The Syndicate

Also, I should have put

after my bring it, bitch. Obviously I mean no offense, timmer, lol, but jut wanted to say so in case you thought I was being rude. It's a term of endearment! Actually, also competitive spirit. You and I have a mafia relationship that goes way back. That's why I feel comfortable engaging you like that.

With that, I am out of here. Busy weekend ahead of me.

timmer wrote:Voted MP.

Guys, you should frankly disregard every post I made while out on vacation. I was never able to get enough wifi to read more than one page before I lost my connections. I was never able to get a good read on people at all. I barely knew anything. My posts, as of last night, represent me joining this game for the first time, so yes there might be some contradictory things between my posts now and the mixed up handful of posts earlier.

Note though, what MP did. He did address a single thing i said in my case against him last night. Not one thing. He went back and found my earlier posts from when he knew I wasn't in the game really and found contradictions between them and now. He NEVER directly commented on my case.

Why would you even post all of that then if you were so unsure and barely knew anything? Why say I was just being suspected for being posty? Why not just say that you were on vacation and barely knew anything?

Also, I even specifically said why I didn't have time to go through and address your case. Plus, nearly all of it is just interpretations. Now that I have responded to it, it's basically just "You're wrong." or "You're interpreting this incorrectly." What else do you actually have for me to defend against?

timmer wrote:Remember rule #1, kids.

MP is bad, I'll stake my reputation on it.

Bring it, bitch.

Sad to say you'll be losing your epic reputation over something so trivial. You also have to put "I can never read MP and refuse to crusade him as baddie with absolute certainty ever again" in your signature.

timmer wrote:Okay, Page 4 out of 19.

First off, (and this shows how out of touch I've been), Alex, my condolences on your loss, that's terrible news.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Next, that obviously being kept apart, I see Alex as having expertly used a "poor me" tone (before his bad news, to be clear, here) to bring up early deaths in past games to save his ass here. I'm more convinced with each page that he is bad, so far.

Do you realize just how often I get suspected and die in every game any more? Truly? How does my stating that make me bad? Clearly it hasn't cleared me of attention.

Also, I'll add Leamiteo to the list of seemingly civ players. Especially with posts like this:

Leamiteo wrote:And another thing on the fishiness of MP wanting conversation to stop, if he is indeed a baddie and baddies have BTSC, then he knows the other baddies that had info. Assuming this, could it be that he was wanting to see who else got the info, other than the baddies? And he was intrigued by the two different methods.
Rule #1, for the new kids, when you're a baddie and you need to defend yourself against a decent case, is to find the one little part of it that is easiest to defend and then defend ONLY that as hard as you can. Thus, trough all of Alex's posts on page 4, there is not one mention by him of how he pushes for info and then pushes for NO info. not directly. But, since a couple of players had mentioned how he seemed controlling, he posted a TON about that. A representative defensive post:

MovingPictures07 wrote:And Elo, I'm very sorry you found me as rude, but I never had any intention of coming off as such. You just had clearly not caught up by the time you posted, as you were asking for other people to share their info (or maybe you had and just disagreed with me... which is fine), and so I spoke out of urgency because I did not want to contribute to the potential outing of civvies. Regardless of what anyone thinks of my hackbrained theory... on the off chance it actually is true and at some point we lynch a player who would be outed in the off chance that it is true, it only possibly confirms everything, which only helps the baddies more than it does us.

But anyway, I apologize for that. I suppose I know better now to "control" the thread. Maybe I should have just spent hours on my Sunday studying instead and not bothering actually contributing, like other 'helpful' civvies who will last until Day 10 because they follow the crowd and don't put themselves out there.
It's all about the controlling piece, but nothing about the info/no info piece. He never mentions the flipflop.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

A sort of aside:

Snow Dog wrote:MP. I find it incredibly hard to believe that an experienced player like you would ask for people to say if they got info and then when he got answers remembered that it wasn't a good idea to admit to info after all!
I stuck my head out to assist the civvies, as did Bullz and now others ar5e told not to do the same. I feel like I've been hung out to dry to be honest.
You were, Snow. You totally were.

You are wrong, timmer. You totally are.

And finally, Rule #2 in defending yourself is to get your teammates to talk about the specifics that you want to avoid talking about specifically yourself. Let's bring up Mongoose again:

LOL, you should know I don't do this as baddie. I love being the guy to bring EVERYTHING up. I actually hate doing that.

Mongoose wrote:I know a lot of players have expressed concern at what they call MP's "flipflop," but I didn't read it like that. I think 1) some of us were uneasy about talking specifics of the information game ab initio and 2) he had a lightbulb moment when we all started putting tangible theories together and realized how dangerous it was to keep following that line of questioning.

I don't mean to sound like a politician, but for me, it's not changing your mind if you receive more information (and this can come in the form of having an epiphany based on what facts you have at your disposal).

I really don't think an MP vote today would be prudent.
Is that not a teammate? I think it is. I am very comfortable, as of page 4, in thinking that mp7 and Mongoose are Eloh's teamies.

with that, I'm heading to bed. I'll continue on tomorrow.

timmer wrote:Okay, here are thoughts from page 3 of 19. (Keep in mind this is still day 1, and no one has voted yet, from what I can see)

First, I get civ vibes, as of this point, from BDH, thellama, Snow Dog, BWT, Matahari and Hedgeowl.

Why? Care to elaborate?

Second, to me it seemed pretty clear that Snow Dog was just having some difficulty explaining himself about info, but that he and bullz were essentially saying the same thing.

Agreed.

Third, MP7. Reading through chronologically gives an interesting sense of time. When people were first confused about Snow Dog, MP got a bit excited and sort of quietly threw the idea out there that snow Dog maybe was bad and could be a lynch target. but chronologically it is easy to see that the idea of lynching Snow Dog, or even that he was lying was a non-starter and MP expertly reined himself back and over to the pro-Snow Dog side with aplomb.

Posts of note (some trimmed to keep this post as short as possible):

MovingPictures07 wrote:Either way, I want to hear more from Snow Dog and Bullzeye, if necessary, and I even more so want to hear from other players regarding whether they did or did not have information.
Sorry MP, you can't tell me the danger of requesting info hadn't occurred to you.

I didn't, actually, because I didn't consider that it would out anyone until llama proposed what would become the 6-tiered theory (which ended up being total crap).

MovingPictures07 wrote:Bullzeye, I agree entirely. I'm still a bit hesitant because I'm not sure if it's because Snow Dog just misrepresented what he was saying, but it seems it could be damning.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
I agree. Looking back at Snow Dog's posts, it's a ballsy move... but one that I think he would consider doing as a baddie. I'm very intrigued by this development.

Llama, you know Snowie well, is there anything you can think of that would clear him or is it perhaps that we misunderstood his posts and he wasn't clear enough? This wouldn't be the first time I would see Snow Dog lynched for unclear wording or for people misunderstanding what he was trying to say.

That being said, we could have come upon a scenario where Snow Dog is definitively baddie, and as such, I'm thinking maybe we should all just vote for him today and go from there.

Here MP even acknowledges that Snow Dog has struggles with English but still promotes the lynch idea heavily within the same post.

But I changed my mind.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I looked back at Snow Dog's posts and read them all in order, and it seems there is a misunderstanding regarding the word "info". I think I get it now.

I'm not so sure he's a baddie caught in a lie. He could be... but I think he's telling the truth, assuming Bullzeye is. Not sure it means both are civvie... but I hesitate.

MovingPictures07 wrote: As such, I think it would be fruitful to avoid lynching Snow Dog or Bullzeye, because if we lynched one of them and they came up King of Town and Strong Sad, we'd have a double edged sword. We could propose that certain players could be certain roles based on this information, but so could the baddies.

The very fact that this could actually be exactly what happened scares me but also is very thrilling.

I don't think I want to lynch Snow Dog or Bullzeye today.
I don't buy any of this. I think MP tried to get something going and then reversed course when no one bit.

Wrong.

Now here MP started being very "hey everyone let's be quiet about the info, everyone be quiet!" but then Eloh posted this:

Elohcin wrote:
About the info, I think the whole thing about 6 players getting info as there were 6 options would be logical if Snowy hadn't received info *before* the pole. It would be nice if everyone who had info would let us know they had it and whether they received it before or after Day 0 poll ended, or both. We could put a list together of who had info and when and what option they voted for. Thank you SnowDog for giving us what you could
MP then posted after this, big posts, replying to several people but not saying a word in reply to this. And then, afterwards, posted this to Elohcin:

MovingPictures07 wrote:One last post because I happened to see it.

Elohcin: Catch up before posting again.

That's it? You've fully come around to the logical stance that discussing info is a baddie-favouring move and Eloh wants to make freaking LISTS and all you say is... catch up? If MP is a civ here, he'd be all over Elohcin for that. Or at least say more. This reinforces the idea of them being teamies.

I honestly found her post pingy; I just was telling her to catch up because she very obviously hadn't seen my opinion; either that or she was pulling some shit. I figured the former, and I was wrong. And you very well know that if I were her baddie teammate, I'd be all over that.

