Quin wrote:My rainbow list currently has no town reads.
Why?
why not?
some of us are better at seeing town reads than others.
MovingPictures07 wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:Sorsha's the one I have the best view of, but not by much
What is that view? Why is she your top read?
it's like I went through some kind of...procedure of removal...in my mind, and Sorsha was the one who rubbed me wrong the least. She's the least objectionable, not the most commendable. Hence the yellow hue.
I don't understand your first response. What does that mean?
But why? What about Sorsha rubs you wrong the least? What has she done that's least objectionable?
Epignosis wrote:I don't see where DF suspected MP.
DFaraday wrote:That was absolute bollocks. Nobody talks about Soneji all day, then with ten minutes to go the votes pile on? That's bloody ludicrous!
If anyone asked me, I'd think the baddies are made up of two Soneji voters and either Eloh, Sorsha or G-Man. This just screams save.
DFaraday wrote:The bigger issue for me is the Day 1 lynch, which still looks like a blatant save attempt. Since G-Man wasn't being saved, the most logical option is Elo. And of course Rico suspected Elo shortly before his demise.
This is what MP is talking about with his "dubious assumptions."
He didn't want anyone questioning the D1 lynch, because guess who was behind it?
MP...MP was behind it...in case you didn't know...
By going after Elo because he thought the D1 lynch was fishy, he's essentially saying that MP's D1 case against Soneji was fishy.
Furthermore, DF never was questioning the intentions of the CFD. He used declarative language all game to say that he thought either G-Man or Elo was saved by the CFD, never considered another perspective that they were NOT, and used that to dictate his suspicions all game.
Those are all facts. If you find elsewhere in his ISO that DF was ever open-minded on any of those fronts, and that the assumption of "d1 was a save" is ever missing from any of his suspicions, INH, by all means.
MovingPictures07 wrote:All of this despite me and Epi telling him that literally all of his suspicions/thoughts are based on one flimsy assumption: that someone was being saved on Day 1. I think that's ridiculously dubious.
MP's case against DF was mostly based on DF thinking that the D1 Soneji thing was a save-job.
Seems more like MP just wanted to get rid of someone who found him suspicious. Or he was so shocked that someone would find him suspicious for his D1 CFD mislynch that he decided to target him for yet another CFD mislynch.
It's like raaaaain on your wedding day...
MovingPictures07 wrote:I don't get the impression at all that DF cares about solving the game at all. I'd like to lynch him today.
Translation: DF finds me suspicious; get him!
Full disclosure, whenever I read the phrase "solving this game," I roll my eyes.
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Spacedaisy wrote:@ MP - Up until your post on him setting up easy lynches, I hadn't really thought anything of him. In reading the Hatch thread I thought briefly that he seemed more engaged that he normally comes across to me, but I don't think that is necessarily a baddie tell or anything, he is usually disengaged either way I believe. But your post about setting up lynches was a good point. He basically has a lynch lined up no matter what result Elo might flip, which would be a nice place for a baddie to be sitting. It is something to consider.
INH is doing the exact same thing in that post I quoted. I find it equally suspect.
Both DF and INH seem so uninterested in actually hunting for mafia. They're just drawing connections based on incredibly dubious assumptions.
Hey, lookie here:
MP seems so uninterested in actually hunting for mafia. He's just drawing connections based on incredibly dubious assumptions.
See? I can do it too.
Also, once again, "incredibly dubious assumptions" = questioning the intent of a D1 CFD mislynch. That sounds reasonably grounded in logic and fact to me, but then again, I didn't cause a D1 CFD mislynch. I guess MP's perspective is different.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Their games are the epitome of lacking any town spark whatsoever. They don't indicate any consideration of hunting.
Translation: I don't like DF and INH's games and hunting efforts because they implicate me.
Dude, it's a good thing I won the lottery. Otherwise, I'd be broke because of all this discrediting MP is doing to me.
INH, you don't seem all that interested in understanding me. Instead you just come in here stating all these mafia-aligned interpretations of my behavior that you suddenly are accusing me of. Apparently it took you 3 whole Day periods to find me suspicious. Why is that?
