The Syndicate

FZ. wrote:llama

This only goes to show that sometimes people can built a supposedly great case and be awfully wrong. I don't care to defend every point, because I've done it already when each point was brought up.
I'll just say that I wish you all knew how I play a baddie. I never defend someone who is on my side. Sadly, I'm more like MP in that sense. But I get you won't take my word for it (you can always go on K-site and look at my baddie games).

I defended Snowman when I thought he was a civ, and voted for him when I thought he wasn't. Plain and simple. I've got nothing to hide, so I do what I believe, not what is best for me.

I'm defending TH because unlike people claim, I think he's being helpful, and even if he is what people think he is, there's no point in voting him now, so it will wait for later. When he first voted early, I found it suspicious. When I saw how he behaved, I realised the vote wasn't a regular one, so I went back on that suspicion.

Saying I voted for Elo when it was inevitable is a freaking lie. I was the first one to say she was acting like a baddie, and said I had no problem voting for her. I voted late because that's who I am. I don't vote early unless I am sure, or the votes can be changed.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Blue, blue, electric blue, that's the color of my room, where I will live...

I put that there just for you.

Low is definitely Bowie's best album and easily one of my favorite albums of all time.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Blue, blue, electric blue, that's the color of my room, where I will live...

FZ. wrote:I wonder if there are people whose secret roles say that when they are lynched, they don't die but rather change alignment or something happens to them, which is why people are behaving odd hoping to be lynched

thellama73 wrote:So TH is bad:

FZ. wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I noticed somebody has already voted for Llama. They must feel pretty confident about their vote.

When I said I was waiting to see something, it was regarding TH. all the last games I've played with him (at least to the extent I remember), when he was a civ, he voted almost last. He's a lot more indecisive. This very early vote gets you the and maybe even my vote

TH is acting out of character:

FZ. wrote:Two things are catching my eye at the moment:

1. Way too many people are behaving out of character.
Epi wants to vote for an absent player.
TH is voting early for llama without any reason whatsoever.
Ace is apparently posting a lot more than people are used from him.
I had more, but I forgot by the time I got here.

2. There seems to be some very strong 1 on 1 battles, which is something I'm not used to seeing in these games, especially not on day 1
DH and Epi
Ace and Trice
TH and llama

I'm assuming this is somehow related to the nature of the game, but I'm also thinking that maybe there are roles of winning terms that require taking out a specific player. Not sure what it says about the alignment of the players. I've played games where one of the mafia had to kill another in order to win, and I know the opposite can be done as well.

But these strong convictions are worrying on day 1 to say the least.

TH is suddenly good:

FZ. wrote:SVS, you said that you expect baddies not to be as aggressive because they don't know who they are lynching. But the thing is, they'll probably be voting anyway, and the chances of them getting a baddie are just as high when they play a less aggressive game. I would say this is their chance to go really strongly after players because if they take out one of their own, they'll just end up looking good without having to carry the guilt of throwing a team mate under the bus ("hey, I didn't know").

So maybe those going so strongly after others have an agenda after all

linki: llama, the thing that's making me hesitate with TH is the fact that he seems so casual and laid back, which I agree with SVS is more indicative of his civ game

TH continues to act out of character:

FZ. wrote:It's funny how TH is not even trying to come up with a reason to vote llama

TH CONTINUES to act out of character:

FZ. wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:I can think of a few reasons for TH to not want to vote for somebody he thinks is bad

1) TH is bad and doesn't want to kill a teammate
2) TH is bad and knows that's not his teammate, but doesn't want to be involved with lynching a civ
3) TH threw out a random idea he doesn't even believe

anyone got other theories?

FWIW, I never made the connection before that the strict daily regimen thing would mean posting challenges, but it seems possible now that it's been pointed out

I have not ruled out voting for Russ in subsequent lynches, and hopefully by then we'll also hear his side of the story (if the silence only lasts today).

Did you get a challenge to vote for llama and get people talking about how ridiculous your vote is?

TH is good and anyone who says otherwise must die. This emerged slightly after TH openly said he doesn't want to lynch baddies.

