The Syndicate

S~V~S wrote:Actually MP, I was talking to someone else. But my problem is that I am feeling very paranoid right now. The way things went down the other day did not help me once I stopped being upset and actually thought about it.

I do not think Boom was a lie detector. I actually am feeling like the only person I do trust anymore is DH. At this point I don't believe a word anyone says

Stop listening to your paranoia then and rationally analyze the turn of events. I don't understand how any civilian could trust DH after D10.

DharmaHelper wrote:Fuck me for not role outting or info dumping from jump street :P

I'm not saying I agree with the actions taken by some this game, but I feel I shouldn't necessarily judge too harshly, considering I technically outed myself.

S~V~S, I believe you misunderstood me, if you were referring to me.

I'd MUCH rather lynch Mongoose tomorrow. But I do firmly believe DH to be her teammate at this point, given the stunt he pulled yesterday, and his on and off very suspicious behavior all game.

I will change my vote to "who is dead". The logic timmer said works for me, and I'd rather not a baddie get it -- and as awesome as the Batman declaration is, it tells me nothing. In addition, they are tied at 3 until I change my vote, and I DO NOT want the seemer option winning.

timmer wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote: Really? Because I've voted for two Sorcerers. TWO.

You're saying that despite the lynch result we saw, that Boomslang was a sorcerer? Well Dom (a sorcerer) voted for Boomslang TWICE. So big whoop, DH. Boom has been crumbing Face of Boe ALL GAME. I see absolutely no reason to believe you, and no CERTAINLY no reason you can call yourself 100% proven to not be a baddie. Try harder.

This.

Boomslang has been claiming FoB for quite some time, and he consistently read genuine to me.

I think anyone who is actually entertaining that DH isn't bad at this point is giving into unnecessary paranoia.

zeek wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:Except its 100% impossible for me to be bad?

That is 100% not true. It's totally possible for anyone but MP and S~V~S to be lying about their role.

Agreed.

I am not voting the Seemer option for reasons timmer pointed out.

Suppose I'll just vote the Batman option.

And I've only seen an episode or two of Community, but yeah, I think Abed is a main character from that show.

Just popping in for a second, but honestly, I don't think a Seemer is likely here. But what do I know?

Having known Boomslang for a long time, he consistently sounded genuine to me all game, so if he is a bad Seemer, he's a damn good liar.

I have classes all day, so I'll be back in the evening. Curious to see what everyone else is thinking because I'm not really sure what I'll do yet.

The LAST thing I want to do is a resurrect a baddie, so if we can find an option that almost confirms a civilian, that'd be great, but looking at it now I don't see such an option. Best guess is MAYBE the "There's a seemer" one? I don't know.

juliets wrote:Why the batman option MP?

Well, I was mainly joking because Batman is awesome.

However, if one were to eliminate the following options:
- DON't TRUST PICTURES
- Tyler Durden lies
- Daisy killed me
- Wisdom Courage Power (if we DON'T want to go with an Indy for almost certain)

Then that leaves:
- Sorcerers knew Boddy
- There's a seemer
- Who is dead
- Abed is Batman

Interestingly, Batman is the only non game opinion related option. "Sorcerers knew Boddy" I'm intrigued about, but I'm not sure it seems possible or even logical, and it also makes me wonder if it was a former pissed off Boddy or teammate, whereas with "There's a seemer" I'm likewise intrigued but not sure how that's even possible this game... and I'm not sure "who is dead?" is supposed to mean.

So, at this point, I was really mostly joking, but I may consider voting for the Batman option.

If anyone can possibly try to match who the other options are besides the Zelda one, that'd be great, but my guess is that it will be very difficult. I also do not believe these were things said while alive because I'm 99% sure I don't remember anyone saying "Abed is Batman" or "Wisdom Courage Power". I'm pretty sure Epi must have asked dead players with one succinct "message" from each dead person to tell everyone, but unbeknownst to them it would be used for a resurrection poll to correspond to their name, not just the Host posting the messages.

Why do I think that? Because no one would put "DON't TRUST PICTURES" and similar such things if they were trying to woo the current crowd into convincing them to resurrect them.

Also, I'm pretty sure Wisdom Courage Power is Ninja Blooper, given her love of Zelda and the fact that was the theme when she died. :P

So if we wanted to resurrect an Indy for sure instead of possibly resurrecting a baddie, there's that.

