The Syndicate

Russtifinko wrote:And did I miss something? What's with the funny hat avatars going around, here?

Come on Russ. You know you wanna.

Golden wrote:I'm glad the roles were reset, but I have to be honest... I did not see your slip up G-Man. It wasn't as clear as mine.

Yeah, I saw that one too. Too bad I was dead.

G-Man wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I ratted you out to the hosts too.

Oh, good! At least we're both honest!

I won't play if the game is compromised. No fun. I was completely prepared to be replaced for the first time ever.

I ratted you out to the hosts too.

When you have an open setup with a large number of detailed, thematic roles, you can't have info dumping. And if you do, Mafia should be able to quickly snuff it out, and the dumper shouldn't win for doing it and getting killed.

That's the "dirty version" of my perspective.

Closed vanilla games? Knock yourselves out with the info and claims. It works there.

I don't have a hard stance on civilians being alive to win. In Masters of the Universe, the entire civilian faction won because Flyin' High won.

Since then, I've been meticulous about whether civilians should win as a group or not. It always depends on the roles and powers.

And "info" doesn't just mean things people learn. Civilian BTSC (Masons?) is info.

Keep it rare in any game of any setting.

Make info rare. That's the obvious answer.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

S~V~S wrote:And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

I never win a game in this format. I'm not complaining.

S~V~S wrote:And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

I have developed a highly nuanced opinion of this subject. I would love to write about it, but I haven't done so yet, and I'm boozing, and about to watch some bullshit TV program.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epignosis -- i hope i didn't rub you the wrong way with my Day/Night 1 aggression against you. i didn't mean it personally. rather, i saw you as the provocative type, and my favorite thing in all of mafia is to provoke provokers. had you been given more time to play, i am sure you'd have been a big asset.

No one rubs me the wrong way! It's a game.

All the same, I hope to run you through the dyer without any fabric softener one of these days.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Pleased to see the role was not wasted.

So I suppose you were the previous John Nash?

The thought of that is scary.

No, I was Coase turned Friedman.

Pleased to see the role was not wasted.

I had MP pegged as Adam Smith at the end of Night 1. As soon as he started the "Epi is bad news I'm 100% sure" nonsense and I died I was shaking my head. He was simultaneously taking credit for killing me and placing a huge target on his back; I knew he would be night killed soon. He was.

Taking out Eloh early on was bad move too. Serial killers are put in games to balance things in favor of civilians, as they can pick off Mafia (if you don't agree with me, then ask yourselves why people put civilian ninjas in a game- they function the same way). When Eloh got lynched (and Golden, MM, and I were already gone by Day 2), I predicted the Mafia would win.

My "ruse" against MP was less of a ruse to gauge reactions (it was partly that). It was a ruse within a ruse: My real plan was to behave outrageously enough to keep myself alive long enough for the role checker to target me. One cannot account for the power thief to take over the SK kill Night 1 and kill one, can one?

I also had Golden pegged as the last Mafia as soon as he posted this:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:So the game hasn't ended yet?

Yeah, I had quite a bit of nervous excitement about this lynch because I thought there was a legitimate chance the game could be over. Clearly not. Sorry epi on the bright side, I won't ask JJ to look at meaningful interactions between you and bass.

Golden was not in the game when I died. He had no reason to say "Sorry epi." Why did no one call him on this?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Oh, I'd like to play with you.

Golden wrote:Why did Australia get an entry at EUROvision?

I hear they only send British prisoners to perform.

MovingPictures07 wrote:(Epi, I'm having a spinach salad). :P

I'm having brains.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Yeah, I want opinions on my vote too. And not only what it means about me, but also what it means about the person I'm voting for.

Sloonei wrote:

Sloonei wrote:spefically

I brought my A game to the thread today.

Epi is cursing you right now.

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Oh look, I died early again.

I think we set a collective record for our shortest combined time in game. and that was already looooooow.

Question for the crowd who believes there is such a thing as "townie play" and "baddie play:" Is deciding that someone's lynch during the Night phase a foregone conclusion on Night 1 a civilian play or a Mafia play?

Saying this:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Look, I've already said this, and so have several other players. Either you aren't reading the thread or you're desperately trying to save yourself from a certain lynch. The latter is incredibly likely.

If you need me to tell you what you did, then clearly there's something wrong.

You're mafia precisely because of how you have acted throughout the entire game.

Before any kill has happened, and before any Day 2 discussion has occurred, MP says this.

Statements like this and all the 100% silliness on Day 2 are very unlike MP in any scenario. He usually qualifies the hell out of his posts. I am scratching my head, because him seriously thinking he's pegged two out of four Mafia on Night 1 makes him look like an arrogant fool.