FZ. wrote: Crazy enough, I'm actually contemplating voting for llama. I don't feel like he's his usual self. I feel like he knows TH's reason for voting him can't be true baddie TH, because he wouldn't do that, yet he's going after him and trying to find something to justify it with. I also don't think that TH's indecisiveness regarding the D0 vote was fishy in any way, and I don't think llama really thought it was either.
Something about how llama is playing strikes me as not genuine

Also there's this. People defending Yotsuba are likely bad:

FZ. wrote:The person most likely to feel it's important to depict Yotsuba as good guys is the one who's a Kira

Discussing Yotsuba is a waste of time. Nothing to see here.

FZ. wrote: Why does it even matter at this point? If you think Epi is a Yotsuba, do you really think he's the one we should be focusing on now? Unless you think he's a baddie talking about the Yotsuba. If he's a baddie, making the Yotsuba seem baddies to us is much better strategy. Either way, it's a waste of time

Nobody's buying what you're selling, FZ.

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I think the FZ case is interesting. She stated she was thinking about voting for me and I hit her back hard. After that, she immediately backed off, which is not what I expected her to do. She's definitely someone I want to look at more going into Day 2.

For crying out loud, that's how I play. I accuse people and hear what they have to say, and then decide.

Why am I not on your list of "might have voted fors"?

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote: I have no idea, and that's why I waited. I know some people are seeing me as a baddie because I'm kind of all over the place this game, but screw them. I'm allowed to hesitate, and this game is giving me a headache. Too much conversation.
As a player who came from another site where one day lasts 5 real days, and there's endless talk, it was refreshing to not have so much to catch up when I play here. I can't concentrate. That's why I like the speed games, because there are less players. I find it easier to find suspicious posts when they are not drowned in a sea of posts and arguments.

And now back to catching up. By the way, didn't Trice die? Did anyone resurrect him? I guess I'll find out

STIFLING DISCUSSION!

thellama73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

FZ. wrote:Epi, aside from voting me, which obviously won't do much, who among those with votes are you willing to vote for?

See, this is what drives me bat-shit insane. I'm supposed to vote Snowman now because voting elsewhere won't do much? I will vote where I like, even if that person currently has zero votes.

I really think you are no good FZ.

Epi, she's trying to collect votes so as to lynch anyone but Snowman, in whom she has placed sudden and unexplained trust.

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote: The following seems nothing like playing the noob card. He knows perfectly well what he's saying, and he saying your reasoning sucks.

You mean the "what's his deal?" strawman reasoning I never used? Please. That post was dismissive at best.

Forget the "what's his deal". He lists the suspicion on him, and he's right that they don't hold water. I have no problem with voting newbies if I think I'm seeing something bad, hence my almost vote for both Zombarella and Snowman yesterday, but I agree with Boo that you're not following your own standards, because it seems as though you've painted the target and now you're drawing the circles around it. After you voted, anything he might have said would have been interpreted to fit your theory.

He didn't list the main reason I suspected him. He "reinterpreted" it as "what's his deal?"

thellama73 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Okay, Logic 101, because apparently people need it.

FX, Elohcin, and TH all made positive claims amount the amount of BTSC in the game at present. Those are assumptions.

I pointed out that those claims are not necessarily correct - they might be correct, but the only way you could know that is if you have inside information. This is not an assumption. This is pointing out that the positive claims present lack evidence.

No, MP said that the baddies start without BTSC. Any assumptions on changes, are just that, assumptions. We know how it started out. You've been claiming BTSC between people as a reason from the start of the game

Please demonstrate where I have claimed BTSC between people as a reason for voting for them.

And also, that's not what MP said. Light and Ryuk start the game with BTSC.

Matahari wrote:Llama, I went back through some of your posts to see what you are noticing about FZ. Sometimes you have agreed with her comments, but more often have questioned them. Do you think she is being inconsistent, and is that a sign that she is bad? Or did I miss something more damning in my read through/skim?

FZ. wrote:Bass, sorry to hear about your week

RIP Zombarella. I actually thought she was L at some point, but the message says otherwise.


I didn't get the message about Bea. Does it mean L doesn't think Bea is Kira but could be a Kira supporter or something similar? Or was it something else?
If she isn't a Kira, do we want to go after her at this point?