Frankly, I'm tempted to vote the Batman option.

I'm definitely NOT voting for "Daisy killed me" because clearly that person is mistaken. I also will not vote the two that say I'm a liar and not trust me. :P

Other than that, not sure yet, so I'll vote tomorrow.

Mongoose wrote:I think the (very lovely) daisy is a baddie this go-round, so I believe the person who says s/he was killed by her. I will place my vote on that for now until convinced it's folly.

LOL.

Interesting poll... seems like a resurrection poll.

We should attempt to discern who corresponds to which option. I presume dead players perhaps submitted a thought that then corresponds to them on the poll?

Or is it something else?

Is anyone surprised?

You shouldn't be.

Can we lynch Mongoose and DH now?

Boomslang sounds genuine to me.

But I suppose we'll find out.

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Besides, S~V~S, you're my recruit, so the irony in your statement is amusing to me. :P

So, SVS and Boom are recruits. Who else you got?

Are they?

Nonetheless, I think I've said enough.

I'm just messin' with ya.

I figured.

Elohcin wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Besides, S~V~S, you're my recruit, so the irony in your statement is amusing to me. :P

So, SVS and Boom are recruits. Who else you got?

Are they?

Nonetheless, I think I've said enough.

Well, I hope this isn't a mistake, but I suppose even if it is it will be illuminating.

But thanks for lynching a recruit, guys. :P

Besides, S~V~S, you're my recruit, so the irony in your statement is amusing to me. :P

S~V~S wrote:I am beginning to have the sinking feeling someone wasn't honest when asked if he has btsc with recruits.

What makes you think that? That would be ridiculously overpowered.

Trust me, I don't have BTSC with anyone.

Also, LC, I shouldn't have to kill again if the next two lynches are both Sorcerers. But if we screw up once, then... I suppose you'll find out, won't you?

I will admit that I'm incredibly curious as to whether Boomslang is lying or not, and if he does flip civilian (specifically, FoB), it will be pretty much confirmed that Mongoose and DH are the two remaining Sorcerers. So I'm OK with it.

I'm still going to keep my vote on Mongoose, however.

juliets wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Now the only one of those assumptions I'm even ready to doubt at this point is #1, Boomslang is Face of Boe. I recognize any of them could be false, but for now I have no reason to believe that any of the others are false. I think most others are in agreement. If Boomslang isn't FoB, what he has done would be a brilliant baddie move. But let's consider... if he's NOT Face of Boe, that technically leaves the following as baddie candidates:

DH, Mongoose, Daisy, juliets, LC

I do not think Daisy is bad. I also doubt LC is bad. That leaves:

DH, Mongoose, juliets

You forgot to add boomslang's name to this list since in this situation you are assuming boomslang is not face of boe. You even say right above "if boomslang isn't FoB, what he has done would be a brilliant baddie move".

Yes, that is correct, thanks JC! Sorry folks.

Nonetheless, I think the train of thought is clear.

Hey guys!

Okay, here's the deal. I totally don't need to do this, but considering we're at endgame stages and I want to win this with you guys, I decided to be forthcoming.

Boomslang is a recruit.
Mongoose is not.

That said, I can lose a recruit tonight and still mathematically win, so I'm willing to sacrifice him if I feel it means we have better chance at nabbing a Sorcerer.

With THAT said, I think Mongoose is actually our safest bet. If every bit of information that I know is true, that means the only possible baddies could be: DH and Mongoose.

How did I get to that conclusion? If I make the following assumptions:
- Boomslang is Face of Boe (this clears juliets, Daisy, and LC)
- No inactives are bad (we've seen this because Voldy killed N6 and Crowley killed N8)
- bea and Elo are telling the truth
- timmer and zeek are telling the truth
- S~V~S is telling the truth

Now the only one of those assumptions I'm even ready to doubt at this point is #1, Boomslang is Face of Boe. I recognize any of them could be false, but for now I have no reason to believe that any of the others are false. I think most others are in agreement. If Boomslang isn't FoB, what he has done would be a brilliant baddie move. But let's consider... if he's NOT Face of Boe, that technically leaves the following as baddie candidates:

DH, Mongoose, Daisy, juliets, LC

I do not think Daisy is bad. I also doubt LC is bad. That leaves:

DH, Mongoose, juliets

Regardless, it appears to me that a Mongoose vote probably nails us a baddie regardless. Not to mention her behavior has been most sketchy IMO. Of course, she is also not a recruit, but I've admitted that, and even taking that factor out of the equation, I'd still probably vote Mongoose today over Boomslang if they were both recruits or both non-recruits.