And finally kudos to mata for this:

Matahari wrote:Trying to catch up-
first, happy bday Alex! My bro's bday is also the third, his daughter on the fourth, my sis in law the sixth, mine the seventh, and to make a long story longer, we have 12 bdays from mid July to mid August. All the celebrating is in my tiny apt. because someone has to be with my dad all the time. So it's her, or else I miss out on family fun. And cake.

So anyway, I'm in three games now and trying to keep up. I noticed that elohcin and mongoose were talking about the possibility of the number 6 person on the poll needing to be voted, although I don't agree that a host would ever out a player, I didn't think they were necessarily pushing it. But later mongoose posted this:

linki - MP: Yeah, I threw out something a little crazy, and then you brought it around to something more sensible. Eloh and I were just kinda thinking aloud. Maybe you or someone else would have taken that "illogical" reasoning and tweaked it or added to it to achieve something more cogent.
This also might not mean anything but I am wondering how mongoose can be sure of what elohcin meant.
I hadn't even caught this as I read it. That post DOES sound like there is a suggestion of BTSC. I'm holding still to the Mongoose as a possible baddie idea here.

Alright, timmer. My responses are purple-ish whatever that is. Though I'm not sure you'll believe me so I don't know why I even tried, especially since your case is all interpretations of my intentions (I suppose this is karma punishing me for my case against llama).

timmer wrote:okay, holy shit, Page 2 = so much words!

First off, page 2's development with Snow Dog admitting to getting some info when castle won puts a slightly different spin on the stick voters from page 1. if, as he said, he needed his option to win but didn't have to actually vote for it, then any number of voters of other options may have seen that their option was winning and just parked their votes whereever. thus, no real help from page 1.

second though, and this is the big thing I pulled from page 2, is that constant barrage of posts about theories around the number 6. MP7, in particular, posted a TON, as did Mongoose who I do not trust, and Elohcin who was bad. So did Hedgeowl and thellama but they were not so much pushing the banter as commenting on it from the side, if that makes sense. I got a distinct sense of MP7 trying to post a lot here. Now, MP7 has posted a lot all game from what i can see, but it all accelerated right at a key point. What I look for is, did someone just say something they want to hide or push off of the page? I have my games set to have 100 posts per page, but i know a lot of people have it way less, so posts disappear for them faster.

Why do you not trust Mongoose?

Here's the twopart punch that precedes Mongoose, Elohcin and MP7 going nuts about theories about the number 6:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks for the birthday wishes!!

Daisy: Are we allowed to discuss anything pertaining to the Day 0 poll results (or possible lack thereof) of which we may be aware?

MovingPictures07 wrote:All I want to say regarding the matter is that I had no information on the poll, and thus it did not factor into my decision, and I have not received any benefit at all from voting Castle. It seems, based on the fact that Daisy's only post was the answering machine one, that there is no publicly-made result of the Day 0 poll either.

Given Daisy said "those with info may not reveal what they were told", that makes me wonder. There had to be some outcome of the poll; I just have absolutely no idea what it was. I was kind of hoping voting Castle would allot me to receive something, but nothing happened.

I thus am not sure what to conclude.
Those two posts don't fit together right.

in the first one, MP seems to be asking a straight-up question, but the syntax of it suggests subtly that he got info. in the second post, after SD says yes, people can say they got info but not what, suddenly MP is crystal clear that he did not get anything. It doesn't fit right. I think MP maybe expected SD to say no, people CANNOT talk about the poll, period, and then he could sort of suggest subtly that he knew something, but suddenly, anything he said could be a misstep and he pulled back from it hard.

You're reading too much into my post or something. I did not have info on Day 0.

this is important to me, because of the three people who led the "number 6" theory talk, one is bad, the other I THINK is bad, and the third id mp7 whose posts above smell funky. Mp7 is the creator of the parchment, people. He loves making up crazy shit and manipulating a thread when he is bad.

Just because I lied my ass off in another game doesn't mean I'm doing it here. You're right, I do love doing that. But I'm merely speculating here. There's nothing nefarious about it. (Not sure what else to say regarding the matter, sorry, either you believe me or you don't.)

and a bit of a demonstration of how mongoose seems fishy as well:

Mongoose wrote:RE: The newest video (Marzipan's Answering Machine). This video shows Marzipan having 6 messages. I checked other answering machine videos, and they all start with different numbers of messages left on the answering machine. I think we need to analyze with this particular video was left for us.

I have a few theories:

* We must all make at least 6 posts today or something untoward will happen

* Up to 6 of us will be chosen to leave a message for Marzipan (although we can kind of do that in the chat already by saying "Dear Marzipan...") but maybe this will be 6 PMs that the host sends to only Marzipan.

* To show Strongsad digs Marzipan (I guess we know at least one person doesn't have a nut allergy, har har) , but he is rather incompetent about executing this.

* The (almond) cake is a lie. The video means nothing other than ambiance.

* Other?
That said, I think we should all try to make at least 6 posts today of substance. I wouldn't think they would need to be very long, but probably have some on-topic goodness in there. What do you all think?

linki - lotsa MP
really? that's filler.

I actually agree it was silly filler. I even said so,.

Also, thellama comes off as civ on this page. i like posts like this:

thellama73 wrote:
Agreed. I don't want to be seen as squashing discussion, but I find all this off the wall hypothesizing by Elohcin and Mongoose as suspicious, like they are trying to distract us from the baddie hunt.
And then back to MP7. If, we assume that a baddie would not be the first person to speak up about getting info, and we also assume that certain key roles would be obvious choices for getting info, the last thing a civ wants to do is get the guy who admitted to getting info to talk about it. At all. Like, to me, the best thing to do is leave the guy alone, otherwise you get people thinking about it and you paint a target. but instead MP7 posts this:

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
OK. I had info
Yes, an interesting development at last! Thank you for sharing.

Now you voted for Castle. Let's make a set of assumptions on your behalf. Assume that my intentions are exactly as I have laid them out to be. I do not expect you to assume them to be; mafia is about skepticism, I would be shocked if you trusted me, especially so early on. But let's assume I'm being entirely truthful. I had absolutely no information, voted for Castle, and yet nothing happened, yet I claim to be on the civvie cause. Others have said the same (thellama73 and Mongoose both seem to follow this as well; speak up, either of you, if I am wrong here).

Now, please, without discussing whether you received anything as a result of voting Castle, and I'm going to assume you voted the option that best seemed to suit your interests because that is only logical to assume, can you perhaps elucidate as to whether you believe the six options corresponded to anything regarding alignment; OR do you think my theory regarding six different players receiving a corresponding 'option' that benefited directly only them (but by extension, also the other players who share their alignment) to be a possible explanation for what occurred; OR do you think neither of those is true and we're seeing something entirely different?
This feels like MP was trying to get something out of Snow Dog that would give him a clue to his role. He's fishing.

Not true at all. I was trying to figure out what the hell the Day 0 poll was about.

I'll close this page with a comment pulling it all together. Elohcin was a Teen Girl Squad member. If I'm right about Mongoose and MP7, I think there is a good chance from page 2 that they are as well. And their first kill, on night 2, failed it seems since only a trogdor kill was in the night post. Wild theory time: they tried to kill snow dog but it failed because smart people realized the heavy chance that he is a civ.

timmer wrote:Christ, just an addendum. I'm frantically trying to reread and catch up in two games, and I'm getting them a bit crossed. I've got Mongoose penciled in as a baddie in the OTHER game I'm in, not this one. Mainly, from page 2, I get the sense of MP7 being bad, with Mongoose a possible baddie as well, but MP7 is much more the dominant figure there. my perception of Mongoose was getting coloured by my opinion from the other game. I stand by what I wrote, though, I think Mongoose could be bad here, but MP7 is more sure (so far, this is after all only page 2 of 19)

Could you consider that the ties you are making between Mongoose and myself to be incorrect? Also, a question for you: If Mongoose is civ, does that change your evaluation of me or not?

timmer, first off, I said I didn't have TIME to respond to your case. I barely had enough time to even post what I did this morning, and even then I left later than I wanted to (but still arrived in time). I said I would respond to it, assuming I lived. So I will do that shortly in its own post.

But first, other things.

RIP Lizzy. That sucks majorly.

I'm not sure it necessarily exonerates AP though. But I'm not sure on him at all regardless.

Matt F wrote:MP, I've played with Dom quite a few times, and though I'm not positive, I think he's civvie (of course, I hope Dom doesn't turn around on me and say "Whut?!" since he questioned Bullz after Bullz said the same thing, but there it is).

Is there a reason other then him suspecting you, that you think he's mafia?

Just seems weird that you think Dom and Timmer are baddie partners, just cuz they both suspect you? Is there more to it then that, am I missing something?

Anyways, I'm tired, gotsta go to bed. Just a note, peeps, tomorrow's Friday, and as always, I work all weekend from Friday night to Sunday afternoon, so feel free to kill me sometime around then, A Person's team!