I am still wondering about BR. I get the feeling like she isn't putting herself out there. Like I said, in the last few games, she was more aggressive or more in the middle of things, and I'm not getting that feeling. Could be a detective laying low, but could also be bad. And no one seems to even mention her besides me. Is it that everyone is just sure she isn't bad?

Also, when looking at the "Kira laying low" theory, how is it, that we aren't looking at those players more closely?

Epignosis wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Well I am pretty pleased with this result. I know it isn't Kira, but I consider any chance to whittle down the Sympathizer team time well spent. BIH Eloh.

Second time she played an MP game and got screwed by forced out of her control. In Bioshock, she was Kyle Fitzpatrick.

DharmaHelper wrote: Perhaps I should have said I considere LC and SVS to have different playstyles than Aces, and that informs my theory. And regardless of the thread, people (and particularly killers) are creatures of habit. It's only natural that a subconscious pattern would emerge.

DharmaHelper wrote:On the bright side, This supports the idea that Higuchi is the killer now.

Elohcin wrote:One more defense I thought of just now. Most of you know how I play Mafia. Don't you think if I were a kira sympathizer I would play it cool and quiet like so many other players are in this game? Especially since as a kira sympathizer I would at least start out with no BTSC. Why would I be so vocal if I were not a detective. Talking only puts attention onto myself.

linki, so why did you vote me already, DH?

Epignosis wrote:The shitty thing is that if- if- someone convinces others to vote elsewhere today, and that lynch yields unfavorable results, the mentality will be "See, we should have lynched Eloh." And then the eye will be on the person who convinced others to vote elsewhere.

Very little incentive for anyone to make a big push elsewhere today.

Ricochet wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

thellama73 wrote:No one listens to my sage counsel that the best defense is a good offense.

Still waiting on part 2 of your sage counsel, though, on how to possibly point at a better suspect when you are the most likely, worst looking, most damning suspect of all (especially early in the game, I might add, though not the case here).

You don't expect me to give away all my secrets, do you?

Nope, only to refrain from giving advices to players who can't use them successfully one bit.

Ricochet wrote:

thellama73 wrote:No one listens to my sage counsel that the best defense is a good offense.

Still waiting on part 2 of your sage counsel, though, on how to possibly point at a better suspect when you are the most likely, worst looking, most damning suspect of all (especially early in the game, I might add, though not the case here).

You don't expect me to give away all my secrets, do you?

FZ. wrote: linki: Good offense as in "good" not crappy, right?

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote: How does you not being comfortable with someone's assumptions make them lynch candidates?

Because there are reasons for making those assumptions that are inconsistent with the detectives interests.
1. It's possible that a Kira sympathizer without BTSC would comment on how little BTSC there is, based on their inside knowledge.
2. It's possible that a Kira sympathizer with BTSC would want to convince the thread that they do not have it.

Surprisingly, it's also possible that a detective, or whatever else there is that is not baddie, would say that it seems there's less BTSC in this game, just because that's what they think, and they're trying to figure out how to approach the game when the baddies may not know about one another. The important thing is, you're never assuming

DharmaHelper wrote:

Ricochet wrote:What if he targeted an unkillable player? His secrets do state that he's allowed to kill anyone he desires, no matter of alignment.

He has had no problem in killing his targets thus far,

FZ. wrote: How does you not being comfortable with someone's assumptions make them lynch candidates?

FZ. wrote:If you want to lynch TH to test your hypothesis, why not lynch Elo to test other hypotheses concerning L? If she comes out good, we know we can't trust what he says. If she comes out bad, we know that maybe he's come to that conclusion because he's very smart (like he's supposed to be), and what he's doing isn't exactly infodumping which we all ASSUME MP would not let him do

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote: linki: A lot of these BTSC happen after the Kiras (one of them) gains a death note or starts killing. Since we've only seen one death, I doubt any of these have happened....though I didn't carefully read all of them, just skimmed

We've only seen one death? I guess SVS doesn't count. Poor SVS

NO idea why I said one. But still, I doubt many have gained BTSC at this point.