You all can do what you want, really. Either way, this lynch will be illuminating. But I'm personally voting Mongoose.

The Suits kill on odd nights. They no longer kill on odd nights because I do (if you want proof, I just killed last night).

Why else would that be if the Suits were still alive?

DharmaHelper wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Good question, zeek. I'm not totally sure; they're difficult to read. Mongoose is my biggest suspect at the moment: Her voting record supports Sorcerer and her contributions have been trivial at best. I'm not convinced she's bad, however, so I could see my vote going elsewhere if a convincing case is made against Boomslang or juliets.

You mean a second convincing case against Boomslang? :P

Well, sure.

Frankly, I thought Boomslang seemed civvie and genuine earlier in the game, and I have a role in mind for him, possibly.

Nonetheless, I do think his behavior has been suspicious, and I could see him being a Sorcerer. I just feel more strongly about Mongoose.

Good question, zeek. I'm not totally sure; they're difficult to read. Mongoose is my biggest suspect at the moment: Her voting record supports Sorcerer and her contributions have been trivial at best. I'm not convinced she's bad, however, so I could see my vote going elsewhere if a convincing case is made against Boomslang or juliets.

Elohcin wrote:

zeek wrote:Ermm...

Guess that means Roxy, Russ or INH was a Suit.

How do you figure?

@MP...does this mean we will see no more "so-and-so was killed by Tyler"

You tell me.

Long Con wrote:As for MP07, I for one welcome our new nightkill overlord! I’d like to remind them that as a trusted Civ-minded individual, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in his underground fight club!

MP, how about an update? I assume you must have soft-recruited bea and Elohcin at the very least by now, how is your endgame looking?

Much appreciated, LC.

My chances to win at endgame are looking definitely possible at the moment. If we were to lynch both Sorcerers remaining in a row, I can very possibly win. I can still lose, however, namely if we lynch a recruit today, the Sorcerers NK a recruit tonight, and the game ends really shortly thereafter.

Now let me start off this day cycle by saying the following:

I know I've started killing now, in place of the Suits, but I assure you that it is the *Secret* part of my role and that it is only a mechanism by which I can rid the game of non-recruits. I assume that's how Epig intended it.

Because I want to see through my promise to play my game as pro-civilian as I can, and especially because I think the civilians are close to winning, and so am I, I made my kill based on the best possible way I could ensure that. The only reason I used the kill was because I needed that one kill to ensure the math for me to win. I should now be able to win. Sabie was not participating or voting, and we are nowhere near the point where the baddies can think about outnumbering us just because I killed one inactive. Because the Suits have been eliminated, that means there are only 2 baddies maximum remaining, out of 15 players, and I think we definitely have this game.

If anyone has doubts on me regarding this, I understand the gut instinct to react to me killing. I can assure you that you have my word, however.

I understand.

In death, an inactive player has a name. Her name is Sabie Twelve. Her name is Sabie Twelve.

Take that, Hatter. That's what you get for threatening me.

No one fucks with Tyler Durden.

Wow, what an interesting day period indeed. Only gets more interesting by the minute.

Did no one else get a PM from the host about the hat poll? Why was Blooper the only one?

I got around to re-skimming the sign-up thread (and more intently reading Epig's posts) and I have no idea what S~V~S is talking about either. Has anyone figured this out? I don't doubt Elo and bea necessarily, but I just don't get this.

I agree with DH. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that someone is lying about their vouching. Boomslang vouched for Daisy and LC; timmer and zeek vouch for each other; bea and Elo vouch for each other; S~V~S and juliets vouch for bea and Elo's vouching. What do people think of these? Did I forget any? I personally am most unsure of bea and Elo, but S~V~S and juliets both have vouched for it, and S~V~S seems really confident in it.

