The Syndicate

Okay, it's 4-4-3-3. Who else still hasn't voted?

As an addendum, Snow Dog, let me just add that there is a civvie explanation for both mine and Devin's behavior that I am positive are true, and that there is a civvie explanation for llama's behavior that I now firmly believe is likely true.

If players don't believe me and I get lynched, please remember this.

Okay, it's lunch time.

Hedge, I'm far from convinced of your baddieness, but I could see a possibility where you are bad, and I am NOT letting llama or myself to be lynched if at all possible.

Mongoose wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:
Thanks hedge.
Yes that is right, I had forgotten the reason for my Elo vote. Even so it doesn't make me civ. I am, but this is not proof. I was wondering, do baddie teams get rez powers in mafia games sometimes? I am not voting you Hedge. I am fairly certain you are civ even though some great and insightful players have voted for you.

Linki with Bulz. Both are memories are poor then.

I'm really worried that Hedgie is going to flip civ, so I will petition any remaining voters to not throw votes her way. I know it's astute players making a case on her, but I just don't think they are right this time.

Snowy, RE: your contemplation on whether MP/Llama/Devin are teammates -- I've thought A LOT about that too. A lot. I think they just got their horns locked in battle and didn't know when to concede. I', not sure exactly what catalyzed the cease fire though other than possibly MP having a good idea of who Llama is. But honestly, if they are playing us from one baddie team, some of the things they have done would be legit insane. Certifiably. Like Baker Act worthy. So while I'm not completely putting the idea out of my head, it's not something I'm leaning towards at this time because of those reasons.

Why are you really worried Hedge will flip civvie?

Also, where am I supposed to vote instead; what would you (or others) suggest? I am certainly not voting for llama or myself or Devin.

Snow Dog wrote:

Mongoose wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:
Thanks hedge.
Yes that is right, I had forgotten the reason for my Elo vote. Even so it doesn't make me civ. I am, but this is not proof. I was wondering, do baddie teams get rez powers in mafia games sometimes? I am not voting you Hedge. I am fairly certain you are civ even though some great and insightful players have voted for you.

Linki with Bulz. Both are memories are poor then.

I'm really worried that Hedgie is going to flip civ, so I will petition any remaining voters to not throw votes her way. I know it's astute players making a case on her, but I just don't think they are right this time.

Snowy, RE: your contemplation on whether MP/Llama/Devin are teammates -- I've thought A LOT about that too. A lot. I think they just got their horns locked in battle and didn't know when to concede. I', not sure exactly what catalyzed the cease fire though other than possibly MP having a good idea of who Llama is. But honestly, if they are playing us from one baddie team, some of the things they have done would be legit insane. Certifiably. Like Baker Act worthy. So while I'm not completely putting the idea out of my head, it's not something I'm leaning towards at this time because of those reasons.

I know it's crazy isn't it. It is something MP might do though.

Snow Dog, as much as I think it would be an awesome plan and I'd love to do it, I just do NOT have the time nor the motivation to orchestrate anything like that this game. I am insanely busy. Literally almost every single bit of free time I have goes towards posting, and nothing else. If I had BTSC there's no way I'd be able to keep up.

I know it's WIFOM, but your speculation is as well, so I have to fight WIFOM with WIFOM.

Just listen to logic and don't fall into the depths of paranoia. It's exactly waht I did with my llama case and I really regret it. I could say I won't do it in the future either, but I know that'd be a lie.

Only here for a minute literally before walking out the door to work... Snow dog, if you really believe that to be true, vote for me or llama. Go for it. But believe me that you would be making a mistake with me and that I am pretty sure you would be with llama.

If it helps, I was pretty sure of my gut on llama. But Matt f made me reconsider and I considered a different angle... And I am glad he did because my case really was a bunch of crap anyway.

BDH I appreciate your response so thank you. I have played god knows how many maia games and i am pretty familiar with nearly everyone here in sme way, some more than others. i know the bringing in other games and such seems like irrelevant to you, and understand, i was in your shoes nce, and so was everyone else. i try not to use that only as a way to convict someone, it is not fair, someones behavior shold be condemned by their atons this game. but sometimes uou can develop a gauge on other players after playing for them for so long. maybe it is wrong to use it in consideration, atually, i think it is. but it is hard not to let it nfluence your thoughts sometimes. i don't know wht else to say to try and convince you, but if you Are a civvie,please take into consideration my situation, my actions, and that it should be apparent I have no one helping me this game and that I am just trying to help.

I think hedgeowl looks bad, I will likely vote for her if I do not have to out of self defense because she seems a likely Elo teammate. Pay close attention to how she asked about llama manufacturing a case and how she says how lucky we were to get Elo. Seems very much like a frustrated Baddie.

People need to stop voting for llama! I am pretty sure that if I am right I know exactly which role he will come up as! Stop voting him!

The OCD part of me hates my iPad typos!

Anyway, see you later, mafia friends and fiends!

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Hedgeowl wrote:THIS IS YOUR CAPTAIN SPEAKING. FOR THE SAFETY OF ALL PASSENGERS PLEASE SLOW DOWN THE POSTING.

Seriously folks, it's been over 12 hours since I checked in, but I am pretty sure many of us were sleeping during that time. It makes it really hard to catch up and make a good choice voting today.

Seriously, this. I'm going to propose a wacky, out-there theory that probably isn't right. But I would like some comments and thoughts on it: Does anyone think it could be possible that a baddie team would post so much that the thread gets bogged down in posts and makes everything very convoluted? Because I'm tossing that idea around in my mind and wonder if it isn't happening here.

Llama is starting to make me think it is less likely he's a baddie. I went back to look for the one quote from Devin, and I very strongly believe he is a civvie now. I think the only way I see that changing is if someone else gets lynched and comes up with the role I have in mind.

I'm still looking at A Person and BDH for this lynch, with BDH probably being my lead candidate. I know MP mentioned his read might have been wrong, but I still think someone who continues to twist words the way BDH has is most likely bad. I had a question for BDH too, but I've suddenly forgotten it. If I remember it tonight, I will ask.

Also, Mongoose's one response to MP pinged me slightly. But I don't think that's currently enough to warrant a vote from me.

I don't think that is the case here, but it is a thought. It would be incredibly ballsy... I find it more likely baddies are not all among the very top posters considering myself, devin, and llama are up there.

Hmmmm I didn't seriously consider a person but I suppose I should. Can you summarize why he's bad for me?

And I could still vote for BDH... I do still feel he was twisting my words, and he does fail to actually do anything other than suspect me And then vanish. I guess what started holding me back was because I felt so sure of llama for a while but now believe I was wrong, and I connected BDH and llama together... Then when mongoose posted it made me rethink BDH even more... And add in the fact that BDH I new.

However, maybes will vote BDH. I see he was in the thread earlier but he never addressed my question as to why if he didn't know what BTSC was, why didn't he ask? He has actually stopped posting ltogether... Interesting indeed.

I don't want to get caught up in another fit of gut, so maybe I won't vote mongoose. Speaking logically, I think bdh's behavior seems more suspicious...but then again... maybe not...mongoose could be Elohcin's teammate.... And then there is hedgeowl as well as other players....

Eh. I am done. I will be back a lunch to vote. Lets hope to god llama or me is not in the lead... If so, keep an eye for players bandwagoning for weak reasons.

I want a damn result today. A damn good one at that.

Does anyone have any reason to believe any player might be bad based in their day 1 And or their day 2 votes or is it too difficult to tell?

I look forward to seeing what develops when I vote tomorrow.

No offense taken. My life has been absolutely nuts lately and am sure that has contributed t my wackiness and failure lol

Anyway, gotta go now, might be ale to check back n tonight... I will try to, actually. But I will definitely be here to vote at lunch tomorrow.

And for the record I do think llama seems different here still, but I really think the bandwagons on him and devin were exactly that... Bandwagons. And the way mongoose latched onto a devin vote and her post today... Really starting to bother me.

Can someone look through her posts and mAbe build a summary case on mongoose. I unfortunately don't have time nor the motivation to do so because of this iPad crap. But I really am starting to think about her actions and I think she might be the way to go. I am open to other topics though too, like hedge, or maybe even Vomps idk about him, or even others... But idk.

Okay, I am using Daisy's iPad because my laptop is still in repairs... And it sucks, so I might actually be as brief as I can be lol.

First off, thanks llama. I agree, I think I am reading a civvie devin.

I am really starting to think both llama and devin are civvies and that my gut was totally wrong about llama. I am sorry llama, I sometimes get wrapped up in the moment, but I should hve known better when you and others started poking holes in my quote case quote. I still am not sold on you being civvie, but I really hope players do not vote you today because I am seriously thinking it will be a mistake.

Mongoose's response to me pinged me so insanely much, it was like a Baddie trying to tell me what I wanted to hear. It honestly makes me want to avoid BDH for now too, especially given my shortsightedness.

I might even throw my vote to mongoose. The more I think about it, it makes so much sense. Maybe she is Elohcin's teammate. It would actually make a lot of sense, even though I wrote off the possibility because I thought it would be too obvious... U she h avoided suspicion completely, somehow, and it really makes me wonder. Similar wi hedgeowl, but I would feel way more comfortable with a mongoose vote. It is possible what llama was saying regarding mongoose is true, and the more time has gone by, the less civvie she has seemed t me. Considering I Am reevaluating my suspicions, that is where I am currently a.

Mata, regarding Vomps... I really don't know. He is quite hard to read, despite the fact that I know him. I don't feel that great about it, but I m far from convinced of his baddieness. He has pinged me slightly a few times by the way he has latched onto suspicions, but I really don't know about him at this point.

I will wait to vote until lunch at work tomorrow because I MIT have to sAve myself... Or even llama because I really think I was unfairly railroading him.

Okay, sneaking back on for just a second because this could be important.

Llama, I really need to know what you think of what Devin said at some point. Hopefully you know exactly which quote I'm talking about.

I think it's possible Devin might have false rolehinted...

I also think I want to read back through Mongoose and Hedgeowl but I really don't have time. Hopefully someone else can do this?

Anyway, really gotta go. Hopefully others pick up this discussion. I'm not so sure about llama or BDH anymore, to be frank...

Linki: Wow, welcome back, borokkuei! If you are good anyway. Look forward to what you have to say.

Have to go. Be back tomorrow to vote. Hopefully... the tide of the thread will look different.

Vompatti wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I am still reading Devin as a civvie... but want to see what others have to say about his intentions. And Mongoose and Hedgeowl and, hell, just about anything else. I've said enough now.

Personally, I thought Devin's desire to be killed was somewhat role-related but also somewhat RL-related. He and I both know how busy each of us are at the moment. He's getting married in just two months.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I still think he's bad.

Can you elaborate as to why? I would appreciate that, actually.

I am still reading Devin as a civvie... but want to see what others have to say about his intentions. And Mongoose and Hedgeowl and, hell, just about anything else. I've said enough now.

Personally, I thought Devin's desire to be killed was somewhat role-related but also somewhat RL-related. He and I both know how busy each of us are at the moment. He's getting married in just two months.

That said, I am considering that I am being played right now... but I at least now have doubt. I'm not so sure I'll be voting for llama. My case sucked balls anyway, I'll be the first to admit it; it was all based on a specific set of interpretations I made. If those interpretations are wrong, the whole thing falls apart. But I have had nothing better most of this time than my own interpretations and the thread discussion!

Also, thanks for addressing my points, JC.

Sorry to everyone for so many posts; don't worry, my lunch break is just about over... but I'm really starting to question what I was interpreting... Dammit. Now I'm not so sure.

