The Syndicate

Next, let's look at this post. MM was the first one to point out that women were being killed. Could be sincere, or he might be lampshading his own strategy. Or if I were a Freudian, I might say it looks like guilt over his kill targets coming out. Again, I lay the post before the court.

Marmot wrote:Those Republican assholes are eliminating women at an alarming rate.

Hillary would be most displeased, as am I.

Epignosis wrote:
Marmot wrote:
Epignosis wrote:If notsawyer is bad, I bet MM is bad too.

I imagine them in BTSC, MM's teammates frustrated that he has pledged to not Night kill me (thanks MM!), but having to do something about me. So they go balls to the wall to get me lynched, unaware that they cleared me Night 1.

And even if notsawyer isn't bad, I bet MM is bad anyway.
You've made it past Day 1, so you've concluded that I'm mafia?

Is your code never to kill me Night 1 or never to kill me?

Marmot wrote: It's definitely not me, I woulda killed Epignosis Night 1.

I want to call attention to this post on Day 1. I remember thinking it was odd at the time. It was preceded by no interaction between Metalmarsh89 and Jack, and seemed to come out of the blue to me. How do other people read this interaction?

Marmot wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Marmot wrote:None of the Post links in the OP work.
I've memorized the thread.

What are you looking for?
The part where you admitted you're mafia.

Marmot wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I need to reread MM today. Haven't given him a good hard look in a while, so it's on my to do list.
Read Skeletor while you'really at it.

Okay, I will.

I need to reread MM today. Haven't given him a good hard look in a while, so it's on my to do list.

Epignosis wrote:"Consider: If he's mafia, then he knows I'm not bad, so what's his exit strategy should he prove successful?"

Assuming you are civ, his exit strategy would be the same as that of anyone who leads a lynch on a civ. "Oops, I was wrong. I feel stupid." As someone who routinely leads mislynches in games, I find that I don't often get lynched in return for it.

Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote: So forgive me if I don't put any stock in your so-called "cases."
You're forgiven. I hope you'll extend me the same courtesy and forgive me for not putting much stock in your reads, given that they have cost us SVS and Quin.
And got the serial killer Day 1.

Quin wasn't a "read." Quin was a preferred option over notsawyer, whom I have reasons to view as a civilian. The reasons I had for Quin were less convincing.
That's fair. I'm still going to vote for Sawyer tomorrow. And I still consider you a friend.
Did you ever factor the below into your suspicion?

Spoiler: show
Epignosis wrote:
DFaraday wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I want to know the following from everybody:

1. Where you stand on notsawyer and why.
I'm leaning bad on Notsawyer because he is tunneling Epi, forcing the facts to fit his suspicion (ie., blaming Epi alone for SVS's lynch), and cites Epi's lack of caught baddies despite the fact that Notsawyer is hardly looking at anyone but Epi, and so has also caught no baddies.

thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I want to know the following from everybody:

1. Where you stand on notsawyer and why.
I think Sawyer has looked bad from Day 1. His equivocating, his dismissiveness, and his case on you seems forced. He is getting my vote today.

Long Con wrote:1. Where you stand on notsawyer and why.
I'm kind of okay with notsawyer. Epignosis' suspicion of him has some influence on me, but overall I think this interaction is civ/civ. I think his accusations seem genuine enough, even if I don't agree with them.
I am of two minds on notsawyer. If he were a Syndicate regular, someone with whom I had experience interacting with, I might have a clearer opinion of him, because a stubborn insistence is a trait I am more likely to believe comes from a civilian. Consider: If he's mafia, then he knows I'm not bad, so what's his exit strategy should he prove successful? I call that short-term gain, long-term loss.

Moreover, notsawyer is taking three votes right from the get-go and his reaction to all this is to double down on his smear campaign:

notsawyer540 wrote:I'm going to be out of the house until this evening. I'll catch back up and post my overall thoughts on everyone as soon as I get a chance.

One question I would like answered is: Have I really been forcing evidence to fit my conclusions, or has Epi's Fox-News-style misrepresentation of facts and events fooled too many of you?
In his first post since the Day began, he asks a loaded question and uses the phrase "misrepresentation of facts" without mentioning a single fact I misrepresented. And he asked me for evidence, and when I gave him plenty, he had nothing to say about it. That's not encouraging.

Still, if notsawyer is mafia, then he has accomplished nothing more than setting himself for the lynch today without even the consolation prize of getting me lynched first- and he doesn't seem fazed by that.