Linki - Snowdog, after our Smile War earlier, I am now thinking you are telling the truth...about not being a liar.

I actually am not too sure about Dom being civvie or baddie, but I am feeling timmer still is. I was definitely caught in the heat of the moment and totally expected a showdown between me and timmer today, not at all what the votes ended up being. So I have cooled off some. I am trying to consider that either or both could be civvie... but I don't know. Dom can be hard to read. timmer's behavior still really bothers me.

juliets wrote:MP, I'm not trying to get you lynched today (I'm leaning toward DP or Lizzie) but I couldnt help but notice this:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Please don't be fooled by timmer's "case"; I do these ALL the time when I'm baddie. I can sniff out a manufactured one and this one feels very manufactured to me.
Isn't this exactly what you did in the case of llama and those of us you associated to llama? You admitted your case on llama was basically bs (I don't have the quote at hand but will go back through all your posts to find it if you don't remember saying it). It it also doesn't help that you decided on voting timmer after he said you were suspicious. It seems like a switcheroo.

Despite all this I'm going to hang on to the fact that you reversed yourself on llama and not vote for you at this point. As you said, your case had no merit and there was no reason to continue. I give you kudos on that. I don't think you need to say anymore about Matt regarding this issue.

So if you have time I'd like to know what you think about my first two items.

I didn't manufacture a fake case against llama; it was what I sincerely believed. I realize timmer could be a civvie and that is what he sincerely believes, so I am trying to take that into consideration, but you have to imagine how I felt reading all of that when I waltzed in the thread this morning and was in a rush to make my vote decision and respond to all of the accusations. It very much felt like the entire tide of the thread was soon to be against me.

That said, I didn't build a case on llama quite like timmer is building on me. I didn't do my fancy old pulling quotes and all of that stuff. But yes, I did build a case against llama, and I did it out of... I don't know, shortsidedness, or dare I say it, rash stupidity. I'll be the first to admit that.

It is possible timmer is just very wrong about me, but I am not so sure. What bugged me so much about it was how timmer had such a turnaround and as such it felt especially fake to me. I suppose it helps make it feel fake considering that I know it all to be incorrect as well.

Also, it is NOT a switcheroo. Lest you forget, I actually discussed timmer with llama before timmer even came back from vacation. I said he seemed suspicious due to his most recent vote for llama, but that I was holding final judgment to see what he would post. I said that specifically because I had a feeling he might come in the thread and try to railroad me, but I didn't want to say that at the time as it would have defeated the purpose of my speculation. I needed to see what he'd do.

Then he came in the thread and gunned against me HARD. And Devin was killed last night. Just cannot be a coincidence in my mind.

Captain Bunny Killer wrote:Ok, I still had to skip over 4 pages, but I think I got the gist of the debates.
As llama so nicely summarized, I am probably nowhere near the most insightful player (no offense taken). Please don't discount me though on the basis of my low vision. Honestly, I just have had little time, becuase I just moved. I'm sore, tired, and getting used to renting a room in someone else's house (awkward and time-consuming). I'm hoping I can be more regular and hang on until I can be more useful.

On that note, here's a summary of my thoughts:
Part of the reason I may be less useful is that I am too overwhelmed to present exact evidence from quoting posts, so this will be general.
I may be as dumb as a brick mafia-wise, but I still cannot get over the whole llama/MP thing. One or both of them is bad. So to the couple of you who think you're alone, you're not. They've just exhausted the conversation so much that it feels ridiculous to contiinue... which is obviously to their advantage and makes looking at everyone else seem less suspicious. And yes, I do find the sudden cease fire too convenient, like others have suggested. Given the possibility that only one is bad, it looks worse for MP, because llama seemed clueless when Matt F tried to confirm whatever guess he made. Of course, if llama was acting clueless but was really playing along, MP could really be just fooled. Either way, something underhanded was going on there on someone's part. It may be way too obvious a move for a baddie, but this also doesn't rule out Matt F playing along with someone to be the supposedly mistaken suggester again.

Anyway, my next suggestions are much less obvious and fall into the potential baddie-side-kick categories. But again, I would have to dig up more exact evidence to make these cases sure in my mind. I felt a little suspicious of Juliets for a long time, but I put it on hold and the evidence is stale (I would have to look back). And, possibly since I just am not good a letting go of an idea, I still withhold exoneration from Mongoose. Basically, after the early wacky theories (which mean nothing on their own) and the apparent jump to blanket immunity for a bunch of poeple listed on the animal sanctuary, I just still keep my eye on her. Like I said, I guess I just don't let go.

Sorry if I'm not more helpful (although, I have to admit that all the dismissing of the kinds of things that I was affirming and the saying that I'm not helpful only adds to my suspicion of said llama and others...).

Oh, and, all that being explained, I am going to continue with my lines of thinking this whole game and vote for MP.

You're wrong. I am civvie and I believe llama is also a civvie.

Did you read my four posts I posted before I thought I might die? If not, it's OK, just be sure to read those.

Matt F wrote:
Mongoose wrote:
Matt F wrote:

RIP Lizzy, it is apparent to me I should just stop talking in this game. Thus far, my only real contribution in this game has been Day 1, when I got lucky voting Elo.

I've tried real hard to be helpful, but that isn't happening.

Just a note, btw, before I said I had a role pegged for Devin. I thought he was King of Town. I can't know for sure, but since King of Town eats an object each night, I figured that meant he got a different power each night. Devin said he rezzed Bullz, and at one point, cleared Snowdog of any wrongdoing, saying he was civvie. Because of this, I figured Devin got a rez power and Devin got a rolecheck power on different nights as King of Town.

But, now I see I was wrong on that too.

linki Llama - He is wrong about me too but just doesn't know it yet.
Derp.
Let's chat about this together -- I think you are right that Lizzy could have had a rez power one night. However, I am not sure poor Dev is exonerated yet. We know he isn't a Blue Laser (since he was killed by them), but it doesn't mean he wasn't a Teen Girl.

And Dev could have been falsely insinuating his roles to prove his civvyness. I think you are probably on the right track with a lot of this, but we should be careful about assuming too much or taking statements as facts when they may not be.
I'm curious as to what role MP had Devin pegged for. And Llama, didn't you believe Devin was civvie?

Goose, is it possible Lizzy also had a rolecheck and checked DP?

DERP I'M GONNA STOP RIGHT THERE

I'm like a dog with a bone, with the tunnel vision, and I just said I was going to stop with theories. I dunno.

I do/did not have Devin pegged as King of Town, for the record. It actually surprised me to read that you did, but I suppose it makes sense how you came to that conclusion. I will not out Devin, but I'm pretty sure the role I have/had him pegged as is correct.

Now to respond to timmer...

Linki with Dom: You're wrong, that's why you should NOT continue voting for me. The fact that you refuse to even consider you're wrong is continually bothersome. I've been in defensive mode ALL GAME and you still have not even explained why other than just that I'm apparently NO U'ing and whatever. You also never responded to my questions in an earlier post asking you how your assessment was fair.

If I do die, remember to look back at my posts and thoughts. Hopefully they will be of help to you. Keep an eye on those who voted for me and why they did so. Some might be misguided civvies, but some are certain to be baddies. I really hope this won't be the case because I feel I need to live longer to be of more help. But this will be my last post if I do die. I have to go now. Please try to consider every angle to everything and make up your own minds. And I want to say sorry to llama for suspecting you and to others if you feel as though I've guided you in a wrong direction. I've tried my best.

I just request that you PLEASE read all of my last few posts before making a vote. Thank you.

Sigh. This is a terrible spot to be in, truly. I'd rather vote for timmer, but I am tempted to give him another day because, if I somehow do live, I want to be able to address his points in full and I just can't do that right now because I have to leave to finish getting ready right NOW. And on the off chance he is somehow actually a civvie, I wouldn't want to condemn him so quickly. But I very, very strongly think he is not. I really think this is a baddie push against me.

I was going to vote Lizzy because before timmer's "case" against me, it seems likely for her to be a baddie (even though Trogdor seems less likely) and because I'm really afraid of spreading the vote today especially because I can't defend myself. Her voting record is bad and it could shed some light on AP as well.

But.... you know, what. I want to expose this shit as the manufactured BS it is. Guys, please join me in voting for timmer. I promise you there's a strong chance he will come up as baddie after all of this. I know for a fact that baddies must have been planning this in their BTSC, and seeing as Dom's push couldn't just quite get me there, they brought out the big guns. I'd be willing to bet on it.

I have to vote for whomever I think is most suspicious, and right now that is timmer. I can't give a baddie the BOTD if I really think they're baddie more than someone else, even though I'd rather more safely try to ensure my life... if I die, it is what it is, I guess, though it would be a huge loss.

I am voting timmer.

Here's why:

- He defended llama multiple times (look at his posts), then pops in and votes him yesterday.
- He defended me twice and then now manufactures this fake case against me.