Elo, I'm confused. What are you saying? The only possibility I see for both of you to be civilian is the Doctor and his companion. So... why would you say that no one knows who you are? This just makes your vouch look strange. S~V~S, what do you make of this?

bea, what you are saying about me seems to contradict what you said before. You said you really want to trust me in your post but that you keep doubting me, but weren't you one of the few who told me to not give up and that you would listen to me after I outed myself? Can you clarify?

Regarding the Hatter's "recruiting" (to answer bea and Elo), it's all speculation from me here. I just have doubts that his role works exactly as mine, but I bet you he is recruiting or giving people hats every night or every other night. I'm not sure it has to do with voting people to vote a certain way... somehow I doubt it. I think he has complete control over his messages, considering he switched it from fucking with Made and zeek and telling them to vote a certain way, to Alice and Wonderland curse to juliets, to the threat to me, to... what I think was a troll to Daisy, and now this troll or legitimate attempt to gain LC's trust recently. If he does recruit, I bet his recruits are unaware, and that he merely "gives them hats" somehow. Maybe he can give people hats every other night and send a message every night? That's my best guess. And that he has an incentive to give people hats; similar to my condition, maybe if hats outlive hatless then he wins? And if he recruits every other night, then maybe he has other tricks up his sleeve to ensure his win. That's just my guesses on the matter.

S~V~S, is it just possible then that your potion got redirected by the Sorcerers to a civilian?

What gives me incredible pause about zeek being a Sorcerer with the potion that S~V~S gave to him:
1) The unbelievability that a Sorcerer would send a message so stupid with you alive. I just can't believe a Sorcerer would do something like this that would so easily get caught, and with no apparent motivation. We don't even know if S~V~S's potion allows message sending; if it did, why the fuck would someone do this? It makes no sense. I think this is the work of the Hatter and that S~V~S's potion obviously did something else, like give zeek BTSC with timmer. Especially since message sending is a very weak power for S~V~S's "best" power to give somebody.
2) zeek clearly pushed the Snow Dog suspicion HARD... even I may not have thrown Snow Dog under the bus like he did if I were in his position. If the Sorcerers had 3 alive instead of 2 right now, it could be a game changer.
3) Apparently, zeek had some transformation, and if he had no idea that a potion got redirected to him, then his "game event" explanation makes complete sense, and this explains why S~V~S has never gotten a wink or anything from him. It's a plausible explanation to this train of events and it actually makes more sense than a baddie redirecting S~V~S to his/her teammate (because that is risky, even if I could see someone doing that).

I believe zeek and timmer. I think zeek got the potion/role redirected to him and he is a civilian. I could be wrong, of course, but it just seems so unlikely that a baddie team would redirect the power to themselves, gain a message sending power, and then use that power to send a message that could easily be discredited and cause the lynch of the player who has the power. No incentive to do that. Considering the Hatter's message is unaccounted for (I believe, unless anyone says otherwise) other than LC's message, I firmly believe the Hatter gave LC that message.

The only way for this to be true is that zeek and timmer are pulling the most insane baddie gambit of all time. Possible, I suppose, and it would be awesome, but I just don't think it's the case at the moment. Nonetheless, I think we have bigger fish (a blooper kraken in fact) to fry today.

NOW voting and leaving because I really need to get homework done instead of pausing every 20 minutes to look at the thread.

I am voting Blooper.

See you folks after the results. Fingers crossed!

Oh, I did not get any results from the Fight. Sorry for ignoring that.

And YES, I agree, did anyone get a PM from the Hat result? Because... the fact that Blooper said she got one seems really odd to me.

Now be back later. Homework calls.

I think it's definitely between zeek and Blooper today, considering what has transpired.

Be back later.

S~V~S wrote:I do not know what it did. It was my best thing, and I wanted to give it to Bea. I had a power to give to a person, they kept their original role & power, but had this, too. I don't know what it is. I have not gotten a message, so I did not know there were any messages. Had LC gotten a message from the hatter, or Satan, or anyone else, I would not have thought twice. But Snape? From what people are saying, the Hatter messages say "The Hatter".

And perhaps they did not expect that LC would post the message or even that he got one, in the thread?

I purposely discussed this days ago in the thread when zeek was here. I know for a fact he got my Night 6 thing. Whatever it was.