Epignosis wrote:I'm still convinced Eloh is okay. If she's bad, then good on her and good for you people who saw what I didn't. But I stand by my man. Er, woman.
Is Kate bisexual? A scene with her and Juliet could have ramped up the ratings, know what I mean?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi and Elo, would you be willing to vote INH?
mp, can you please stop disappearing from the thread, reappearing at the last possible second, and changing the vote against a civilian player?
please and thank you.
So you know DF is town? Quite the revelation.
dude, he was my biggest townread going into today.
if you hadn't of waited until the last hour to pop this case into the thread, maybe we could have discussed it.
This is Soneji all over again, don't doubt it for a second.
You're just as capable of making this observations as I am.
So you're accusing me of timing my entrances into the thread as a member of the mafia? What exactly do you think my strategy is here?
I also find it myopic that you're attributing the results here to me alone. Yes, I initiated both CFDs, and I accept responsibility for that, but I'm not the only DF voter. I couldn't have lynched him all by myself. What do you make of the other voters?
I dislike both of your cases against Soneji and DF, I think they were flimsy as hell, and made less sense than the cases which were being thrown around at the time.
I don't think that just because you "took a stand" and lead a case against a dude that you're automatically wiped clean away of any suspicion the next day because "I couldn't have lynched him all by myself." That's what my ma used to call fallacious reasoning.
I think CFD's present a good opportunity for the mafia to mislead the town by casting other, more on the mark, suspicions as "shady" and saying "I see the points against this person but I'm just not sure!"
Then, someone rides in on a white horse with a new head on a silver platter for everyone to chop off.
It's the old Monty Hall problem, like on Let's Make A Deal.
There are three doors. One has a prize, and the other two have goats. The host knows what's behind each one.
The player picks a door, and then the host opens another door to reveal a goat.
The host then offers the player a choice: keep the door they had before, or trade it for the other unopened one.
In this game, people are so afraid of the unknown, that they're willing to jump at an alternative just because it's "unexpected" and "different." And of course trying to get it going an hour before the EoD means naturally that you don't have to convince the entire thread. You have to convince everyone who's still there. If you spread enough paranoia, and enough doubt, skittish civilians are gonna trade in their doors for a new one.
And unlike in Let's Make A Deal, there's less of a chance of them getting it right when they do a last-minute switcheroo.
So, MP, I suspect you more for presenting these options than I do the players for buying into them but don't think for a second that I'm letting them off the hook. (Hence my rainbow list.)
What cases were those? Why did they make more sense?
Where did I say that should be the case?
Why do you think my motivations specifically are mafia-motivated?
Not a single dude deserves above a yellow, in my book. MP and SD hijacked and hoodwinked the lynch away from Elo for the third consecutive time. Good job with the shell game. I'm still not 100% sold on SD and Elo being bad, SD could've made a mistake the last couple days, and Elo could be a smokescreen false-flag type deal. If Elo is good, I think Quin must be bad. (Insert "FALSE EQUIVALENCY WEE WOO WEE WOO SIRENS" here)
Scotty, Epi, and Sorsha I have little to no impression of. Scotty booked a trip on the MP Mislynch CFD Express D1, and then disappeared. Epi believes Elo is civ, which either looks good or bad depending on her alignment. Sorsha's the one I have the best view of, but not by much. She still gladly followed MP on a witch hunt today.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi and Elo, would you be willing to vote INH?
mp, can you please stop disappearing from the thread, reappearing at the last possible second, and changing the vote against a civilian player?
please and thank you.
DFaraday thinks we're both town. Are we both town? Should we come together as one and smite the villainous scum that are basically everybody else in this thread?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi and Elo, would you be willing to vote INH?
mp, can you please stop disappearing from the thread, reappearing at the last possible second, and changing the vote against a civilian player?
please and thank you.
So you know DF is town? Quite the revelation.
dude, he was my biggest townread going into today.
if you hadn't of waited until the last hour to pop this case into the thread, maybe we could have discussed it.
This is Soneji all over again, don't doubt it for a second.
You're just as capable of making this observations as I am.
So you're accusing me of timing my entrances into the thread as a member of the mafia? What exactly do you think my strategy is here?