Now- and this is me talking- I don't mind arrogance and I don't mind some foolishness. But it's an art.

The underlined is an empty dilemma. I can attest that Elohcin is not neglecting the thread, so, according to MP, the only possibility is that she is "desperately trying to save yourself from a certain lynch." Well...who says her lynch is certain? Does no one outside of three or four people have a voice in her fate? That's incredibly presumptuous.

And if she does turn out bad, MP has already decided that I'm next. So here we have someone who can't read me OR Elohcin for shit deciding on the basis of Day 1 that we are "100%" "certain" teammates.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:MP, think about it. DO you think I would agree with Epi in the thread about you if I were Mafia with him? No way. I would steer clear of that.

WIFOM

You're bad. I'm 100% sure. Absolutely.

Arrogant foolishness.

Doesn't suit you MP.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: This guy is a player who does not play like a townie. Ever. If he is mafia, he is scummy. If he is town, he is scummy. No matter what, he will play in a way that makes him seen suspicious. He will spend a lot of energy going in directions that make no sense and seem to be more for trolling than anything, he won't bother to justify his votes in a way that others would find acceptable... he just gives no fucks, about anything, ever.

This is the kind of guy that makes it tempting to policy lynch early. I can't justify a player like this living long. The next day phase is pretty much guaranteed to have a good part of its discussion on him, and if we allow it he is going to push it in useless directions again. We need to either figure him out soon or kill him. Or both.

This is 100% accurate.

That said, he has changed up his approach to the game considerably over time, and continues to do so, but it still generally follows your description.

You are a Ph.D candidate in accounting and it would seem you have no concept of what "100%" is.

Go read me in Clue. Or Super Meat Boy*, since you hosted that. Would you say my play in either of those was "scummy?" If so, then your comment, "This is 100% accurate" is nonsense.

*For anyone who actually looks this up, I was cursed phase 1 to sing.

But I say there is no such thing as "playing like a townie." Throwing people off guard through deceit and manipulation is every bit a strategy for a civilian, especially when the Mafia usually try to "look civvie." My approach places people in uncomfortable positions, and in those uncomfortable positions, some truth leaks out.

There is no prescriptivist civilian play. And I'll maintain this position until I die (in real life).

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:My view on Epi:

He spent the entire day phase picking on me and MP. On me because of my posting style, and on MP because of his response times. He later admitted that he was only messing up with MP, and implied that it was the same thing with me (when he said that he wouldn't miss a chance to mess with new players).

Not the case. My suspicion of you was genuine. However, I was satisfied with the response I waited so patiently to hear.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I'm certain that Epi is mafia.

You are not.

Mr. Salt and Mrs. Pepper's first born.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I don't disagree with any of that, but I'd like to see what, if anything, he is able to make of his own behavior moving forward. If he's town, I would trust that he's been doing all this because he believes he can get clearer reads on people by forcing them to react to whatever he's doing. I could easily go either way on hom, depending on how things shake out.

What do you mean "depending on how things shake out?" What exactly would have to happen in order for you to solidify an opinion?

Clearly it's because he's a paprika shaker.

Wait, that's from Blue's Clues, isn't it?

Sloonei wrote:I don't disagree with any of that, but I'd like to see what, if anything, he is able to make of his own behavior moving forward. If he's town, I would trust that he's been doing all this because he believes he can get clearer reads on people by forcing them to react to whatever he's doing. I could easily go either way on hom, depending on how things shake out.

What do you mean "depending on how things shake out?" What exactly would have to happen in order for you to solidify an opinion?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:3J: I don't care to spend much time defending myself. People can read. If they agree with your interpretation of my posts, they can vote for me. If they don't, they can vote elsewhere. I have better things to do than play D.

Roxy: I didn't purposely upset anyone. I tried to mitigate the upset feelings multiple times without revealing my ruse, only to see those attempts backfire. I said why I voted for Golden. Twice.

Blaming the victim much?

I'm not blaming anyone. Roxy said I was purposely upsetting you. I was not trying to upset you. Therefore I was not purposely upsetting anyone.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I know this has been said a couple of times, but I want to reiterate that if I am not included on a PM about a Night action/production/selling it will not go in my spreadsheet and I cannot guarantee that you will benefit from its effects, so to maximize efficiency (like all good economists) make sure my lovely name is in your PM "to" field.

Thank you!

Regarding the "resources".

Does each player gain one gun and one butter on a nightly basis? Is that how that works?

You have to pick one or the other to produce.

Stop expecting handouts from the government.