But I am gonna vote for zeek now, I gotta go get ready to go. I can always change it via phone if newness comes to light.

Linki, I think Boe is still alive, and I just want to say, I have not been recruited. That is a sweet angle for the baddies to push, but if it is true, it isn't true about me, and I would rather vote baddies than maybe so/maybe no recruits.

Interesting. Thanks for clarifying!

I agree that it is odd that it says it's from Snape, but conversation about people getting messages from Snape has heated up recently, and it's especially funny that LC got a message since he specifically asked for one right before that -- and everyone knows about your Lily Potter incident -- so the Hatter could easily just sign "from Snape" at the bottom I would imagine, so why not take advantage of that and be funny? The reason I think it is Hatter too is that the Hatter told me I need to help him get rid of the hatless players. In addition, it seems the Hatter has a twisted sense of humor, given the message he sent me and the Alice in Wonderland stuff from earlier messages in the game, so I could see him thinking it would be funny to give LC a message "from Snape" after he asked for one. It also seems really odd to me that a Sorcerer would not only redirect your power to a teammate (definitely possible), get a message sending power with it (seems less likely given only Daisy and LC got these non-Snape messages, if I'm right about that, and if it was your "best" power), and would do something so stupid with it when you're still alive (this is the nail in the coffin to me... wtf?).

Nonetheless, still considering your perspective though. I wouldn't be opposed to a zeek vote at all; I just was feeling Blooper is more likely Sorcerer and Hatter. Curious what everyone else makes of this.

I think Boe is still alive too, and I wouldn't think the Hatters recruits are likely conventional recruits. But I don't know how it works exactly... and if he has only recruited say, four people (or three if he included himself in the list), and thought he could trust LC, then maybe he does have conventional recruits and that is a bit scary. I'm doubting that though... and regardless, I agree, baddies need to go first.

I am very intrigued if people can share whether they've gotten messages and who they were from because that might shed more light into S~V~S's thoughts.

nijuukyugou wrote:I have also received no PMs that anyone is discussing (save one from the host for the hat poll), so I'm extremely confused by today's round of posting/speculation.

MP, you dirty snake - you were all about berating Civs for having a reason to vote you, an Indy, because of secret win conditions that could be Civ-detrimental, and yet you're perfectly okay looking for another Indy (the Hatter) with mystery win conditions almost as much as catching a baddie :P However, your theories are interesting to think about. I am neither, and I ask once again - what is putting me in particular at the top of your baddie list?

Linki - Or yours? Looks like I may be voting to save myself, if possible. Waste of y'all's time. I'm gonna finish frosting a cake. I'll check back via phone later.

You got a PM from the host about the hat poll? I did not.

Also, here's the difference. My win conditions are stated in public on my role. If my *Secrets* (and they don't) said anything different about my win condition, then they would contradict what's in my publicly stated part of my role. The Hatter just says *Secrets*, so we don't know anything about his power or win condition. And I doubt Epig would make the Hatter's role function just like mine.

I really think LC's message makes more sense as a Hatter message because the one I got from the Hatter almost exactly matches the type of language and angle as the one LC received, but maybe I'm wrong. If that is the case, and the Hatter is NOT just trolling, and he is "recruiting" people, then you can understand why I think that might be cause for concern.

And really it's partially a process of elimination, but mostly sourced on your voting history.

Well, this is certainly interesting.

S~V~S, what night was it that you had your Lily Potter incident? And do you know what the potion did? Like is it a message sending potion?

My message from the Hatter did not say Hatter anywhere, but it was obvious it was from him. It seems DH got a message from the Hatter as well. It appears the only two messages that people are saying did NOT come from Hatter are Daisy and LC, right?

What I don't get is this:
1) Even if S~V~S's power on N6 got redirected to zeek, and the potion is a message sending potion, what benefit would a baddie gain by sending a false message from Snape, knowing that S~V~S is alive and could just discredit it?
2) We do not have proof that the Hatter has to include in his messages that it has anything to do with him. Is it possible he is just trolling?

That said, I don't trust zeek, so it's possible you're onto something.

I suppose it's possible the baddies could redirect your power to themselves, especially since you were outed as Snape... I could see them thinking that most or all of your powers were beneficial.

S~V~S, timmer did address it, but you probably missed it. It's in his post before he asks who Nichole is.