Matt F, let's just say I was not wanting to vote Devin because I interpreted his behavior to fit a certain role. I'm no longer certain this is true, considering I very well may have been wrong in my analysis of other players.

I want to hear what you, llama, and others think of Devin and Mongoose... and Hedgeowl.

Oh man, I might have been totally wrong. Crap.

Matt F wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Okay, I think I understand now. Do you really think llama is who I might be thinking he is now, Matt? Would that actually make sense?

thellama73 wrote:

Matt F wrote: I can't explain it, but I'm suddenly getting a civvie vibe from Llama.

Thanks Matt! You rule!

Coincidence? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Shit, I don't think so either. If this is true, llama, I apologize profusely for my severe tunnel vision.

Mongoose wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Bea, I just can't fathom how anyone doesn't see BDH's posts as purposefully twisting my words. Seriously. Just read them, especially his last few, for me. They are so pretzel-twisting it’s not even funny. That is why I think he is baddie. I honestly had no read on him until just recently, and it’s become very apparent to me that this is a newbie baddie we have here; he is exhibiting so many of the classic symptoms: pretzel word manipulation, laser beam focus (refusing to even talk about anything or anyone else other than me, and coming to llama's subtle defense -- how do you think it is that he has NO opinion of llama, even after I pressed him?), and do I even have to mention how no one has asked if he is coached? I wonder why?

I will be back tomorrow to vote, but I likely will be voting llama or BDH, because I can't fathom how they are civvie this game. I tried being logical and understanding, but I really can't. Llama especially has been consistently nefarious.

I could be down for a BDH vote tomorrow. That dog, as they say, won't hunt. This is entirely speculation, but I wonder if he is coming onto you with the intensity he is in order to keep you from stumbling onto New & Fresh Ideas. I wonder if you were leading the thread down the right path and this is one baddie group's way of keeping you off that trail. What better way to do this than we a newbie, and my reason for this is dichotimized: a) we will give him the BOTD for a few days because he is new; and b) since he is new, we don't know his playstyle and idiosyncrasies, so he's harder to read.

I'm not ready to vote Llama yet. The uber-early voting was weird, but odd doesn't equal bad necessarily. But odd, yes. That whole situation has reached an Area 51 level of weirdness. He keeps dying on Day 1 in pretty much all the games we've been in together (quit doing that, by the way!) so I don't know firsthand if this is even unusual behavior for our favorite pack animal.

linki - literally a dozen posts.

All of a sudden, this post pings the shit out of me. Anyone else get the same vibe?

llama, what do you think of what Devin has been saying then?

Okay, I think I understand now. Do you really think llama is who I might be thinking he is now, Matt? Would that actually make sense?

Snow Dog wrote:I don'tknow why my [post caused such a reaction MP.I was mearly trying to give Bea infoshe askedfor refarding your suspicions of Llama.shedidn't ask aboutanyone else. And my effing space bar isplaying up againQQ!!!!!!!!!!

It's okay, Snow Dog, I'm just upset that people are misinterpreting my intentions and that I'm very likely going to die today.

What kind of message? Who would send us that kind of message? Can you elaborate a bit, without breaking any rules? I want to try to understand you.

Hold on, Matt F, I think I might know what you mean, but I'm not sure.

Sorry, I get your question now. I'm not playing because I didn't want to bother and thought I might die anyway, and didn't feel my opponent was all that baddie. I fear I can't say more than that.

Ah, quote fail!

thellama73 wrote:[quote="MovingPictures07"What do you want me to do, be like llama and refuse to discuss suspects?

I thought I was suspicion mongering and discussing too many suspects? Now I am not discussing enough. Yet another of your inconsistent and contradictory attacks on me.[/quote]

Whatever, I'm done. Think what you want. I don't trust you.

Matt F wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I will be back tomorrow to vote, but I likely will be voting llama or BDH, because I can't fathom how they are civvie this game. I tried being logical and understanding, but I really can't. Llama especially has been consistently nefarious.

MP...are you really not connecting the dots on Llama? Have you read my posts today, starting where I asked you why you weren't playing?

I'm afraid I don't understand why you asked that question, but I'm honestly a bit blinded right now. I'll look back through your posts.

Bea, I just can't fathom how anyone doesn't see BDH's posts as purposefully twisting my words. Seriously. Just read them, especially his last few, for me. They are so pretzel-twisting it’s not even funny. That is why I think he is baddie. I honestly had no read on him until just recently, and it’s become very apparent to me that this is a newbie baddie we have here; he is exhibiting so many of the classic symptoms: pretzel word manipulation, laser beam focus (refusing to even talk about anything or anyone else other than me, and coming to llama's subtle defense -- how do you think it is that he has NO opinion of llama, even after I pressed him?), and do I even have to mention how no one has asked if he is coached? I wonder why?

The fact that llama says I won’t rest until he’s dead is just SO NOT TRUE. It’s actually starting to piss me off, so I think I’m done on the topic, and leaving the thread for now after this post.

Thus, Bea, as to my suspicion of llama, I've said enough, but to summarize: I believe he has been manipulating the thread as much as possible and I tried to substantiate that with specific reasons.

Also, I have to echo the sentiment from Matt F. This game has been frustrating, overwhelming, and certainly intense at times, but it’s some of the most fun I’ve had in a mafia game in a LONG time. Really loving it. Truly.

Snow Dog wrote:MP has no evidence besides his read of him this game, Bea. Foe example his not giving the benefit of doubt to people by thinking they are bad rather than misinformed or just civs who came to wrong conclusions.

That's ironic, considering I haven't even voted for llama, that I am trying to encourage discussion on llama AND OTHERS, that I said multiple times I am not even sure of llama, just that it is the best thing I have at the moment and what I am currently feeling, strongly so. What do you want me to do, be like llama and refuse to discuss suspects?

I'm honestly just flabbergasted at all of this. I've said everything I can on the matter. If players still think that I am the one that's being closed-minded, then I don't know what else to say; I find it ridiculous.

In fact, I’m done with this. Everyone, just vote for me already. At least it will clear my intentions so that the civvies will gain information. I really think it would be foolish to lose my role, but it seems certain players in this game won’t rest until they get me dead and misrepresent all of my intentions, so I’m done. If you really want me to elaborate, I’ve done MORE than enough, read back through my posts. There’s no point in me saying anymore about llama or anyone else.

Apparently I can't ever play as a civvie without players consistently misreading my intentions from Day 1, so let's end this. Vote for me now and all of my intentions will be revealed. If you really doubt my intentions, vote for me.

I will be back tomorrow to vote, but I likely will be voting llama or BDH, because I can't fathom how they are civvie this game. I tried being logical and understanding, but I really can't. Llama especially has been consistently nefarious.

Also, JC, it goes without saying, but I wanted to specify all due respect when I use the word "ridiculous". I know someone took offense when I said that in the past, so I wanted to clarify I do not mean it to insult or offend. I suppose "uncalled for" is better.

JC, here are the few posts where I was questioning your intentions as sincere or not:

juliets wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

juliets wrote:llama in the games I've been a part of where people have info it is specific roles and not whole teams, however, the baddies that have the info tell their whole team. That doesn't mean everyone votes there of course because then once you've found one baddie you could go back to the day 0 vote and undo them all. I also may have misinterpreted what you were saying so this post may be off base.

That's a good point, but who says any baddies have info? Maybe only select civvies do. All I know for sure is that I do not.

That definitely would be different and perhaps daisyesque.

Here you demonstrate knowledge of what daisyesque would entail. Yet later you ask this:

juliets wrote:Does daisy have a reputation for giving obscure clues to her players through her posts? I know not to expect the expected with her but has anyone played her games enough to notice obscure clues in her posts? This post is different from any post I have seen from a host so I really don't know what it means.

Seems contradictory.

juliets wrote:Just to step in with my two cents, I can't add anything new to all these posts but I'll weigh in on several things.

First, I would also really, really like to hear from Hedge on her vote for Vomps. I do think it was most likely an attempt at a save but maybe there is something I'm not thinking of that would make it seem less nefarious.

I don't think Mongoose is bad at this point and think her inclusion of Elo in her remarks was not remarkable. Mongoose is a smart player and that is too much of a mistake for her to have made in my mind.

MP I'm having a small ping about you using Vomps to see what would happen - maybe i just didn't understand - and trying to get us to go down that path of 6 civvies. You've played and hosted enough to know how unbalanced that would be. With all that said though I know you are going through a lot right now and really this is the last thing you should be concerned with so I don't think I'm going to consider you until things are back to normal.

Also, I have no idea about llama in this game yet. It's still early even though there have been a beejillion posts.

Speaking of a beejillion posts I have to be honest and say I'm having a hard time keeping up with this game. It's just taking me a little time to get the pace down with the other two games I'm playing.

Then here you say you think Hedge’s vote was “most likely an attempt at a save”, but later on you don’t vote her. In fact, you agree she sounds completely sincere, then don't mention her again.

Also, you said you’re having a small ping about me, apparently, and yet you have no idea about llama. Just something to note, nothing for you to address.

juliets wrote:Before I change my mind again I'm voting for someone laying low - gleam. Gleam, see this as a request that you come into the game and participate more. We need all the thoughts we can get. And I am not fond of those who lay low (ask DP!). I mean that only from a game perspective.

Then I found your Day 2 vote to be possibly insincere. Especially since you seemed to indicate a small ping on me, but then why would you vote for someone on whom you had no ping over someone on whom you had a small ping, only to say later on that you didn’t find me most suspicious?

That said, I don’t think I’ll vote for you today, but I think players should keep a sharp eye on you, as well as others that I’ve mentioned previously. I would appreciate if you could address these points.

Some final thoughts before bed. Sorry for posting so much, but you won't see much of me from hereon forward, as the only times I'll even be around are likely at lunch, and seeing as though the baddies obviously want me gone this game, I might die this lynch. It's another reason I want to voice as much as I can, even though I didn't intend on even coming close to this much.

Anyone notice BDH started posting a ton more once he had been called out? And that he still refuses to say pretty much anything about anyone except for me?

S~V~S wrote: Linki@ MP~ Um, I was a civ. And I tend to have tunnelvision issues as a civ. Maybe that is why people tend to view me as a civ when I have those issues Since I, like, am one~

S~V~S, that was my point. Llama gave you the BOTD right off the bat in the game, yet he refuses to give it to me here, and yet you railroaded Nev way more intensely than I am him, especially since I’m not even sure I’ll be voting him.

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote: That's entirely untrue. If you are a civvie, I don't want you dead. I have presented reasons as to why I am leaning towards you not being one. I strongly believe these to be true. I have asked others for opinions not only you but on a plethora of game topics. You yourself have said in other games how civvies can be wrong about civvies all the time. Why are you so convinced I am baddie, therefore, that you threw your vote to me so early like this? It is so incredibly unlike you.

The more you post, the more evident it becomes that you're only trying to misrepresent my intentions. I don't understand any other motivation for a civvie llama to act like you have in so many ways. I've specifically brought up all of these points, and yet you refuse to address them. You specifically were reading S~V~S as a civvie in Mario, despite her tunnel vision on Nevinera, and yet you consider absolutely no scenario in which I could be a civvie here?

I am not "so convinced" that you are a baddie. What I am convinced of is that you will not believe I am civvie until one of us is dead. Since I am not 100% on you and I am 100% on myself, I would rather it be you than me. The vote is purely one of self-defense. You've been coming after me with both barrels since day 1, so I do not believe that I am misrepresenting your intentions. If I am, I'm sorry, but that's how it looks from where I'm sitting.

