddies to start I think (or at least that's how we can treat them), and maybe some of them can become part of a team of baddies, or maybe some can become indies. The Higuchi wiki link Epi posted doesn't really clear up what happens with the spoiler stuff he talked about for me to puzzle that out, but it seems like anyone who is familiar with the material should be able to clear that up well enough to set up reasonable expectations.

Then the indie. A best guess of stuff like win-with-anyone, SK, or join a team, again seems like something anyone with familiarity should be able to help us out with.

DharmaHelper wrote:My first suspect is Epi, for the following reasons:

1. His exchange with me regarding the lynch options felt to me as though he was being obtuse and intentionally missing much of the point.
2. His attack on Ricochet feels opportunistic, hasty and ill-thought out.
3. He's literally saying "Hey lets not lynch ALL the mafia, am I right guys?"

Believe it or not, Epi is not my strongest suspect and I would probably not vote for him if the lynch was right now. Having played with Epi several times I am aware that what often seems like intentional shiftyness is just him being him.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Two arguments with DharmaHelper in one day? Let me see if I can summon the strength...

DharmaHelper wrote:Epi now I know you're taking the piss.

You shouldn't tell people what you "know." That's info-dumping.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.

So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives.

Correct. But detectives do not need all of that team dead to win.
1 But as long as at least one Kira (And that team has several Kiras) is alive, that teams win condition is literally "Kill all Detectives." That is not civ-friendly. Are you suggesting we let them be? If a connection/case can be made down the line that someone is on that team but not one of the Kiras you would advocate NOT lynching that person?

DharmaHelper wrote:And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.)

I disagree. The detectives do not need them dead to win (except one of their number). I do not think that they need the detectives dead to win. If you agree with me on that second premise, then the conclusion is that the Yotsuba group are not Mafia- only one of them is.

2 You don't "think" they need the detectives dead to win? Come on dude. They have a secret win condition which to me means that to err on the side of caution and lynch them would be best.

DharmaHelper wrote:Have a secret win condition,

Right, one that is probably not "kill all the detectives" or "eliminate all the Kira." Do you think they share the same win condition? I don't.
3 Somehow I doubt their win condition is "Help the civs pretty please."

DharmaHelper wrote:the possibility to NK,

A democratic Night kill, which means the Kira himself does not have direct control over this.

4 Ok great. But aren't all mafias technically democratic night kills? I don't understand how "Don't worry guys, they're DEMOCRATICALLY killing civs at night." makes your point any better.

DharmaHelper wrote:and at least one opportunity for BTSC

Correct. But not all of them, and not with the Kira, if my interpretation of Shingo Mido is correct.

DharmaHelper wrote:Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.

What "groups?" I did not argue that any "groups" are "civ-friendly." You are loading what I said with meaning that isn't there, Tomodachi.
5 You are advocating that the civs (Detectives) do not need certain parts of the mafias (Yotsuba and Light) dead to win the game and visa versa, which translates to me to "civ-friendly." since they can, in your view, win together.

Addendum: Now I see why I had the strength to go a second bout. It is a new Day.

Made wrote:Ok, I'm going to be suicidal, but as a jumping off point, isn't reasonable to assume that L, Light, and Ryuk voted the Light/L option on the day 0 poll?

thellama73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I made a list of four people that I would vote for on Day 1. Turnip Head is one of those, although not for the same reasoning you raised, llama.

Am I on your list?

DharmaHelper wrote:Epi now I know you're taking the piss.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.

So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives.

DharmaHelper wrote:And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.)

DharmaHelper wrote:Have a secret win condition,

DharmaHelper wrote:the possibility to NK,

DharmaHelper wrote:and at least one opportunity for BTSC

DharmaHelper wrote:Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

DharmaHelper wrote:Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:

Epignosis wrote:For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.

Explain to me this, Epi:

How does this system offer anyone an out as you have described it? In what way is "Maybe my vote was worth more, maybe it was worthless" a legitimate way to excuse voting for someone? Regardless of the value of the vote, the fact remains that the vote was cast. And in most cases it was cast with the expectation that it counted, and with the intent to lynch the person voted for. Maybe I'm dense and I don't get it, but I'm inviting you to explain to me what it is I'm missing.