I can't see how a civvie timmer would ever do this. I just can't see it. It's a last ditch effort to get me lynched and then say thereafter, "Oh, well, I guess I was wrong!!!" Which if I WAS a baddie, I would have done to llama. Trust me. If I was a baddie, I would have played totally different here. Don't let ANYONE convince you otherwise. This is so not my baddie game it's not even funny.

I really want to vote for timmer now, but I'm afraid of spreading the vote, especially now with this push against me and because I specifically won't be around to vote later or defend myself any further. I do feel more strongly about timmer than Lizzy though... and I have to finish getting ready really soon.

Please, everyone, if you have any doubt whatsoever about me, DON'T vote for me. It will be another nail in the coffin for the civvies. Just read my posts and make your own minds up. If I do die, I have to hand it to timmer, I actually thought for a bit there that I might not get lynched today, but apparently I'm just too sweet of a target to pass up.

I don't have the time right now to address every single quote that timmer pulls up, unfortunately, but they're all interpretations of my actions, and let's all remember where those can get us. They're all wrong. Every single thing I've posted has been completely my honest thoughts.

Please consider why I could have possibly made a turaround on llama. Matt F was able to figure it out because it affected both of us, but it can be discerned. Please consider why I feel the way I do about Devin, how I declared he was likely a civvie, and then he was subsequently killed. Think specifically about what he was hinting at. He was not lying. He knew he was going to survive a kill on a particular night. Even he said it. So what does that mean? Lest we forget, Elo, the only 100% baddie protector, is dead. Don't forget what Devin said about me. He was 95% sure I was civvie and we know each other really well. Go back and read why he said that. He was totally spot on. I've had such an insanely hectic two weeks and there's no way I could have manufactured all of my actions to be fake and that I seemed to be a frustrated civvie. He was right. Then he, my biggest defender, died. The baddies couldn't get me lynched before but now they're trying one last big push, and I suspect it's because they've figured me out. At least one civvie should be able to figure all of this out. Everyone should, in theory. I've laid all of my intentions completely out there. Each of my actions has a civvie explanation.

If you don't believe me, I don't know what else to say, other than I'll be disappointed if I come home to find that I'm dead, but it is what it is. If that's what it takes for other civvies to realize how the baddies have been sitting back this game and now are trying to take control, then so be it. I'd rather it not be me to have to prove that, but if it has to be, then vote for me.

timmer, I am not bad. That said, I appreciate the case you built, but you're either a baddie trying to get me lynched because you have discerned my role or you are very misguided. Just because I've pulled crazy shit as a baddie before doesn't mean I'm a baddie in EVERY game, which is what players tend to think anymore.

However, I'm pretty sure you're a baddie now.

Go on, everyone, if you think I am most worthy of dying, vote for me. It will be Hedgeowl all over again. But FIRST, please read this post.

This is why I was refraining from saying anything about timmer, llama, until I saw what he said. I had a feeling that if he is indeed baddie, he'd try the same type of shit he tried against you yesterday where he defended you and then voted for you out of nowhere. Now let's examine timmer's earlier mentions of me, shall we?

timmer wrote:voted borok. I think llama seems ok and mp is getting targeted for being posty. devins posts sem weird a bit but I can remenver other ganes where I voted him for tgat and he was civ. I stuck with borok because sonethibg about hus oosts doesn't feel right to me. will be on the road today.

This is Day 2. Timmer says something about me. He says I am getting targeted for being posty.

timmer wrote:a bit of good wifi finally...

some comments about recent oosts whike this kasts...

I think bdh is wrong about mp. I don't really know bdh or his game byt mp is always this takkative imo. I'm not sure what vdh is seeing is vad.

more than that I'm now confkicted abiut devon. he seems to have gone from a lynch target to being so goofy that now ge isn't? or am I misreading? I have fekt that this is normsl devon chattiness/goofiness byt now that people aeent looking his way as much I'm paradoxically tirn. will hope this gets through.

This is Day 3. He mentions me again and says he thinks BDH is wrong about me. Apparently I am always this talkative. Yet timmer doesn't say anything like that in his manufactured case, does he? He even says "I'm not sure what BDH is seeing is bad". Yet all of a sudden I'm this big baddie bad guy?

Guys, don't be fooled by this. Dom and timmer are trying to get me lynched. Look at the way Dom voted for me ALREADY and that his words clearly make no sense:

Dom wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Dom, and anyone else, I am NOT bad. You're trying to get a civvie lynched. No one gains from my lynch but any of the baddies. If you really are a civvie, Dom, remain open-minded and consider for two seconds that I dropped the case on llama because I realized it was falling apart and was a bunch of crap that didn't stand up. If my gut was wrong, the whole thing fell apart. I didn't have a light bulb moment until Matt F pointed something out. Go back and re-read my posts.
If MP's going to play semantics, then so am I...

What exactly do you mean by "you're trying to get a civvie lynched"? I'm not. I'm trying to lynch a baddie and I'd like to discuss you... but apparently, any talk of you is trying to get a civvie lynched.
Interesting how you're okay with bringing anyone else up for talks, but yourself. And when you start taking any amount of votes, you flip out and start becoming overdefensive, and you clearly did the same thing when I brought up this about you.

MP, maybe it's because I'm having a hard time in this game, but me wanting to discuss you, makes me want to "lynch a civvie"
Sorry I don't buy everything you say at face value.

Snow Dog wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Anyone find it interesting that perhaps my biggest defender, Devin, who is largely believed to be civvie (for good reason, if you don't believe me, re-read his posts), was killed last night, and NOW there's this huge movement against me?

Think about it.
If you are civ why are you pinged by my "defending" you.....if that was what it was. It wasn't but whatever.
But you lied....

MovingPictures07 wrote:*MP asks for me to tell him why I suspect him
Because anytime anyone brings you up, you use a combination of guilt and no u to combat it. You dismiss anything against you and just say that "you're trying to lynch a civ". You pick a specific part of the case, in my case that you dropped llama (for reasons no one but you and Matt can know), and explain it away. You ignore the rest and act like everyone is unfairly attacking you. Then, you suggest we look at pretty much anyone but you. But anyone who wants to look at you is trying to lynch a civv.

I never said I wanted to lynch you. I said I wanted to talk about you. I said I found you fishy. I've never voted for you.

But I have to vote now. And I'm voting for you. I am expressing explicit interest in Snow Dog and Lizzy, however.

He never said he wanted to lynch me... yet he VOTES for me? And he expresses explicit interest in both of them but not me?

He never even addresses why I'm bad... still. Why should he though? That's what timmer's job is for. I'm becoming more and more convinced that there's this strong baddie push to get me lynched, and then when I'm lynched, everyone will say, Oh, well, it made sense, MP could have been bad.

NO. I cannot be bad. Everything I've done in this game I've done with a civvie mindset because I have one, and for the civvies' best interests because they are what I have. Please don't be fooled by timmer's "case"; I do these ALL the time when I'm baddie. I can sniff out a manufactured one and this one feels very manufactured to me. I really can't say with 100% confidence that timmer is baddie, but this strategic move was enough to convince me that either I'm a threat and the baddies want me gone, I'm an easy target and they are feeling threatened, or they have figured out my role and want it gone. I suppose it could make sense to gleam my role based on some of my actions, namely my turnaround from llama. I didn't want to even say anything about it, but it seems to me someone has figured out some possibility for me to be a huge threat, otherwise there wouldn't be this huge push against me.

I welcome discussion of all players, even myself, Dom. But all the discussion of me has really just been how crafty of a baddie I am and what an awesome time I did in other games. So that means I'm being just as crafty here? Why? I'm not. I have NO idea of Mongoose and had none about Elo. Everyone knows that if I was on a baddie team with Elo, I would have not hesitated to have thrown her under the bus. As long as we're talking about other games since timmer seems intent on bringing that into part of his case, I always feel much more comfortable throwing suspicion onto my teammates in some manner than I do not mentioning them or defending them.

Also, Dom, you never brought up specific points against me that I can actually defend against. You just keep saying things like I'm using guilt and NO U. Totally untrue. Llama still brings me up as suspicious yet I clearly don't find him suspicious, do I? Others are the same way. I only find players who I believe to be twisting my words to be suspicious, and ONLY for that reason. My intentions should be clear.

I look forward to seeing what timmer and any other players have to contribute. I have to be awake at 4AM tomorrow so that I can drive with some co-workers up to Columbus for an all-day conference, so it's going to be a long day. For that reason, I'm going to have to vote before I leave (won't have my work laptop or anything, and even if I did, I'm sure I'd be too busy), but I decided I'm going to wait until the morning to pop in here because I want to see what other discussion takes place first, and I want to mull over the options. I still don't feel there's that particularly strong of an option swaying me strongly towards any one or even two players over others...

AP, one question for you though. Consider all the different possibilities as to how llama survived the lynch. Do you truly believe it to be in the civvies' best interest to give llama the most votes?