You keep saying I refuse to address your points. Maybe you'll have to put them in a bullet list for me, because I have not seen any points that I have not addressed. Of course there is a scenario where you could be civ, but I could say that about absolutely everyone in the game, so it is somewhat meaningless.

Frankly, I hope neither of us gets lynched, but if it has to be one of us, better you than me.

So you're voting out of self-defense and yet you have received zero votes?

Also, I didn't even mention you as suspicious until Day 2. I mentioned you ONCE before that and it was only to ask you for clarification regarding your posts in succession. If you don't believe me, refer to my post here: http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 097#p33097

Should I be like you and say "Lies."?

I have given you many points that you have not addressed. I asked you more than once about why you so clearly gave S~V~S the BOTD in Mario and yet you do not give that to me here, despite the fact that, as civvies, we both are known for such behavior. I asked you who you find to be suspicious, and you haven't really addressed that other than your bogus A Person BS earlier this day period, and now your vote for me -- even though apparently it is out of self-defense. I call BS.

BigDamnHero wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:So what if they haven't or wouldn't? I am merely speculating. What good are the civvies to each other if they don't communicate and speculate? I never outed any player once, ever, and I never proclaimed my opinions to be fact. The baddies can do what they want. Lest you forget, there are also civvies that can protect other players in this game.

You still have not exactly told me why you find me to be such a baddie. Can you seriously not think of any civvie explanation for my behavior or are you just THAT narrow-minded? You realize there are 20something other players playing this game and yet you refuse to actually suspect any of them except for me, now for three days straight?

Besides, you play your way. I play mine. And that makes me a baddie? Before you try and argue that I am declaring you to be a baddie, think again. You have already voted. I have not. Additionally, that is not the reason I find you bad.

I am orchestrating against llama? That is rich. I am the one actually attempting to throw out discussion on a wide variety of topics, and I even stated in my post I wasn't even sure I would be voting for llama. I had other discussion points. What do you have? Just MP, MP, and MP. Someone in your BTSC must have told you how easy it was to get me lynched.

That third paragraph is a pretty good example of why I find you to be a baddie. You make the supposition that you haven't declared me to be a baddie, and then just one sentence removed from that you say that you DO suspect me to be a bad guy. All of your posts this entire game have been filled with such wishy-washy, flip-flopping comments from you. I don't see any reason behind it other than as a potential failsafe in the event that one of your many far-stretching theories blows-up in your face you have something to go back to stating you were never fully commited to the idea.

I'm not sure what BSTC is but the only person I've been talking to is Daisy and I can say with the uttmost confidence and certainty that she is neither a civilian or a bad guy!

Declared as in an a definitive declaration. You realize that a declaration indicates a fact. Like I would say: BDH is a baddie. I have not once said that to be a fact. I have merely supposed the matter and thrown it out as a topic of discussion. I may strongly believe that to be true, but I never once said it was a fact.

Classic pretzel word twisting here. I have to give you credit.

Also, LOL at your last comment (with no offense meant, of course, I’ve really enjoyed playing with you; you’re awesome), and then a serious question: If you didn’t know what it meant, why didn’t you ask?

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

BigDamnHero wrote:My main suspicion still lies with Moving Pictures and the following post he made makes it even worse for him in my eyes:

He started off the game worrying about the TINIEST chance that a civilian role would be compromised during the "Day 1 info" discussions, and now he's basically throwing out players names and the civilian roles he believes them to be! Yes, he gives potential other baddie options, but his entire ideology/strategy seems to be going back and forth and all over the place.

I think MP stumbled a bit, and threw out what turned out to be a bad discussion on Day 1. But it got people into the game and got things rolling, and sometimes, you can get baddies to reveal too much or make mistakes early on. Not always, but sometimes. I've followed his train of thought much more clearly now, and I think that even with his lack of time, he's doing much better with some of his ideas now.

Also, he's not connecting people directly to roles. He's talking about situations more like: "If Person A is X role, then that could mean..." It's speculation and theories, not trying to pin certain people as civvie roles.

Bingo.

S~V~S wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

A Person wrote: It also wouldn't make sense if i was trogdor, because I'd highly doubt there is any one hut that's completely empty, and from the way I understand it, any kill is good for him.

Agreed. I don't think you are Trogdor.

I don't like how this read at ALL. You spent most of that page and some of the one before going back and forth about how AP's logic didn't make any sense, and you could consider voting for him, to "Oh, I don't think you're Trogdor at all! " So either you think he's on a baddie team or civvie. To me however, this reads like you think he's civvie. I'm starting to wonder if there were more nefarious reasons for your survival.

Be back with more later.

Did I miss where he was outed as a baddie? While I agree that he has said some odd things, I do not think that that makes A Person a confirmed baddie, yet you speak as if he is. Since you are so sure he is bad, do you plan on voting for AP today?

Why do you think disagreeing with MP makes someone bad?

I'm sorry, what does this even mean? Who is disagreeing with me?

If you mean BDH, then I don't understand how that's a "disagreement". It very much seems to me he is misrepresenting my words on purpose. I can’t fathom how anyone, especially a mafia vet, interprets that as a disagreement, but I'm trying to be as open-minded as possible, so if you can clarify, that'd be great.

If that’s not what you mean, then can you elaborate in that instance as well?

Dom wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, yes, it should have been in hyperbole italics. Lol.

Wow, another vote? Lovely. My case is consistently lacking in substance? And yet you choose to throw your vote my way SO early, with so much more discussion to be had, and refuse to address so many of my other points and discussion topics?

If you truly are a civvie, llama, you are not helping our cause this game, my friend. I'm sad to say it, though it doesn't necessarily mean you deserve to die. I, for one, am actually going to attempt to help my cause as much as possible, as I have been, and I am still refraining from voting. Because why vote so early when there's still so much time?

Anyone else find this wording a tiny bit unsettling?

Dom, take my wording as you will. My cause is the civvie one. I shouldn't even need to come out and say that.

juliets wrote:I don't know if I am going to be able to continue this game or not. Don't get me wrong, it's all kinds of interesting but I can't get my head wrapped around any one person being bad and I think it's because there is just too much talk. I'm going to try again tomorrow to sort through what I've read tonight and see if i can get a handle on it. If not, I will ask to be replaced.

One thing that would help a great deal is if we could keep the OT green to a minimum. Adding that on top of heavy and contentious talk just gets me stuck in "what the hell are they talking about". Coded messages have been passed in OT green in other games I've participated in so I always pay attention to them. I don't mean get rid of all of it - I don't want to be Debbie Downer but just less of it - please.

Ok, I'm getting a good nights sleep and will face this game again tomorrow.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. It's only Day 3. We've lynched only one person. Results will follow. I would request that you continue playing this game as I really enjoy your presence in it. Why ask to be replaced just because you don't know who is baddie?

I willingly admit this is one of the most active and intense games I’ve ever seen in years of playing mafia. I don’t even know why it is the case. I think it’s been exciting. Yes, at times it’s overwhelming, and even I felt it way too strongly myself this morning and at other times, but I know the hostess, myself, and others would love for you to stick it out.

This goes for anyone else as well. If you're not caught up or feeling overwhelmed, it's normal. First few days are always tough, especially in a crazy instance like this one when players have been so talkative (myself included).

Also, JC, I'll post the instances you requested in my following post, and then I'm out of here.

juliets wrote:MP, you said in your post you felt i was not sincere. Could you pull up a couple of posts that show me what you are talking about?

Sure, I can do that. However, I've spent WAY too much time on this game already... Let me see if I can get to this at lunch tomorrow. It's almost 8, I really need to go now.

thellama73 wrote:Fair enough, SVS.

I do want to say that I really think having a fresh pair of eyes on this game is useful and I am taking your comments so far very seriously. Thanks for that.

MP, the reason I voted for you so early is that you have made it clear that you will not rest until one of us is dead. I don't want it to be me. I leave it to other people to decide what they think of the discussion and who they want to believe. I'm not helping the civvie cause? Neither are you, with your llama blinders on.

That's entirely untrue. If you are a civvie, I don't want you dead. I have presented reasons as to why I am leaning towards you not being one. I strongly believe these to be true. I have asked others for opinions not only you but on a plethora of game topics. You yourself have said in other games how civvies can be wrong about civvies all the time. Why are you so convinced I am baddie, therefore, that you threw your vote to me so early like this? It is so incredibly unlike you.

The more you post, the more evident it becomes that you're only trying to misrepresent my intentions. I don't understand any other motivation for a civvie llama to act like you have in so many ways. I've specifically brought up all of these points, and yet you refuse to address them. You specifically were reading S~V~S as a civvie in Mario, despite her tunnel vision on Nevinera, and yet you consider absolutely no scenario in which I could be a civvie here?

Linkitis with Mongoose: Thanks.

Mongoose, I see you lurking. Thoughts, please?

THOUGHTS. I NEED THEM.

Also, Devin, I will consider a vote for Vompatti. I think this lynch will be incredibly telling regardless of who ends up going. We have certainly a lot to discuss. I want to discuss BWT, Hedgeowl, and others as well, and am curious to see what the other players have to bring to the table, despite obviously wanting to hear from players regarding BDH and llama.

S~V~S, yes, it should have been in hyperbole italics. Lol.

Wow, another vote? Lovely. My case is consistently lacking in substance? And yet you choose to throw your vote my way SO early, with so much more discussion to be had, and refuse to address so many of my other points and discussion topics?

If you truly are a civvie, llama, you are not helping our cause this game, my friend. I'm sad to say it, though it doesn't necessarily mean you deserve to die. I, for one, am actually going to attempt to help my cause as much as possible, as I have been, and I am still refraining from voting. Because why vote so early when there's still so much time?

BigDamnHero wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Right, because everything I've done reeks of baddie behavior, according to you?

You refuse to address my logical argument. If I can speculate to those conclusions, who is to say the baddies haven't? How does that make me baddie?

Oh, right, you can't answer that, because your suspicion of me is illogical.

Yes, anything you CAN think of, others CAN think of as well, but that doesn't mean they HAVE or WILL. Plus I find it outright dangerous to be claiming/assigning (whether correctly or not) civilian roles publicly. If you were Homestar or Strong Bad or Pom Pom or Bubs, for examples, would you want someone throwing those names out there in conjunction with you or would you rather just leave some things unsaid so as not to make you any more of a target?

And to answer you're question: I don't think either of us are bad. I think you've seized an opportunity to link me (loosely, might I add) with the person you've already been orchestrating a smear campaign against in hopes of drawing suspicion away from yourself. Then, should either of get lynched, you can then say "I may've been wrong about one of them, but I'm sure the remaining one is a bad guy," should we turn out to be civilian or "HA! I told you so...now we need to lynch BDH next" if Llama should happen to turn out to be a bad guy.

So what if they haven't or wouldn't? I am merely speculating. What good are the civvies to each other if they don't communicate and speculate? I never outed any player once, ever, and I never proclaimed my opinions to be fact. The baddies can do what they want. Lest you forget, there are also civvies that can protect other players in this game.

You still have not exactly told me why you find me to be such a baddie. Can you seriously not think of any civvie explanation for my behavior or are you just THAT narrow-minded? You realize there are 20something other players playing this game and yet you refuse to actually suspect any of them except for me, now for three days straight?

Besides, you play your way. I play mine. And that makes me a baddie? Before you try and argue that I am declaring you to be a baddie, think again. You have already voted. I have not. Additionally, that is not the reason I find you bad.

I am orchestrating against llama? That is rich. I am the one actually attempting to throw out discussion on a wide variety of topics, and I even stated in my post I wasn't even sure I would be voting for llama. I had other discussion points. What do you have? Just MP, MP, and MP. Someone in your BTSC must have told you how easy it was to get me lynched.

