The Syndicate

timmer, maybe I misunderstood, but what I was referring to was the following:

timmer wrote:Everyone, let me just start by saying I'm sorry for how shit I've been playing. It's been a stressful few days and I've let it make my play sloppy and cheap.

That said, MP, I think this IS a faction game, but it is NOT an LMS game. It won't ever get to be a true LMS game, i don't think. And you're right, wrapping oneself in the civvie flag is kind of pointless (and again,kind of cheap on my part... I get that way when I'm distracted, I'm well aware).

It all comes down to who is lying to the thread, and that's where my current paralysis comes from. I have lost trust in the things i thought I knew, and as such I don't know what to think.

My thoughts are going out to your niece, SVS, that sounds like a horrible time over there

Are you indeed holding onto the Old Rogue claim then?

Llama, what are your current thoughts, as a confirmed Detective role?

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I did not make this game personal. I think that can be made evidently clear. I even handled it well by saying she should take this out of the thread. Why she brought it up AGAIN in thread is beyond me.

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

I appreciate your attempt to make light of the situation, but it's best to let it be, I think.

Sorry, BR, I'm not upset. I just am trying to make it clear that I want the Mod on Duty function respected and I don't want to discuss that any more in this thread.

And I think what you propose on timmer is worth considering, since Grodd and Top are two roles that are antagonistic to all other factions.

That said, what convinces you that timmer isn't being framed? I'm not sure one way or the other.

I do find it particularly interesting, though, that timmer claimed Old Rogue and now seems to be backing away from that claim after my posts today.

I did not make this game personal. I think that can be made evidently clear. I even handled it well by saying she should take this out of the thread. Why she brought it up AGAIN in thread is beyond me.

Turnip Head wrote: Probably MP. I mean I get what he's saying about this game being unconventional. But it feels like he's trying to push the Independents away from supporting the Old Rogues, and that seems like a New Rogue agenda. Or he's just a rogue Indy rogue gone rogue.

This is fair enough, but I specifically am not saying such a thing. I have not shown any favor for Old Rogues over New Rogues or vice versa.

S~V~S wrote:and then MP comes in and says things that he knows will get my Irish up,.

STOP saying this. I did no such thing. I am incredibly insulted that you said this once, let alone twice. Take it out of the thread if you have a problem with me, fellow Admin, who should know how the Mod on Duty function works.

I do NOT rile up people on purpose, ever. EVER. That is not me. As I said before, I had no idea anything I was going to say would rile you up. When you say this, you're implying heavily that I'm lying about that.

I am really insulted by you insinuating that not only once but twice. Don't make this game personal and keep this out of the thread.

I've said what I've needed to on the matter. I really need to get back to SAS coding. I will return at some point before the vote ends, or will try my best to, to reevaluate my vote. For now, I'm keeping it where it is for previously stated reasons.

As I've said, please vote me out of this game if we're going to continue pulling the "I'm so civvie!!!" act because I don't want to play this game that way. For those of you who are willing to approach this game like the semi-unconventional game that it is, especially now that we're in d5, then please consider and vote for the person you believe can be least trusted.

Excuse me, mafia team has 7, not 6.

Civilians cannot work if there are only 6 of them, if the "mafia" team also has 6, and there also are 6 neutral roles. MM, how can you not see that?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I can't help it if other people aren't viewing the game the way I am. I am viewing the game for what it is. If you don't view it that way, vote me out.

No you're not. Nowhere does it say that this game will become increasingly LMS. Nowhere does it say that there are no civilians in this game. You are trying to re-describe this game into something that it is not.

Yes, it does though, MM.
MR specifically states it is "as close to a civilian option that will exist".

To proclaim there are civvies and baddies this game is to not understand the game's setup.

If you disagree with me, vote me out.

timmer wrote:Everyone, let me just start by saying I'm sorry for how shit I've been playing. It's been a stressful few days and I've let it make my play sloppy and cheap.

That said, MP, I think this IS a faction game, but it is NOT an LMS game. It won't ever get to be a true LMS game, i don't think. And you're right, wrapping oneself in the civvie flag is kind of pointless (and again,kind of cheap on my part... I get that way when I'm distracted, I'm well aware).

