The Syndicate

Turnip Head wrote:Even if L doesn't figure out exactly who Ide is, letting L decide which votes count would help protect him from the +5 hit.

Which just brings us back to which of the two would have an easier time making the right judgement calls bts, since anything L does can be screwed up if Light is on their game.

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Turnip Head wrote:I guess we would be putting a lot of trust in L... But that might be exactly what it takes to win.

It could work, my point is simply that normal voting is balanced around giving both sides a fair chance of winning, while (imo obviously), the L/Light option inherently gives the advantage to the side that can make the best use of it, and I think the mafia in general benefit far more from controlling things behind the scenes since that's what they're all about.

DharmaHelper wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.

Made wrote:I think I'm going to go l/Light just because hopefully the system will lead to Chaos and confusion that will lead to mistakes.

Because when people think in-thread chaos and confusion, the first thing that comes to mind is a civvie advantage.

thellama73 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Do it then. I have already acquired the taste of others misinterpreting my intentions from minute zero.

Very well. Explain your intentions.

I did. It's in that post. It's raising an issue on the L/Light type of voting based on how many connections or how much awareness could potentially form in both sides and which side would end up with more advantage, if this type of voting would be established over a long period of time.

But instead, I started pinging with preferring to name Light Kira (even though I said I'm willing to not do that), with being too drawn in by the theme and thus making too many assumptions based on it rather than relying on the specific-written roles (even though I apologized for making that logical jump) and being called a bullshitter for not being entirely sure if suggesting what BTSC connections could form is a way of hinting or not.

It seems likely that the Yotsuba Goup and Kira and his Sympathizers team up and become one super-baddie team with BTSC and new win conditions on Day 3.

New win conditions? I think you meant get ready to go super saiyan, building it up for 58 1/2 game phases, and then win the game.

DharmaHelper wrote:

boo wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)

It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.

I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.

1) Ok? There's already establish over civvie BTSC.
2) See 1.
3) So for the very balanced game, wouldn't potential BTSC between the two of them like the baddies seem to be capable of be more balanced?
4) I mean, I'm less surprised by cooperation between civvie roles* than I am between the lack of it with a role listed with the detectives (*who for the sake of stream-lining things I think we'll probably be referring to as the civvies, right?) that doesn't seem to cooperate with L (I mean, 2 actually Hideki and Mello both have some pretty serious anti-L potential).

You make good points, and I can obviously see the risk in going with the L/Light option vs. the traditional lynch option. High risk does not translate to very dangerous/disadvantageous in my view though.

I can ultimately see where you're coming from and I think that while neither of us are going to budge on our picks obviously, at the least we are both presenting very good discussion for anyone who has yet to vote.

Agreed, only reason I'm still posting. I've voted as well, and I'm by no means convinced I'm actually right, I just think for the people who have already checked in at least, we've pretty much establish normal and L/Light as the frontrunners and discussing it with you will be helpful to other people in addition to, in the event L/Light takes it, getting much of the discussion about the pros and cons out of the way early.

Do you have an opinion on how Ricochet handled things yet? He's on your side of the fence, so I'm wondering (since it seems Epi and MM who seem to already share my mistrust of him are looking at things with a similar bias to me) if that softens your view in comparison to people who have already expressed doubt.

Elohcin wrote:I am surprised as well that the L and Light influenced lynch is getting considered as a good option.

There are pros and cons to the high and low posters influenced lynches. High posters influenced lynches will encourage everyone to post a lot. But, I'm afraid we will have a thread full of fluff, joking, and off topic posts. Low poster influenced lynches might discourage people from posting much, but maybe it will encourage players to have meaningful posts. I think niju is a good example oh a meaningful low poster. She always tends to post once (maybe twice) each phase. Her posts are clear, concise, and helpful (when she's good). Plus, I'm a one-handed typer atm which makes this option look appealing. (stupid tendinitis from working too hard)

A normal lynch would be most fair, however. It allow all who wish to vote have their vote count.

Silent vote will not allow us to know voting records....just stupid.

Late voters/early voters...nuts. I mean early voting will make it difficult to discuss who's bad. Late voting will mean everyone is sitting at the com/phone at the last minutes trying to get their vote in at the end. What if that is 2am eastern time....my vote would never count. This is a sill way to go about things with players from all over the world.

And random? Why even play? We can all just sit back and watch players leave the game.

I'm glad you specified the one-handed typing, because on behalf of literally everyone other than you, tendinitis is not where my mind went.

ebwop: established other

DharmaHelper wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)

It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.

I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.