As for the bounty of information, and how it benefits L/Light, I'm again unsure if I understand your point. It is a *requirement* that L and Light put 50% of the current playerbase on their lists. So neither list will be 100% mafia or 100% civilian, which means Light will have just as difficult a time figuring out L's intentions as L will have with Light's. Without knowing who is on the other list, L and Light are on even footing. There is legwork required to figure out even the most vague of details in order to do what you've described. Legwork that civilians are just as capable of doing, although (no offense intended) perhaps not willing to do.

DharmaHelper wrote:

Epignosis wrote:For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Ricochet wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Do it then. I have already acquired the taste of others misinterpreting my intentions from minute zero.

Very well. Explain your intentions.

I did. It's in that post. It's raising an issue on the L/Light type of voting based on how many connections or how much awareness could potentially form in both sides and which side would end up with more advantage, if this type of voting would be established over a long period of time.

But instead, I started pinging with preferring to name Light Kira (even though I said I'm willing to not do that), with being too drawn in by the theme and thus making too many assumptions based on it rather than relying on the specific-written roles (even though I apologized for making that logical jump) and being called a bullshitter for not being entirely sure if suggesting what BTSC connections could form is a way of hinting or not.

Ricochet wrote:Do it then. I have already acquired the taste of others misinterpreting my intentions from minute zero.

Ricochet wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Woo game! And intriguing start with it.

I was going to say I'd easily go with an experimental type of lynching for a pretty experimental game, out of which I'd prefer the L/Kira type over Secret or Nihilistic, which do not seem to me like they'd be of any help in vote analysis. But now there's a worrying detail about the L/Kira type and I'd like everyone to say if it makes sense or not:

Both L and Kira (note: I'll usually have the simple habit to refer to Light as Kira; if there are strong disagreements with this, I'll use Light) start in BTSC with another player (Watari/Ryuk); it's safe to assume both L and Kira will always add themselves and their companions in their choices. None of the sides have collective BTSC by default right now, but the Yotsuba and Kira groups are hinted to develop further in the game. I tend to believe the secrets to the roles will be very much related to the story / character traits, which means, and I hope it's no hinting in saying this, that L might get in touch with a couple more detectives, but over at Kira, his main sympathizers might either be handed DN (Death Notes) without finding out the identity of Kira, or gain contact with him. That would put the Kira camp in a bit more advantage, if the L/Kira lynch-type will truly be adopted over a long period of time.

Then again, L could compensate with his role-checking and be more aware than Kira on whom he should pick, over the same extended period of time.

But all this makes me less sure of the whole L/Kira type. It's the most temping, but also troublesome in figuring out which side is getting the advantage in it.

I can sleep on it, though (as in literally, past 1am here), and hear more thoughts before voting.

Major linkage: Ok, wow. I think a few just picked up on what I did too.

I don't understand the purpose this kind of speculating has. Damn near every role has secrets.

Major linkage? You are no good sir.

What does that have to do with what I speculated?

Ricochet wrote:Woo game! And intriguing start with it.

I was going to say I'd easily go with an experimental type of lynching for a pretty experimental game, out of which I'd prefer the L/Kira type over Secret or Nihilistic, which do not seem to me like they'd be of any help in vote analysis. But now there's a worrying detail about the L/Kira type and I'd like everyone to say if it makes sense or not:

Both L and Kira (note: I'll usually have the simple habit to refer to Light as Kira; if there are strong disagreements with this, I'll use Light) start in BTSC with another player (Watari/Ryuk); it's safe to assume both L and Kira will always add themselves and their companions in their choices. None of the sides have collective BTSC by default right now, but the Yotsuba and Kira groups are hinted to develop further in the game. I tend to believe the secrets to the roles will be very much related to the story / character traits, which means, and I hope it's no hinting in saying this, that L might get in touch with a couple more detectives, but over at Kira, his main sympathizers might either be handed DN (Death Notes) without finding out the identity of Kira, or gain contact with him. That would put the Kira camp in a bit more advantage, if the L/Kira lynch-type will truly be adopted over a long period of time.

Then again, L could compensate with his role-checking and be more aware than Kira on whom he should pick, over the same extended period of time.

But all this makes me less sure of the whole L/Kira type. It's the most temping, but also troublesome in figuring out which side is getting the advantage in it.

I can sleep on it, though (as in literally, past 1am here), and hear more thoughts before voting.

Major linkage: Ok, wow. I think a few just picked up on what I did too.