I also find it myopic that you're attributing the results here to me alone. Yes, I initiated both CFDs, and I accept responsibility for that, but I'm not the only DF voter. I couldn't have lynched him all by myself. What do you make of the other voters?
this observations, MP, really? obviously I wrote this in a rush.
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi and Elo, would you be willing to vote INH?
mp, can you please stop disappearing from the thread, reappearing at the last possible second, and changing the vote against a civilian player?
please and thank you.
So you know DF is town? Quite the revelation.
dude, he was my biggest townread going into today.
if you hadn't of waited until the last hour to pop this case into the thread, maybe we could have discussed it.
This is Soneji all over again, don't doubt it for a second.
You're just as capable of making this observations as I am.
So you're accusing me of timing my entrances into the thread as a member of the mafia? What exactly do you think my strategy is here?
I also find it myopic that you're attributing the results here to me alone. Yes, I initiated both CFDs, and I accept responsibility for that, but I'm not the only DF voter. I couldn't have lynched him all by myself. What do you make of the other voters?
DFaraday wrote:What the bloody hell bollocks is this? I'm getting lynched for being too focused on one sodding person? MP, you say I am not trying to solve the game. What about all the players just voting with the flow? Is that really better? The baddies are obviously steering the lunches. At this point I bet it isn't even Elo. It's probably the sodding band wagoners.
That's not the reason.
The one assumption that literally your entire game has focused on has been "someone was saved d1", even though you have no reason to believe that to be more likely than all of the vote-receivers being town on d1. I have pointed this out. Epi has pointed this out. You don't seem to care.
Spacedaisy wrote:I'm looking at the votes and it looks like it's tied at the moment. I'm going to place my vote with the people I find more trustworthy because I can go either way on this one. I'm voting DFaraday.
Explain your thought process a bit more for me. What's holding you back from suspecting DF more than Elo? What's holding you back from suspecting Elo more than DF?
Sorsha wrote:I feel pretty good about mp and Quin. I'd vote with which group I feel better about over all but the other four voters I'm either leaning bad or neutral on.
What are your thoughts on Elo and DF specifically?
MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi and Elo, would you be willing to vote INH?
Not at this time. I am not convinced he is bad.
Why? What specifically do you find suspicious enough about DF to vote for him, but not about INH?
I think the points made against DF are more noteworthy than the ones against INH. I thought INH had been pretty helpful. His helpfulnees has petered off, for sure. I just think DF is more likely bad.
Linki: He's lying about that. But I do forget things. This is why I keep everything written down. But when it comes to old games, the only way I would be able to remember them is if I were to take notes of important happenings and refresh my memory of those things before each new game I play. I cannot be that involved in Mafia...not enough time.
I can remember some things really well too. And I am good with faces and pictures. YOu know how you can see an actor and thin..."oh, I have seen them in something before." I can always place a face/voice/etc. Will I know the title of what they played in? No...but I can tell you the plot or genre or whatever. My brain is weird. I blame public school for the inability to learn the way I should have and that's why I have a hard time as an adult, imo.
That's fair enough. I do think INH's early game behavior looks much better than DF, but I'm not willing to give him any townie points for that at this time, especially after G-Man flipped town (since I was town reading INH based on thinking his interactions with G-Man looked good).
Elohcin wrote:If I am a liability to the civs, I am very sorry. I do have a memory problem, for real. It's one of the reasons I decided to begin playing Mafia...to try and keep my mind as sharp as possible.
Is that really true? I didn't know that. That's sort of fascinating.
Is it like Daniel Faraday in LOST?
yeah, it's really true. I hate it. It started a few years ago.
That's awful, sorry to hear it.
My memory can be pretty good when it comes to other things, relatively or pretty shitty when it comes to others. I remember in pictures, so usually when I mess something up, it's because I can picture it but I place it incorrectly in my internal timeline, so I think that it's from a different time than it really is.
I'm torn on all of this... I really hope I'm not being hoodwinked by Elo. But I'm trusting my gut assessment of everyone right now, and I stand by my rainbow list assessments of everyone. I might move Sorsha up to weak mafia or weak town. I'm not sure what to think of her.
Elohcin wrote:If I am a liability to the civs, I am very sorry. I do have a memory problem, for real. It's one of the reasons I decided to begin playing Mafia...to try and keep my mind as sharp as possible.