1) Ok? There's already establish over civvie BTSC.
2) See 1.
3) So for the very balanced game, wouldn't potential BTSC between the two of them like the baddies seem to be capable of be more balanced?
4) I mean, I'm less surprised by cooperation between civvie roles* than I am between the lack of it with a role listed with the detectives (*who for the sake of stream-lining things I think we'll probably be referring to as the civvies, right?) that doesn't seem to cooperate with L (I mean, 2 actually Hideki and Mello both have some pretty serious anti-L potential).

Ya DH, I get and don't necessarily on a theoretical level disagree with what you're saying, and unlike Ricochet I think you're arguments are coming from an honest place. I just don't think we're viewing the risk/reward in the same way, and that ultimately normal and L/Light will be out top two options with people deciding if they want to play it safe with normal or be bolder and go for L/Light. It doesn't surprise me you're attracted to the risk option.

Ricochet on the other hand, I'm already feeling bad about, because it really does feel to me like he's trying to frame the discussion in a dishonest way that makes us immediately start feeling like he's L or Watari, which for me in how he's talking about things has only really served to already make me think he's Light or Ryuk.

and more linki

Ricochet wrote:

boo wrote:Why are you guys saying L and Watari have BTSC? The role just says Watari knows L's identity, which to me implies Watari knows who has the role of L, not that L knows who Watari is or has a line of communication open with them.

It's not mentioned officially, but I have the strong feel their secrets include BTSC, stemming from the theme. Besides, how else can Watari properly "help him [L} run the logistics of his operation"?

Right, I just don't see that assumption being the best to make when we flat out know that Light has BTSC already and therefore has someone to rely on, while we do not actually know L has the same. Just seems like a way of trying to sell the option you like more in a way that isn't entirely honest.

For me, those two roles feel more like L either gets BTSC with Watari if in searching for Light he checks Watari, and/or Watari helps L by (for example) taking the hit if someone tried to NK L. If it was more civ BTSC like Raye and Naomi have, I think it would be similarly flat out stated.

Why are you guys saying L and Watari have BTSC? The role just says Watari knows L's identity, which to me implies Watari knows who has the role of L, not that L knows who Watari is or has a line of communication open with them.

Ricochet wrote:Kira is mentioned in his role name, though.

And 3 (at least?) other roles. It is confusing.

DharmaHelper wrote:

boo wrote:I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read

The way I see it, having an idea at any given point of who L and Light decide to put on their list and leave off their list gives us the best chance of finding Kira. It may seem risky, allowing Kira to put his team on his list and therefore make sure their votes count at least for one, but if its played right, and if we think it through right, The L/Kira option could lead us into finding more evidence against mafia.

I mean, I get where you're coming from, and your argument for it is pretty much the sum of what makes it a good option. I just think there are too many variables that make the risk of it higher than the reward. First, what happens if L dies (which, in the early game, seems more likely to me than a baddie with BTSC going down)? Maybe it passes down, maybe Light takes a ton of control, maybe it will just be for D1 so it doesn't matter, but that right off that bat is a big enough issue that I don't like or trust the option.

From his description, Light is manipulative, so lynch manipulation in the role would seem fitting. Then there's some BTSC with the potential of more (it sounds like). It just takes a lot less effort for Light to use that option to control lynches and get away with it (a few lynches in would give Light and L a far better idea of how the weighting works than it would the thread at large, and that information would then be open to be used to greater effect to a baddie team than a lone civvie imo).

I dunno, you're right that it could work, if L is really on top of things, manages to trust and mistrust the right people without actually giving anything anyway within the thread, predicts Light correctly to manage the list in the right way, and does all of that without painting a target on their back... but that seems a lot of pressure to put on one person, and if lynches were to be run that way the whole game, I just don't see it paying off. If it were a smaller and typical baddie team instead of a team of 7 (with another team of 7), L, assuming they did an awesome job, could feasibly play it how you're hoping for, in the best case scenario. But given the baddie team set up, it just doesn't seem possible to me (I mean, if you were L, would you want what you're hoping from them to be on them all game, assuming the option decides how lynches work the entire game), cause I really wouldn't.

I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read

I kind of have a hard time believing each lynch would be run by whichever of these options win. Hideki at least has some vote manipulation built in, and who knows how many other roles do. Including that in roles and then doing this for D0 wouldn't quite make sense to me. Plus, if L/Light wins, and then one of them dies, what would happen? So it makes me think we're just picking an option for how the D1 lynch will occur, even though the language in some of the descriptions doesn't seem to point to that (high/low/early/late all just say may have, not will have, and nihilistic says every lynch). So, the safest option would seem to be just go with the normal one, since MP is insane and every lynch may wind up being random or run by a single person or small group of people if any other option were to be picked. I suppose secret ballot wouldn't be included in that, but with almost every role having secrets, losing even more information by not knowing how people even voted just seems crazy. So I'm going with normal.