The Syndicate

Rox, you want to talk about higher posters. What about reywaS? He currently is #6. What do you think of him?

Rox, why are you fixating on high posters? Can't you make the same mirrored argument about low posters?

When I was saying earlier that we should consider everyone as recruited/recruitee, I was including high and low posters. I'm all for discussing them with you, but I personally do not have any strong reason to believe any of the top 5 or so high posters are recruited at this time. You seem to think that Jay is. Do you think any of the others are?

It's entirely possible that no "high" posters are recruited at this time. It's also possible that one is, whether mafia or civilian. Anything is possible. At this time, Metalmarsh89 seems most likely to me as a mafia recruit, as evidenced by my list.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, do you think you'd be able to make a Rainbow List at this time?
I'm working on Bubbles right now. I'll try to cook something up afterwords.

Noted, no rush.

Roxy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.
I agree it is why I have brought up JJJ.

I'm all for discussing JJJ; I'm just not seeing any of the points you're making at this time.

Try to convince me as much as you can. Why should I believe JJJ is bad?

As for my ranking of those 4 Sorsha votes, I'm thinking:

BWT > unfurl > Devin > Tranq

If I include Scotty and Spacedaisy since they are the other 2 who have voted for her at this time, then it'd go:

Scotty = Spacedaisy > BWT > unfurl > Devin > Tranq

1) BWT's other post content leads me to believe he is being the most sincere in his thoughts, and his post also seemed the most straightforward/blunt.
2) unfurl's reasoning "I think Sorsha knows" seems WIFOMy/odd to me, but I could see it coming from a genuine perspective. I could also see it as an easily manufactured reasoning as well. Not sure what to think of it, since I've been reading unfurl as not genuine for quite some time, so I feel I could use some fresh perspectives on this.
3) Devin has been a habitual bandwagoner this game, which I can see the civilian perspective for (I know he's a busy guy), but I really want to grill him because I think he's been getting by pretty easily. His bandwagon votes, from what I can recall (I can look later once I have more time), would be easy to manufacture. It's easy to just go "Yep, I agree with so and so's post on the matter", which is how he's been posting a lot.
4) Tranq's post is pretty weak, since he didn't even provide reasons for his RGB ranking, as interesting as it was. I hope he can elaborate later.

Scotty wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.

What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?

unfurl:
Spoiler: show
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough

Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way
BWT:
Spoiler: show
birdwithteeth11 wrote:I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.

Votes Sorsha
Devin:
Spoiler: show
Devin the Omniscient wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!

In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.
Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.

Linki: mega post number 2.
Tranq:
Spoiler: show
Tranq wrote:My RGB list:

Sorsha
TinyBubbles
Boomslang

Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?

*votes Sorsha*
To answer your question MP, I agree with these rankings and I don't like Tranq's dealings here. His content is about as full as my belly right now, and I haven't eaten since last night.

Scotty, I appreciate your response, but I realize I made something unclear.

I myself was not sharing my ranking of them in that post. I believe it was the order in which they posted, but it's at least the order in which I compiled the quotes.

So you do rank them from most to least sincere in that order?

Hey Rox, I have a few more questions for you, whenever you get a chance.

1) You seemed intent to really baddie hunt going into this phase and I feel like you've been one of the players delivering on this promise, but I'm curious to know even more about what you're thinking. Who are your top 5 (or a similar number, if that's inconvenient) suspects for mafia recruiters/recruitees at this time and why?
2) What are your current thoughts on BWT? How heavily or slightly do you suspect him at this time and why?
3) What are your current thoughts on Boomslang? Have you stated any? If so, I apologize, but I cannot recall yours off hand.
4) What are your current thoughts on unfurl? I know you've come to her defense earlier. What do you think of her Sorsha vote today?

We both approach mafia from very different mindsets, so I think it'll behoove us to engage each other in conversation and consider the other player's perspective. Two heads are better than one!

So far, I feel like we've probably been finding each other shifty for not understanding where the other is coming from, which is what's causing us to eyeball each other (yet not too heavily) off and on during this game.

I'd like to ask unfurl the same first three questions.

Alright, here's an exercise. 4 Sorsha votes that were just cast since last night.

What I'm curious from everyone is a ranking of sincerity. Which vote post seems most sincere, considering that player's other content this game? Which seems least sincere?

unfurl:

Spoiler: show

unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.
fair enough

Dom wrote:
unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that
Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.
MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

Spacedaisy wrote:Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.
Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way

BWT:

Spoiler: show

Devin:

Spoiler: show

Tranq:

Spoiler: show

As for my thoughts re: Sorsha, I need to mull over what Jay has posted, and re-consider. I legitimately saw Sorsha's behavior as very WIFOM-heavy with regards to Golden, and my general lack of opinion of her whatsoever last night led me to examine her in a harsh light, especially once Scotty analyzed her quotes (something I was intending to do). Thanks to Scotty and Jay for analyzing them under two different operating perspectives.

