The Syndicate

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
True, but I see more reason for the Trickster and the Weather Wizard to be alive. Their abilities have been put in play.

And since FZ has corrected me on Captain Cold's ability, those are probably the only two Old Rogues left alive.

There are definitely just two Old Rogues left, I agree there. I hope to get some answers from SVS soon, her responses will decide which of you will get my vote. One of you is lying, from my perspective, but I have no vantage on a confirmation either way from you, only her. And let's recall also that it was reported that BF was trying to find me. That shouldn't be considered insignificant, considering his role.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
I doubt the Mirror Master is alive, and I do think it is one of either DFarady or Epignosis.

Why is that? I see no reason to suspect Mirror Master is dead?

To flesh things out a bit... Heat Wave sets a fire etc. which doesn't target a player.

Mirror Master spies on a player on odd nights.

The trickster lays a trap on EVEN nights.

So there is theoretically no way Mirror Master could EVER see The Trickster OR Heat Wave do a night action, right?

So SVS, I'd like to hear your answers to my questions, and if your answer is yes to the second question, could you say WHEN specifically this was?

I'm not silenced.

I've sent in a PM to MR to confirm something from a long number of nights ago.

So am I right that, assuming that Roxy was Capt. Cold, that the only possible Old Rogues left alive are Heat Wave, Mirror Master and The Trickster?

In the meantime, SVS, I need to ask you. First, do you believe that Roxy was Capt. Cold? And also, have you ever, in the course of your travels on the map, found any useful items and used them on other players?

Your answers are very important.

S~V~S wrote: Actually, I think there may be fewer baddies. What did people think of Faraday, Epi & DH? Any roles in mind for them? They were all killed by non bad roles so could have been bad. I think 1 or 2 of the three were possibly bad; I think Bullz might have been bad. I think there is either one Old Rogue left , me, and perhaps one other. I thought Bass may have been, but I am also in the throes of recruit paranoia for him, so

I think everyone else is spread over the other affiliations.

There are two Old Rogues left. I'll see your and raise you a

And I found DH's corpse on the map, I beleive he was an indy from what was found there.

FZ. wrote:

timmer wrote:Yes, I was silenced. I imagine that whoever did it hadn't anticipated that it would be such a bizarre lynch day where silencing me would actually have little effect.

Who do you think would want you silenced?

I have no idea. Take your pick, honestly. You can't possibly think that every single person who suspects me of being bad is a good guy... can you? Why WOULDN'T someone dick around with me, look at what TH did all damn game!

Yes, I was silenced. I imagine that whoever did it hadn't anticipated that it would be such a bizarre lynch day where silencing me would actually have little effect.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You're still on my shortlist timmer, but perhaps I shouldn't look at lynching you as a foregone conclusion.

What do you think of SVS?

I remember SVS being on the same wavelength as Roxy early on, especially about Epignosis, so knowing Roxy's role would help a lot but I'm inclined now to believe that Epig was likely up to no good so that's a plus for her. SVS also volunteered the fact recently that her role could change if certain somethings happen, and asked if others have that type of disclaimer on their role. I do not, and so far no one else said THEY do, so that makes me wonder if she's perhaps the missing Arch-Villain - Zoom, who has those ??????? at the end of their role, or, if there is one detective left, maybe she's that role.

Either way, I don't believe she has permanent BTSC with anyone, her reactions to the turns this game has made are similar to what I've been feeling, which is the sense of being alone in a confusing world, lol.

I don't see her as a New Rogue, really. But then, we've seen how my views on that have gone.

Long Con wrote:That's the thing... I had thought TH was being naive to trust Timmer based on the Bass 1.0 lynch. Now it turns out that it was Timmer being naive... or that Timmer and TH were New Rogues together.

Horribly naive. I wish MM would consider that and take the blinders off.