Which part of it? That post contains four different opinions of Sawyer. What am I supposed to be looking for? The part where you argue that if Notsawyer is bad, he is not very good at it? Lots of baddies are not very good at it. It doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch them.

Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote: So forgive me if I don't put any stock in your so-called "cases."
You're forgiven. I hope you'll extend me the same courtesy and forgive me for not putting much stock in your reads, given that they have cost us SVS and Quin.
And got the serial killer Day 1.

Quin wasn't a "read." Quin was a preferred option over notsawyer, whom I have reasons to view as a civilian. The reasons I had for Quin were less convincing.

That's fair. I'm still going to vote for Sawyer tomorrow. And I still consider you a friend.

Epignosis wrote: So forgive me if I don't put any stock in your so-called "cases."

You're forgiven. I hope you'll extend me the same courtesy and forgive me for not putting much stock in your reads, given that they have cost us SVS and Quin.

Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Sawyer, are you still maintaining your innocence in the wake of that fiasco?
How does the fiasco make him guilty? Break it down for me.
The fiasco doesn't make him guilty, the role given to him by G-Man makes him guilty. His behavior reveals his guilt. And the fiasco teaches me to trust my own instincts and not go along with the cool kids.
"The wake of that fiasco" doesn't have anything to do with the role G-Man gave him either.

You are now citing his behavior that reveals his guilt. Walk me through what he said and did that is so revealing.

Epi, I get that you think Sawyer is a civ. I think you are wrong. I'm tired right now, but if you really don't remember/don't want to look for it, I will dig up my explanation of why I think Sawyer is bad first thing in the morning for you, okay?

Long Con wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Sawyer, are you still maintaining your innocence in the wake of that fiasco?
How does the fiasco make him guilty? Break it down for me.
The fiasco doesn't make him guilty, the role given to him by G-Man makes him guilty. His behavior reveals his guilt. And the fiasco teaches me to trust my own instincts and not go along with the cool kids.
Maybe it would be better if you were less pedantic about it, and read Epi's question the way you know he intended it - "How does the fiasco behaviour reveal his guilt?" or something like that.

I've made my case on him a bunch of times. The only thing that has changed is that a whole host of people rushed in to rescue him at the last minute. That looks suspicious because people with teammates are more likely to be saved at the last minute than people without teammates, but mainly I just stand by my original case. I am annoyed that I allowed myself to be dissuaded from voting for my first choice by groupthink. As a wise man once said, "none of us is as dumb as all of us."

Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Sawyer, are you still maintaining your innocence in the wake of that fiasco?
How does the fiasco make him guilty? Break it down for me.

The fiasco doesn't make him guilty, the role given to him by G-Man makes him guilty. His behavior reveals his guilt. And the fiasco teaches me to trust my own instincts and not go along with the cool kids.

Sawyer, are you still maintaining your innocence in the wake of that fiasco?

Sorry Quin. I really thought you slipped in that one post.

Well, I'll go ahead and change my vote too, I guess. It likely won't make a difference, but all the cool kids are doing it, and I want to be cool.

I'm still around if people want to discuss things.

I'm just glad Long Con came to his senses.

And Metalmars89, I commented earlier thta I am willing to lynch Quin, Wilgy, and Sawyer. Epi seems very unhappy with the Sawyer lynch, and I am willing to take thta into consideration because I trust him this game, but I distrust sawyer and am happy to see him lynched as well.

notsawyer540 wrote:We would need llama, dfaraday, or floyd to change their vote.

If Epi and I both change our votes, you would still need at least one more.

DrWilgy wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Now I have to think about the fact tha the two people I trust least are voting for Quin, and what thta means, if anything. Oh, sweet WIFOM.
Why are you still suspicious of me Llama?

Have I not voiced enough for you to analyze and discuss my recent events?

Also, Is this WIFOM if I'm civ or only if I'm bad? It's definitely not self induced WIFOM like Epi's "I'd not kill Eloh n1."

If Quin flips civ am I definitely bad? If Quin flips bad am I definitely civ? Is this a distancing power play that I'm making due to my vote having little power? Is my vote warranted based on my past interactions with Quin?

#endlazyplay

That's the wrong question. The right question is "why would I stop being suspicious of you?" And the answer to that is "No reason."

It's WIFOM because I have to decide whether the people I think are bad are voting Quin because he's a civ alternative to Sawyer, or because they are bussing a teammate. If Quin is bad, I would say one of either you or Sawyer is bad with him. If quini is good, then both you and Sawyer are bad.

Now I have to think about the fact tha the two people I trust least are voting for Quin, and what thta means, if anything. Oh, sweet WIFOM.