I am shocked to see how quickly the train has developed, which does give me a bit of pause, but for now I'm still keeping my vote on TinyBubbles. Sorsha is in the bottom half of my Rainbow, and I will keep considering her for my vote.

Let's talk about some other players, shall we?

How about Devin, Tranq, aapje, and unfurl?

Devin, Tranq, unfurl, and BWT just jumped onto Sorsha. What do players think of their vote explanations? I'll take a look at them myself and let you all know.

aapje seems content to continue waiting on his baddie hunt, even though it's Day 4 and each team is clearly cemented now, and focus entirely on low posters. I can entirely relate with why he's fixating on them, but does anyone else find this disconcerting?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?
Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:

Boomslang wrote:I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?
This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.
JJJ, can you elaborate what exactly it is you find troubling about this post? What's the baddie mindset? I'm trying to understand it and am just not sure I'm seeing the mindset of a baddie in that post.
It's suspicious at face value. This is reminiscent of a post I made as a baddie in the champs finale that drew a ton of heat. I uttered a sentence that immediately brought the vultures circling: "What do you want from me?"

I was exasperated by constant pressure from a single source (coolkid in that case) and it drove me to saying something that was honestly terrible at face value. I don't necessarily think Boomslang was "exasperated" by me, but I think the constant pressure I was applying led to this crack -- I don't see this post coming from a civilian or neutral mindset.

Moreover, I'd have felt a lot better if he'd have simply granted the mistake after I pointed it out. Something like "oh yeah I see what you mean, I dunno why I was thinking that." Instead he argued me to the tooth that it did make sense, seemingly to dissuade the notion that there was a mistake. That's how baddies respond when accused of things that seem nitpicky -- they get incredibly frustrated and try to hammer home their true meaning without any honest-seeming resignation.

This just happened to me; I'm probably sensitive to it.

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

Maybe I'll revisit your conversation with him, because I'm struggling to uncover his intentions personally. I still am torn between the two perspectives I espoused earlier, though I've been increasingly thinking he's probably just a neutral in the past cycle.

Roxy wrote:
nutella wrote:
Roxy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Roxy wrote:I personally feel boomslang is yet a Neutral. I think JJJ made his points - sure - but imo he is just going for another easy lynch.
This would imply that you found at least one of my points to be inadequate. Please show me. I've tried my best to assess players and come up with reads. If I wanted an "easy" lynch I would have just joined the anti-Golden crusade.
Where did I imply that?
Oh thats right I didn't. You are trying to put something into my post that simply is not there and making my post have a different inflection.

I just think Boomslang would make a horrible recruit. (No offense Boomslang I said the same thing about my own son).
He has not really been in the thread.
You can tell he is not keeping up by looking at his posts.
If he is not around to read or post properly what makes you so sure he has had time to try for a recruitment?

I think you, however, would make an excellent recruit.
you are paying attention to the thread.
You are playing the game and fully reading and posting.
You are under no suspicion but from me.
You have been around to eneter contests for recruitmen
You a good player so you know how to play the same once recruited.
You are pushing neutral easy lynch after lynch.
I actually agree with most of this post, with two caveats:
1) It is equally likely that JJJ has been recruited as a civvie.
2) Why are you discounting the possibility that Boomslang started out as a baddie, as one of the leaders?
1.)No. Bc his posts have a tone that does not feel civvie. He has pushed his Boomslang case (I am not the only one who does not see it yet he keeps pushing and pushing) not even trying to look for other suspicions. Though I admit I am not fully caught up. His responses did not help him any bc he keeps trying to insinuate crap into my posts that is not there. Why keep trying to say I am calling everyone who is a high poster bad when I clearly am only calling *him* bad?

2.) I hope BR and LC do not take offense to this as I hope other players don't as well but do I really think BR would put Boomslang as a recruiter? No I don't. Even if they random'ed the roles I believe there was more than one or two tweaks. I do it in games I host.

I'm not sure I understand your points here, Rox.

1) Jay has unarguably posted more cases and baddie hunted more than practically anyone else in this game. Wouldn't you agree?

2) I think this perspective is very dangerous. We should consider literally every player as a possible recruiter or recruitee.

With regards to bandwagoning, here's what I'm thinking:

I think bandwagoning is more likely to happen this game, particularly in the early stages, due to the neutral-heavy player base. In fact, neutrals might have the most incentive to baddie hunt.

With that said, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it would benefit a mafia to appear as though they are neutral, so in conjunction with the desire to get rid of someone not on their team, I still think there is much incentive for baddies to jump onto bandwagons.