Dom has been replaced by Vompatti.

lmao how did you not vote today

3J: I don't care to spend much time defending myself. People can read. If they agree with your interpretation of my posts, they can vote for me. If they don't, they can vote elsewhere. I have better things to do than play D.

Roxy: I didn't purposely upset anyone. I tried to mitigate the upset feelings multiple times without revealing my ruse, only to see those attempts backfire. I said why I voted for Golden. Twice.

Sloonei wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?

No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?

Yes.

do you have any intention of sharing their name(s)?

Later.

i'll hold you to this

I'm hosting a big game and doing other things. Now I can talk.

sanmateo and fingersplints both voted for MP after I pulled my stunt. fingersplints might guess that I was doing something like that, but sanmateo doesn't know me.

sanmateo wrote:i think ddl did a lot of scummy shit but at this point im most likely gonna vote for mp07 or th (unexplained vote + "im playing unlike me on purpose"). although mm did the unexplained vote too but they have been more active. i'm looking at golden and wondering if someone's bussing him but i'm not gonna vote for them based on that, i just dont think they're being particularly scummy and its really odd that they are the one player with votes on them rn

or i might just vote ddl out of sheer spite, who knows?

Golden wasn't being "bussed" and I don't understand why anyone would come to that conclusion when Golden only had two votes. I thought Golden was being saved.

Of all the names sanmateo raises, MP (the person he voted for) was the only one without an explanation in this paragraph.

DDL = did scummy shit
TH = unexplained vote + "I'm playing unlike me on purpose."
Golden = Maybe someone is throwing him under a bus
Mp07 = Nothing

sanmateo wrote:

Sloonei wrote:How do people feel about the other two players (MP and Bass) who received multiple votes, in the wake of Golden's lynch?

i still think mp07 is suspicious (he's fucsia on my rainbow list), but elo is my main suspect rn

Again, no reason.

And Elohcin is his top suspect.

sanmateo wrote:at this point i think as scum team of elo + mp07 is more likely than elo + epi, if elo and epi were scum teams their voting would have been very clumsy. in any case i think everyone should focus on getting 1 scum and work their way back instead of trying to catch the whole scum team at once.

This is keeping his hand on the trigger while staying out of the fire.

It gives him an excuse to vote Eloh (a popular choice now all of a sudden) while remaining suspicious of MP. That's posturing.

++++

And 3J? I'm going to call his fluffy ass out too.

Last chance to vote, right? He voted for Bass. 12:16pm EST.

Teddy Ruxpin said:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

sanmateo wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Might be my only chance to vote at work before the deadline.

Voting for Bass_the_Clever

why them over elohcin or epi?

I have less conviction for my suspicion of Eloh than the other two. With Epi i can at least ask myself "is it necessary for mafia Epi to carry on this much to get a townie lynched?" and be given a little pause. Because normally townies do a nice job lynching each other on Day 1 without any veiled mafia guidance.

I also think Bass is more likely to be lynched than the other two considering the progression of the thread lately.

"Is it necessary for mafia Epi to carry on this much to get a townie lynched?"

But when I voted for Golden, 3J thinks he's onto something.

Horse fucking shit, boys and girls.

And this came before the lynch:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't think Epignosis has made a single good point in this game and his Golden vote is nonsense. So I'm definitely on board with making him dead.

3J could have voted later, but he didn't. His reason for voting Bass over anyone else?

"I also think Bass is more likely to be lynched than the other two considering the progression of the thread lately."

3J voted on who was mostly likely to be lynched, but voted for Bass before anyone else did. What the hell?

You all need to wake up and smell the bear shit. It's ripe.

Sloonei wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?

No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?

Yes.

do you have any intention of sharing their name(s)?

Later.

Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?

No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?

Yes.

Golden wrote:Epi tomorrow. Good luck civs.

Excuse me sir, could you lower your voice?

Golden wrote:Lynch Epi tomorrow.

I thought I'd made that clear.

100%, that is who you need to lynch tomorrow.

Sir, I'm going to need to ask you to calm down.

Golden wrote:I'm telling you guys, LYNCH EPI TOMORROW

You will not regret this, I assure you.

Sir, I really need you to calm down.

Golden wrote:Seriously, though, I forgive you all if you lynch Epi tomorrow.

Please take a deep breath and count to-

Golden wrote:Forget an iso.

Don't let an opportunity for analysis and response get in there.

Don't allow epi the opportunity to sway you against his lynch.

JUST LYNCH HIM!

Security!

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:
Correct.

Would you have rather I voted for you? You seem upset.

I am still recovering from being the most upset I've ever been at you in any mafia game, ever, so that could be what you're picking up on. :P That said, I'm not particularly upset at the moment, no.