Snow Dog wrote:I guess i should have let you answer for yourself MP. I was just trying to move the discussion along and I thought I had given the correct answer. I didn't actually check .
Whatever I did it doesn't make me bad anyway. What would I have gained? I thought I was just giving info that was already out there. The fact I was wrong and so easily proved to be wrong is the result of human frailty.

Don't worry about it, Snowie. I am far from crusading you as baddie, just keeping an eye on you is all.

Vompatti wrote:I didn't read the above posts but all I can say is poealassllel idodnodntdno ndniniwnovnvntone ZLZoiziziiiyi ii ; i idnid nd in n kwn tihin k I ccldl dllca cacrrr rrr ror nowithotu ehahhrer :%/*:/.'755555 ö'ä:*(

Best post in a mafia game ever?

Alright, NOW I have to stop procrastinating. I'll be back later tonight to possibly vote (it's either tonight or at like 5:00AM tomorrow, ugh).

Nice timing! Especially considering I just mentioned both of you specifically. Lol. I should go study, but I'll do that after I respond to both of you.

I'm starting to wonder if there is something to the AP case. I don't know. I still keep reading his posts as regular old Matt/AP. I honestly can't tell one way or the other. You know him just as well as I do, BWT; what's the thing that most seals it for you?

DP could definitely be Trogdor, that's true. It might even be more likely than Lizzy. I've seen DP be this quiet and every type of alignment though, so that alone can be difficult to tell.

Mongoose, what do you think about Lizzy being a baddie instead of Trogdor? I'm not totally sold on the case either, and I agree it would be silly, but I could see Lizzy doing it, and the fact that Trogdor didn't kill last night only leaves us with a few possibilities (as I went over earlier). I think what makes Lizzy look bad is that I could honestly see her being on either baddie team OR Trogdor. I'm not sold on that, but it seems likely nonetheless based on her behavior and voting record.

I have to admit I'm still leery on BDH as well. Borok is climbing up my suspicion ladder but I won't vote for him today (unless it's out of self-defense, but I doubt that scenario). I definitely want to hear from timmer.

What did you think of llama's evaluation of Gleam?

And no worries about not being around!

OH MY GOD THE LINKITIS!

I look forward to hearing what BWT is currently thinking as well.

Crap, Snow Dog, I totally forgot to respond to your post. Sorry. I was reminded when I saw Matt F's posts asking my opinion of you.

Also, regarding llama, it makes no sense. I already went over how there were MANY options to explain why llama survived that lynch. Most are not nefarious, a fact I was stupid enough to ignore while I was continuing to run with my suspicion, but later realized.

Interesting responses from Lizzy. Not out of character. I do think she could be Trogdor or a baddie, frankly.

Snow Dog wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Anyone find it interesting that perhaps my biggest defender, Devin, who is largely believed to be civvie (for good reason, if you don't believe me, re-read his posts), was killed last night, and NOW there's this huge movement against me?

Think about it.
If you are civ why are you pinged by my "defending" you.....if that was what it was. It wasn't but whatever.

I suppose the way you went about it set off my alarm bells, as if you were stepping in and trying to appease me, in a false sort of way. It's like keep your friends close and your enemies closer, if that makes sense. Also, I even admitted in thread that I should have thrown off to BDH; I didn't have to save myself. It pinged me in the same way Mongoose's post pinged me last day period when I thought she was just trying to tell me exactly what I wanted to hear.

Speaking of Mongoose, I look forward to her current thoughts.

Matt F wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Why are you feeling less certain of me, any reason?
Well, let me ask you...

What are your thoughts on Snowdog? I am pinged out of my mind based on his defense of you, and the only reason I let my susp of him die earlier, is because Devin claimed in the thread that "Yes, Snowdog is Civ " . Considering you believe Devin to be civ, and Llama believed Devin to be civ, and even I, myself, had a certain civ role for him if true...I took Devin at his word about Snowdog.

Then I think about way early in the game. You asking about info, Snowdog and Bullz saying "yup i got info", you saying "you guys must be civvie!".

Then I think about Bullz being rezzed. Apparently by Devin. And why? I dunno, no offense Bullz you're my bro from another mo, but I had no read on you before you died, I don't think anyone did really (did anyone?)...in fact, there was even a conversation about the poem player thinking you were bad...then presto chango Bullz was rezzed.

So here we are, all these names keep coming around together in different combinations...Bullz, Snowdog, Devin, MP.

Let me ask you, were you 100% certain that Devin was civvie? You can say without going into details if you were certain...were you?

Linki - I listened to her defense, Vomps, and didn't buy it personally. Speaking of which, gotta go quote another MP post about Lizzy right now...

As I've said previously, I will eat a friggin' hat if Devin was not a civvie. I am sure he was. I have no reason not to believe him; his behavior indicated civvieness to me and I know him quite well. The bandwagon against him and especially his subsequent untimely death absolutely confirmed it to me.

Now, as to why he supposedly rezzed Bullzeye, I keep wondering about that myself. It's the only thing about Devin's behavior that I haven't been able to figure out yet. It doesn't shake my confidence in my assessment though.

I have my eye on Bullzeye, but he hasn't given me too much of a reason to think he's baddie yet. He is a fantastic player all around though, so it's tough to tell. I have to say I had a pretty civvie read on him before he died; since then, it's more up in the air, but still probably leaning civvie.

As to Snow Dog, I really don't know. Snow Dog is one of those few players I have an extremely hard time reading (up there with BWT and S~V~S for me IMO) where they always read just "Snow Dog" (or just "BWT") to me. The difference between Snow Dog and BWT and S~V~S is that for some reason I always seem to be reading BWT and S~V~S as baddies and Snow Dog as a civvie. A few posts/votes Snow Dog has made have pinged me, and I keep going back and forth with him. I did think Snow Dog was civvie at the time he gave out info, you're correct, but my entire assessment of all of that has changed after I found out the Day 0 poll was an alignment-driven poll, thus making my early confidence in Snow Dog and Bullz's alignments moot.

In summary, I really have absolutely no idea on Snow Dog. I'm not sure I've been given much reason to distrust him yet, that said, and I don't think I'd feel comfortable voting for him today.

But he's hoodwinked me before and I've accidentally lynched him when he was civvie before, so it makes me a bit cautious in my reads one way or the other.

thellama73 wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: You say you're feeling most strongly about Gleam. Take a look at the player list; are there any names that pop out to you as you having absolutely no read on them one way or the other and they haven't really been discussed?
Borrokuei and Leamiteo spring to mind. I haven't played with them before and I can't pronounce their names. I haven't too much discusion from/about them and I don't have any sense of their style or personality. DP has been flying under my radar this game too.

I've played with borrokuei and his style was pretty similar before. I've never played with Leamiteo but it seems pretty indicative of what interaction I have had with her. So nothing out of the ordinary for either of them.

However, they both could be baddies for all I know. Borrokuei has been really blendy, but I'm not sure if that means he has teammates or not. I do agree with Matt F that it's strange he keeps latching onto the general tide of the thread. I don't like that. Leamiteo is right in the category of I just have no idea. I'd guess Borrokuei to be bad before Leamiteo, but thanks for bringing both of them up. I'll be curious to see if anyone else has a read on either of these players (who hasn't said so already).

And I agree, DP is flying waaaaaaay low. Too much for my taste. I mean, I realize this game has been absolutely INSANE, but still, it's Day 4 now. At least a post containing at least something would be nice.

Crap, well, I have to go. Why didn't more people talk with me?? Oh well. Be back after work or something.

Gleam, I see you're reading! What are all of your current thoughts/evaluations and response(s) to what llama brought up? Very curious to see them! Thanks!

A Person wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I was honestly hoping for more discussion by the time lunch rolled around... I really want to hear from players regarding others; instead I got a bunch of posts from Dom saying how baddie I am because I'm apparently suspecting everyone and then a few other players (such as bea) just agreeing with it.

Disappointing.

I can't see what this is at work! Blah.

But I'll see it when I get home.

Anyway, what do you think of Gleam, AP?

thellama73 wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: How do you feel about timmer? I feel he might be up there as well. His vote for you yesterday sits really badly with me.
Timmer has given us pretty much zero to go on, but I agree about the vote. He kept saying I felt civvie, then turned around and voted for me AFTER you and Matt changed your minds. I think it was likely a last ditch effort to take me out, with him realizing that he may not get another chance.

I agree completely.

Let's just say there's one other reason I'm keeping an eye on timmer. I want to see what his current thoughts are first before I condemn him further (or not). He can be a powerful civvie, and I realize he's currently out of town (I believe), and other than his very pingy vote yesterday I have nothing else from him to make me feel he's baddie, so I don't think he'll be receiving my vote.

You say you're feeling most strongly about Gleam. Take a look at the player list; are there any names that pop out to you as you having absolutely no read on them one way or the other and they haven't really been discussed?

I'm itching for discussion, if you couldn't tell. Nothing better to do during lunch.