Of course, that doesn't stop civilians from bandwagoning, especially if they are low on time, since I've seen civilians make terrible votes, myself included, time and time again.

Jay, do you think you'd be able to make a Rainbow List at this time?

Can we talk about Devin? He keeps bandwagoning and no one is calling him out for it. He's ever increasingly falling down my list every time I see a post from him.

S~V~S, I'm not trying to get you killed or anything like that. Baddies want to kill other baddies probably as much as they do those who are considered civilian; and, in this game, there might be even more incentive to keeping players who seem to be considered civilian around more than in typical games, either to recruit them or to make players tinfoil against them ('Why haven't you died yet? You must be recruited!').

Besides, it's only my opinion. If the baddies decide to kill the player at the top of my rainbow list every time, so be it, but I can't imagine they value my opinion that highly. The benefits I receive in forcing myself to evaluate every player, as well as in organizing my thoughts on all of those players, by making a rainbow list outweigh any possible cons, in my opinion, very easily.

Spoiler: show

nutella, thanks for the list! How much more strongly do you feel about DH and rey than those in the category above?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?
Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:

Boomslang wrote:I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?
This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.

JJJ, can you elaborate what exactly it is you find troubling about this post? What's the baddie mindset? I'm trying to understand it and am just not sure I'm seeing the mindset of a baddie in that post.

Holy Sorsha bandwagon batman!

Alright, I'm here taking a break from PhD work, but only for 30-60 minutes tops. Gonna comment on some things.

nutella wrote:I find myself roughly concurring with the majority of MP's rainbow reads (biggest discrepancy is unfurl, and the strength of the baddie reads is a bit different). I like your thoughts on Sorsha, but I could also easily see her as an unrecruited.

I don't really know what to think of Dom. I don't like that his only reaction to the lynch + lack of night was "I need to think more" and then he disappeared. What kind of remark is that, anyway? Afraid to go for a stream-of-consciousness post? And you too Rey, why were you so hesitant to publicly react to Golden's flip?

Would you mind making a list? I'm curious.

Can you better explain to me what you think of unfurl? I kept her in the bottom section based on what I've thought of her for Days, as well as Daisy's thoughts on her the other day, but I'm trying to reevaluate her with an open mind, since it's possible the fact that we just aren't seeing eye to eye at all is why I'm finding her more suspicious than I would otherwise.

Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!

In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.

MP/Sockman Rainbow List #1 - Day 4

MovingPictures07

S~V~S
nutella
Dom

Bullzeye
JaggedJimmyJay
Spacedaisy
birdwithteeth11
Scotty
bea

Roxy
Canucklehead
timmer

Ricochet
Turnip Head
Russtifinko / Synonym
DharmaHelper

thellama73
Metalmarsh89
reywaS
Boomslang
DrWilgy
Tranq
DisgruntledPorcupine
DFaraday

LoRab
aapje
Devin the Omniscient

unfurl
Sorsha
TinyBubbles

It was still quite difficult to commit to traditional civilian/mafia reads of everyone given we still have about half of neutrals (right?), but I forced myself to. All players' positions are very subject to change, especially provided the nature of this game, and I'm going to try to keep an open mind to, but also a skeptical eye on, everyone.

I realize I haven't really talked about Sorsha yet, but I was willing to give her time to catch up provided her RL situation, and when I forced myself to think about her under this exercise, I realized she seems to fit the bill very well for recruiter/recruitee. I also find the WIFOM that she projected in the Golden situation to be very tenuous; I believe someone else mentioned this as well (can't remember who, sorry, whoever you are). Add Sorsha to the definite "sidelines" theory I spoke of earlier. What are players' thoughts on Sorsha? Or literally anyone who you feel hasn't been talked about enough yet?

If anyone wants me to elaborate upon any of these reads, I would be more than happy to do so. Most are a combination of the players' content and how genuine I believe that player is in their behavior.

Even better, I hope we can open up discussion on as many players as possible today.

It's Day 4, the baddies have recruited at least 3 to their teams (if I understand aapje and Rico's thoughts correctly), and I have my rainbow sock avatar back, so I think it's time for a Rainbow List.

I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.

Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.

As to Boomslang, Jay...

Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?