Some of the early interacting with llama, for one thing, plus some map stuff, plus some other stuff I won't mention. I tried to piece together his role from a pile of different little things and came to the absolutely worst conclusion. As of now, the only person I will semi trust is Devin, due to his stance on TH. I am moving to neutral on MM, same reasons, but I'm not sure about Sophie.

FTR, I strongly believed TH was Wally West.

This is officially the worst game I've ever plaYed. Eff you TH and my apologies to Devin. Ive been wrong every step of the way except for bass 1.0.

S~V~S wrote:I don't know what to think. Bsss' vote confuses me, and the influence of the Top means nothing is reliable.

I am going with my gut here and voting Sophie. I don't get a seriously bad feeling from TH,but I don't get a good enough feel to try to save him with a vote for Devin. I feel stronger about Sophie.

I will join you in voting Sophie, then. If I can't get Devin traction she's a decent fall back choice. TH, would you be able to move your vote as well?

TH, I'd ask you to join me in voting Devin. I think you should be willing to do that?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
I suppose that's possible.

I actually had good vibes from Devin, partially because he's followed my votes.

That's meant to be funny, right?

Hmm... you know what the problem is with this game? There is too much going on behind the scenes and not enough in the thread. As such, it is impossible to put together a traditional case. So I'm going to go with my gut right now and build a case on hunch. Devin has indeed posted and his posts were indeed enlightening. I'm voting Devin.

Wally would have not have tried to imprison Devin before because the role was vacant. Someone apparently targeted Girder last night. It was Devin and Long Con who mentioned that Girder was in play last night. They were in tune with what happened. Good odds that one of them could be Girder. And again, we see the failed kills happening now, with Devin in the game and his role now logically targeted.

I believe there is about a 75% chance Devin is Girder and that role cannot be nk'd.

voting devin

Mm, your idea about map based btsc linking new rogues could be true but it doesn't count in the case of me th and Dh. At worst one of us is bad, and it isn't me or dh. I found his grave on the map and let's just say there was something there that strongly suggested what his role had been. I believe he was an indy.

I'm remaining open minded about th. You keep trying to say that I've been his best bud but all I said was that I didn't think he was the top and I found other people more likely to be that role. It is an excellent point that someone made that there are other new rogues out there and I have no reason to say that th isn't one of them. I think my opinion on TH will flesh itself out more as this day goes on. Id like to hear from all remaining players, especially players like devin who I think has been coming on strong and may have some insight into th today.

and your showing me how often th has cozies up to me has honestly shocked me.

Have we heard from Devin yet today? Id like to hear from Devin. His thoughts right now may sway my vote.

And MM, that vote port is actually a bit shocking to me. Has TH buddied up to all of myvotes like that? That's a bit crazy.

timmer wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:In the meantime, I still want to hear from timmer why he trusts TH so much.

I don't, really? I just didn't think TH was the Top, I didn't think it fit. But at this point, I know nothing. Ignore anything I've said up to this point. Other than SVS, whose role I think I know, I've got no idea about anything. I don't know who my buddy is, which is REALLY bugging me.

I feel like someone is definitely trying to help me in this game. But the clues to who I should trust are non-existent.

At this point, I feel like there are likely more New Rogues left than Old Rogues, so I tend to distrust the larger groups voting together. It makes for an unfortunate coincidence, of course, that the voting group I'm looking at happens to want me lynched. I feel like Sophie has been a bit opportunistic; she has never really come up with a single theory of her own in this game, she just sort of announces who she thinks is likely right and votes with them. I'm not a fan of that. I feel like LC and BR are sort of staying out of the ways bit, but I don't get an alignment read on that. As for the rest, I've got to put more thought into it.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:In the meantime, I still want to hear from timmer why he trusts TH so much.

I don't, really? I just didn't think TH was the Top, I didn't think it fit. But at this point, I know nothing. Ignore anything I've said up to this point. Other than SVS, whose role I think I know, I've got no idea about anything. I don't know who my buddy is, which is REALLY bugging me.

hey guys sorry ive been so busy ive had no time for the game. i feel like some of you are figuring out peoples roles and i feel out of the loop because im not following and it means i will struggle to make cases. at this point i have no idea about anyone snymore. i know i have a friend obv because they stopped the lynch but i dont know who to trust. back later.