I was honestly hoping for more discussion by the time lunch rolled around... I really want to hear from players regarding others; instead I got a bunch of posts from Dom saying how baddie I am because I'm apparently suspecting everyone and then a few other players (such as bea) just agreeing with it.

Disappointing.

Mata, what are you currently thinking?

Does anyone who seriously thinks I am baddie want to summarize how my behavior in this game makes me baddie? Even if you have touched it somehow in your posts, I clearly want to see this so I can actually defend against something other than interpretation of intentions.

BDH, Thanks for those posts. Do you have any particular reads on any of these people or not?

JC, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I'm trying to understand a scenario where he is simply just misreading my intentions (without nefarious reasons).

Also, I don't know who any of the baddies are right now. I do suspect BDH, I'm starting to wonder about Lizzy and a few others, but I feel like I'm still (and we in general, as a thread) are shooting in the dark right now, because llama and I were major suspects yesterday (both not bad), Hedgeowl was obviously not bad, no idea on AP, and no idea on Vomps (but he only had 2 votes). I feel like there are like 20 players I just don't know whether they're baddie or what the deal is -- and that's just about everyone. After feeling my llama case fall apart, I'm trying to put out as many feelers as possible and get onto something concrete with at least someone, but I don't feel there is any particularly very strong convincing argument for anyone being a baddie right now. I'm sort of lost, really.

Llama, thanks for your thoughts on Mata and SVS, I'll keep those in mind.

Matt F, I've thought more about your theory. The only scenarios in which Trogdor did not send in his PM last night could be:
- His target was randomized within his selected hut to be the Blue Laser that survives all NKs.
- Trogdor was blocked.

Other than that, I think it seems sound to conclude Trogdor missed his PM.

Even considering there are those two other possibilities, I do think Lizzy's behavior seems far from a helpful civvie. I know Vomps loves having her around, and I do too, but we need to obviously scope out all the baddies, so regardless I think she needs to be examined.

Her voting record is pretty bad; she voted for me and llama the last two days, and then you pointed out the fact that she so clearly believed DP to be Trogdor and yet didn't vote for him... and she can't seem to articulate why llama is bad.

bea wrote:
Dom wrote:
Mongoose wrote:
Dom wrote: But they both announced that EXTREMELY early. I feel like they set things up. Maybe not together, but I feel like they're trying to control teh thread into chaos.
Their cease-fire was really weird, especially from MP's end. But I wanted to give them both a little BOTD because I felt MP stumbled onto something about Llama that I 1) do not know and 2) still can't figure out and 3) MP can't tell us without rule breaking or rule skirting.

Do you think it's more than that, Dom?
Moreso with MP than with Llama. i feel like MP is abandonning a case because no one is buying the product anymore... and he doesn't want to be accused of being single minded and such.

i find MP's "yeah let's look everywhere else but where we were because that was at ME" to be weird.
this feels like a fair point as well.

How is this a fair point, bea? Or even Dom for that matter?

Llama had 4 votes yesterday and several players have still voiced they could see him being baddie. How is it I dropped it because no one was buying the product?

Also, lest I remind you, I was calling out STOP VOTING LLAMA yesterday and still votes were rolling in for him (from CBK, timmer, etc.). If I hadn't changed my mind about llama, I'm sure he could have easily been lynched yesterday. The only reason some players reconsidered was because of my 360 regarding him. I could have just as easily railroaded him and gotten him lynched, but considering Matt F made me realize how unreasonable I was being and that I was missing out on another perspective, I took a step back and realized my very possible error.

Dom wrote:
Matt F wrote:I dunno about MP (sorry MP), but I'm fairly certain Llama is civvie.

Unless, to quote what MP has said himself about this very situation..."I'm being played right now."

But the only way I'm being played is if they're on the same team, and I don't see them going after each other the way they have if they were on the same team.
I think MP is trying to imply that unless Llama is playing a very good baddie game, he's likely civv....

Although, I find this interesting because MP dropped Llama in such a contrived way... as if he had given up because no one was biting anymore.... and then he suggested that we look at quiet players and lizzy and snow dog and vomps (I think? Don't quote me on that). So.. basically anyone who isn't him. Basically, MP wants us all to forget that he ever brought up Llama....

I suggested we look at players who were not being given any attention, Dom, and I suggested that we look at them, NOT suspect them. Now it seems like you are either twisting my words or just misunderstanding me.

I am not even looking at Snow Dog, Vomps, or any of the quiet players in particular. See above in response to JC. I'm trying to figure out which options make sense and see if anyone seems most worthy of a vote... there are a lot of players who haven't been discussed and I am trying to discern everyone's intentions.

I'm not telling anyone to forget I brought up llama. I did bring him up. I no longer believe him to be bad. I fucked up. I'm allowed to have errors in judgment; I can't be right all the time. I took a step back, re-evaluated given new information and seeing my case get holes poked in it, and realized I was being unfair to llama. That's all.

If you think he is bad or that I am, by all means. But you're grasping at straws to try to make my intentions seem nefarious; I'm not sure if it's because you truly believe it or if you're trying to get me lynched.

Matt F wrote:
Dom wrote:
Matt F wrote:I dunno about MP (sorry MP), but I'm fairly certain Llama is civvie.

Unless, to quote what MP has said himself about this very situation..."I'm being played right now."

But the only way I'm being played is if they're on the same team, and I don't see them going after each other the way they have if they were on the same team.
I think MP is trying to imply that unless Llama is playing a very good baddie game, he's likely civv....

Although, I find this interesting because MP dropped Llama in such a contrived way... as if he had given up because no one was biting anymore.... and then he suggested that we look at quiet players and lizzy and snow dog and vomps (I think? Don't quote me on that). So.. basically anyone who isn't him. Basically, MP wants us all to forget that he ever brought up Llama....
I figured he dropped Llama because I pretty much pointed Llama out to him and said "Civ dude. See it? See it yet? Almost there...there ya go!" I know this doesn't help you, or anyone else for that matter, but just sayin'. Only MP could see what I was seeing, and I'm not trying to be cryptic, just the truth.

However, I would agree that he has named nearly everyone in the thread as a possible suspicion of his, but I've never seen that as a baddie trait. So many times, I have suspected nearly everyone in the thread of being a baddie myself, just cuz I didn't know what the heck was going on, in other games. This game too, as a matter of fact. Didn't I suspect you once this game?

On that note, and no offense MP, YOU'RE MY BOY BLUE, I am feeling more "I dunno" when it comes to MP, compared to a few days ago, when I thought he was most likely civvie.

Linki - Daisy, you went green for me! No more disappearing, honest!

Bingo.

Also, I am totally lost; I'm completely on my own this game, so right now I'm feeling lost and trying to feel everything out.

Why are you feeling less certain of me, any reason?

Vompatti wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:[--] Devin, who is largely believed to be civvie [--]

How is this funny? There was a stream of posts after his death that indicated such.

Obviously you didn't read his posts.

Devin was a civvie. I know him well. I very, very highly doubt he wasn't, especially given all of his actions and the timing of his death. I'd sig bet on it.

Do you actually want to contribute some thoughts instead? If so, what are they?

thellama73 wrote:Did anybody think my analysis of Gleam mightt be onto something? I feel like I am leaning that way for my vote today.

I do, yes. I personally feel Gleam is a viable candidate for my vote today. At the moment.. if I had to vote literally right now, I'd probably go Lizzy, Gleam, or BDH. But I'm still trying to figure everything out and I want more discussion. I could end up going a different way.

How do you feel about timmer? I feel he might be up there as well. His vote for you yesterday sits really badly with me.

Let me also remind all of you that I am throwing out names to be DISCUSSED. I even specifically stated I actually somewhat trust some of these players, but others I don't necessarily. They are NOT my list of suspicions.

I want to see what players say about each other because you want to know the truth? I honestly have no fucking idea who the baddies are right now. I don't.

And now I REALLY have to go. Be back at lunch.

Anyone find it interesting that perhaps my biggest defender, Devin, who is largely believed to be civvie (for good reason, if you don't believe me, re-read his posts), was killed last night, and NOW there's this huge movement against me?

Think about it.

I only have a few minutes right now. Will post more thoughts later at lunch. But I wanted to say this:

Dom, and anyone else, I am NOT bad. You're trying to get a civvie lynched. No one gains from my lynch but any of the baddies. If you really are a civvie, Dom, remain open-minded and consider for two seconds that I dropped the case on llama because I realized it was falling apart and was a bunch of crap that didn't stand up. If my gut was wrong, the whole thing fell apart. I didn't have a light bulb moment until Matt F pointed something out. Go back and re-read my posts.

Also, I am not dismissing separate baddie teams because I know I am not bad and I do not think llama is either.

The thread is being swayed in my direction and I am certain that some of it is for nefarious reasons.

I am not just throwing out names to lynch, that is SO untrue. I am trying to get discussion going from players about other players because I personally feel that all the main discussion topics have been mostly or all civvies.