Llama and BDH are baddie teammates. Thoughts?

I especially love how BDH said if I lead the lynch against him I will "definitely regret it". Classic.

BigDamnHero wrote:@Dom- Upon your suggestion, I've gone back to try and read through llama's posts. This is one I stumbled across which I find to be both interesting as well as having a valid point:

thellama73 wrote:Every time MP posts he brings up my name, I answer his concerns, he says he thinks my response is reasonable, he disappears for a while, and then he comes back with another post suspecting me. I'm really beginning to feel like is trying to do me in because he knows I am civvie.

Now I'm not sure what you find odd about someone being dismissive when accusations are flung against them. If someone is a civilian, of course they're going to throw out those accusations, and if a person is a bad guy they'll do the same thing so as not to compromise their identity.

@MovingPictures: I've got nerves of steel! Feel free to lead the lynch against me if you wish. If I were to be taken down, you and anyone who voted for me will most definitely regret it...unlesss you are bad guys in which case you'll be having a private party somewhere I'm sure.

I've been convinced ever since our exchange on Day 1 that you're a bad guy and you've done nothing to make me change my mind. I'm going to go ahead and cast my vote for you again because that's just how certain I am in my convictions towards you.

Right, because everything I've done reeks of baddie behavior, according to you?

You refuse to address my logical argument. If I can speculate to those conclusions, who is to say the baddies haven't? How does that make me baddie?

Oh, right, you can't answer that, because your suspicion of me is illogical.

I should be put in Mafia Rehab. God dammit. I realized I won’t have a computer other than during lunch at work until Wednesday unless I steal Daisy’s iPad, and I absolutely refuse to use that blasted thing for mafia unless my life depends on it, so here I am, again, but will vanish again hereafter.

Devin, I would ask you if you are sure you wanted that information to be known, but considering you’ve already done it, it’s an irrelevant question. I understand your intentions, and applaud you for making such a ballsy move if you are indeed telling the truth. I am inclined to believe you and don’t intend on voting your way today, but regardless I suppose we’ll see what happens thereafter, won’t we?

Thanks for your input, Dom. I agree, he seems way more dismissive than he is when a civvie, where he is so willing to consider all the options. He has consistently NOT been like that this game, so if he is a civvie, I have no clue what he is doing.

S~V~S, I disagree; what's wrong with speculating in thread, especially when so many players were willing to conclude that llama was likely civvie, and I believed him not to be? No guts, no glory, right? Though I have no read on you whatsoever. And I implore you to read my content when you do have a chance; perhaps you will find something for you and I to agree on... But probably not. Regardless, I feel it would be worthwhile, as I personally think I have some interesting things to say.

As to A Person mentioning that he missed his night PM, I believe that’s absurd to conclude that’s why we saw a missing NK from TGS. It is possible, I suppose, but considering it’s entirely speculation and I have no reason to believe A Person is bad and in fact he was being used as a scapegoat, I find it questionable. Besides, what kind of baddie would come out and say that in thread?

In fact, Mata, my eyes are turned firmly to your direction now as well, because you refused to listen to my explanation of my D1 Vompatti vote, then voted for me D2 nonetheless, and still thereafter refused to address it. You have also been all over the place with your suspicions. So what do you think of me now and of my thoughts on llama, or even anyone else other than AP? Nothing to say?

Same question to ALL of you. No more free passes. I want opinions, dammit!

BigDamnHero wrote:My main suspicion still lies with Moving Pictures and the following post he made makes it even worse for him in my eyes:

MovingPictures07 wrote:When he could have seriously considered he would be the one to die. Now, ask yourself, if Devin were Crackotage, and you were in his shoes, would you use your lynch stop, especially if you had two? Damn sure I know I would.

It's even possible that Devin is Homsar and knew he will never be lynched. It would actually make a lot of sense given that he is playing a wacky game and posting a ton. Think about it: he is not exactly trying to draw attention to himself, but he seems to think it is harmless.

On the flipside, it is also possible Devin is Cheerleader. But for Devin to be Homsar and Cheerleader, there had to be at least some level of vote manipulation taking place here. The only way that could happen would be the civvie role that has two votes cast his or her second vote for Devin OR one of the secrets. Therefore, those possibilities are less likely.

I think the most plausible explanations for what happened on Day 2 are either of the following:
- Devin decided to stop the lynch, fearing he would die, even though by the end of the period he did not have the most votes.
- llama is Homesar or the Cheerleader. However, his behavior does not seem to match either of these, so if I had to guess, definitely I would say the Cheerleader. Also, I still believe him to be bad, perhaps even more so now, but more on that later.

There are many possibilities, in fact, but I believe both of those to be the most likely.

He started off the game worrying about the TINIEST chance that a civilian role would be compromised during the "Day 1 info" discussions, and now he's basically throwing out players names and the civilian roles he believes them to be! Yes, he gives potential other baddie options, but his entire ideology/strategy seems to be going back and forth and all over the place.

Wow, looks like I really touched a nerve. Ha. Really funny. I love when baddies reveal themselves. At least you played a great first game, but you’ve solidly exposed your intentions here.

So the fact that I mentioned what I believe to be correct means I am giving the baddies information that they could not have deduced on their own, especially with more than one mind? If I came to this conclusion, who is to say they haven’t? And what makes my conclusion correct anyway?

And you have no opinion whatsoever on llama or anyone else? Interesting, I say.

Go on, vote for me, baddie. You know you want to. I’M IN YOUR AREA.

I might actually prefer to vote BDH over llama after this... Or do I?

Devin the Omniscient wrote:

BigDamnHero wrote:My main suspicion still lies with Moving Pictures and the following post he made makes it even worse for him in my eyes:

MovingPictures07 wrote:When he could have seriously considered he would be the one to die. Now, ask yourself, if Devin were Crackotage, and you were in his shoes, would you use your lynch stop, especially if you had two? Damn sure I know I would.

It's even possible that Devin is Homsar and knew he will never be lynched. It would actually make a lot of sense given that he is playing a wacky game and posting a ton. Think about it: he is not exactly trying to draw attention to himself, but he seems to think it is harmless.

On the flipside, it is also possible Devin is Cheerleader. But for Devin to be Homsar and Cheerleader, there had to be at least some level of vote manipulation taking place here. The only way that could happen would be the civvie role that has two votes cast his or her second vote for Devin OR one of the secrets. Therefore, those possibilities are less likely.

I think the most plausible explanations for what happened on Day 2 are either of the following:
- Devin decided to stop the lynch, fearing he would die, even though by the end of the period he did not have the most votes.
- llama is Homesar or the Cheerleader. However, his behavior does not seem to match either of these, so if I had to guess, definitely I would say the Cheerleader. Also, I still believe him to be bad, perhaps even more so now, but more on that later.

There are many possibilities, in fact, but I believe both of those to be the most likely.

He started off the game worrying about the TINIEST chance that a civilian role would be compromised during the "Day 1 info" discussions, and now he's basically throwing out players names and the civilian roles he believes them to be! Yes, he gives potential other baddie options, but his entire ideology/strategy seems to be going back and forth and all over the place.

I know! He could at lease get my role right! My actual role isn't even mentioned here!

Also, this is so lolworthy. You are awesome.

I am reminded why I continue my relationship of befreindship with you, good sir.

Here literally only for a second because I knew llama would respond. My responses are in light purple. Tried to use my phone but oh my god how terrible that is. Then I need to leave and stop procrastinating things, seriously.

thellama73 wrote:Wow, that's a lot to address. I will do my best.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Dom wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I can't believe people are taking that crazy, rambling post by Matt F seriously. It's just a bunch of imagined conversations that might have taken place in BTSC. Anyone can do that. I can imagine Matt F in BTSC saying "dude! I'm going to make a long and rambling post linking llama and dom and juliets and it will be hilarious." See? Easy.

I am not bad, I have no BTSC, and if I am lynched I suspect there will be much han wringing and gnashing of teeth among the civilians. I beg my friends in the animal sanctuary not to let this injustice stand.

Also, why are BDH and BWT telling ghost stories?

Dom agrees with me here. I pointed out this post of llama's in a previous post of mine, but thought it deserved to be looked at again. Why would a civvie llama say this? It pings me greatly as completely insincere. Llama, of all people, should recognize that Matt F is behaving the way he is, and that he very well could be a civvie.

In fact, llama has recognized this fact in many games before, and even gave S~V~S the BOTD big time in Mario when she was railrorading Nevinera (all three of which were civvies, it should be said), and realized that civvies can be wrong about civvies.

He doesn't seem to be displaying this bit of information here.

I still don't understand what the accusation against that post of mine is. I do not really think Matt F is bad and have not accused him of being bad. I think he is wrong. I was criticizing the people who were reading his rambling post and going "yeah, great point." It wasn't a great point. It comtained nothing but speculation.

You don't think he's bad? Yet you accused him of "making up excuses for when you flip civvie" (not exact quote, but close enough, don't have time to pull it). Why would a civvie have to make up excuses? Bullshit.

MovingPictures07 wrote: Additionally, llama seems to think that civvies can't make logical fallacies:

What benefit would A Person have in coming out in the thread and speculating as he has? It's possible he is Trogdor, but the WIFOM associated with that is so strong, and any mafia veteran knows that it's better to NOT attract suspicion when you have an SK role like that, especially in a game like this where Trogdor cannot be traced by whom he kills. He only picks a hut and it kills someone in that hut, so he can't even be traced by his kill targets, something he can use to his advantage. So why would Trogdor come out in the thread and try to influence the way anyone is behaving with regards to Trogdor PMs? There is no reason for him to.

There is a civvie and a baddie explanation for A Person's behavior. Having known A Person very well over the years, I can testify that it seems completely normal for him, and I do not understand how it is telling of alignment.

Yet llama jumps out of the gate and tries to start this bullshit suspicion of him. Llama comes up with all kinds of wacky theories, but they usually have a twisted sense of logic behind them.

What kind of logic is behind this?

I specifically said that AP might have just been wrong and not baddie, and I have not decided to vote for him yet. If he had just said "yeah, I was wrong" I would probably have let it drop, but his defenses make no sense. You don't understand why a baddie would benefit from encouraging people not to send in hut PMs? Really? If they could convince people to go along with the plan, they could drastically increase their team's chances of surviving Trogdor.

You're suspicion mongering. You did the same damn thing with Mongoose and Elohcin. It's a subtle "oh let me draw attention to this person so that I keep it off myself and my teammates". Don't try to tell me you haven't tried setting this up already for A Person. It's more of the "oh, but I didn't say they were baddie, did I? I left open a possibility for them not to be!" It doesn't matter. You said you might even vote for him, correct? Wouldn't that mean you believe him to be bad strongly enough at this point to consider voting for him, even in the face of all the evidence that we have to go off of like voting records? And yet you threw out you were considering putting a vote on A Person for THIS?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

thellama73 wrote: I think I'm leaning towards Lizzy at this point. She is playing radically different than both other games I've had with her (and I know she is around because she signed up for Sherlock.)

linki Lizzy: thanks for proving my point.

This is the ONLY time he's mentioned Lizzy. He has said nothing about her ever before or since. Don't believe me? Go through his posts.

Lies.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 354#p32354

Okay, so I missed one post. You have 128. I must have missed it; I apologize. My point still stands. Your suspicions are all over the freaking place

The reasoning behind all your "evidence" against me this game seems uncharacteristically weak for you, MP. You are usually better than this.


You think so? Yeah, that could be due to the fact that nearly all of the reasons I feel you are bad are not evidence. They are my interpretations. Way to misrepresent my intentions and try to discredit me.