If the host post points to the top being the new killer, my vote goes to MM, I think it's the best chance at hitting that role.

So what do people think of Grodd's kill possibly going to Zoom? To me it makes the most sense to keep the Arch Villains kill in-house, as opposed to giving another one to the New Rogues, unless Plunder is dead?

As for today's lynch, I'm still inclined to distrust MM and think that's where we will find our Top.

Turnip Head wrote:I'm not sure I like the easy pileup on DREAM. DREAM, you were singled out over someone like Soneji because there's speculation that a more recent replacement took over a killing role, since we were missing some kills before you subbed in. I think you missed that part, or you didn't respond to it, which inadvertently makes me feel better about you. I don't really like your singular focus on SVS today though. I think there's been other things going on worth discussing. Maybe you are mind controlled.

I don't think SVS is bad, I think she's more likely to not read fully or defend strongly when she's a civvie, but I do think her vote for DREAM is just as opportunistic as DREAM's vote for SVS, and this was the reason SVS gave for voting her.

SVS you still haven't elaborated on the Sophie portion of your post. I guess maybe it's because you don't feel strongly about it anymore. But I feel like she is getting a free pass. Soneji is getting a free pass too but that's a different story.

Timmer, why did you vote DREAM over one flippant comment, instead of staying on MM - who you went to some lengths to suspect for game related reasons?

I'm at work so mustbebrief, but it is because no one else was voting mm, and dreams post sounded chirpy in a way I didn't like. I will return to mm but for today I'm ok with joining the dream train.

Switching my vote to Dreams, because gurl bye, we don't tell others to get a life.

Okay, so I'm looking at today like this. We don't know how many New Rogues are left, but we do know that unless a series of people have been lying profusely, The Top is still alive.

So who is The Top? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the list of people claiming to have been mind controlled so far is rabbit, MM and BR? I feel like I've missed one. Rabbit had to vote for BF, BR had to push Roxy/Aces and couldn't go against me, and MM had to put my name in everything. Is that all correct?

So first off, we can rule out the absent players, and those who just subbed in. Honestly, if someone is deliberately never posting but sending in night actions, I quit mafia, that's just weak - so I personally rule out Soniji, Devin, Dreams here. I also rule out myself, though I know some of you may not. We can rule out llama as well.

So that leaves Bass 2, Black Rock, FZ, Long Con, MM, rabbit, Sophie, Daisy, SVS, TH.

Making someone say "Timmer" is not really Sophie's style, so I doubt it's her. Bass 2.0 wouldn't have made Black Rock go after Roxy/Aces as he has been solidly in support of Roxy, so it wouldn't be him. I don't really know FZ, so I'll need others to fill in an opinion there. TH has been supportive of me all game, so I doubt this is a TH thing. I would HOPE this hasn't been rabbit's doing; he's kind of not around and has admitted he doesn't have time for the game. To not post but to send in night actions such as these wouldn't be something he did, I think. And I still think Daisy's posts around when she thought she was going to be lynched point to her being an indy of some kind.

So I'm left with Black Rock, Long Con, MM, SVS. For reasons I can't say, I personally rule out SVS from the list. I don't know her role or anything that specific, but I do not think SVS is the one laying mind controls on. She could be bad, but not The Top, UNLESS there is a mind control I'm missing... have I missed one?

Which drops me to LC, BR and MM.

For me, it comes down to... who self-targeted versus is this LC's doing? I'm going to declare that I think it is MM. BR's stated mind control was subtle and very strategic; force her to concentrate on one set of suspicions and not another. It cries out solid manipulation. Rabbit's was more simple, but still very strategic; make a case against bf. But what was MM's? Say "Timmer" all over every post. There is nothing strategic about it, at all. It's a gag act, a silly thing to annoy people and generate some chuckles.