It all comes down to who is lying to the thread, and that's where my current paralysis comes from. I have lost trust in the things i thought I knew, and as such I don't know what to think.

My thoughts are going out to your niece, SVS, that sounds like a horrible time over there

This is a very good point. I do not wish to say this game ever will be true LMS. What I am saying is that elements of LMS wheeling and dealing become more prevalent as the game progresses, which is an inevitable product of it being a faction game. Thanks for stating it better than I was.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I never said it was LMS. I've been saying over and over that it's a 50/50 hybrid. I said, over time, the game becomes increasingly LMS.

The fact that the teams don't need each other dead to win supports my viewpoint of the game.

The only straight up mafia team is perhaps the New Rogues, since they need every other faction dead, but they also have 6 potential allies in the Independent Rogues, as well as their fellow New Rogues. They're almost just as "civilian" as Old Rogues then, yes?

Don't you see the problem with this statement? Are the Independent Rogues not a faction?

Your interpretation of the New Rogues' hostility to the Independent Rogues would be contradictory.

I don't know what to think of her. I have no thoughts on her, at the moment, really. I thought the d3 survival was Aces, not Daisy, based on the fact that the host post indicated it was Aces, as well as Aces's role reveal (I believe he caused the alternative d3 when he survived the original d3).

I do know that RL is a major factor for her, since she has been very busy alongside me entertaining her family this weekend, as well as working 9 straight days in a row (whereas I have been busy with school).

I can't help it if other people aren't viewing the game the way I am. I am viewing the game for what it is. If you don't view it that way, vote me out.

I never said it was LMS. I've been saying over and over that it's a 50/50 hybrid. I said, over time, the game becomes increasingly LMS.

The fact that the teams don't need each other dead to win supports my viewpoint of the game.

The only straight up mafia team is perhaps the New Rogues, since they need every other faction dead, but they also have 6 potential allies in the Independent Rogues, as well as their fellow New Rogues. They're almost just as "civilian" as Old Rogues then, yes?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:SVS said "one less civvie" not "one less Old Rogue".

And why would you want players to act more "neutral" and less "civvie"? Wouldn't that make the line between civvies and baddies even hazier and harder to determine?

Fair enough, I was paraphrasing since I couldn't remember the exact wording, but those are synonymous in terms of how people are using them, yes?

I don't understand. There are no civvies and baddies this game. If we act as though there are, we only are lying to ourselves.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

Why does your belief of my intentions dictate your general trustworthiness?

Why would it not?

People vote other people out in mafia games all the time if they don't believe they are trustworthy. That's the point. That is one of the few major principles that is not different in this game.

If I don't trust you, then you can bet I'll be hostile toward you, which would result in you not trusting me.

I'm playing to weed out the players I don't think I can trust, because while this game has the illusion of a conventional mafia setup, when it comes down to the wire, it will become increasingly LMS. It's very much like Monopoly in that way.

Turnip Head wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

How should the game be played right now? Which faction should people be claiming? Which faction should we be voting out?

Does it not make sense for everyone to appear as neutral as possible, i.e., Independent Rogues? It makes no sense to claim Old Rogues, especially at this stage in the game, as it merely sets the game up to be an "Us v. Them" mentality when such a thing is unnecessary and unnatural. Conventional mafia games thrive on this because the civilians have majority and are peaceful, trying to avoid death by the "few" mafia. But this game has just as many strictly neutral roles as "civilian" roles to start with, so how could that dynamic even hold in the slightest?

The Detectives could be argued to make the "civilian" number 9, but that is NOT the case. The Detectives may even, in the words of the host "choose to imprison the Old Rogues as well, but it is not required." Even if that wasn't the case, 9 "civilians" with loosely tied objectives and accompanying a neutral team of 6 still change the dynamic of this game.

Essentially, this is a faction game where factions have a certain set of objectives they must accomplish. For example, the New and Old Rogues need certain other factions dead, but the Independent Rogues merely need to survive. The remaining factions have hidden objectives.

The New Rogues are still the common enemy, but the Independent Rogues, of which there are six, don't need them dead.