BWT, I know exactly which one you're talking about. I felt there was one in particular where he was doing just that; it was the one you commented on. There have been a few other posts of his that really make me feel he is just twisting my words to get a reaction or something. I don't know. I suppose he could be genuine... if so, he needs to learn to take a step back once and a while (yes, I should listen to my own advice).

Llama, wait until BWT pulls up that quote and let me know if you think he's nefariously twisting my words. Hell, maybe I'm wrong about him. I doubt I'll vote him today since that's really all I have right now, but he's still pinging me as a very possible baddie.

No problem, Matt F. I am curious to see if anyone finds any reason to debunk your theory because it seems to me Trogdor missed his/her night PM last night for sure.

Thanks for the thoughts, AP.

Gleam, curious to hear your thoughts when you get the chance. Why have your suspicions of llama not changed; why do you think he is bad?

Llama, nice low posters analysis, that is great. I have to admit I am a bit curious of that post of Gleam's myself. I too was pinged by timmer's vote yesterday; hopefully he can explain it. CBK I honestly have no read on. What do you think of S~V~S and Mata, out of curiosity?

I have to finish up some studying and then it's bed time for me. I'll be back at lunch tomorrow and maybe very briefly in the morning. I will likely have to vote tomorrow night because I'll be out of town at a conference all day on Friday.

A Person, what are your thoughts?

I am very tempted to vote Lizzy myself, but will let this thought simmer for a while. There are other discussions to be had as well. So far, I've yet to think of a hole in Matt F's theory, and honestly it seems at least pretty likely that Lizzy could be Trogdor. Has anyone thought of any reason to void this?

Thank you, juliets and bea, for your opinions on BDH. I feel he is continuing to twist everything I say and that he's hostile about it, and consequently I feel I'm having a hard time not looking at him through tainted glasses. I can't help but shake the feeling that I think he's baddie though, and I may vote him today. Not sure. I might give him the BOTD for now if I feel Lizzy or anyone else is a better choice. I would appreciate thoughts from others as well.

What do both of you think of BWT, for that matter?

I do find it interesting that juliets and bea seem to be defending BDH to some degree, bea more so... not sure if this is true, but it's the impression I got from their posts. Is this true, either of you, or no? And did anyone else get this impression? Just curious.

As to Snow Dog defending me, that was really strange. I was the first person to admit I didn't have to vote for Hedgeowl; I even had stated that I wish I had thrown off to BDH and let fate decide between AP and Hedgeowl, but I didn't do that, and here was why:

- AP and Hedgeowl each had 5 at the time I voted; I had 3; llama had 4. There were a few other players who had not voted at that last minute besides myself, and just in case one of them might have voted and could have done so for llama, I didn't want there to be any chance llama could die over two of those, so I felt obligated to pick one or the other.
- Consequently, I picked Hedgeowl because I believed to foresee at least some set of circumstances where she was Elo's teammate; however likely that was to be, I had no idea. I honestly was thinking Mongoose seemed more likely to be a Elo teammate, but no one seemed to agree with me, and by the time of my vote some of those feelings had sort of faded in intensity anyway; especially given Mongoose has only pinged me with one post (and in addition to point 1 above), I felt it unnecessary to give her my vote. Additionally, I could not tell (and still can't, really) on AP one way or the other, so I thought I'd give my vote to the player I felt was more likely to be baddie of the two. Hedgeowl was certainly not the player I was most suspicious of, but I did think she could have been bad. It was unfortunate that she wasn't.

Given that, I find Snow Dog's defense of me to be unnecessary and it honestly pings me a bit.

BigDamnHero wrote:
I still think you are a baddies movingpictures but apparently nobody else does so why should I bother anymore?

While I may have been singularly focused, at least I've been a participatory player, which is what I was calling Dfaraday out for (now who's trying to twist my words movingpictures?). I'm going over those who have been largely silent and those who voted for Hedgeowl (hmmmm....didnt Movingpictures vote this way?) to look for other suspects today.

If you still think I am a baddie, why would you stop pursuing it just because "nobody else does"? Also, I received three votes yesterday. That hardly equates to nobody.

What do you mean "may have been"? I still don't see a single other name you have actually mentioned as suspicious. Now if you were calling out DF as suspicious, could you clarify? Just because someone may call someone out doesn't necessarily mean they think that person is suspicious, so I'm curious if you think DF might be bad, and if so, why.

As to twisting of words, I'm not twisting your words, and I'm bothered by the insinuation that you think I am doing so. Can you not understand how I have been interpreting your posts at times to be twisting my words? You're spinning around everything I say and giving it a bad intention. If you are a civvie, consider the idea that I am playing a civvie game. Your tenacity is a bit irksome, regardless of whether it's directed at me or not.

Please let me know what you find after you go over silent and Hedgeowl voters, or whoever else you plan on looking at as well. I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Fuck, that's exactly what I was thinking might happen. RIP Devin, you were a blast to play with finally; after hosting you too many times without getting to play alongside you, it was fun. You will be sorely missed, especially since your death confirms to me that you were very likely civvie.

DFaraday, why has Matt F pinged you?

And that's awfully funny for you to say, BDH, considering you've said hardly anything except for the fact that I am apparently the baddiest of them all. What are your current thoughts then; who are you eyeballing?

Interesting observation on Lizzy... she could be Trogdor. I would especially love to catch Trogdor or a Blue Laser today, but any baddie will do, frankly.

thellama73 wrote:My instinct is that there has been so much arguing among the more active players that the baddies have been lurking among the low posters. I'll be doing a few rereads today.

I agree completely.

I look forward to your re-reads.

I want to do a few myself... but I will be occupied for quite a while. If I get around to anything, I'll be sure to post my analyses.

I agree, I am very unsure of S~V~S's intentions. I really have a hard time reading her nearly all of the time because we never see eye to eye, so I want to hear what others say too, but now that we know how Hedgeowl flipped and how I've been reading a few of her posts, she's bugging me just a little bit. However, as a civvie she can be insightful. I do look forward to seeing her response to you AND what she is thinking as to everything.

bea I have no idea of her intentions. I think both would be great players to look at more closely and try to figure out one way or the other... among others.

I also look forward to hearing from those who haven't been contributing as much, especially those who have not come up with their own thoughts. A few names come to mind.

Now I'll shut up. Seriously. Have to get back to work. Was hoping I'd see a post before that time though... Oh well.

Okay, thanks Daisy! That answers that then.

I did think it was weird Bullz died Night 1 because only three players picked that particular hut. I have considered if there was anything to gleam (pun intended) from that information, but I don't think anything conclusive can be drawn.

Also, regarding llama, I am considering still that I am being played... but I don't feel there's any reason for me to believe so. I will wholeheartedly not support a llama lynch tomorrow.

I need to mull on things and see which players should be analyzed because we definitely need to look elsewhere in addition to BDH, Vomps, A Person, et al.

I'll go ahead and shut up now because I want to give players a chance to respond to inquiries and voice thoughts/suspicions regarding the plethora of options they have; I won't likely have time tonight anyway... I might be able to pop in once, but unsure.

I, for one, am glad the intensity of this thread has seemed to cool, if only for a short period of time. Might be good. Nonetheless, I really am looking forward to hearing from players regarding other players. We really need to try to get feelers out and figure out what's going on. I really think that there are a significant amount of baddies who so far have managed to avoid receiving much attention.

llama, thanks for your response re: Mongoose, I'll take that into consideration. I wasn't reading her the same way, but I'm going to try to be as willing to consider all sides as possible (so far I've done a terrible job of this at times).

Dom, there's nothing at all fishy going on with me, and I'm pretty sure there isn't with llama. I don't agree with his voting so early, but I already expressed that. Your attempt to twist it to make it so seems either desperate or severely misguided. Can you not consider that all or most of the primary lynch candidates yesterday were civvie? Also, you try and tell me that llama and I were not going to be lynched, because for a while there, it certainly seemed that was definitely going to be the case. The dynamic of Day 3 was insane, really, and it developed and changed throughout its course (and for good reason, at least with my change of opinion on llama). To think that llama and I are orchestrating that is absurd. Sometimes I don't think even baddies can orchestrate a thread entirely. Sometimes it's unpredicftable. Also, If we were both baddies, it sure would benefit us to bring so much attention to ourselves, right? Not.

Interesting about Trogdor. Why don't we ask the host? Did anyone ask this yet? I don't remember. Either way it might confirm a possibility for gleam's theory or deny its validity altogether.

Daisy: How does Trogdor's power work? Is the victim chosen randomly among the hut he/she selects, or does he also select the victim once he has selected a hut, or something else?

I want to hear what people have to say about BDH, I am really wondering about him

Interesting observation, gleam, not sure if it means anything though... Will think on that.

Matt F, I specifically m asking about players, I even said I do not suspect some of them and that i was doing it to get thoughts. They range from mostly trust to somewhat to not at all to whatever, I am just asking to get players to talk about other players. I do not think you are bad, I would be surprise if you were at this point tbh. But I wanted to ask about you nonetheless and see what others would say.