The "say Timmer" mind control does not fit the other two. Thus, I can only come to the conclusion that that one is false.

I'm voting MM today. Things that will potentially change my mind; if someone mentions a curse I forgot that changes the tilt of my case, or if someone can show how FZ could have done all of this, mores than MM's doing it.

That's exactly what I was getting at. I remember thinking that Grodd would need a higher movement rate to map-based kill, but I didn't even say it. For Timmer to assume I'm not Grodd just because I move one square at a time is a stretch.

So you and I thought the exact same thought but I tried to put it to use, and I'm bad for it. You know what, I've never been put under This level of constant scrutiny before, where literally everything I say is spun only in one, negative direction. You guys want me to be bad really badly, but I'm going to have to disappoint you. But this constant gang-up is exhausting and I'm sorry to say I'm done. Go ahead and vote me out. You'll see you were wrong at game's end. Between curse where people have to say my name and other curses whet people can't make cases on me, someone out there kind of made this personal and I'm done with it.

Long Con wrote:Ok, so it's not Grodd that is controlling people's minds. It it the Secret Role, who I now expose as... The Top! dun dun dunnnnn.....

I solved Grodd's role:

Gorilla Grodd (????????) – He wants Keystone and Central City all for himself and his gorilla empire. He is the Serial Killer and is immune to all mind control. Because of Grodd’s telepathic power, he will know where every player is and what they’re up to during the game.

So he's immune to mind control, but he doesn't control others. Looks like he gets a lot of map awareness, not sure what information is gained through knowing "what players are up to".

The Super Secret role (still some words missing):

The Top – He can spin…really fast. ~~~~~ ~~~~s targeted at him will be redirected to a random player. His spinning a~~~~~~es s~~e~~~ gave him the power to mind control as well. Every night, he can choose a player to act as he wishes during the next day.

So... the person Black Rock is looking for is The Top, aka the Super Secret Role, and not Grodd.

I wonder if Grodd's serial killer ability is map based? He knows where everyone is, and can come and hunt them down, maybe?

Anyways, disclaimer, any and all of my role solutions could be wrong, so it would be sensible for someone else to cross-check and verify my solutions to be more sure.

^Here is what I remember. It was Long Con who suggested Grodd could be a map-based killer.

Long Con wrote: Ok, I dig that. Let me just play Devil's Advocate here: What if Timmer was just hoping he was wrong?

Linki: Timmer, how do we know Grodd has a higher movement rate than the (I assume average) movement rate of 1? If we have confirmed that, I'm just forgetting.

Wasn't he decoded to be a map-based killer? I'd have to look back to whoever decoded it, but I assume he'd have to have a movement rate a bit higher than 1 in that case, otherwise that would be a pretty rough role.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
But I've not even mentioned the Bass 1.0 thing. I think there's too much wifom there to make an argument either way.

If you know my play style, you'll know that you COULD make an argument using Bass 1.0, that I'm NOT bad. I mean, I'm not Dom. I'll ask ANYONE in this game, have you EVER even one time in ANY game ever seen me toss a possible teammate under the bus to build my own cred, when that teammate wasn't already going under? Yes, people occasionally shake up their game, but if you think I'm bad, you must then think I've disregarded EVERY aspect of my game and thrown caution to the wind and played radically different than ever before.

For the record, if people are worried about Grodd, I'd say it wouldn't be LC, considering that at one point he referenced trying to get to Star Labs but only being able to move one step at a time and then getting shunted away. Unless that was a brilliantly subtle plant to leave in case someone called him Grodd later, I'd say there's little chance of LC being that role.

@MM, what do you mean by heavy lifting?

I can't believe Grodd is that bad at finding people on the map to kill them, he's got to be either an inactive player or dead.

And regarding what TH is saying, if any of you have ever been in btsc with me when my brain has gone into conspiracy theory mode, you'll recognize what TH is talking about. I was very excited about my Bass idea, lol.