People shouldn't be "claiming" anything. This game all comes down to wheeling and dealing, in the end, and eliminating the serial killer as well as any other common enemies. It's a very intriguing mix of 50% LMS and 50% mafia game in that regard. Consequently, it all comes down to how players present themselves in terms of trust and how they choose to play the game.

For example, as I stated previously, I believe S~V~S has been transparently contradictory in her intentions, since she stated her lynch would result in "one less Old Rogue role that timmer can claim", all the while denouncing timmer as a liar yet recently backing off of that. How can you trust someone like that? I'm a bit wary of timmer and Bass for similar Old Rogue claims, but they haven't exhibited as contradictory behavior as S~V~S has.

I will consider voting out Soneji because he clearly isn't helping anyone, but for the time being, I'd rather vote out players that are willingly lying about being "civilian" and who seem to be contradicting their own stated intentions because I believe it indicates that they cannot be trusted.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

I know I will likely be lynched because I'm telling the truth, which is absurd, but then so be it. I am playing this game the way that it seems to be designed to be played, which is unconventionally.

I'm not addressing S~V~S with the conventional mindset accusation, I'm addressing practically every player in this game, including FZ., timmer, and others.

I really just wonder if we can all stop the "I'm so civvie" act and be honest with how this game is set up. It's all a lie and we all know it. There are only a couple of Old Rogues roles remaining, and they are only a faction that most fits the conventional idea of what a civilian is (but a "civilian" faction relies on having a majority, which isn't what this game is about), and the vast majority of players this game either have strictly neutral or hidden objectives.

I also am voting S~V~S because she defended herself by saying "one less civvie role that Timmer can claim", yet she seems to be believing timmer recently, and I find them to be contradictory statements.

I very likely could change my mind once I have more proper time, but I wanted to vote in case I don't get that time before the vote ends.

I've been insanely busy, so I can't address all concerns just yet, but I am taking a break from SAS studying and wanted to say a few things.

First off, I'm really sorry to hear about your niece, S~V~S. That said, I had absolutely no intentions of upsetting you and I didn't "know" or even consider that anything I posted in this game would upset you. Instead of bringing that into the thread, please, if you have a problem with a post I have made, can we resolve it outside of the thread?

TH, I made that post because I am baffled that people continually are analyzing this game in terms of "civvies" and such. There are only 6 "civvie" roles to begin with, and they aren't even civvies, they're just a faction that opposes the New Rogues, and vice versa. This is a fact. I don't understand why we're approaching the game with a conventional mindset.

Devin the Omniscient wrote: Also, I was considering tossing a vote your way to do the same!

Good thing you didn't.

S~V~S wrote:He said that Eloh, whom Timmer replaced, was bad. Looking back on it, I can't see any reason how he would benefit from that if she were other than bad. Even if he was bad himself, it would be a cred thing for him since she did not want to play anyhow.

The more I think on it, the more I think I believe Epi may have been right.

I would like to know who Timmer, and LC, want to lynch.

I also find it odd that this night, the host did not really specify who killed, just how many. That is different, and I wonder why that is.

But this doesn't make that much sense to me, since Epi even admitted he was just trying to get Elo out of the game, and that the only reason he thought she was bad is that she seemed disengaged (and thus didn't have BTSC). Correct? Or am I misremembering?

S~V~S wrote:Soneji hasn't posted in days.

And I think Timmer is bad. I am not sure if I can really articulate why. I gave him the BOTD yesterday because he told me something I know to be true, and he had no way to know that. BUT that does not make him a civ. He called out me & Roxy from his first posts in the game, and I know he was wrong about me. And, in retrospect, I think Epi was right, although at the time I thought his whole story was crap. Having gone back & reread him, I think I may have misjudged him, and I think Roxy may have as well.

I will go back tomorrow and try to see if I can put a case together out of the thread based on what my gut is telling me.

I think Bass has a really good point about Roxy. And I think there might be some serious opposition not just from real CC, but also from real Heatwave if what he says was not so. And I think it's because Roxy was CC.

I am looking forward to your thoughts, MP. Also to Dreamys.

Define "bad".

EBWOP: Sorry, folks. I meant OLD Rogues as to civilians, not new, obviously.