And you wonder why I am usually better at this? How many times have we played a game together and I was a lone civvie? Once? Out of god knows how many? Hmmm. I wonder why I'm usually better than this then.

Now, as to my current suspicions and thoughts... Llama is at the top of my list. If I had to vote now, I would be voting for him again today. I was largely unsure of him before, but something in my gut is making me feel just more and more sure that he is not on our side this game. That said, I am not positive at all, still, as it's almost impossible to be, especially at this stage -- so I'm glad I don't have to vote now. I'm trying to avoid railroading him, but I'm really, really feeling strong about him, so I'm trying to balance the OMG civvie gut "LLAMA MUST BE BAD" Alex with the rational and cautious Alex. It is proving to be difficult. Yes, my mafia self is bi-polar, or something.

There are others as well... I am very wary of juliets, Vompatti, and even Devin, as I'm just unable to decipher their intentions. Additionally, I am starting to wonder if we have been psyched out by Hedgeowl. There was this huge movement against her, orchestrated by llama, with many players saying she seemed most worthy of a vote, and then... NO votes on Day 2. Absolutely none. And hardly anyone is talking about her now. So maybe I was wrong in her intentions and she is lying her ass off, and well. I don't know.

Another thing is I think we should look more closely at players who latched onto Devin and llama yesterday.

It's possible I might go any of those ways, or as the day develops, something else more strong will come up.

I must admit, BWT is starting to catch my eye as well. He voted for llama yesterday and his thoughts seem very with-the-crowd and flip floppy. That being said, I have a terrible track record of reading him, despite knowing him very well IRL, so I really just want to open up discussion on him and see what others think.

I am almost tempted to vote Devin, but I fear he is not the unlynchable baddie, and I really don't know what he is doing here. I don't think we should waste our time on him regardless of whether he is lying or civvie or baddie or whatever.

Additionally, quiet players need to speak more. I might even be tempted to go with Gleam or DFaraday and others, or to at the very least throw their names around. I very highly doubt I'll vote any way here, but hey, anything could happen.

I strongly feel that Matt F is not a Teen Girl Squad baddie in this game. I could be wrong, as he is very hard to read, but of anyone in the game, I think I "trust" him the most at this moment. He could very well be a Blue Laser or Trogdor, and so I'm far from advocating his civvieness, but I want to say this because I find it weird there was a bit of a push in his direction towards the end of Day 2 and such. Whether it was by civvies or baddies or both, I think it might be misguided.

FWIW, I am seeing normal A Person behavior, nothing to tell me whether he is civvie or baddie. I honestly have no idea. I find it odd llama is beginning to make a mountain out of a molehill already here (more on this later).

Regardless, I really, really want feedback on everything. I don't want to railroad llama or anyone else, so if you guys think I'm way off here or if you agree or have anything to say at all, I don't care, just tell me.




Despite what llama has said, I have pointed out quotes or instances from him that make me feel uneasy. Considering he has 128 posts this game and I don't have all the time in the world, I am not going to do my classic-going-through-his-posts-and-telling-you-guys-how-suspicious-he-is-case-building-thing that I do as a civvie (and try to copycat as a baddie), especially since I believe that leads to my own tunnel vision.

However, I do believe llama is manipulating the thread, and he's doing a fantastic job of it. His suspicions, in reality, are all over the place. He also is trying to appear as logical as possible, when in reality, he is exhibiting occasional behavior that is blatantly in the face of what he should know from playing mafia now for as long as he has (and he has exhibited knowledge of these items in other games). This is the clincher for me. It just seems so off. And lastly, especially if Devin is a civvie, the way things went down in Day 2 don't look very good for llama, it must be said, but that's just my take on the matter. He comes up with a pretty arbitrary reason to vote for Devin, tries to make it seem as convincing as possible, then BOOM, votes bandwagon onto him out of nowhere. It struck me as so insincere, all of it.

Dom wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I can't believe people are taking that crazy, rambling post by Matt F seriously. It's just a bunch of imagined conversations that might have taken place in BTSC. Anyone can do that. I can imagine Matt F in BTSC saying "dude! I'm going to make a long and rambling post linking llama and dom and juliets and it will be hilarious." See? Easy.

I am not bad, I have no BTSC, and if I am lynched I suspect there will be much han wringing and gnashing of teeth among the civilians. I beg my friends in the animal sanctuary not to let this injustice stand.

Also, why are BDH and BWT telling ghost stories?

Dom agrees with me here. I pointed out this post of llama's in a previous post of mine, but thought it deserved to be looked at again. Why would a civvie llama say this? It pings me greatly as completely insincere. Llama, of all people, should recognize that Matt F is behaving the way he is, and that he very well could be a civvie.

In fact, llama has recognized this fact in many games before, and even gave S~V~S the BOTD big time in Mario when she was railrorading Nevinera (all three of which were civvies, it should be said), and realized that civvies can be wrong about civvies.

He doesn't seem to be displaying this bit of information here.

Additionally, llama seems to think that civvies can't make logical fallacies:

thellama73 wrote:

A Person wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I've thought about the hut problem some more. The best strategy is not merely to send in a PM. The best strategy is to convince everyone else not to send in a PM, and then send in one yourself. This drastically increases the chance of survival.

For this reason, I may consider a vote for A Person today.

That would be a good idea, but since it's done in secret I'd have no way of knowing if people actually do it.

It doesn't matter. Every person who doesn't send in a PM increases the survival chances of those who do. So even if only a few people followed your advice, it would still benefit you.

What benefit would A Person have in coming out in the thread and speculating as he has? It's possible he is Trogdor, but the WIFOM associated with that is so strong, and any mafia veteran knows that it's better to NOT attract suspicion when you have an SK role like that, especially in a game like this where Trogdor cannot be traced by whom he kills. He only picks a hut and it kills someone in that hut, so he can't even be traced by his kill targets, something he can use to his advantage. So why would Trogdor come out in the thread and try to influence the way anyone is behaving with regards to Trogdor PMs? There is no reason for him to.

There is a civvie and a baddie explanation for A Person's behavior. Having known A Person very well over the years, I can testify that it seems completely normal for him, and I do not understand how it is telling of alignment.

Yet llama jumps out of the gate and tries to start this bullshit suspicion of him. Llama comes up with all kinds of wacky theories, but they usually have a twisted sense of logic behind them.

What kind of logic is behind this?

This suspicion of his really bothers me because you would think llama would want to assist in looking at players who are bandwagoning, or something more concrete. This suspicion is just so ridiculous IMO.

thellama73 wrote:

Mongoose wrote:

Captain Bunny Killer wrote: Sorry, I meant no offense. I definitely talk too little, since I have such a hard time deciding/keeping track of everything.

Ha, no worries; everyone knows it's true.

That said, back to baddie hunting -- so if Hedge, Llama and I are all going to be safe on the animal sanctuary, where does that leave us in terms of suspects?

I think I'm leaning towards Lizzy at this point. She is playing radically different than both other games I've had with her (and I know she is around because she signed up for Sherlock.)

linki Lizzy: thanks for proving my point.

This is the ONLY time he's mentioned Lizzy. He has said nothing about her ever before or since. Don't believe me? Go through his posts.

He did the same type of thing with Hedgeowl. Said he was all ready to vote for her, then conveniently waited until after I said she seemed sincere, and then agreed and did not even vote for her.

thellama73 wrote:

Matt F wrote:While I'm still reading, Juliet, please address your first two posts in the game, and also please explain why you think me and Lizzy are bad, but are voting for Gleam.

Thank you!

Looking forward to the lynch post. If I am wrong here, which I don't think I am, I will obviously have to reevaluate my opinion of Dom.

Juliet...not so much.

Already preparing excuses for when I flip civ, I see.

Posts like these just seem sarcastic, a bit snarky, and totally unlike civvie llama, at least how I have seen. Those who played Bioshock, think about it. Llama's posts in that game were incredibly insightful, gallant, and he was more than willing to consider all the possibilities. I am just not seeing that llama here. At all. And it's really bothering me.

Lastly, the thing that's bothering me the most is that he keeps shrugging off all the suspicions against him as completely unexplained and baseless, when in fact, I've elaborated on my thoughts about him in detail. I realize my thoughts on him are far from concrete and actually pretty abstract, but here are all the times I've mentioned llama as suspicious or in a quasi-suspicious light:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 661#p31661 Before I even said llama was worthy of any attention for being suspicious, I pointed out an observation here how his thoughts on me seemed to waffle and contradict a bit. He responded and said they are compatible. Up until this point, I actually talked back and forth with llama a bunch, giving him the BOTD before judging his intentions.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 231#p32231 I said I was feeling wary of llama here and said it was pretty much mostly gut. I even tell him I know it's hard to defend against.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 312#p32312 I addressed him twice here. Nothing substantial, but it's something.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 349#p32349 Here is my Day 2 vote for llama. It elaborates as to my exact interpretation of his actions. I explain that I had to vote early for RL reasons and I told him it wasn't much at all, but it was gut, so I had to listen to it.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 584#p32584 Now here I explained I have already given specific instances, such as his suspicion mongering, and provide that he read very much like a baddie stuck in a corner last lynch, etc.

That last quote especially is consequently why it bugs me when llama then says to S~V~S that he's unsure why I even suspect him. Before that, OK, maybe, and before the last two or three quotes, sure, I totally get why he doesn't understand. But surely he should see by now that I believe him to be insincere in his intentions and that I have provided instances of this?

I really want players to tell me what they think of this. I could be totally off the mark or maybe I'm onto something. I don't know. But it's what I really feel is going on, and it's unfair to keep it to myself just because I'm afraid of railroading a civvie.

Wow. Okay. I took way too long on all of this. I really have to go now and stop procrastinating on other things. The soonest I'll be back is maybe tomorrow morning (?), but more likely tomorrow at lunch since I'll be in the office.

Now to address some specific quotes/posts:

juliets wrote:MP, I think you and I just have different approaches to situations. I will promise I will vote you today if you are my main suspicion but as much as people say mafai and personal are separate, it would not make me happy to vote for a friend at a time like this. I will however pledge to do that if the time comes. The other thing I note is I think I am clear on why you voted for Vompatti I just don't agree that its a civv thing to do to try and lynch someone just to get information. Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but that is what it sounds like you are saying.

I know you said you won't be back on here but when you are maybe you could address this. In one place in your post you say:

" Keep an eye for players trying to drum up suspicions on players out of nowhere for weak reasons."

And then you turn around and say:
"I do agree that Matt F's observations are notable. It's funny you mentioned juliets, Matt, because I'm not too sure I've been seeing a civvie JC here either, but didn't want to mention her just yet because I really am on the fence about her, and it's so early in the game so it's hard to interpret intentions using so little to go off on."

I would argue here that Mr F's post is exactly what you said in the first post: Mr F trying to drum up suspicions on players out of nowhere for weak reasons. I can't see anything weaker than making a case based on what people might have said if they had bts.

So it seems like you would see the suspicion on me drummed up out of nowhere for weak reasons. You instead said that you were on the fence about me and Matt's post was notable. So I ask you, what exactly have I said or done that's caused you to be slightly suspicious? And do you really think a made up conversation that supposedly took place in a made up bts is notable?

First, you don't agree my vote for Vompatti was a civvie thing to do. It is your right to disagree.

Second, to address everything else. I thought Matt F's theory, while convoluted, was notable. I didn't say it was genius; I said it was notable. Notable does not even mean correct.