So that was a fucked up day. I can't imagine that any curse told MP to post over 100 times and act like a crazy person, so I'm left to assume that he just decided to... do that. His role was a key connector to the Old Rogues and he chose to disregard that and play as a jester, so whatever.

For the sake of having, or trying to have, a more normal day, once the day starts can everyone please just state out loud if you think I am bad or not? It makes it very hard to even defend when I cannot even tell who actually thinks I'm bad. And if you DO think I'm bad, please explain why? Some people have done a decent job of this, but others haven't.

One more time, for my defence: while the New Rogues do not start the game with BTSC, if I was a New Rogue why on EARTH, if I had zeroed in on exactly what Bass 1.0 was doing, would I push for his lynch? Just because we didn't have BTSC yet wouldn't make him any less of a teammate, and future BTSC would naturally come, so why why WHY would I go after him like that, calling him out for exactly what he was doing? And people, THE TOP is a New Rogue! So again, other than the fact that the Top apparently keeps planting things about me into the mind controls, what else is there to point to me being him, or ANY New Rogue?

Jeez, guys, you really want me dead. Even with Alex going mental, you still almost lynched me. I know in some respects my play has been shite in this game, but dudes.... and llama, wtf?

I've got to head out, now. I can only hope that people voting for me actually think I'm their enemy. Because getting lynched simply because MP came in, monopolized the entire thread with arguments and then pulled the pity card will be a rough way to go out.

So if you guys are not thinking of this as a LMS game, your votes for me must mean you think I'm a New Rogue? You think I torpedoed my own teammate in Bass 1.0?

Nice trick, MP. Make the whole day about you, then pull the pity card and look at the lynch result. Bravo.

Holy that is a heavily split lynch poll and there are only a handful of hours left. For the record, I very well may shift my vote near the end if I feel that the person with the most votes isn't a great choice.

in fact, at least for now, I'll vote MP.

To answer a few posts all at once...

@MP, my thoughts on SVS have fluctuated considerably all game, but I believe she is a playing what I would term a "pro-civ" game. I'm not convinced that she's an Old Rogue, let's say, but I believe she and I are fighting a common cause. It's not based on info or map btsc or anything like that, it's a hunch plain and simple, a hunch tied to the continuing ambiguity of the Roxy question mark.

@FZ, yes I've got a list of people I don't think are lynch-worthy and I've been promoting that because I think we've got a considerable number of players who are safe choices today, and by safe I mean neutral-to-great lynch results, and there are some people I just do not think fit the bill.

I think, if LC thinks MP is a New Rogue, I can vote for MP. He's tilting anyway, and causing the day to be about him. I can't see any way that he is an Old Rogue or a Detective, so it's safe and he's frankly calling for it. Rabbit has also asked to be lynched, but I get more of an indy vibe from him. I could vote him, but MP seems to be making Rabbit and people like that secondary.

i don't feel great about Sophie but llama's vouch is enough that I won't pursue that idea, I don't have a case to make anyway, just that she's been coast-y.

The only other question mark I have is MM. MM could be just about any role, I've got no clue how to read those posts.

A rabbit lynch sounds like it would be at worst a neutral result. I'd like to find a New Rogue today, though. SVS, what are your thoughts on Sophie?

@MP, SVS is just about the only player in the game other than llama obv who I would say should not be Lynched. I think you are wrong about her.

Black Rock wrote:
You are looking at the frame up from a different angle than I am. If it is truly a frame up they didn't want you saved, they wanted me to turn on you. If you are not the Top guy then you should be looking at someone who wants you lynched.

If clearly people are allowed to discuss being mind controlled after the fact, as, if they weren't I'm sure MR would have stepped in by now, then wifom creeps into it. If you are specifically told not to suspect me, then the top knows you will mention it the next day. From that angle, how on Earth would it make sense for ME to do that to you? It guarantees that the next day will have MORE to do with me, not less.