Marmot wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Quin wrote:
S~V~S wrote:Quin missed my original point and misinterpreted my question. Hence we are talking in circles.

Placeholder vote on Quin. I don't think my original point was that obscure.
You had the chance to reiterate your point. Why didn't you take it, and instead choose to believe that I'm (assumedly purposefully) misinterpreting your question?
Quin, aren't you known for having several page long arguments over nuances of language aka talking in circles?

I don't fault S-V-S for this at all. That said, I don't think it's necessarily a scumtell for you so.

And that's all I have to say about that.
While we're on the subject of Quin, who wants to talk about this doozy of a post from jack?

He acknowledges the case on Quin, but equivocates nicely.

Linki: I voted LC because he was rude to Floyd, so just a placeholder really.

That is well observed. That first sentence is definitely something I could see a teammate writing.

I could be persuaded to vote for Quin or Wilgy if people want to pile their votes there. I am also happy leaving my vote where it is.

Epignosis wrote:I'm about to pull my hair out.

Stop lynching people for doing things that are weird, inconsistent, unhelpful, or that you just don't like.

Tell me what they have to gain by doing what they do IF THEY ARE MAFIA.

If you are voting notsawyer, explain to me why he did what he did as mafia.

I've explained my vote in the terms you ask. I didn't vote for him because he was weird. I voted for him because he has done things that mafia do more than civilians do them.

Quin wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Quin wrote:list them*.
You know what they are.
No, I don't.

Yooooouuuuuuuuu knoooooooowwwwww

Quin wrote:list them*.

You know what they are.

Quin wrote: I recall Long Con be the only one who wasn't also on the chopping block to express any degree of suspicion towards me. Would you not agree that it's unlikely that I'd be a 'frustrated baddie' at this point?

No I don't agree with that at all. I see lots of reasons for you to be frustrated.

Quin wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Quin wrote: And, both. This is civilian Quin though. I'd be unanimously town-read if I was bad.
Oh wait a minute! Just when I was about ready to plant Quin firmly in my Civ column, he lets loose with this howler.

"I'm playing exactly like a civvie. Nothing I'm doing indicates in the slightest that I am bad." The universal emotions of a frustrated baddie who feels he's played a great game but is losing anyway (I've been there many times.)

I really, really distrust this post.
It's amazing how much you can take out of a post which says literally none of that

It says all of that and more, Mr. Subtext. Clap while you can.

Quin wrote: And, both. This is civilian Quin though. I'd be unanimously town-read if I was bad.

Oh wait a minute! Just when I was about ready to plant Quin firmly in my Civ column, he lets loose with this howler.

"I'm playing exactly like a civvie. Nothing I'm doing indicates in the slightest that I am bad." The universal emotions of a frustrated baddie who feels he's played a great game but is losing anyway (I've been there many times.)

I really, really distrust this post.

DrWilgy wrote:What do you mean?

lol

Epignosis wrote:Llama, you used a curious word in describing notsawyer: "Equivocating." How does this adjective apply to notsawyer? "Resolute" or "stubborn" is the word I would have used.

I'll have to dig up my original post where I accused him of that when I'm feeling less sick/tired than I am now, but briefly he spent part of Day0/1 saying things like "On the one hand... on the other hand... but I'm not sure... or it COULD be..." which I regard as a baddie tell. Baddies tend to be noncommittal (moreso than civvies) because committing to a viewpoint leaves you vulnerable when you are proven wrong (as baddies must eventually be). Granted he's being a lot less noncommittal in his case on you, biut only after I called him out.

Epignosis wrote:I want to know the following from everybody:

1. Where you stand on notsawyer and why.
I think Sawyer has looked bad from Day 1. His equivocating, his dismissiveness, and his case on you seems forced. He is getting my vote today.

2. Where you stand on Marmot and why.
I currently have no suspicions of Metalmarsh89.

3. Where you stand on Floyd and why.
Floyd is absentee, which could explain the lack of a kill last night, but we've had other kills. He's probably a typical absentee civvie.

4. Where you stand on DFaraday and why.
I do not really understand the case on DF. No reason to distrust him yet.

5. Where you stand on Quin and why.
I'm leaning civ on Quin now after my meta analysis of his past games.

6. Where you stand on thellama73 and why.
Supatown.

7. Where you stand on Long Con and why.
I can't read LC. It wouldn't surprise me if he were bad.

You get the idea. If I left you out, it wasn't personal.

Start talking. Tell me why you're good. Tell me why others are bad. Go.

Wilgy is the other baddie, though.