To answer my own question, I'm unsure of where to vote at the moment, but I'm currently trying to ground myself in this game and will provide an answer as soon as possible.

Given the nature of this game, it seems that most parties would want to minimize unnecessary conflict and accomplish their win conditions all the while appearing as reasonable and receptive to others as possible, yes?

I understand why it makes sense for everyone to appear civilian-friendly for the beginning of the game, but once a significant number of Old Rogues are dead, this game could take on more of an LMS-style.

It seems to me that we would want to eliminate players who seem unlikely to offer any harm to us, but simultaneously the argument can be made to eliminate those who could offer no benefit as well.

Where is Soneji? I've played with him on NF and was looking forward to hearing from him here. I may vote his way just to jolt his attention if I don't find a more productive use toDay.

Bass, I understand how you reached the conclusion that Roxy is Captain Cold, thank you. It makes sense to me. That said, I'm not necessarily convinced I should trust you at the moment. Can you elaborate upon that?

What is that people are seeing in timmer exactly that makes him worthy of votes? Sorry if I'm asking questions that have been answered, but I finally have just a little bit of time, and I'm trying to ground myself in a game that I've only been occasionally skimming from an outsider's perspective.

Just a warning: I may not be incredibly active this game, since my mafia plate is overfilling, and my RL has been nuts and will continue to be for at least two weeks, but I'll try my best.

If everyone had to vote for a player right now, who would it be for and why?

Alright, so I'm never going to have time to actually read back through this thread, but as I said earlier, I have been keeping up from time to time.

I'm glad people recognize that traditional ways of approaching this game are not particularly fitting for this game, since your classic "baddies" and "civvies" don't really exist here.

The closest to "civvies" there even is are the New Rogues, but even then, since there are only a handful or so, it changes the dynamic of this game.

People are acting shocked as if the lynches have been really weird, but I can't fathom why, since they're par for the course for what I would expect in a game of this nature, where most parties are seemingly out for themselves. This game strikes me really as more of a meld of 50% LMS and 50% unconventional take on traditional mafia, closer to Monopoly than most other games on this site, in my opinion.

Bass, how did you come up with the theory that Rox is Captain Cold?

Once I have more than a few minutes to get into this game, folks, I'm going to make a more proper introduction post with a bunch of thoughts. Hopefully soon. For now, I thought I should at least ask this question.

Doesn't seem my vote will matter, so voting Aces anyway.

Sorry, just got home from my exam, and I still have plenty to do to get ready for my SAS crash course starting Monday, other end of the semester stuff, and Daisy's family is coming into town tomorrow. I'll try to give a more proper look at this game when I can, sometime this weekend.

Hello, everyone! So I am definitely overextended with regards to mafia, but MR really needed replacements, and this game just looks so cool I couldn't help myself. Plus, with my man Devin's return to mafia after about a year, I just had to play. Good to see you, Devin.

I have my Microeconomic Theory exam in a bit over 24 hours from now, so considering I haven't studied as much as I should have at this point, I will be in crashcourse mode until then. Consequently, don't expect to see me again until tomorrow evening CST.

DharmaHelper wrote:Gosh remember Death Note Mafia when Epi was so right about Me, Llama, AND FZ? Remember how fun that was :P

Turnip Head wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Turnip Head!!!!!

What are you doing still playing this game? Your Champions game starts soon.

:P

I'm giving this game everything I've got until the Champs game starts, at which point I inevitably won't have time for anything else :P

Makes sense to me. Lol.

Turnip Head!!!!!

What are you doing still playing this game? Your Champions game starts soon.

:P

Epignosis wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:For the record, Elohcin was a baddie without BTSC in Death Note, but she posted quite a bit (for her) in that game.

And to add to this note, Elohcin did have potential for BTSC in Death Note.

Elohcin had BTSC in Death Note. She outed herself to her enemy.

I still every time I think of it. It was so classic.

thellama73 wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Was Llama good or bad in the Morlock game? I can't recall, I think I have to go look.

For some reason, people thought my not being interested in anything besides being King of the Morlocks was somehow sinister and they lynched me for it.

History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.

Ohhhh no! They say he's got to go! GO GO GODZILLA
Ohhhh no! There goes Tokyo! GO GO GODZILLA