Rabbit is interesting. I can remember exactly two things about him in this case. 1) that he said he was forced to vote for BF and 2) that he spent a long while sayin gLC was bad and then,,, just kind of stopped. Now, having been in some interesting places in this game, I can maybe understand how that change of heart happened, but it seems that once rabbit's LC thoughts changed that he just... stopped. Same with Daisy, she's just sort of stopped. But it kind of makes me think that a large majority of the indies have remained unscathed in this game, and that it might explain the malaise some quiet players are showing... when you don't have a horse in the race and just have to be there, some people have a hard time caring much. I have to wonder how many Old and New rogues are even left? And we haven't heard from Grodd since early on, unless one of the Bullz kills was from him?

MovingPictures07 wrote:timmer, maybe I misunderstood, but what I was referring to was the following:

Are you indeed holding onto the Old Rogue claim then?

I'm not changing anything that I've claimed at all, no. But I acknowledge that my methods today and recently were quite sloppy... it's what I get for trying to keep up with the game while I'm at work and arguing on the phone with doctors about how to treat their patients.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Finished.

????????????????? – He may spin… really fast. Night kills directed at him will be redirected at a random player. His spinning abilities somehow gave him the power to mind control as well. Every night, he may choose a player to act as he wishes during the next day.

Didn't LC decode that a few days ago?

BR, I looked back, I don't see anything from that time period that would explain your mind control, if it's true. Day 3.2 I mostly discussed BF and DH, casting an eye on both, and voted BF. I never posted at all night 3, which is when your mind control would have been sent in. So I don't see anything to gain from anyone. If it was DH, why support me after I cast suspicion on him? If it was someone else, why support me like that, unless The Top figured I was either playing a) a fellow baddie or b) playing so poorly that it made sense to keep me around.

Either way, this tells me something about the quality of my play in this game, but I assure you, it wasn't my idea. But I guess I can understand why you were thinking the way you do.

@MP, where have I pulled away from that claim?

@BR, thanks for fleshing that out, and I can sympathize on busy weekends.

So you were told to both make a case linking Roxy/Aces, AND to not suspect me? If that's true, I cannot wait for post-game to find out the strategy behind that, as it was not me.

Is there someone I was publicly supporting who Roxy and Aces were suspecting at the time? I'm going to have to read back and see, because that would be your spinning Top.

FTR, I do not believe SVS is a New Rogue, and I wouldn't recommend a lynch in that direction.

I could get behind a Sophie lynch I suppose, as she has been posting here and there but hasn't really contributed anything.

FZ seems cool. llama's obv cool. Rabbit and Long Con seem indy. I've got a beef with BR over the still absent reasons she thinks I mind controlled her.

Everyone, let me just start by saying I'm sorry for how shit I've been playing. It's been a stressful few days and I've let it make my play sloppy and cheap.

That said, MP, I think this IS a faction game, but it is NOT an LMS game. It won't ever get to be a true LMS game, i don't think. And you're right, wrapping oneself in the civvie flag is kind of pointless (and again,kind of cheap on my part... I get that way when I'm distracted, I'm well aware).

It all comes down to who is lying to the thread, and that's where my current paralysis comes from. I have lost trust in the things i thought I knew, and as such I don't know what to think.

My thoughts are going out to your niece, SVS, that sounds like a horrible time over there

Long Con wrote:... and not a lot of interest in figuring it out.

As for this part, all I can say is that, again, I'm at work and busy, but more importantly, I know when I'm getting lynched and have no way to prevent it. You'll remember your recruitment game where i got lynched TWICE as an unrecruited unaligned player. I did the same thing there... when I cannot defend, and have nothing to show in regards to who better to lynch, sometimes I just throw in the towel. It's not because I'm bad, as your game twice proved, but because I've seen too many people get frustraed and bitter and angry in these games as they get lynched, and I'm just not going to let myself get that riled up. I've said all that I can say, I've got no better leads than Bass or BR despite that being a No U,and I've got to move on with my day, you know?