Hey guys, I wanted to quickly note that I've been on a two day intensive video shoot for work, today being the second day, so that's why I haven't been around. I should be finished this after noon and will be back to participate. Sorry for my inactivity, and yay no death!

Sorry my posts are so forgettable.

Voting Cory Booker, because I like the REDEEM Act he cosponsored with Rand Paul.

Glad that's over. Now on to more important matters. BIH Jack.

Almost forgot to get back before the day ended. Moving my vote back to Jack because obviously.

DrWilgy wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:llama, what do you make of MM naming me his top suspect for forgetting about Quin?
I personally find it hard to believe anyone really suspects you. Of all the people in the game, I think I suspect you least. Doesn't make Metalmarsh89 bad, but I think he's wrong.
Does it make me bad?
Only the role handed out to you by the host makes you bad.
You know what I meant you sassy Llama. You stated that MM's suspicion on Epi doesn't make him bad (meaning it's not a baddie tell). Is my suspicion on Epi a baddie tell?

linki - a shame the stupid is seeping out of me today then...

I meant it's not necessarily a baddie tell, but to answer your question, I think you are bad, but not because you suspect Epi. I have other reasons, which I have previously cited.
I think Jack's teammates are you, Sawyer, and maybe one other who I haven't pinned down yet.

Marmot wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:llama, what do you make of MM naming me his top suspect for forgetting about Quin?
I personally find it hard to believe anyone really suspects you. Of all the people in the game, I think I suspect you least. Doesn't make Metalmarsh89 bad, but I think he's wrong.
Do you find my case hard to believe, or Epignosis being mafia hard to believe?

Linki: noooooo

I find your case unconvincing, not hard to believe.

DrWilgy wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:llama, what do you make of MM naming me his top suspect for forgetting about Quin?
I personally find it hard to believe anyone really suspects you. Of all the people in the game, I think I suspect you least. Doesn't make Metalmarsh89 bad, but I think he's wrong.
Does it make me bad?

Only the role handed out to you by the host makes you bad.

And I think a lot of people in here are using the word "rational" when what they really mean is "logical."

Epignosis wrote:llama, what do you make of MM naming me his top suspect for forgetting about Quin?

I personally find it hard to believe anyone really suspects you. Of all the people in the game, I think I suspect you least. Doesn't make Metalmarsh89 bad, but I think he's wrong.

I'm moving my vote to Metalmarsh89 for no reason.

Epignosis wrote:
notsawyer540 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I don't know. I'm not counting.
I wish I had been. It's quite a few, and iirc it hasn't been the confirmed baddie at all.
So moving my vote around a lot means I'm bad. Got it.

I quite like that you're moving you vote a lot. If nothing else, it has increased discussion. Sawyer is bad and just looking for flimsy things to pin on you.

Long Con wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I'm starting to feel left out. I think I'm close to the only person Epi hasn't voted for today.
Aw, I'll vote for you again, if it will make you feel better!

Believe me, I feel very loved by you.

I'm starting to feel left out. I think I'm close to the only person Epi hasn't voted for today.

Marmot wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I took my vote off of Wilgy and placed it on MM.

And I forgot Quin was even in this.
I'm busy.

Why'd you put your vote on me. You just asked everyone where they'd vote and why. What's your why?

I'm also busy, but I'm pleased to see the thread has come to its senses and is finally prepared to lynch the only person we know is bad.

Moving vote to Jack.

(I'm putting my vote on Wilgy for now, just because I like the way the vote spread visually looks, but I intend to move it later).

Despite Epi's apparent mental lapse above, I don't think he is bad. I don't give credence to the "oh I would never kill Eloh because I love her so much" play (also known as The Ika Defense), but I don't think he would have pushed so hard, and continue to push so hard, against lynching the outed baddie. I won't be voting for Epi today.

I could be persuaded to vote for Wilgy or Sawyer, but I'd really rather lynch Jack and get it over with. At least it will put an end to having to have this argument every day.

Marmot wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Also, my team is Epi, LC, Marmot and Quin.
I've never been mafia with Epignosis though.

Or llama, or Sockface. How the hell does that happen?

That's because I'm never mafia. I am always good.

Epignosis wrote:This chickenshit attempt to put "pressure" on me is pitiful.

I didn't kill Eloh Night 1, and I didn't kill my own fucking teammate.

Now put on your big boy pants and find the mafia. Unless you are the mafia, then take off the big boy pants, because my foot's a-comin.

Epi, FZ's role has been revealed. We know she was civ. "I didn't kill my own teammate" is meaningless in this context, since obviously FZ wasn't on the same team as the people who killed her.

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