Is that really true? I didn't know that. That's sort of fascinating.
Quin wrote:I don't like either of the two who are currently voting with me. But I also don't want to move my vote.
I understand your reservations about Elo. Trust me. I came into this thread ready to grill her to oblivion. I still have doubts lingering in the back of my mind.
But contrast her game with DF and INH's games. Their games are the epitome of lacking any town spark whatsoever. They don't indicate any consideration of hunting.
Take a leap of faith with me.
The only other person I'm willing to vote today is INH.
What puts INH over DF for you specifically?
I'm open-minded to considering INH; we just have to make sure we have a sufficient wagon going. I'd rather vote for DF because I feel ever so slightly more confident about him, but as long as we're lynching one of them over someone else, I don't really care.
I have full beefs with INH in both this and the hatch thread. I'll find them for you in a second.
I'm aware of your previous beefs; I suppose I didn't ask the right question, sorry. I just mean... how would you rank both DF and INH right now if you had to rainbow them?
I think they're just about equally suspicious; I just feel more conviction re: DF.
Elohcin wrote:Those of you who believe I'm civ better be voting to save my ass.
Hey Quin, how is it beneficial to a civ to claim a power role at the beginning of Night when baddies are deliberating who to kill?
Hey Sorsha. What is "it"?
Elo, I understand you're making a point, but the repetition of this question isn't helping you at all.
Here's your answer. Vanilla townies fake claiming power roles so that they can keep the real power roles alive is a legitimate strategy because it helps to keep power roles alive. If the mafia believes the fake claim by a vanilla townie, they will NK them because they want to NK the power roles first. It's how I tricked you and your team in Arrested Development by trying to seem like I was the cop. You bought it, then Spacedaisy (the real cop) outed you all and solved the game. Remember that?
OOOHHHH! I DO remember. Thank you so much, MP. See...another reason to put you in the civ category.
So...do you think this is what Quin did or should we not even talk about it ...kind of defeats the purpose.
woah linki
Yeah, I didn't weigh in on this conversation previously precisely because I wanted Quin to uphold his cover, if in fact he was truthfully providing cover, but it's become such a significant part of the game that I felt I needed to comment on it specifically. It's also evident that the town power roles are probably all gone because both Rico and Dom were power roles. There may be 1 left at best. I doubt it. It's probably a mafia power role.
Quin wrote:I don't like either of the two who are currently voting with me. But I also don't want to move my vote.
I understand your reservations about Elo. Trust me. I came into this thread ready to grill her to oblivion. I still have doubts lingering in the back of my mind.
But contrast her game with DF and INH's games. Their games are the epitome of lacking any town spark whatsoever. They don't indicate any consideration of hunting.
Take a leap of faith with me.
The only other person I'm willing to vote today is INH.
What puts INH over DF for you specifically?
I'm open-minded to considering INH; we just have to make sure we have a sufficient wagon going. I'd rather vote for DF because I feel ever so slightly more confident about him, but as long as we're lynching one of them over someone else, I don't really care.
FWIW, I find your response to my post genuine at face value, Sorsha. I'm just stating the beefs I have with your post. I'd much rather lynch DF or INH.
Sorsha wrote:Indeed you have. Since day one, just like Epi has been of Eloh. I don't think my tone is dismissive in that post, I think the issue you have is that it could cast some shade on daisy if it's true. Daisy is not even close to getting my vote today so don't worry.
I didn't say it was dismissive; I said it was deflective. It changed from a defense of actions you have taken and turned it around on Daisy at the end. I find that suspicious at face value regardless of who makes the post because it appears as if the player making the accusation is merely pointing fingers. It's like "Yeah, well, I may have stolen a cookie, but LOOK OVER THERE! DAISY DID THIS!" I have a hard time not suspecting that kind of deflection. It has nothing to do with the fact that Daisy is the person you were reflecting to.
Quin wrote:I don't like either of the two who are currently voting with me. But I also don't want to move my vote.
I understand your reservations about Elo. Trust me. I came into this thread ready to grill her to oblivion. I still have doubts lingering in the back of my mind.