Sure, his were weak reasons, but they fell in line with the vibes I've been getting both from you and llama, so I believed them to be of note (hence, notable). I am very much on the fence about you, especially as it's too early to tell, but my thoughts about your posts thus far as to why I believe you might be worthy of suspicion can be summarized succinctly by I think you might be insincere in some of your posts.

And I entirely disagree, Matt F is at least trying. His case is far from what the "weakest" could be. I think that's actually a bit absurd, especially since so many players randomized for Day 1 and latched onto other players' thoughts for Day 2.

Matt F wrote:

juliets wrote:MP, I think you and I just have different approaches to situations. I will promise I will vote you today if you are my main suspicion...

I assume this goes for everyone else, as well? Yet you voted Gleam, a low poster, after accusing me of being a baddie and being partners with Lizzy.

Okey dokey.

Folks, if I am wrong about Llama, I sincerely apologize, but even in my original long ass post, I said "I may be wrong about Dom or Llama, but Juliets is DEF baddie". Her posts after my susps post make me continue to believe that.

As for peeps saying I will go down if Llama is lynched and flips civ, what??? I am not the sole voter in this game, what I did was come up with a case against three players whom I believe to be baddie.

Nearly all I have to say, sir, is that I can relate with you so much here.

I also want to point out that your observation regarding juliets's contradictory Day 2 vote is noteworthy. I agree it was a pointless vote and perhaps a nefarious one.

S~V~S wrote:
OK, Day One:

Vompatti wrote:I have to say I don't quite understand or agree with any of the votes against me.

This ^^

It is also interesting that you took NO votes Day Two It always makes me scratch my head when people drop their suspicions. I also found the Day One results interesting in that Snows vote for Elo was #19, there were like 8 more votes after that, and only one was made for a person that could be construed as a potential save vote, Hedgies vote for you at # 25. So I am gonna guess that, with the potential exception of Hedgie, who I have mixed feelings about, Elos other teammates voted before Snow did.

I find this very interesting as well. I am not getting particularly civvie vibes from Vompatti.

Also, interesting observation about Elo's other teammates voting before Snow. That is a very good train of thought. I think you might just be right.

Matahari wrote:Good grief, it's hard to catch up in this game. I started trying back when svs made her last post, and then more posts/ accusations to catch up on, then more, until I've almost forgotten where I started. I'm going to weigh in now, before trying to catch up again.

First let me say that I'm sorry I can't do multi quotes. I am completely on an iPhone, and each time I start a quite post, I have to transfer between screens, when I grab a quote, and go back to my screen with the post, it starts over and whatever I had in there is gone. Sucks. If its very important, I can do a lot of 1 quote posts, boosting my post count unfairly, but if I'm mentioning just pings, I'll try to just address people in one post.

So here goes: svs, I'd like to hear your opinion on Bea. It would be nice to move her off my ping list, if other people trust her. She made the one response to my post to her, saying that she might not have noticed my original post, then she was removed from the poll. Then she got fairly quiet after that. That us one reason why she is still a ping for me, because I feel like she is trying not to attract attention. I don't know if that is for a good or bad reason, so I'm interested in opinions about bea's style of playing.

Mp- at one point, you stated that you were leaning 1% civvie on mongoose, but by the end of your post, you said mongoose was not getting your vote that day. 99% non-civvie seems like a powerful incentive to lynch someone, I don't understand your thinking here.

Ok, there's more but I forgot it. I'll be back after I read back a little.

Mata, that's my fault, you misunderstand what I mean. I often see my suspicions as more of a suspicion bar that looks like this:

100% LIKELY BADDIE ------ 50% LIKELY BADDIE ------ 20% LEANING BADDIE ---- 0% TOTALLY UNSURE ---- 20% LEANING CIVVIE... etc. You get the point. So I meant that Mongoose is literally right on the other side of the 0%, on the civvie side. Hopefully this helps.

Also, regarding bea, I am totally unsure of her intentions, but I do want to hear from others about her.

thellama73 wrote:MP thinks I'm bad for reasons not entirely clear to me. So does Davin, and so does Matt F. They say I sound inauthentic, or something.

So untrue. Man, you are reading so freaking baddie to me this game, it is starting to bother me. I feel this is the perfect segway to my observations about you in the subsequent post.

I've felt really strange this past week, and just earlier this morning I was heavily contemplating getting replaced in this game because I felt so insanely overwhelmed. Nonetheless, even though I sometimes don't feel like playing this, I don't want to do that. I just am feeling time-rushed because my GMAT test in a month and I'm behind my self-inflicted schedule... so, again, not sure how often I will pop around. When I do pop around, I'll try to post a TON, for that reason, since I won't be able to show up much at all, so I might as well take advantage of the times I do have to come here.

Now I know people are complaining about my long posts, so I'm going to break my thoughts up. First, to discuss what happened on Day 2. Second, to address specific players' posts/quotes. Then lastly, to share my current suspicions.

I really should be studying more intently, and I actually had to pause my multitasking to do some of this, but what can I say, despite so much going on in my life right now, this game is awesome, and it consumes my thoughts.

Wow, okay. Lots of crazy stuff. First off, RIP no one for Day 2, RIPIYWG borrokuei, sad to see you go on a friend level, not sure how I feel on a player level, and welcome back IYWG Bullzeye! I had good vibes on you before you left, so I think this is good. And welcome to S~V~S, bye to reywaS! I appreciate your thoughts as you catch up, S~V~S, and very much look forward to what you have to say once you catch up regarding what I am about to say, in addition to your own thoughts after reading through everything, and in response to anyone else.

First off, I am absolutely surprised players seem to be clearing llama, or at the least believing that he is no longer worthy of votes. This is very odd. Things are not that simple. There is actually more than what meets the eye as to what happened in Day 2; it is possible that Devin was supposed to die. Want proof? Go look at the roles; there is one civvie role that we know of that has a second vote (Poopsmith) AND there are some secret abilities as well as prizes. This means it is perhaps even possible the lynch was tied and Devin was chosen to die. However, I don't believe that to be true, but it's a possibility.

More importantly, I feel it is helpful to examine how these roles could have survived Day 2. One of them was a civvie lynch stop (Crackotage). One is a civvie who cannot be lynched (Homsar) and one is a baddie who cannot be lynched (Cheerleader). I feel it is especially notable that the Crackotage role not only has one lynch stop but TWO lynch stops.

Given the fact that Devin received five votes literally out of nowhere and within a very short time frame, it could be possible either Devin or llama to be this role. In fact, llama repeatedly said he did not know how he survived. His behavior consistently indicated this to not be the case. I find this post most notable:

thellama73 wrote:I'm not an unlynchable baddie. After reading the roles I can only conclude that some kind soul stopped the lynch on my behalf. Thank you, kind soul!

I find it interesting llama came to this conclusion because I am starting to think it might be true.

Look at Devin's behavior, in contrast:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Why is it that I'm ALWAYS lynched early as a civ.

Go ahead keep voting for me!
I ask for no pardon in the way I say this but the civvies will be fucked if I am lynched. I reference boo's circumstance in Bioshock as being EXACTLY like mine.

But as I said, don't let this stop you from voting for me. Keep voting for me. I have no protection. I will not survive this. Just keep voting

Notice how he references boo in Bioshock. Also how he so blatantly says to keep voting for him, that he has no protection, won't survive, and wants everyone to keep voting. His behavior since this post has been similar.

In addition, he posted this:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Well, I'll be back after I've been lynched. Laters!

When he could have seriously considered he would be the one to die. Now, ask yourself, if Devin were Crackotage, and you were in his shoes, would you use your lynch stop, especially if you had two? Damn sure I know I would.

It's even possible that Devin is Homsar and knew he will never be lynched. It would actually make a lot of sense given that he is playing a wacky game and posting a ton. Think about it: he is not exactly trying to draw attention to himself, but he seems to think it is harmless.

On the flipside, it is also possible Devin is Cheerleader. But for Devin to be Homsar and Cheerleader, there had to be at least some level of vote manipulation taking place here. The only way that could happen would be the civvie role that has two votes cast his or her second vote for Devin OR one of the secrets. Therefore, those possibilities are less likely.

I think the most plausible explanations for what happened on Day 2 are either of the following:
- Devin decided to stop the lynch, fearing he would die, even though by the end of the period he did not have the most votes.
- llama is Homesar or the Cheerleader. However, his behavior does not seem to match either of these, so if I had to guess, definitely I would say the Cheerleader. Also, I still believe him to be bad, perhaps even more so now, but more on that later.

There are many possibilities, in fact, but I believe both of those to be the most likely.

Turns out my current GMAT lecture is Sentence Correction 2 (a topic I'm mostly comfortable with and I can listen along with), so I'm multitasking listening to it and trying to catch up. I have about 7 pages to read. Hopefully I'll have at least some thoughts here; that way I don't have to cram all of my reading and then analyzing and then posting within less than an hour at lunch tomorrow.

Okay... way too many posts. Thank god this period was extended. I am amazed that this game has over 1,000 posts and we're only at Night 2. I realize I was a part of this, so it's sort of ironic that now I'm feeling overwhelmed and behind.

Just a warning, I have no idea when I'll be able to pop back in and read all of this. I have a busy day today and then it's Monday tomorrow, which means it'll be back to work all day and then attempting to study when I get home for the week. I'll try to utilize lunch periods at work, so hopefully I'll be back then.

I quickly read through the posts to catch up because I have just a little bit of time and am feeling up to mafia at the moment (and really don't want to die, and I feel there is at least some chance I could). I wasn't even sure if I would post anything, but I really have to address three things, just in case this is my last post, and even if it isn't, I want to.

First. Seriously. I know I have provided information regarding a family death, and at that someone very close to me, and I literally had just found out and was in total shock when I told the thread -- and at that very moment I did not want to play this game anymore at all. I also am getting busier with work and studying for the GMAT and I felt really overwhelmed. But I've been looking forward to this game for SO long and really want to continue playing it because whenever I have been showing up, I have been really enjoying it. I share all of these things because they affect my participation levels and I especially didn't know how much I'd be up to playing. I've said all this before. But I hate that other players are looking at me with special eyes because of it. Don't. If you think my in-game behavior is suspicious, vote for me. You'd be wrong, but you're entitled to do so. I am not any less worthy of a vote than anyone else.

Second, I've repeated my train of thought multiple times regarding my Vompatti vote on Day 1. Bea and juliets and anyone else who thinks this makes me bad, think again. Would you seriously think it would have been better for me to just "randomize" and that way you could not even tell my intentions as to whether I was hiding behind a vote I didn't want to explain or, the better option but still not great at all, randomizing among a list of players' names instead of going with something that I felt could best give us information? I acknowledged it was risky as hell even in my original post when I went with it. I even acknowledged that I disagreed with gleam and was not AT ALL latching onto his suspicions of Vomps. I just wanted to see what would happen when Vomps had two votes and there had only been three votes made. I felt it might have give us information more than any other option I could do at the time. If you disagree with my methods, fine. Go ahead. But I'm playing this game in a way I can best throw off the baddies and help accomplish my win condition. If you feel that makes me baddie, vote for me. But no one has one explained to me how my Vomps vote even makes me baddie. Even if Vompatti had been railroaded and lynched and flipped civvie, he could have been a sacrifice that led us to sorting out which players bandwagoned onto him nefariously and we could have nabbed a baddie on Day 2. There was any possible way it could have turned out. And for people to think that my intentions behind that vote were more nefarious than someone who just comes in and says "randomed ____" without any explanation, then I just don't understand.