Canucklehead wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:rip golden, and happy birthday black rock!
also canucklehead what concerns? if you mean my comment about being emotionally invested, it's based not only on this game but every game since the first, i felt like golden was always targeted for being talkative and often ended up in(what seemed to be) arguments, i was uncomfortable. i dont know what else to tell you, the amount of posts a person makes doesnt relate directly to how affected they are by the game, everyone has different limits and different expectations.
This is a non-answer. If you had actually read my post (and those of other people who have commented), you'd know that my thoughts about you had little to do with post count, and everything to do with a contradiction between your claim of being "emotionally invested" and the CONTENT (not the quantity) of your posts, which bear absolutely no evidence of anything I would ever classify as "emotional investment". Obviously, "everyone has different limits and different expectations".... but that has nothing to do with my suspicions of you. To put it more plainly, I am suspicious of what appears to me to be an attempt by you to *seem* involved in the game and to present yourself as such ("Guyyyyyssssss I'm SO EMOTIONALLY invested! Emotions! I feel things about this game!"), juxtaposed with the lack of substantive content in any of your posts and (most importantly) your refusal to acknowledge any of the suspicions and comments about you, which an "emotionally invested" person would not do, and (more tellingly) which a *civ* would not do. I think you were hoping to float by under the radar by ignoring things said about you and focusing on the Big Emotional Things, like Golden's Saga of Bullsuit Drama. I think your interactions with Llama on Day 1 may have made you an appealing target for a baddie recruiter. I think you've been recruited and are hiding.
I'm sorry that you "don't know what else to tell me". I feel like a good place to start might be to tell me who you're suspicious of, what you think about llama's continuing suspicion of you, why you haven't addressed anyone's comments about you before now..... you know, basic bullsuit like that.

I'll vote Tiny right now. I too have been consistently dissatisfied with her responses.

Vote registered for tinybubbles

unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?
Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that

Unfurl you keep espousing content as if I shouldn't be questioning anything you do and that I should just trust that you have sincere motives, sorry but that's not mafia so I think if you were civ or neutral you would understand why I'm questioning you.

From what I recall you barely committed to the Golden debacle so that's why I named you off the top of my head. I can ISO you later to confirm if you want.

Why on earth would you want golden gone? That's a ridiculous question since you could ask that of anyone. His interests might not have aligned with yours perhaps?

thellama73 wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote: Regarding Boomslang... OK, here's where my mind is at. I can understand why everyone finds his indignant self-vote suspicious. I even find it somewhat suspicious. However, I know Boomslang quite well. He was one of my groomsmen at my wedding (along with birdwithteeth, Devin, and Russ).

I also know his RL is busy. Regarding his mafia meta, in past games he never was one to be a super high poster, but to contribute a couple times a cycle when he really felt he had something to say. With that said, he's somewhat of an enigma for me from a meta standpoint, since he hasn't played TOO many mafia games, and he's returning from a hiatus with this game and Angry Birds. So my judgment of him relies on RL meta, not mafia meta really.

I'm literally torn right down the middle with my thoughts on Boomslang:

1) Half of me finds the fact that Boomslang has consistently been on Golden and hardly contributed much else to be opportunistic. Part of me also sees his self-vote perhaps as a frustrated Azura or Azura teammate since it appears to me that team is absolutely trying to take advantage of Golden (assuming Golden is not on that team) and use him as a free lynch today.

2) The other half of me can actually get inside Boomslang's head and see where he's coming from, but mostly because I know him well. Boomslang is a sharp guy. He's really good at strategy games. I can see why he thinks self-voting is absolutely absurd, since he has a similar perspective to mine on the matter. Consistently with that, he voted for me after I self-voted on Day 1 of Angry Birds (but I won't mention more since that game is ongoing; I just wanted to demonstrate that fact). So I can easily see a scenario in which a neutral, or even civilian, Boomslang doesn't want to bother to pick up the WIFOM that Golden is laying down, doesn't trust him at all, and thus is voting for him. I can absolutely see this. If that is the case, and if Golden isn't bad, then Boomslang is an alternate option for mafia shenanigans, assuming this vote continues to be that specific two-man race.

If I had to pick one of the two candidates at gunpoint, I'd actually pick number 2, and assess that Boomslang is a neutral being utilized by the mafia.
Equivocate much, MP?

Huh?

unfurl wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Spoiler: show
unfurl wrote:Bye Golden, I hope you get you wish to comeback to the game

Roxy wrote:I hope people today will act more reasonable. For me yesterdays lynch was rather disturbing and I do not understand some of the way over the top antics that are being employed during this game. It is distracting and for me very unhelpful.

I want to hunt baddies - there have been recruits and there are recruiters. I am done hearing about how Neutrals can be bad. I am sorry but Neutrals are Neutrals. How can you be a bad Neutral? Makes no sense.

If you would like to discuss possible recruiters/recruitees then quote this and list your top two suspects that you feel fit the bill.
I dont trust MP or bwt, I think you know that
I think aapje has dissapear from the map, so I think thats weird, even if he was not trying to hunt baddies he was participating with questions

I dont know if the Golden vs Boomsland, can give us some clues, like where people trying to save Boomslang by votting Golden, or is Boomslang a neutral and he just happend for people to place votes too?