But contrast her game with DF and INH's games. Their games are the epitome of lacking any town spark whatsoever. They don't indicate any consideration of hunting.
Sorsha wrote:@ Daisy- I'm a wonky person, what can I say. If that scenario didn't include you I think you'd agree that it was a good catch. As for my Scotty votes, day one I did actually vote for him initially but switched because I had two votes and didn't want to be lynched on some last minute shenanagins. Day two almost nothing happened on the beach. Scotty wasn't going to be a lynch candidate so I went with Epi, was that a bad choice? Should I have voted for gman like you?
Linki- :face palm:
I don't like the tone in this post. It reads suspicious at face value to me. It's too deflective.
Defense of daisy noted!
I've been defending Daisy all game. Where have you been?
I'm voting DFaraday as well. He's not considering any perspectives that don't fit his incredibly rigid plan that someone was being saved d1. I think he's using it as a smokescreen to set up consecutive mislynches.
Elohcin wrote:Those of you who believe I'm civ better be voting to save my ass.
Hey Quin, how is it beneficial to a civ to claim a power role at the beginning of Night when baddies are deliberating who to kill?
Hey Sorsha. What is "it"?
Elo, I understand you're making a point, but the repetition of this question isn't helping you at all.
Here's your answer. Vanilla townies fake claiming power roles so that they can keep the real power roles alive is a legitimate strategy because it helps to keep power roles alive. If the mafia believes the fake claim by a vanilla townie, they will NK them because they want to NK the power roles first. It's how I tricked you and your team in Arrested Development by trying to seem like I was the cop. You bought it, then Spacedaisy (the real cop) outed you all and solved the game. Remember that?
I think Epi is right about Elo. There's no reason for her to pursue all of this as a member of the mafia. I had my doubts big time, but I'm coming around.
Spacedaisy wrote:@ MP - Up until your post on him setting up easy lynches, I hadn't really thought anything of him. In reading the Hatch thread I thought briefly that he seemed more engaged that he normally comes across to me, but I don't think that is necessarily a baddie tell or anything, he is usually disengaged either way I believe. But your post about setting up lynches was a good point. He basically has a lynch lined up no matter what result Elo might flip, which would be a nice place for a baddie to be sitting. It is something to consider.
INH is doing the exact same thing in that post I quoted. I find it equally suspect.
Both DF and INH seem so uninterested in actually hunting for mafia. They're just drawing connections based on incredibly dubious assumptions.
Everything about DF's gameplay is really bugging me. This is basically what he's done since the Soneji CFD:
- Soneji voters must be bad! Look at how they mislynched him out of nowhere! They were saving G-Man or Elo for sure.
- Votes for G-Man based on that logic, comes up town. It must be Elo!
- Then proceeds to vote for Elo based on the same faulty logic.
All of this despite me and Epi telling him that literally all of his suspicions/thoughts are based on one flimsy assumption: that someone was being saved on Day 1. I think that's ridiculously dubious.
Quin v. Elo is increasingly reading town v. town to me. I think our mafia are sitting back and letting town fight it out. I'm inclined to think some combination of DF, INH, Scotty, and Sorsha are our baddies.
Elohcin wrote:My only reason I think you are civ, MP is because I think you would be more posty if you were bad. I think you would make it more of a priority to be here and involved throughout the game and not just EoD.
Hey Quin, how is it beneficial to a civ to claim a power role at the beginning of Night when baddies are deliberating who to kill?
I understand; it just seems pretty weak for me to be your top town read. I guess it makes sense, even if I don't believe it's true -- I don't think my activity depends much, if at all, on my alignment.
Spacedaisy wrote:Why would you have not voted for Scotty? I don't know if it was a bad choice, but it makes no sense to flip your vote all over the place and not give any reason why you are voting for that person. And the fact that Scotty (the person you said you wanted to vote for) had already voted for him, it makes even less sense to me. At least I had a reason for my vote.
As far as the assessment of me, I can understand why he thinks that. He's wrong, I was not aware voting for G-Man would prevent Elo from dying. I wasn't saving her. I wasn't saving her the first time either. But I can understand why it might look that way yes. My eyeroll was not about that it was about the fact that of course you would jump on that, considering everything I've said before that about you.