Black Rock wrote:Maybe I just don't understand everything from not watching the show but why shouldn't I trust L? Why wouldn't we want to vote a sympathizer? I consider them a mafia group and I thought the object of the game was to lynch them. Maybe it's as simple as L outing Eloh and that just happens. Am I crazy here?

juliets wrote:I am back in the thread and have decided to continue with the game because it keeps my mind occupied. Thank you to those of you who passed on good thoughts and yes DH, jokes would be good, especially if they are about llama and Epi.

thellama73 wrote:So TH is bad:

FZ. wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I noticed somebody has already voted for Llama. They must feel pretty confident about their vote.

When I said I was waiting to see something, it was regarding TH. all the last games I've played with him (at least to the extent I remember), when he was a civ, he voted almost last. He's a lot more indecisive. This very early vote gets you the and maybe even my vote

TH is acting out of character:

FZ. wrote:Two things are catching my eye at the moment:

1. Way too many people are behaving out of character.
Epi wants to vote for an absent player.
TH is voting early for llama without any reason whatsoever.
Ace is apparently posting a lot more than people are used from him.
I had more, but I forgot by the time I got here.

2. There seems to be some very strong 1 on 1 battles, which is something I'm not used to seeing in these games, especially not on day 1
DH and Epi
Ace and Trice
TH and llama

I'm assuming this is somehow related to the nature of the game, but I'm also thinking that maybe there are roles of winning terms that require taking out a specific player. Not sure what it says about the alignment of the players. I've played games where one of the mafia had to kill another in order to win, and I know the opposite can be done as well.

But these strong convictions are worrying on day 1 to say the least.

TH is suddenly good:

FZ. wrote:SVS, you said that you expect baddies not to be as aggressive because they don't know who they are lynching. But the thing is, they'll probably be voting anyway, and the chances of them getting a baddie are just as high when they play a less aggressive game. I would say this is their chance to go really strongly after players because if they take out one of their own, they'll just end up looking good without having to carry the guilt of throwing a team mate under the bus ("hey, I didn't know").

So maybe those going so strongly after others have an agenda after all

linki: llama, the thing that's making me hesitate with TH is the fact that he seems so casual and laid back, which I agree with SVS is more indicative of his civ game

TH continues to act out of character:

FZ. wrote:It's funny how TH is not even trying to come up with a reason to vote llama

TH CONTINUES to act out of character:

FZ. wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

triceratopzeuhl wrote:I can think of a few reasons for TH to not want to vote for somebody he thinks is bad

1) TH is bad and doesn't want to kill a teammate
2) TH is bad and knows that's not his teammate, but doesn't want to be involved with lynching a civ
3) TH threw out a random idea he doesn't even believe

anyone got other theories?

FWIW, I never made the connection before that the strict daily regimen thing would mean posting challenges, but it seems possible now that it's been pointed out

I have not ruled out voting for Russ in subsequent lynches, and hopefully by then we'll also hear his side of the story (if the silence only lasts today).

Did you get a challenge to vote for llama and get people talking about how ridiculous your vote is?

TH is good and anyone who says otherwise must die. This emerged slightly after TH openly said he doesn't want to lynch baddies.

FZ. wrote: Crazy enough, I'm actually contemplating voting for llama. I don't feel like he's his usual self. I feel like he knows TH's reason for voting him can't be true baddie TH, because he wouldn't do that, yet he's going after him and trying to find something to justify it with. I also don't think that TH's indecisiveness regarding the D0 vote was fishy in any way, and I don't think llama really thought it was either.
Something about how llama is playing strikes me as not genuine

Also there's this. People defending Yotsuba are likely bad:

FZ. wrote:The person most likely to feel it's important to depict Yotsuba as good guys is the one who's a Kira

Discussing Yotsuba is a waste of time. Nothing to see here.

FZ. wrote: Why does it even matter at this point? If you think Epi is a Yotsuba, do you really think he's the one we should be focusing on now? Unless you think he's a baddie talking about the Yotsuba. If he's a baddie, making the Yotsuba seem baddies to us is much better strategy. Either way, it's a waste of time

Nobody's buying what you're selling, FZ.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I've felt better about FZ lately llama. What is it you see in her?

I also haven't reread Eloh which I will do today.

Linki: Oh ninja.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I don't think we should lynch DH today, or TH.

Epignosis wrote:I would feel more comfortable if we all just stopped quoting Turnip Head's posts.