BWT, I don't think I really have any questions. If I do come up with anything I will let you know. I suppose I really haven't much of a read on you but I always ready you as blendy which makes you seem bad so I want to see what others have to contribute. Maybe I will looka back at yours and some other players posts but I don't hve time tonight or any time soon.

I don't mind discussing anyone I didn't list either... Those were just the names that came to mind.

Llama, why are you so convinced of mongoose's civvie ness?

Also what do players think of Juliet's and Matt f

Wow, that result sucks majorly. RIP Hedgeowl. I should have thrown off to BDH, but I felt the case on you was more likely to net us a Baddie than that on AP... But there's no way I would have voted for you if I wasn't protecting the other vote getters. And I dd sincerely believe there was at least a chance you were Elohcin'/ teammate.

I agree with devin, we need to look where attention has not been going. I asked twice about BWT earlier but I don't think anyone responded. I m terrible at reading him but he is not reading super great to me... Any opinions from others? Also, I agree on looking at gleam, DP, DFaraday, etc.

How about SVS, what do players think of her?

And lastly, what about BDH and Vomps? Neither received many votes today.

I am not necessarily throwing out that I am suspicious of these players. Some I am, some I am not particularly... I really just want to know what people think.

I have to go now, be around later or something.

Oh, there she is. Ok, see you guys later! I can't afford to stick around and see the result, unfortunately, so I guess I'll see it when I get home, or I'll pop on for like two seconds just to see what happened and will have to catch up later. Not sure when I'll get a chance again, probably tonight, or worst case tomorrow at lunch.

Just here again for a second to say two things: First, I sent Daisy a text, but haven't received an immediate response. Not sure of everything that was on her schedule today while I am at work.

Second, I am feeling just a bit paranoid, I must admit, so this lynch is really nervewracking. I really hope Hedge is bad, but I even more so hope I was right to change my mind about llama. If only there was a way to corroborate my suspicion on the matter...

NOW I have to go back to work. Here's hoping. I wish I could see the result now!

Well, I have to go. I REALLY hope Hedge is Elo's teammate, or at least baddie. If not, that sucks, but my hand was forced, and I don't get the AP votes at all.

Should be interesting to see what results from here. If Hedge does flip civvie, I want to examine certain individuals.

Linki with Vomps: Understood, thanks.

Vompatti wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Vompatti wrote:Ture. I have a feeeling this will end badly.
Spread out votes are never good and I agree, it is possible these leading candidates are civvies (I know for a fact one is and strongly feel another one is). However, your statement pings me just slightly.

Who do you think is most worthy to die today, then?
Possibly A Person. I didn't think he'd get any more votes so I voted for you. I still Devin is the most likely baddie but he hasn't got any votes so far.

I will eat a hat if Devin is a baddie. Seriously.

And why AP?

Hedgeowl wrote:
Linki - and I m dead . Didnt want to role hint cause I would have been Nkd, so yeah I played a blendy game! Wonder why ?

I'm not sure I understand what this means.

Snow Dog wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Vompatti wrote:Ture. I have a feeeling this will end badly.
Spread out votes are never good and I agree, it is possible these leading candidates are civvies (I know for a fact one is and strongly feel another one is). However, your statement pings me just slightly.

Who do you think is most worthy to die today, then?
I wish I knew who you think Llama and Dev are. Are there clues in the posts are or you just theorising?

I am not going to out either of them, but I am not 100% sure of either of them. Just very, very sure of Devin, and pretty sure of llama. I suppose there's any chance I could be wrong, but I really don't think so now.

I was referring to myself as the one I know for a fact, and llama the one I strongly feel about.

voted Hedge

That should say, just in case there are shenanigans.

I really don't get the "case" on AP. He is just likely to be civvie as he is baddie at this point IMO. I will very likely vote Hedge for lack of a better option, but I'm waiting just in case.

Snow Dog wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Snow, what are you currently thinking then? We currently have 4 for AP, 5 for Hedge, 3 for me, 4 for llama, 2 for Vomps.
I'm thinking Hedge will get lynched. Unless you mean something else?

I mean, where are you thinking of placing your vote?

Linki: NVM, I didn't notice you voted.

Mongoose wrote:
Vompatti wrote:Ture. I have a feeeling this will end badly.
I really don't see how it won't. If Llama was saved by a civ, as he thinks he was, that person would only have one lynch stop left, so unless one of our three kids on Death Row is Crack-a-lackin', I don't think s/he will be saving anyone today.

What makes you think both AP and Hedge are civvies? If they receive the most votes, why would anyone other than the lynch stopper himself stop it?

Vompatti wrote:Ture. I have a feeeling this will end badly.

Spread out votes are never good and I agree, it is possible these leading candidates are civvies (I know for a fact one is and strongly feel another one is). However, your statement pings me just slightly.

Who do you think is most worthy to die today, then?

Snow, what are you currently thinking then? We currently have 4 for AP, 5 for Hedge, 3 for me, 4 for llama, 2 for Vomps.

Hedgeowl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Matt F wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Hedgeowl wrote: Just saw this. Do you forget why Snow voted Elohcin? It was because he was taking a gamble trusting you because you both admitted info from the poll. Then he regretted it because he wasnt sure it was a good idea to have voted to protect you. Just wanted to clear that up, because I was not trying to cast suspicion on him.
Okay I had actually forgotten that. Hmmm... I probably wouldn't have voted Snow today anyway because it'd just spread the vote further.
I get it. Don't wanna spread the vote? Thas cool...

Bullzeye wrote:My suspicions have been all over the place today and I now think I might give Hedge another chance rather than vote her today. So that means I'm down to one crazy suspicion and am going to have to *Vote DP* based on the tinfoil theory that he might be Trogdor.

I dunno, this convo between you, Hedge, and Snowdog has me wondering...and I def don't wanna see Llama lynched, so

Votes Hedge
I have to agree with this observation. Something might be up among those three. But I honestly have no idea.

Also, timmer's vote makes NO sense to me.

I understand the suspicion of A Person, but why would a baddie seriously do those things? To me, it just reads like normal AP behavior, not telling one way or the other.

At this point, I plan to vote Hedge if at all possible. if I have to save in a specific set of circumstances, I guess I might vote AP or Vomps even (seems very unlikely).

Linki with Snow Dog: I understand that completely; I've had that feeling way too many times this game, lol.
Wait are you sugessting Bullz, Snow and I are baddie teammates? We just were in your game Bioshock!

Matt F didnt play that game, so he gets a pass, but MP really? You assigned our roles! I dont think your bad for this, but think about it first.

I would rather not vote to save myself either, but I think you and I are being forced into it. Me more than you now. I am leaning towards A Person, mainly because you and Matt are so sure Llama is civ, but just like any of us, will vote to save myself.

I am not suggesting you are teammates; I am merely considering Matt F's observation that implies you might be. I don't even think it's true; I will leave speculating until you flip whatever (assuming you are the one that flips today).

Also, the likelihood of all of you receiving BTSC is just as likely as any other grouping of three randomly selected players from this game, so what does Bioshock have to do with it?

Mongoose wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Why are you really worried Hedge will flip civvie?
Like others, I am just not convinced by the case on her. She's not my teammate, if that's what you are wondering. I'd not be so vocal purely to defend a teammate.

MovingPictures07 wrote: Also, where am I supposed to vote instead; what would you (or others) suggest? I am certainly not voting for llama or myself or Devin.
I wish I had a better answer for you there. I said earlier that I'm not happy with who the main three vote-receivers are (Hedge, llama, you), so it's not a good situation.

Super linki

At the moment, AP actually has me beat by one vote. What do you think of him?

Matt F wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Hedgeowl wrote: Just saw this. Do you forget why Snow voted Elohcin? It was because he was taking a gamble trusting you because you both admitted info from the poll. Then he regretted it because he wasnt sure it was a good idea to have voted to protect you. Just wanted to clear that up, because I was not trying to cast suspicion on him.
Okay I had actually forgotten that. Hmmm... I probably wouldn't have voted Snow today anyway because it'd just spread the vote further.
I get it. Don't wanna spread the vote? Thas cool...

Bullzeye wrote:My suspicions have been all over the place today and I now think I might give Hedge another chance rather than vote her today. So that means I'm down to one crazy suspicion and am going to have to *Vote DP* based on the tinfoil theory that he might be Trogdor.

I dunno, this convo between you, Hedge, and Snowdog has me wondering...and I def don't wanna see Llama lynched, so

Votes Hedge

I have to agree with this observation. Something might be up among those three. But I honestly have no idea.

Also, timmer's vote makes NO sense to me.

I understand the suspicion of A Person, but why would a baddie seriously do those things? To me, it just reads like normal AP behavior, not telling one way or the other.

At this point, I plan to vote Hedge if at all possible. if I have to save in a specific set of circumstances, I guess I might vote AP or Vomps even (seems very unlikely).

Linki with Snow Dog: I understand that completely; I've had that feeling way too many times this game, lol.

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