Also rey voted for himself, but before the thread was lock, he changed his vote to Golden making it a tie, something to consider
unfurl, why don't you trust me? I remember your D1 vote for me, but if I recall correctly, you've hardly mentioned me again until now.

Re: the bolded/underlined, so... does this mean you suspect rey for that or what? You just say it's something to consider. So what do you think of it?
I said I was gonna keep open mind about you, but it does not mean I trust you, Gaining my trust is something someone ever harldy able to do
Maybe is just a clash of style, but I think you are a very agrresive player and you like to corner people so at the end they end up looking suspicios and then if they turn out they were neutral, you can wash the blood of your hand, hey they were acting certain way, is not your fault, example bass lynch, and if you are able to lynch me then I will another players that you will go, hey she was acting weird is her fault

I do want to hear what rey has to said first, why he changed his vote toward golden right before the thread was lock?

Thanks for the response

I'm on phone while waiting to get my Texas vehicle tags and such

Where did you get that impression about me that I skirt responsibility for my vote and blame the victim? I always am forthright in taking responsibility for my votes, so I find your accusation to be strange. If you're referring to Bass, I was obviously wrong about him being mafia, and have never claimed it was his fault that I voted for him. I did explain my suspicion clearly and why he received my vote and why I wasn't particularly heartbroken over his death, but I never once claimed to shirk responsibility for my vote.

Alright, folks, gotta run. Be back tonight or tomorrow night, not sure yet.

Also, here is my Boomslang response I was typing up last night and tried to submit but then the thread was locked:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:So, MP. If not Golden, who're you thinking? I've spent too much time this phase defending Golden's honor (so've you). Help me decide who should die instead. Obviously Boomslang was my prior inclination. He just made a post. Does that post make you feel anything?

It makes me feel a very small something. Indignant neutral? Hmmm...

Good question, sir. I agree we need to avoid talking about Golden and discuss actual other candidates.

I'm working on responding to some other posts in another window as we speak, but I can keep chatting here.

Regarding Boomslang... OK, here's where my mind is at. I can understand why everyone finds his indignant self-vote suspicious. I even find it somewhat suspicious. However, I know Boomslang quite well. He was one of my groomsmen at my wedding (along with birdwithteeth, Devin, and Russ).

I also know his RL is busy. Regarding his mafia meta, in past games he never was one to be a super high poster, but to contribute a couple times a cycle when he really felt he had something to say. With that said, he's somewhat of an enigma for me from a meta standpoint, since he hasn't played TOO many mafia games, and he's returning from a hiatus with this game and Angry Birds. So my judgment of him relies on RL meta, not mafia meta really.

I'm literally torn right down the middle with my thoughts on Boomslang:

1) Half of me finds the fact that Boomslang has consistently been on Golden and hardly contributed much else to be opportunistic. Part of me also sees his self-vote perhaps as a frustrated Azura or Azura teammate since it appears to me that team is absolutely trying to take advantage of Golden (assuming Golden is not on that team) and use him as a free lynch today.

2) The other half of me can actually get inside Boomslang's head and see where he's coming from, but mostly because I know him well. Boomslang is a sharp guy. He's really good at strategy games. I can see why he thinks self-voting is absolutely absurd, since he has a similar perspective to mine on the matter. Consistently with that, he voted for me after I self-voted on Day 1 of Angry Birds (but I won't mention more since that game is ongoing; I just wanted to demonstrate that fact). So I can easily see a scenario in which a neutral, or even civilian, Boomslang doesn't want to bother to pick up the WIFOM that Golden is laying down, doesn't trust him at all, and thus is voting for him. I can absolutely see this. If that is the case, and if Golden isn't bad, then Boomslang is an alternate option for mafia shenanigans, assuming this vote continues to be that specific two-man race.

If I had to pick one of the two candidates at gunpoint, I'd actually pick number 2, and assess that Boomslang is a neutral being utilized by the mafia.

Linki: ...and it appears this topic is locked.

Crap. I forgot about that. I'll just add this to the other content I'm writing in other windows, I suppose, and post it later.

Alright folks, here are my responses to things!

Spoiler: show

reywaS, no, I am not saying that at all. I think the fact that Golden has decided to lay out his intentions completely in the thread, the fact that he can't ever stop talking to anyone that mentions his name (I can relate, I have this problem too), and is such a high poster with an incredible reputation, all make him a relatively easy target in this game for mafia to take advantage of it.

I do not think that everyone has done that, since that would be impossible, and it's inevitable that some players legitimately thought that Golden killed Epi. I just think that Golden has made it easier for them to think that based on the way he's conducted himself and the fact that players are scrutinizing his many posts very heavily. Does that make sense?