Right now I could see casting a vote for Elo, Scotty, or Sorsha right now. Probably in that order. Though I might be willing to swap Scotty and Elo, I don't know. Epi's defense of her is holding me back, because he usually seems to be right, but she has gotten good at fooling him I've noticed, so yeah... Meh.
Sorsha wrote:@ Daisy- I'm a wonky person, what can I say. If that scenario didn't include you I think you'd agree that it was a good catch. As for my Scotty votes, day one I did actually vote for him initially but switched because I had two votes and didn't want to be lynched on some last minute shenanagins. Day two almost nothing happened on the beach. Scotty wasn't going to be a lynch candidate so I went with Epi, was that a bad choice? Should I have voted for gman like you?
Linki- :face palm:
I don't like the tone in this post. It reads suspicious at face value to me. It's too deflective.
I'm torn on Elo. I really, really thought she was bad. I'm less inclined to think she is, but I am not completely ignoring the perspective that she's just feigning all of this. Her contributions are weak either way, and I still think her town read of me reads like she has information that I'm town rather than any compelling in-thread reason to believe I'm town.
insertnamehere wrote:I'm stuck in the ugly situation where my two biggest scumreads are trying to lynch each other. I mean, duuude.
I agree with Elo about Quin on a couple things, one being his claim and specifically the way he's tried to play it off strike me as off. Then again, me and Quin have been going after one another since the game began- maybe I'm kinda biased.
I agree with DF that the end of both days could be interpreted as a save attempt for Elo. Specifically, Spacedaisy's D2 G-Man vote seems a little weak, and could be intended to tip the scales in his direction, especially as it comes a couple hours after DF's G-Man vote in the Hatch thread. SD basically saved Elo on D2, same as the Soneji CFD saved her on D1.
I'm inclined to go against Elo today, look at SD if she flips bad, and look at Quin if she flips civ.
I could see a universe in which DF and INH are bad and are 'setting up' easy mislynches.
Quin wrote:In looking into whether I can garner any form of motivation for a Dom kill besides it just being convenient, there wasn't much relevant content related to Dom. I found one post from both SD and DF that I'd like them to talk about some more.
Scotty came in, Sorsha said she suspected him the most but didn't want to vote someone not present to defend himself. She asked me my opinion of MP and my response was I am solidly reading civ MP this game.
Dom voted G-Man with no explanation, which is why I went back to the main thread to see if he voted him Day 1, and he did. Reading Dom in ISO made me feel like I trusted him more than anyone else in my thread at that point too.
Scotty voted Epi/Kate because he didn't flirt more with Scotty/Sawyer in his roleplay.
Sorsha voted G-Man with no explanation, then quickly switched to Epi with no explanation except that she didn't want to vote for someone not there to defend himself.
I voted G-Man because all I had was Day 1 to go off of, and I only trusted Dom because everyone else was hopped up on drugs or something judging by the way they were popping off votes with no explanation or reasoning.
Epi missed the vote.
Whole lot of nothing. Very confusing nothing.
Daisy, neither of these statements provided a definitive conclusion about you felt about Dom in the wider scope of the game, more-so it was specific to those on the beach. Help me understand why you thought this post was necessary, because I don't know why it matters how you felt about someone among an apart-from-the-obvious completely random minority. I'd also like to know your thoughts on those who were with you on the beach.
@DFaraday - in this post, you've got Dom smack bang in the middle of your rainbow list. What was your reason for this?
I didn't have any read on him at all. Same reason Daisy and Epi were in the middle. Though right now I'd move Epi down, since I'm starting to suspect Epi and Elo are bad together.
Epi not thinking anything in particular about the fact that Eloh considered going left-field with her vote doesn't jive too well with me. If we lynch Eloh and she flips bad, I don't think Epi looks great.
So I'm supposed to think Eloh is bad for that? Is that how this works?
That's just one factor. The bigger issue for me is the Day 1 lynch, which still looks like a blatant save attempt. Since G-Man wasn't being saved, the most logical option is Elo. And of course Rico suspected Elo shortly before his demise.
I found this dubious before, and I still find it dubious.
If anyone is taking advantage of a scummy-seeming town Elo, it's DFaraday.
...kind of defeats the purpose.