Now one other particular post caught my eye upon skimming:

thellama73 wrote:Trust your instincts, Juliets. There's legitimate suspicion and then there's baddie railroading. I'm beginning to wonder if maybe this is an example of the latter, given the persistence and vagueness of the complaints against me. Nobody has given any specific reason to suspect me, and yet my name keeps getting brought up, sowing the seeds of doubt and suspicion among honest, hard working civvies like yourself (for I do believe you to be civvie at this point).

Every time MP posts he brings up my name, I answer his concerns, he says he thinks my response is reasonable, he disappears for a while, and then he comes back with another post suspecting me. I'm really beginning to feel like is trying to do me in because he knows I am civvie.

The bolded: This is just SO not true. If you are a civvie, then I don't know what's up with you this game, and I'm truly sorry. But this only makes me feel better about my opinion. I even said I was giving you the BOTD and I haven't been mentioning you all game.

Also, I'm disappearing for a while off and on clearly because of RL reasons. Every time I come in here and post in thread is literally all of the time I've been spending at this site and even nearly all the time I've been spending on the internet at all lately. I'm in a game on HV that just started up and unfairly to Dex and indi I haven't even been paying attention to it at all. I actually completely forgot about it until this morning and then realized I had to say something, so thought I might as well check the status here too.

Also, you of all people should know that reasonable does not equate to intentions. You and I share a similar gameplay style. Just because you and I are being reasonable says absolutely nothing about our intentions. I am just as reasonable as a baddie as I am a civvie and I'm the first to admit it. In fact, I might even be more reasonable as a baddie, because when I'm a BTSC-less civvie I'm all alone and have no one to bounce any of my interpretations off of.

Not a specific reason? Did I not give those? I felt you were suspicion mongering with Mongoose and Elohcin, that you thought you could lead a lynch on Hedgeowl, subtly, and that you've been trying to direct the thread -- but not in a civvie way but I am reading your intentions as sinister. Sure, I could very well be wrong, and so could Matt F. But it's all I've got right now.

I additionally feel like llama's response to Matt F's post was very much a baddie stuck in a corner, feeling as though he's being unfairly accused, and after seeing the tide of the thread change away from Hedgeowl to possibly him, I've seen him and the thread become more cautious. There are still only three votes. I feel there might be scheming behind the scenes going on right now. Keep an eye for players trying to drum up suspicions on players out of nowhere for weak reasons. I've been in llama's current shoes many times, and that's the feel I'm getting. Again, could be wrong, my guess is as good as anyone else's. I never said mine was ultimate authority. And that's precisely why I wanted others to contribute their thoughts as much as possible. But that's just my thoughts on him.

I feel terrible even making the case against you because I can empathize entirely with your situation; we both garner a ton of attention in games due to our styles and it often results in our lynch. But I can't let that affect my judgment of how I'm currently reading the situation. If you do get lynched and are civvie, I would say accept my apologies, but I will not be sorry, because I have given this game literally every single bit of effort I possibly can, and I will not apologize for pursuing an interpretation I believe to be most worthy right now. You of all people should understand this, and should accept the situation, especially given it is Day 2.

And I do feel a bit wary of a few of those jumping onto my suspicion of llama. I feel far from sure about all of this. It's mostly my gut interpretation of his intentions. I do agree that Matt F's observations are notable. It's funny you mentioned juliets, Matt, because I'm not too sure I've been seeing a civvie JC here either, but didn't want to mention her just yet because I really am on the fence about her, and it's so early in the game so it's hard to interpret intentions using so little to go off on. Your observations were interesting nonetheless, BUT, I really feel there are a few players latching onto the suspicions that you and I have drummed up.

The more I'm seeing of Vomps's game, I'm wondering if he's baddie here. The way he really latched onto Matt F's post seemed weird to me. Far from sure, but it's something that also struck my mind as I was reading through. That's all I have on him though.

I also am still a bit wary of Devin... just not sure what to make of his intentions quite yet.

My thoughts surrounding most players are very ??? at this point, but that's what I got. I have to go now as I have many things to do and won't be back until... maybe Saturday night, but I have a feeling tomorrow is going to be a really rough day for me (the funeral/viewing is in the morning), so it might not be until Sunday, and even then I don't know how I will feel or what all I will have going on.

Fuck, I messed that up. I was using multiple tabs to keep track of my quotes and my original message.... and I forgot this stuff. This should have been at the top before my quotes:


I'm feeling incredibly mentally and emotionally overwhelmed with everything in my life right now and I know I'm going to be really busy through Saturday. I'm tempted to vote shortly for those reasons because I don't want to miss out on this game and get replaced because it is a good distraction (but at times it's just too much for me) and for that reason I intend on staying in this game and do not want to miss the vote.

Call me a sucker, but Hedgeowl's defense seems genuine to me. I know it makes sense that she could be Elo's teammate and have saved her, but I'm really just not feeling it my gut. My brain says she very well could be bad, but my gut says no way. If she is baddie, then she is good at lying.

Vompatti wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Vompatti wrote:Hedge, I do find your vote slightly suspicious but not any more suspicious than the other two votes against me. Agleamin voted for me because I said I didn't receive any info (which seems like a strange reason to me), and MP voted for me just to see if someone else would(!):

MovingPictures07 wrote:Odd as it may seem, I think I am going to follow Gleam and vote Vompatti myself because I want to see what happens thereafter. I don’t necessarily endorse a bandwagon nor anyone else necessarily voting for him because I personally can't tell whether he's baddie or civvie at this point, but my vote has to go somewhere, and I refuse to randomize and have nothing even close to anything remotely solid on anyone currently. So in the lack of any real substantial candidates, I’d much rather gain some information by my vote (yay baiting!). Vompatti, if you are a civvie, I apologize in advance if this ends up getting you sacrificed, but hopefully and presumably that won’t happen – it should be interesting to see if anyone else does indeed actually vote for you or not and if so, who does so.

votes Vompatti

Why do you find my vote suspicious? I wanted to see what would happen.

Besides, you should be thanking me. It sure was a close one, but I saved you. Do you think you'll be dying today? I don't.

I understand why you would find me suspicious if you were a baddie though. Maybe you are.

You saved me? How? I don't think I'm dying today, but I don't see how that has anything to do with you voting me and nearly getting me lynched. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think voting for someone you don't suspect just to see what would happen is a very civ thing to do.

Then you and I disagree.

A civvie's job is to eliminate the baddies. What better way to try and figure out who the baddies are, especially early on in a game when many players are doing a fantastic job playing and there's hardly anything concrete to go on, than by baiting them?

So our methods disagree and you find mine to be nonsensical. As I inquired of Kate but she never got the chance to answer: How does that make me baddie?

Same question for you, JC.

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote: Yet you had no analysis paralysis in Bioshock, a game that was far more complex? A simple question, nothing more.

Yes, but this is a question I've asked twice now, but would a teammate seriously do that?

I didn't really try to logic anything out in Bioshock because I quickly decided it was impossible. Then I died. Anyway, I approach different games differently based on the mood I'm in. Sometimes I get really excited about analyzing every little detail. Sometimes I don't feel like doing that and prefer just to ride along and see what happens. Unlike you, I don't really make any effort to keep my playstyle consistent from game to game. I'm happy to mix things up, which keeps people guessing as to my alignment just as much as consistency does.

And yes, I do think a baddie would try to save a teammate if there was a reasonable chance of success.

MovingPictures07 wrote:One question before I go: What do players (besides Mongoose and BWT) think of llama this game?

Answers much appreciated.

I think I'm really great and a great asset, not only to the civvie team, but to the game in general.

While your defense is understandable and logically explained, this rubs me the wrong way. I can't help but ignore it.

I'm tempted to just go with my gut and vote llama now because I don't know if I will have time to go back before the poll ends or if I will even want to. It's bothering me that I even feel obligated to come back to vote because I'm really upset and have enough on my plate right now. As much as I'm really enjoying this game, the prospect of trying to find time to come back, analyze, and vote before the end of this period is furthering my stress, so...

As much as I hate to do so, especially since llama gets unfairly lynched often as a civvie and early on in games, and it's something I really can relate to -- and as such, I really, really don't want to suspect him -- but I can't ignore my gut.

For other prospective voters, if you want to vote Hedgeowl, feel free. I will not be doing so. I'm following my gut and my interpretation of events and what Hedgeowl, Mongoose, llama, and everyone has said. I don't think mafia is sometimes so straightforward as people make it seem -- so it seems Hedgeowl is most likely to be baddie right now based on thread evidence, fine. But I personally don't believe her to be. It's more complicated than that.

This could come back to bite me in the ass, but it's what I'm willing to do. Hedgeowl very well could be baddie, but for now, I'm buying her defense. I won't be voting for her anyway. If others want to do so, that's their perogative.

I am voting llama because my gut is screaming for it. Think about it, even though I don't have the time or desire to flip back, a few things come to mind.... He explained away how what he said about me (the two posts) that I pointed out earlier -- that they were not incompatible. But... I'm not sure I believe him. Look back at his posts. I don't think this is a civvie llama; I think this is a llama who is nefarious. He really seems to be leading the lynch movement against Hedgeowl, but not so strongly enough as he usually does as a civvie crusader, it's sort of weird. I hope that makes sense. He seems to be himself mostly, but he seems to be a bit more subtle in his some of his offense and defense, a little more like he has something to lose, like people are depending on him.

Also, I know he loves to give players who post a lot a few days, but think about why he said that quote and particularly in this game. He would certainly not want to be lynched like he has been unfairly in past games (Bioshock). But even there, sometimes he doesn't state his beliefs so strongly and boldly... Maybe he really wanted to push that idea and have myself and possibly others agree with it because he wants to avoid a repeat, because his alignment has changed. Think about it, he could really use what has happened to him recently and in the past to his advantage if he were a baddie here.

Then think about how he thought Mongoose and Elohcin were suspicious for throwing out wacky ideas. It's almost as if...

It's almost as if llama is trying too hard to be like himself. I sense some sort of insincerity. I sense that in his post here clarify this. That's exactly what it was. I have sensed this in a few of his posts throughout the game.

I'm far from sure of this, but it's by far what my gut is telling me makes the most sense right now, and given everything I've said above and that I really feel way better just voting now because I don't think I'll be able to and want to later, I'm just going to go for it and listen to my gut. It's all I really have right now.

votes llama

One question before I go: What do players (besides Mongoose and BWT) think of llama this game?

Answers much appreciated.

Holy shit, this is a really talkative game. Even more than most others, it seems. Thank god I goofed off a bit this morning and caught up, otherwise tomorrow I would have been hating myself when it was time to vote.

I find it interesting two players in particular agreed with me on llama. Is it that they are getting different vibes from him than normally as well or are they latching?

birdwithteeth11 wrote:Here's my few thoughts for the evening. And this will be a long one, so grab a cup of coffee if you need it.

First off, RIPIYWG Bullz and Kate. I was iffy with Bullz, and I didn't have a read on Kate yet.

Secondly, I'm not sure why Bea was removed from the poll. I would be curious to know if she knows how she was. Because right now, the only thing I can think of is secrets. I can understand it possibly being that Strong Bad picked her email, but somehow I doubt that's actually what it is.

Next, I'm not going to spend too much time trying to figure anything out about the secret event. I would assume the people who are involved with it are already aware of it. Unfortunately, I am not one of them.

I think Strong Sad made a typo in his poem, and meant to put 'I'm' instead of 'in'. Maybe he thinks Bullz was being set up by someone? Idk. But then again, Strong Sad doesn't have info as far as I'm aware, so I'll take it with a grain of salt unless I find more evidence to back that up.

I can see where Matt F. is coming from with Mongoose. It definitely seems ironic that she would be hesitant about new players, when she herself isn't really much of a veteran yet. Something to keep an eye on for sure.