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay, I agree that your question to Bass was not at all mean, manipulative, or anything like that. Baddie hunts have to happen. Bass was hardly issuing opinions on anyone all game.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 31#p170831
Spacedaisy, this is an excellent post on unfurl. I'm surprised it hasn't received even more attention than it has this cycle.

I find myself in agreement; unfurl is definitely one of my highest mafia reads at the moment.

Spoiler: show

birdwithteeth, never sure that anyone answered your question here. TinyBubbles' post count seems comparable, for the most part, to other games I've played with her and witnessed from her. I do find merit in much of the suspicion surrounding her, however, since I believe her content is different from what I've typically seen, though not drastically.

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Rey, the answer to your question is:

No, I do not think you are a shitty player, I think you are Azura.

I am going to be lynched today. Everyone will know that those who insist I'm bad are wrong, and then you should examine those people's motives and posts very carefully...

You should note that SVS said 'the civ golden she knows would fight not to get recruited bad' and then ignore the posts that point to me doing exactly that - including me trying to get epi killed. JJJ even outlined it very carefully - how me getting epi killed looks very much like an effort to not be recruited bad (this is definitely one part of my motivation). SVS next post is immediately after. She said she couldn't believe the level of my emotional manipulation, and she is very happy with her vote. She claims to be an expert in my civilian game, but she has been wilfully blind to everything I've given her to see I am playing exactly that game. SVS has mostly seemed sincere before, but she has demonstrated a particular hardheadedness that I'm beginning to find convenient. Her initial suspicion on me I found very easy to believe, but her refusal to hear any rebuttal is something I think everyone should be interested in.

Rey - I'll admit his recent self-vote makes me wonder. He has begun to sound a lot like me, telling me what I should know about him 'full well', which is a favourite of mine when I'm frustrated. Which might be a good sign for him. Nevertheless, his posts should be scrutinised. He found weak reasons to jump on me on both days, and he recently claimed I've been misrepresenting him on the matter of 'motivation' when I've been raising it over and over again for days and he hasn't responded to it once until now. It's hard to misrepresent someone on something when they don't represent themselves on it to begin with. Again, though, his explanation for what he meant by 'motivation' meshes with his actions. Maybe I've been harsh on rey.

Boomslang - I recommend everyone iso him, but particularly JJ. He has been pretty consistent on me, and his logic seems overall sound, but he hasn't talked about a lot else. Take the G-Man kill into account when you read it. Could be nothing, but I think this is very interesting when I did it.

DH - Read the number of interactions between DH and I before he declared he was scared of me, and see if any of you think that was a genuine statement. It didn't bother me because DH has said all sorts of random things today, and I took his vote for me as a neutral vote that was no skin off his nose. But then he started going after me for the difference between him being scared and a threat, and the more I pushed him on it, the less sincere I felt he was. Finally the dam burst and we got some honestly from him, which can only be a good thing. But everyone should consider whether any of you were legitimately scared of me killing you when DH said he was, and then consider how little interaction we'd actually had towards each other before then, and wonder what is going on there...

That's all. I think Dom's vote for me was really very genuine. Other votes haven't bothered me at all.

If I have the chance to vote again and think there is a realistic chance of my survival in doing so, then I will. I will say that my self vote is not that I WANT out. I really don't. It's just that I don't have a lot of faith that there is anything I can do to claw this back.

What do players think of this post by Golden, now knowing that he's unrecruited?

Spoiler: show

But... I was serious about crazy cyan.

Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?

Spoiler: show

DrW, don't sweat it! Sock bros for life in spirit.

Spoiler: show

unfurl, why don't you trust me? I remember your D1 vote for me, but if I recall correctly, you've hardly mentioned me again until now.

Re: the bolded/underlined, so... does this mean you suspect rey for that or what? You just say it's something to consider. So what do you think of it?

Okay, I'm here for just a few minutes in between tasks/errands. Should have time to post some replies.

Happy Birthday, BR!!!!

Ricochet wrote:
Roxy wrote:I hope people today will act more reasonable. For me yesterdays lynch was rather disturbing and I do not understand some of the way over the top antics that are being employed during this game. It is distracting and for me very unhelpful.

I want to hunt baddies - there have been recruits and there are recruiters. I am done hearing about how Neutrals can be bad. I am sorry but Neutrals are Neutrals. How can you be a bad Neutral? Makes no sense.

If you would like to discuss possible recruiters/recruitees then quote this and list your top two suspects that you feel fit the bill.
If the first paragraph was mainly about MP, then my personal impression of it is that his vote was forced (you'll notice his vote stayed on Golden) and then he decided to go batshit about it in sign of protest instead of having to adopt a more conventional tactic. It wasn't elegant, but he would have been in a much tighter spot making a serious case against Golden after treating him as genuine the past phases. Azura (or the punisher?) must have clearly taken advantage of this.