I need to stop procrastinating my homework :P so I'll tune in again in a couple of hours. I still am leaning Blooper, but I want to wait to see what comes out of this revelation as well.

S~V~S wrote:I gave someone a mystery power, and now people are getting all kinds of messages, it appears. I thought Hatter messages said "Hatter" on them. Not "Snape". I have not gotten one, though.

i have not gotten any messages.

Linki~ It could be the power I sent out. I don't know what it was. Someone other than Bea got it. And Yes, I am sure about Bea.

Oh, okay. Well, it's possible the Hatter could fake the message as a message from Snape, since mine only gave it away because of the message's content (which I assume the Hatter didn't have to reveal).

Got it, thanks.

S~V~S, do you have any doubt about bea?

timmer, I think it's telling us that the Hatter has recruited them somehow, maybe given them "hats". I also have reason to believe that the Hatter's role does not work exactly like mine, though, so I'm not totally sure what that means.

Linki w/ S~V~S: Who else could it be? I got a really similar message threatening me and it was clearly from the Hatter.

Who would recruit Elohcin, Mongoose, and S~V~S (and someone else), anyway? Those all seem like choices that someone would make based on people who weren't necessarily attracting much suspicion. And if the Hatter recruits every night, how could he only have four recruits by last night?

Intriguing, S~V~S.

timmer wrote:Who is Nichole?

It's Elohcin backwards.

I thought scrap of a name meant Blooper since her name is alphabet soup, but that was the only nickname I wasn't 100% sure of.

And duly noted, thanks timmer.

Why is zeek reading extremely civ, timmer, can you elaborate?

That said, I think I'm on for a Blooper lynch today as well. Truth is, if she isn't a Sorcerer, I bet she's the Hatter, and I'm feeling most strongly about her baddieness at the moment of all the candidates, I think.

S~V~S, are you permitted to say who it is you're talking about? Do you think that person is the Hatter then?

And my recruits do not alter the workings of the game. I am not convinced that the Hatter functions the same way, however, given his role just says *Secret*.

Oh! Nevermind, I misunderstood you then. So definitely not LC. :P

And interesting observation on zeek.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure figured out the four names now too; it wasn't difficult. I just only caught one of them immediately when reading them through (Tilde Queen, lol).

Well, where are you looking for your vote, LC?

Well, perhaps you're right, but then that makes two roles that essentially work the same way. That seems redundant -- something Epig wouldn't do. But thinking that the Hatter can somehow disrupt the game beyond the normal win conditions as Epig stated somehow seems contradictory, so that's why I never put too much concern over my message from the Hatter, but I have been slightly paranoid ever since I got it, to be frank.

Nonetheless, I agree that we should try to find baddies firstmost, but I am a bit concerned about the Hatter's win conditions, and obviously the message you got was to try to influence you to lynch those who either aren't or are those names (though I would think it would be aren't those names).

DH, are you implying that you think LC is the Hatter then? The Hedgeowl lynch is the one where LC almost died.

If DH isn't the Hatter, I'm almost convinced it's probably Blooper then. She's played the perfect game for the Hatter, totally in the shadows, and it's part of why I've been suspecting her ever since timmer brought her up in his case.

Not to mention she could be a Sorcerer as well and I may just vote for her today.

Linki w/ DH: Lol. What direction was that?

And what do people think of the code names LC mentioned? Should we try to figure out who they are? I can figure one out right away, but the others I didn't get an immediate answer for. I presume they would be recruits since it seems unlikely that everyone not listed is a recruit instead, but who knows? Maybe the Hatter doesn't fully trust LC so he didn't tell the truth anyway.

Or maybe it's all just trolling? But somehow I doubt the Hatter's role is that powerless.

I'm going to continue writing my essay and mull over this. I'll pop in and out of the thread over the afternoon.

Seriously? What else did it say, or was that it?

I've been trying to figure out ever since I got that message what "hats" meant. I figured it could be one of two things:
1) The Hatter gives people hats, somehow, maybe by targeting them -- I thought that then I was given a hat by being targeted with the message, but I thought that seemed unlikely if he called me his "hatless friend"
2) The hats correspond to whether our roles have hats

But neither of those two explanations ever fully satisfied me.