I'm honestly just surprised you didn't vote for me and I'm not sure what to make of it.

A bunch of new people in this who know nothing about me, and you think I'm going to pass up an opportunity to play with some heads?

You SOB, I was seriously pissed off.

Why did you have to do that?

I'm way too gullible.

I tried on more than one occasion to clue you in to what I was doing. With each attempt you got more agitated. When I posted the AYBS? link, I thought "Surely MP will get it and have a laugh." Instead you lost your shit and called me a pussy.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I'll ISO him later before I develop my Rainbow List, I promise, especially if you die and flip civilian.

Knock yourself out, chief. You've earned the right.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Golden wrote:Seriously, though, I forgive you all if you lynch Epi tomorrow.

And I think the Epi/Eloh thing stinks. Both could be bad, tbqh. I haven't liked Eloh in this game since her first post where she felt the need to have an opinion on everyone, while going after MP for 'sucking up'. Felt like she was trying to fit in and paint a target.

And marmot - it's all your fault!

And TH - I'm on-meta.

If you're bad, then posts like these are genius, because this reads totally genuine civilian Golden to me from a vibes-based standpoint. I just can't stand it.

I'll probably vote Bass, but I am so unsure.

You are an emotional player, and his desperation posts are an emotional appeal.

I feel similarly when I read them.

You know, you're right. I have an internal struggle in that I like to believe I'm an incredibly logical person and that it translates over into my mafia game, but I can't ignore the fact that I operate the game under a heavily emotionally-influenced basis, both in the way that I play and in the way I perceive others' play.

I just feel like the proper approach to the game is a more logically-based one, and I feel that way about life in general, sometimes failing to recognize that obviously emotions are an extension of logic, so I always feel ashamed when I emotionally implode.

Every single time I've attempted to do things rationally, using numbers and logic and operating under as few assumptions as possible, I get shit on for it. The only exception, the only time it ever worked out for me was in Clue (my only civilian win ever in almost three years of playing), and THAT only worked after the Mafia tried three times to kill me. And you bastards almost lynched me because I had false information from the host that was ruining my spreadsheet. I think I physically threatened people with violence if they lynched me so close to endgame.

And three key times I was screwed out of a win because I let someone get away with false indignation. I thought they were mad at me so I stopped pursuing them. I was right all three times about their alignments but did nothing about it because I was manipulated. Since those three instances, I have decided that people can build a bridge and get over it when I have no shits to give that their favorite pet bearded lizard died and they think I'm picking on them. Zero. Shits. Anymore.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Let it be known that civilian Golden has INSANE instincts at catching mafia, so I'm inclined to heavily consider his suspicion of Epi and re-evaluate my thoughts on him when conducting an ISO. I may not change my mind, but I do think this should be noted.

Then I hope, should I be lynched, that Golden's instincts be downgraded from "INSANE" to "Pretty good most of the time."

MovingPictures07 wrote:Epignosis -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! In theory, I could still see an out on him being civilian, but only when considering meta in that he plays a very mafia-like game regardless of alignment. That said, when actually analyzing his behavior, it appears incredibly deceptive and intentionally manipulative, designed to deceive. Golden, the only confirmed civilian, who also has an amazing mafia hunting ability, also said with 100% confidence that Epi is bad. Read remains strong even though I'm not 100% convinced (instead, just strongly convinced), so being honest with myself he is just very slightly above Elo, hence the distinction.

It shouldn't appear incredibly deceptive and intentionally manipulative. It was incredibly deception and intentionally manipulative.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi knows that he would eventually get me to react emotionally if he pushed me hard enough with the weakest possible logic. He knows it's my weak point.

That wasn't my intention.

But now I know that when you get even a little upset, you have the sense of humor of a dead duck.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:One fact that may be useful: Epi's vote on Golden was cast less than 10 seconds after mine. There were two votes there when I clicked the button, and there were four when the page loaded. So he did not bandwagon on my vote, though it's still perfectly possible that he anticipated my vote, or that he bandwagoned on the previous two votes.

Just some thoughts.

I have an explanation for this. I was at work running around hanging signs. During this time, I was thinking about my vote. Golden kept coming to mind because I had never seen him elaborate on his suspicion of me. He kept alluding to Keeler, but wouldn't elaborate. This stood in contrast to what little I've seen him play (in which he was good or independent). When I cast my vote, I saw that you had voted right before me. But then I had to finish my task, which is why my vote post was delayed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't think Epignosis has made a single good point in this game and his Golden vote is nonsense. So I'm definitely on board with making him dead.

Awww...did somebuddy buy da wong fabwic softener for Mr. Snuggums?