I'll think of the angle you're suggesting as well, in addition to scanning Golden's voters, but right now I don't feel I have strong leads as to who would be a recruiter/recruitee/recruit material.

One more quick post before I go teach.

I was not forced, but I can completely understand your perspective here, Rico. I was cursing at my computer screen big time once I saw the thread was locked and hadn't moved my vote. I somehow forgot about the fact that the thread lock was still a thing, in that moment.

That said, I think it might be worth speculating, when analyzing players' votes during D3, whether Azura would have forced players to vote for Golden, or do something else. It's clear that Azura had THREE forced votes at his disposal, which is quite the weapon. Something to keep in mind, particularly when looking at players who voted for Golden during D3.

What I would find interesting is a list of players who voted for Golden D2 but did NOT vote for him D3.

Well, we lost Golden. I'm not at all surprised that he was unercruited.

The question of whether Azura voted for and seriously pursued Golden personally, or sat on the sidelines watching it happen not committing one way or the other, or defended him staunchly, is one inevitably covered with WIFOM. Anything is possible. One thing is clear to me, however: Azura (and the other mafia team, most likely, but Azura without a doubt at all) definitely took advantage of the heat surrounding Golden to distract from them. At least now that Golden is gone and clearly not mafia, we can move on properly from the situation. Nonetheless, it's clear to me that Azura was hiding behind Golden's body for sure, using him to distract the thread more than adequately, then disposing of him. It's interesting to me that there didn't appear to be any conceited effort to keep Golden around as a distraction, leading me to believe that it's possible Azura wanted to use Golden as a distraction and then dispose of him quickly because they feared him.

I think it's definitely good to eyeball those who went after Golden and examine them for perceived sincerity (or, otherwise, nefarious opportunism), but I think we need to keep in mind that there are plenty of other players as well that could have sinister intentions. I think it might have behooved Azura to stay out of the spotlight completely by behaving like a neutral who hasn't cared to baddie hunt just yet (a few players come to mind). While I also can see S~V~S's position of Azura staunchly defending Golden, I find it hard to believe that any more than 1 player on Azura's team likely took that stance, since it's clear that the team wanted Golden out of the way as soon as possible.

I'm at campus right now, just popping in right before I teach, so I'll elaborate upon my detailed thoughts later (don't have time to now). I also have that post I was crafting in response to Jay re: Boomslang and some responses from a proper catch-up of pages 60 or so onward I was working on simultaneously, but since I'm using my campus computer I currently do not have those. So I'll post those, as well as a response to Roxy's question above (which was a good one, I agree 100% with her that we need to focus the discussion on baddie hunting) when I have some time as well. Probably this evening, whenever I'm soonest available.

I was FLOORED when my initial vote post received no attention, so that's why I ramped up the crazy so much.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Was just rolling with the fact that you said I was bad, so I lumped you in there. :P
Yeah I was just playing the part of Epignosis for a moment to see what you'd do.

I did think it was odd when you said "You're bad". I was thinking, I don't think I've ever seen Jay make such a definitive statement about someone being mafia.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP, now that you've found your sanity again for the moment, could you restate that you do indeed want Golden lynched because of his self-vote? If that's the case.
Ah, well, I suppose I can elaborate now since I've accomplished what I've wanted to with it.

I don't really want Golden lynched; I never did. Heat on Golden started to die (relatively, it still was definitely there), and if I recall correctly, the vote between him and rey was about tied when I voted. With the state of the thread the way it was, after rey's breakdown as well, I wanted to change up the direction of that specific conversation (Golden v. rey). I wanted to see how everyone would react to me flipping 180 and I specifically wanted to draw attention to how ridiculous I think many of the points and votes against Golden really are. The crusade against him has absolutely become a "GOLDEN MUST BE LYNCHED" train that has flown off the rails, intent to derail many other trains, merely because players are afraid at letting a potentially baddie Golden slip away.

I still firmly believe Golden is neutral.
I agree with all of that. Why'd you say I like crazy theories?

Was just rolling with the fact that you said I was bad, so I lumped you in there. :P

Lastly (sorry for three posts on the same topic), I think that anyone who feels as though they must lynch Golden in order for this game to move on needs to avoid such dangerous thinking. It's that kind of tunnel vision, particularly from civilians, that mafia can easily take advantage of, and I've seen it derail many lynches in past games (even my own, since I'm an easy target for this -- think back to Homestar Runner where the baddies took advantage of tremendous heat on me much like it's been on Golden here; eventually, I broke down completely, self-voted, and was lynched, but only after Days of people constantly discussing me and unwilling to ever consider that they were wrong about me).