Llama, for some reason I feel a lot of your posts are lacking the kind of substance I am used to seeing. I feel like you normally try to be fairly helpful, but I feel like your posts aren't saying as much as they normally do. Maybe it's just a gut feeling for now, but it's how I feel about you.

Not sure I see what the case on Hedgeowl is. Would someone care to elaborate?

I know MP has a lot of stuff going on IRL, but does anyone else feel like he's just throwing a lot of names and theories out there to see if anything sticks? I guess I'm used to him making lots of giant quote pyramids and finding lots of evidence to back up his claims. So idk if it's because of his RL stuff that he isn't doing that or if it's a more nefarious reason. I'll give him a bit of time for now with it though, given what he's been dealing with this week, but I'm hoping that picks up again soon.

I think that's about it for now. You may sit back and exhale.

Linki

Re: Mongoose -- She's certainly played enough games, and well enough, for her to be considered somewhere in between new and veteran, don't you think?

Interesting articulation regarding llama. I don't really feel like that's why he caught my eye though.

How many names and theories have I even mentioned? What constitutes "a lot"?

I am attempting to come up with evidence as much as possible; I'm just taking a different approach. Also, I shouldn't need to remind you, but out of most of the games we've played together this year, I've been a baddie. Ever consider that?

It should be pretty evident; I personally think, even though I model my baddie game after my civvie game, that I do have certain tells in my civvie game, and that those have been present this game.

Of course, that's easy for me to say, I understand my own intentions, so I can appreciate your skepticism.

But think about what I said above, the fact that I do have a FUCKTON I'm dealing with right now, and the fact that this game currently has a ridiculous amount of posts for Day 2. I am trying my best to keep up with what's being said; I do not yet have the time nor the desire to go back and read previous posts. Besides, I'm trying to revamp my civvie playstyle because I've done those huge cases early on in mafia games so many times in the past and been wrong. I am not repeating Minecraft.

thellama73 wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Llama, for some reason I feel a lot of your posts are lacking the kind of substance I am used to seeing. I feel like you normally try to be fairly helpful, but I feel like your posts aren't saying as much as they normally do. Maybe it's just a gut feeling for now, but it's how I feel about you.

Not sure I see what the case on Hedgeowl is. Would someone care to elaborate?

To be honest, I'm having a bit of analysis paralysis. There are so many roles with so many powers, I'm having a hard time coming up with plausible explanations of what is going on without descending into baseless speculation. I am trying to keep it simple, hence my intention to vote for Hedgeowl.

The case against her is the following: Vompatti had two votes, Elohcin had three. Then Hedgeowl voted late for Vompatti, tying the vote. Then Elohcin flipped baddie. I never saw a strong case against vomps, so I think her vote was an effort to protect a teammate.

Yet you had no analysis paralysis in Bioshock, a game that was far more complex? A simple question, nothing more.

Yes, but this is a question I've asked twice now, but would a teammate seriously do that?

Devin the Omniscient wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote: I also have to say I find Devin suspicious again now. Why, you ask? Just because I know he loves it.

No, but seriously, I can't put my finger on it. I am still mostly unsure of him, but I find it interesting how my little stunt to try to subtly draw attention to him in one of my previous posts didn't get a response from anyone. That and a few of his posts have struck an odd chord with me... not sure if they're sinister at all, just odd.

What can I say... I'm an odd balll

By the way I hate you

No you don't.

thellama73 wrote:
Vompatti's alignment is not really relevant to Hedgeowl's guilt. If she is a member of the teen girl squad, as I suspect, she would vote for Vomps to save her teammate if he was any alignment other than a member of teen girl squad. She would be just as likely to vote for a blue laser or an indie as a civvie.

This is incredibly logical. But I keep struggling with the question: What would a teammate of Elohcin do? Would they really try to save her like that?

That said, I voted Vompatti to see if anyone else would, and I wouldn't be opposed to a Hedgeowl lynch; I just hope it's not wrong.

Vompatti wrote:Hedge, I do find your vote slightly suspicious but not any more suspicious than the other two votes against me. Agleamin voted for me because I said I didn't receive any info (which seems like a strange reason to me), and MP voted for me just to see if someone else would(!):

MovingPictures07 wrote:Odd as it may seem, I think I am going to follow Gleam and vote Vompatti myself because I want to see what happens thereafter. I don’t necessarily endorse a bandwagon nor anyone else necessarily voting for him because I personally can't tell whether he's baddie or civvie at this point, but my vote has to go somewhere, and I refuse to randomize and have nothing even close to anything remotely solid on anyone currently. So in the lack of any real substantial candidates, I’d much rather gain some information by my vote (yay baiting!). Vompatti, if you are a civvie, I apologize in advance if this ends up getting you sacrificed, but hopefully and presumably that won’t happen – it should be interesting to see if anyone else does indeed actually vote for you or not and if so, who does so.

votes Vompatti

Why do you find my vote suspicious? I wanted to see what would happen.

Besides, you should be thanking me. It sure was a close one, but I saved you. Do you think you'll be dying today? I don't.

I understand why you would find me suspicious if you were a baddie though. Maybe you are.

Matt F wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:I agree that Hedgeowl's vote yesterday makes her look bad, definitively. I don't understand why anyone would have gone on and voted Vompatti after I specifically made that speech in my vote about wanting to bait players and see if anyone else would vote for him, despite the fact that I had no idea as to his alignment. It makes no sense. But just because it makes no sense doesn't mean Hedgeowl is baddie...

.........

I could see voting for Hedgeowl... but I don't want to railroad a civvie. I can definitely see a scenario that would make her bad, but I'm naturally hesitant.

So...what does this mean, concerning your thoughts on Owl? Good or bad?

Also, as an Elo voter, I'm most interested in you elaborating on your thoughts on how you think an Elo teammate would throw her under the bus. You also said all three of her votes came out of nowhere, but I had a small ping on her rather early, when she used the line "We civs gotta stick together" when talking to you in the thread. When it came time to vote, I felt better about voting her then randoming someone I didn't have any suspicion on, as weak as a suspicion as it may have been.

Looking back through your posts, I also notice that at one point, you told Llama that you didn't believe Mongoose or Elo would be so obvious buddy buddy in the thread with their theories. Once Elo was lynched, you later say (very recently) that you still don't believe da Goose is a baddie.

Now, don't get me wrong, after Goose's response to me, I feel a lot better about her. However, given that you were already telling people to not look their way, I would think upon learning that Elo WAS a baddie, that you would be a bit more hesitant yourself when it comes to Goose.

Seeing as you're not suspicious of her all that much, even tipping her with a 1% civvie vibe, it makes me wonder if you know Goose isn't on the cheerleader team. And then I wonder how you would know such a thing?

Furthermore, considering you went out of your way to vote for Vomps all the while saying you were hoping to catch a baddie for voting Vomps as well (which is a bit weird to announce in the thread, btw). Now Hedge votes Vomps, all the while putting Vomps and Elo (baddie Elo) in a tie, and it seems like you don't want to vote for Hedge, but rather, a low poster. Or possibly even an Elo voter???

Maybe I'm just not understanding your motivations in this game, MP.

Concerning Hedgeowl... I honestly have no idea. I understand the case on her; it's logical, and it could very well mean she is Elo's teammate. However, I'm having trouble believing that's actually what happened.

MR F/Matt F, I am not looking at you as suspicious currently at all. It just has occurred to me that a teammate of Elo's might think of a crazy idea to throw a vote onto her this early in the game, and it would have benefited even further in this particular set of circumstances where she was lynched. Also, I've done that many times as a baddie... in fact, I have a harder time defending teammates than I do throwing them under the bus.

I am not defending Mongoose to my or her grave because I don't know that she's civvie, but her defenses are reading genuine to me, and I will definitely not be voting for her today. And yes, I have a hard time believing she would behave like that if she was on a team with Elo. I could be very wrong on that though, but it's just my natural instinct on reading how it all went down.

My motivations are simple: I'm trying to fuck with the baddies' minds as much as possible. I'm almost certain that in either or both team's BTSCs they have discussed me at some point.

I'M IN YOUR AREA, baddies. In your fucking area.

I want to hear from as many players as possible as to what they are currently are thinking -- what they think of what Elohcin's teammates would do, where they are looking today (if anywhere), and what they think looking over players' behavior and especially their Day 1 votes. I know it's still early, but it doesn't hurt to talk everything out as much as possible. Besides, that's how you can catch insincerity...

Not sure when I'll be back in the thread again, might be a while... but it'll be before the vote ends, at least.

RIPIYWG Bullzeye and Kate. Definitely had a civvie read on Bullzeye, had no idea about Kate.

I'm pretty sure I also know exactly who Strong Bad is.

I feel like there was at least a post or two for me to address, but sorry, things have been pretty crazy for me as of late, and I can't be bothered to go back looking. So if someone did want my opinion on something or asked me something and I didn't respond, just ask me again. I honestly can't remember.

As to who I'm looking at today... I'm actually feeling a bit wary of llama, as much as I hate to say it. My gut is screaming baddie on him for some reason half the time I read his posts. They just don't read like civvie llama to me. Sorry, llama, I know that's hard to defend against, and it's far from saying I'll even vote for you today, but my gut feels most strongly about you independent of evidence.

As to Mongoose, I'm not leaning strongly on her one way or the other; she can be kind of hard to read. That said, I think I might lean just 1% civvie, but am very unsure. I think I find it a bit hard to believe she would act the way she did with Elohcin in thread if they were teammates; it seems too buddy buddy and obvious. I don't think they would have interacted like that and drawn so much attention to both of them, especially throwing out the wacky theories. I could be wrong, but I doubt I'll be giving her my vote.

I agree that Hedgeowl's vote yesterday makes her look bad, definitively. I don't understand why anyone would have gone on and voted Vompatti after I specifically made that speech in my vote about wanting to bait players and see if anyone else would vote for him, despite the fact that I had no idea as to his alignment. It makes no sense. But just because it makes no sense doesn't mean Hedgeowl is baddie...

Again, it comes back to the question of whether we think Elohcin's teammates would have tried to have saved her or not. Did they even think she would be the one to go? She did receive three of those votes sort of out of nowhere. Perhaps one of those three is even her teammate. Or her teammates avoided her altogether. I think the latter is probably the most likely... for at least two of the three teammates. Maybe one went out there specifically and tried to save her or throw her under the bus. But I would bet that most of her teammates avoided to comment on her altogether because it would be harder for us to pick out and it would honestly probably have been the smartest move to make.

I could see voting for Hedgeowl... but I don't want to railroad a civvie. I can definitely see a scenario that would make her bad, but I'm naturally hesitant.

I might vote for a low poster like rey or someone else, especially if that low poster also randomized on Day 1. I at least went out on a limb and tried to learn something by way of my vote and it got me attention (from Mata and Kate most notably). Those who randomize receive no attention. Also, turns out Elohcin randomized and she was entirely insincere in her intentions. We could find someone else who was the same.

I also have to say I find Devin suspicious again now. Why, you ask? Just because I know he loves it.

No, but seriously, I can't put my finger on it. I am still mostly unsure of him, but I find it interesting how my little stunt to try to subtly draw attention to him in one of my previous posts didn't get a response from anyone. That and a few of his posts have struck an odd chord with me... not sure if they're sinister at all, just odd.

Definitely keeping my eye on a few others as well... they will remain nameless just in case they make me feel better about them and because my feelings are pretty low on the suspici-o-meter.

Also, I wanted to say that I am sorry to see you go on a personal level, Elo, always enjoy playing with you. But so glad your role is gone!