The Syndicate

Regardless of what you decide, I think this should be an excellent game, and I'm looking forward to seeing it unfold!

thellama73 wrote:I agree that eight was too many. I think five is fair, given the complexities added by the cannibals and the items. I will leave it like this unless someone makes a convincing objection. At this point I feel the baddies are at a slight disadvantage, but that's just a hunch and I think it's a relatively even match now.

Could be. 16-5-3 might tip the baddies at a disadvantage, which is why I was thinking why don't you try 16-8-3 as you did, but split up the BTSC, thereby making it 16-3-3-1-1-3? However, the 8 would be able to win together, they just wouldn't be able to regularly communicate. Perhaps even the 1-1 could be 2. Or they could send a message back and forth once or every night or something else like that?

Though 16-5-3 might work out fine.

Tough to say.

thellama73 wrote:Masters of the Universe had two mafia teams of six versus sixteen civs and two indies and that seemed to work out fine, so perhaps that's why I thought it would be okay. I definitely want you playing, but since there will be no secrets this game I see no problem with you offering suggestions. I think what I will do is just use a crew of ghost pirates for the mafia, since the men of low moral fiber and pirate leaders aren't really antagonists in the game. (see edits above.) Dos that look more even?

Here's the thing with MOTU. It was incredibly complex. I do agree it was balanced, but it's far from what I would consider the norm, and I'm not sure I'd necessarily suggest using it as a go-to guideline, unless you want to go a complex route. Besides, everyone has their opinions, but I'm attempting to use my years of experience at a few different sites and guide you using more sweeping criteria. Also, naturally, a host needs to tailor a game to his or her desires and needs, and either myself or someone else would probably be a good partner to help you along that point, assuming you wanted it, since it definitely helps to have an outside viewer with which to bounce opinion.

Even now, with as many games as I've played and hosted, I like having that person. If you don't feel my suggestions make sense, feel free not to take them, but I do think the suggestion format lends itself to any player or host with any amount of experience, on any side of the spectrum, to ask questions or contribute suggestions.

I would love to play too, so in the end that is up to you.

It could be. That would lessen the number of overall players too, correct, since you'd be taking them out of the game completely?

Epignosis wrote:I do not think BTSC is the gem MP thinks it is. In a complex game where players have a variety of powers, BTSC doesn't mean as much. BTSC is awesome if you're civ. It doesn't mean that much when you're bad and up against civs with power.

A team of 8 individuals is not to be underestimated in the slightest when you're working out the numbers. A team of that size, even without powerful night abilities, has the potential to control the lynches in a certain set of circumstances. The lynches are a period designed to more so benefit the civvies, conventionally (key word here; naturally, this can be played with, and it's something I do enjoy messing with sometimes), and the night periods are designed to more so benefit the baddies. If you strip mafia down to its core and take away all the complexities other than votes at day and a mafia killat night, that's what you get.

thellama73 wrote:There's also the point that the baddies and cannibals will have less of an opportunity to get items in this game than the civs. Pieces of eight and certain items will be won from minigames, but some of the civs start with money and can steal things, so they have an advantage there.

This is true, and like I said, it all depends on how you tailor everything. It can be difficult to make a judgment of balance, increasingly more so as you increase your game's complexity and the number of things you add in beyond the "core" of mafia.

Maybe my suggestion isn't the best, but I saw a game with a mafia of 8, in a balance of 16-8-3, and it concerned me.

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Having looked at the roles again, I have two questions.

First, am I correct to assume the first set of roles are civilian, the pirates are mafia, and the cannibals are SK/mafia?

Second, do all pirates have BTSC with each other and thus they are all one baddie team? And do the (3)'s indicate there are 3 of that role? If so, that means you have an 8-mafia team with BTSC, and that seems it could present some serious problems depending on how everything else is set up.

Yes, I am still unsure about the numbers. There would be eight mafia against sixteen civilians and three indies, who are indifferent to whether they kill mafia or civilians, really. Do you think that is too unbalanced in favor of the baddies, even with the mafia having no night powers? The other option is to have the Men of low moral fiber have BTSC with each other only, ditto for the pirate leaders and leave LeChuck and Bob on their own, maybe with an added night power for Bob.

I am certainly open to suggestions, as I am always concerned with game balance, which is a hard thing to judge ex ante.

That would be certainly unbalanced (at least in my opinion), as BTSC is a powerful tool. As a general rule, a mafia team in a game of 25-35 should not have more than 5 members, IMO, unless the game structure specifically allows for it (which is certainly possible). 8 on the same team, even if most have no powers, still presents an issue if you run the numbers, especially if they can kill. For example, let's say your 1 role that has a NK alone stays alive for quite a while, as he doesn't receive any suspicion. Let's assume civilians are lynched the first few days and killed the first few nights without any issues. Then you could be down to 10-8-3, and that's not even factoring in the cannibal kill which could target civilians or mafia, but is twice as likely to randomly hit a civilian than a mafia when the game begins (16 to 8 ratio). This could mean the civilians are very easily outnumbered after just a few cycles.

Do you feel you could somehow split the pirate team into two mafia teams? If not, perhaps your idea of splitting the BTSC up would be favorable. If so, maybe your idea would even be better, now that I think about it... I agree, split all of them into groups (3-3-1-1), but with win conditions that they do not need each other dead to win, and that would actually be one way of addressing this. Not sure if you would need to make other tweaks to counterbalance it ever slightly the other direction though; you probably would.

If you want someone to bounce ideas off of and you're OK with me not playing, I could either specify myself as the Mod on Duty for this in advance, or I'm sure someone else would be willing to step up to the plate and offer the same service.

Having looked at the roles again, I have two questions.

First, am I correct to assume the first set of roles are civilian, the pirates are mafia, and the cannibals are SK/mafia?

Second, do all pirates have BTSC with each other and thus they are all one baddie team? And do the (3)'s indicate there are 3 of that role? If so, that means you have an 8-mafia team with BTSC, and that seems it could present some serious problems depending on how everything else is set up.

This looks sweet!