I also think any votes that were justified by Golden self-voting were incredibly weak. Bullsuit even.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP, now that you've found your sanity again for the moment, could you restate that you do indeed want Golden lynched because of his self-vote? If that's the case.

Ah, well, I suppose I can elaborate now since I've accomplished what I've wanted to with it.

I don't really want Golden lynched; I never did. Heat on Golden started to die (relatively, it still was definitely there), and if I recall correctly, the vote between him and rey was about tied when I voted. With the state of the thread the way it was, after rey's breakdown as well, I wanted to change up the direction of that specific conversation (Golden v. rey). I wanted to see how everyone would react to me flipping 180 and I specifically wanted to draw attention to how ridiculous I think many of the points and votes against Golden really are. The crusade against him has absolutely become a "GOLDEN MUST BE LYNCHED" train that has flown off the rails, intent to derail many other trains, merely because players are afraid at letting a potentially baddie Golden slip away.

I still firmly believe Golden is neutral.

Bullzeye wrote:You all didn't happen to take a whole bunch of drugs while I was away from the thread today did you? :P Everytime I look away this place gets weirder. Catching up (again) now!

Indeed, I did try one today; it's called Crazy Cyan, you want some? Changes everything to cyan. Cool stuff.

MovingPictures07 wrote:rey, it's true you've been focused on Golden and anything surrounding him, so... what are your thoughts on some others in the game? I won't restrict you by asking about certain players.

First off, I asked rey this question and he never answered it, from what I saw.

So, rey, especially seeing as though you've moved your vote to Golden, I'd appreciate an answer to this.

nutella wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wait I just now noticed DrWilgy changed his avatar to a sock. *head explodes*
Yeah I kept thinking he was MP and getting really confused.

I went ahead and changed mine back to the Rainbow version so that you guys could distinguish the two.

And alright, it's clear I'm not being very productive today, so I'm going to just get up really early tomorrow morning to accomplish some of what I'm working on now, since my productivity rate is bullsuit.

I think I've exhausted all my crazy, so I'll work on a proper response as the evening progresses.

This thread needs more CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY CYAN!

I also want to publicly apologize for the hand I've had in making this game emotionally stressful or overburdensome for all of you. I recognize I've had quite a fair share in it.

The thread should be fun, not toxic, so let's band together and make it that way again.

Roxy wrote:The thread feels toxic.

I will be back a few minutes before poll ends as this game is no longer fun today.

I just want to pop in here a minute to say the following:

I started crazy cyan and posted my hugging stuff earlier both to help lighten the thread. I don't know if you're talking about me here, but I've reached out to you privately, so I won't further that discussion here. I only implore anyone that is feeling upset, wanting to vent, or just having trouble dealing with all of the emotions flooding the thread to contact our lovely Game Moderator.

I hope you come back soon because people should be enjoying this game. I realize I've been immensely frustrated by it myself, but I'm trying my best to post and have fun. I'm pretty sure that's what LC and BR want us to do.

Okay, now I'm leaving for real. This has been fun!

See you crazies later.

Seriously though, vote for Golden.

Roxy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Well, fuck PhD work for a little bit, I can squeeze in a few more posts.

I see what's going on here. Well played, Jay and Rox.

Well, I'm absolutely bad. Go ahead and vote for me. Golden and I are baddie teammates. I'm 100% serious. I'm voting Golden because I've sloppily tried to bus him and you all caught me. Nice job!
I have said nothing about you being bad.

I am not going through all the crap with you again.
You are itching for a fight and am not going to be the one to give it to you.

Sorry, my post should have been made in crazy cyan, but I hadn't invented it yet!

DrWilgy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I myself am suffering an existential crisis! Help!
*Wilgy enters the room, walks up to MP and pats them on the back afew times before waddling out of the room*
Beware, touching a Sock during a mainframe breakdown can result in various unintended side effects, including PTSD, Post-Traumatic-Sock Disorder.
*a paper airplane with writing on it flies through the window*

Oh no... It has begun!! MM! Unfurl! Heeeeelp!!!
OMG

BROTHER?
Yes? Brother.

I can't believe it. I've been searching for 9000 years across all of the Sock multiverses.

You've made me cry tears of... whatever this color is. It's transformed my wool color!

Devin the Omniscient wrote: Who is forcing him into this position. He has been posting and acting the same way since the whole back and forth with Epi started, and I would argue that not even Epi "forced" him to behave that way. This is supposed to be a game, and when you start being emotionally manipulative, you've taken it too far.
Also, Golden had quite a bit more votes before voting for himself on 2 separate occasions during this day phase. That alone makes me feel great about my vote.

This should have been written in bullsuit brown.

Because it's bullsuit.

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