Elohcin wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:Elo who do you think could be a Kira sympathizer?

Elohcin wrote: I wasn't assuming. There is "very little BTSC" in this game right now at this moment as compared to other Mafia games. That is a fact you can know by reading the roles. Get over it, deary.

Elohcin wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:L seems absolutely sure about this one but I hate to go simply off of info. Elo why do you think L would say that about you?

I have no clue. He seems to think he knows me. There are so many mechanics in this game...I just don't know.

Black Rock wrote:

Zomberella12 wrote:Hey everybody. I have a read on Elo. I think she's a Kira sympathizer. Should we lynch her?

Also, yay no one got night killed!

lol, I think I got the same lead.

FZ. wrote: The claims are not stated by me. They were stated by the host in the beginning of the game. There is less baddie BTSC in this game from the start, and that's a fact. Even if they gained more, they didn't all get it in two days.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:My vote's going to FZ tomorrow, based on her "you've been claiming BTSC between people as a reason from the start of the game" blatant lie.

Linki TH. You can have reasons for defending people without having BTSC with them, and you'll notice that's the last, therefore least important of the multiple reasons I voted for you.

Linki FZ: Oh, I didn't realize the Snowman lynch was THE START OF THE GAME. I must have been confused by the Day number.

Watari knows who L is, sure.

Can you name any baddies where this would hold true? (without assuming)

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Ricochet wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Do it then. I have already acquired the taste of others misinterpreting my intentions from minute zero.

Very well. Explain your intentions.

I did. It's in that post. It's raising an issue on the L/Light type of voting based on how many connections or how much awareness could potentially form in both sides and which side would end up with more advantage, if this type of voting would be established over a long period of time.

But instead, I started pinging with preferring to name Light Kira (even though I said I'm willing to not do that), with being too drawn in by the theme and thus making too many assumptions based on it rather than relying on the specific-written roles (even though I apologized for making that logical jump) and being called a bullshitter for not being entirely sure if suggesting what BTSC connections could form is a way of hinting or not.

It seems likely that the Yotsuba Goup and Kira and his Sympathizers team up and become one super-baddie team with BTSC and new win conditions on Day 3.

This is one of your posts from very early in the game. I just feel like you keep bringing up the BTSC issue as something that is more present in the game than we know of. I call that assumption just as any other assumption that's been made in this game.

And you did say he might be suspicious because of that

thellama73 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:boo defended Snowman despite his view that active players should not be lynched over inactives.

Snowman was, for me, inactive.

TH was also a vocal defender of Snowman. I'm not sure what level of BTSC the Kira sympathizers have at this point, but I find it noteworthy.

You want to vote for me for that stupid reason, have fun

DharmaHelper wrote:OK All this on topic discussion is great but can we get back to solving puzzles.

Turnip Head wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Please demonstrate where I have claimed BTSC between people as a reason for voting for them.

Didn't you vote for me because I defended Snowman? Doesn't that mean you assumed I had BTSC with him?

Err wait, you would never assume anything, so that can't be right...

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Okay, Logic 101, because apparently people need it.

FX, Elohcin, and TH all made positive claims amount the amount of BTSC in the game at present. Those are assumptions.

I pointed out that those claims are not necessarily correct - they might be correct, but the only way you could know that is if you have inside information. This is not an assumption. This is pointing out that the positive claims present lack evidence.

No, MP said that the baddies start without BTSC. Any assumptions on changes, are just that, assumptions. We know how it started out. You've been claiming BTSC between people as a reason from the start of the game

Please demonstrate where I have claimed BTSC between people as a reason for voting for them.

FZ. wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Okay, Logic 101, because apparently people need it.

FX, Elohcin, and TH all made positive claims amount the amount of BTSC in the game at present. Those are assumptions.

I pointed out that those claims are not necessarily correct - they might be correct, but the only way you could know that is if you have inside information. This is not an assumption. This is pointing out that the positive claims present lack evidence.

No, MP said that the baddies start without BTSC. Any assumptions on changes, are just that, assumptions. We know how it started out. You've been claiming BTSC between people as a reason from the start of the game

FZ. wrote: I agree, you're assuming too....or you know something this from first hand :P