The Syndicate

I'm about 630 pages in. I fully expect you to beat me to the end. Truthfully, I have found it much less interesting after they left the Math.

Mongoose wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Mongoose wrote:I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

Barring some kind of societal collapse, I think it's probable that we wouldn't be able to understand them, but improbable that they wouldn't be able to understand us, or at least read our writing.

Here's an example of why I don't think we will be able to understand future generations (although I like your idea that they will be able to understand us).

My sister is 16.

This was a recent facebook status of hers: "HMU or LMS if u wanna kik me. YOLO!"

I had to perform web searches for many things in that statement.

That's hilarious. The only thing I understood was YOLO. But that's slang. Slang is obviously gonna change a lot. Formal writing or speech remains much the same as it was 200 years ago.

Mongoose wrote:I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

Barring some kind of societal collapse, I think it's probable that we wouldn't be able to understand them, but improbable that they wouldn't be able to understand us, or at least read our writing.

Mongoose wrote: The invented lexicon is useful in many ways. Language evolves greatly in a period of 200 years. We can read and understand documents from the American Revolution, but some of the words are spelled differently or the syntax is different or it sounds more or less formal. Shakespearean language can be trying for those of us not scholars in the same, but you can generally make out what's going on. However, looking at Middle English and beyond, you can't make all of it out or maybe even half. And forget Old English or Occitan.

That's what bothers me about films and books that show the future. There's no way we would be able to communicate with our progeny 500 years from now. Think of just how radically different the accents alone would be.
The language would evolve so much in that amount of time that we might not even be able to understand them at all. I don't know if English will evolve or devolve in the next 500 years, but with acronyms on the rise and misspellings of words to save space becoming more acceptably, you can guess which guess I'd make.

Invented lexicon works for this environment because it's not our environment. This is not our collective experience. We don't have these sorts of communes, so why not give them an original name? Instead of calling them rites, call them auts.

JK Rowling made up a lot of her own lexicon to propel her narrative but the words were often derived from French or Latin, so they made sense. I feel like Stephenson is doing the same thing here. The author doesn't want us to feel too comfortable in this new world; it's not something we could experience in our own world in the coming years, so he sets us apart from it by using foreign and alien words for ideas that are foreign and alien to us.

Why do you think he used the invented lexicon?

Do you think this book is set in the Future? The level of technology seems reasonably similar to our own. I think it's just an alternate universe.

I disagree with you about language evolution. Ever since the invention of the printing press in the 15th century, the rate of change of English has been slowing. This is because we now have a way to check ourselves against the past. Almost everyone has heard some Shakespeare in their lives, so it remains familiar to us. Even if we don't talk like that, we can understand it. I think we will still be able to understand it in five hundred years.

Look at the changes from Beowulf to Chaucer. Mutually unintelligible. Then look at Chaucer to Milton, about 200 years later. Different, but they would have been able to understand one another. The look at Milton to anything from the mid-nineteenth century, another 200 years. Pretty much the same language. Now that we are all communicating with people all over the world on the internet and reading books from 500 years ago, I doubt whether language will ever truly change in the way it did when communities were isolated from each other for hundreds of years at a time.

As something of a language buff, I really like that Stephenson (and Rowling) keep their words grounded in Indo-European roots rather than just making up words. It makes comprehension so much easier. Reading A Clockwork Orange is an entirely different experience when you have studied a bit of Russian.

I think Stephenson used the new lexicon for a couple of reasons. Mainly, to give a sense of novelty to things that would otherwise sound boring and familiar. Using words like "aut" instead of ritual and and "avout" instead of monk, for example, keeps usas readers from going "oh, yeah, a story about monks, I get it."
Second, he needs new words to express new concepts, usually the melding of two ideas into one. "Anathem" is an anthem that anathematizes someone. An "upsight" is an insight into a higher truth. It also helps make the world he has built seem richer, since he has crafted a historical etymology for many of these words.

Mongoose wrote:I'm having a little trouble with what speculative fiction means. It just means alternative universe kinda right? I'm trying to learn all the terminology, but basically people live in these enclaves and don't interact with the outside world except once every 1, 10, 100, or 1000 years, dependent on their sect? And instead of religion, it's more of an intellectual commune. And there are all these rites and holidays and stuff. Like one where they extract a member to go out and share and help develop the secular world.

Is that kinda right? Also it seems like Erasmus is the protag, but I'm not sure.

All that is right. Speculative fiction is a catch all term for science fiction/fantasy/horror or any type of fiction that imagines things that are not real.

I quite like the idea of the isolated communities devoted to intellectualism, sort of like a university except it lasts longer and there is less contact with the outside world. The rituals (called "auts") are a very interesting part of it, being run with different bell patterns and having different meanings. The one you refer to of being called back into the outside world is called Voco, clearly derived from the Latin Vocare, to call.

Here is the first discussion question I wrote down: How does Stephenson’s use of invented lexicon contribute to the narrative?

Mongoose wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

bea wrote:Yes! Hunter's wasn't over the top enough tbh. but it caught the essance pretty well. Also it was funny to read him tell people to not do drugs.

See, when I read that I kind of assumed the author had actually gotten quotes about the book from those people, instead of just making them up. Is this an insane thing to think?

Yes, it is, haha. They are obviously fabricated. Right?!? He did a dang ole fine job of fabricating those stories and interviews. I don't have a copy of the book with me.

Bea, can you look up some of those (fake) citations and see if any are real/legit?

Llama, do we need a new thread for Anathem or are we going to chat about it in here?

But why couldn't they have been in on it? Danielewski phones them up, tells them about the book and asks for a fake quote. Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me.

This thread is not that active. I think we can do Anathem here.

bea wrote:Yes! Hunter's wasn't over the top enough tbh. but it caught the essance pretty well. Also it was funny to read him tell people to not do drugs.

See, when I read that I kind of assumed the author had actually gotten quotes about the book from those people, instead of just making them up. Is this an insane thing to think?

Mongoose wrote:

Vompatti wrote:I used to read a lot of long novels when I was in high school but recently I've noticed I tend to lose interest before I even begin.

There are a TON of good short story compendiums (compendia?) these days.

I'm of the opinion that few can equal the genius of Philip K. Dick when it comes to short stories.

Mongoose wrote:Llama Lo - My mom sent me birthday money so I finally got your ebooks today!

Yay! Although I would have just sent them to you if you had asked. :S

Mongoose wrote:Does this mean you like the main story but not the Johnny Truant story? I didn't really like him much.

Yeah, that guy is a jerk.

Mongoose wrote:Llama lo, I got Anathem in today.

Cool! I am liking it more and more the further I get into it.

S~V~S wrote:I went in and added you, Logan, I did the fan thing and sent a request on Goodreads. I would like to read your stuff. I am in between books right now, so the timing would be good.

Awesome, thanks! If you PM me your email address and which books you want to read, I will send you the files.

bea wrote:@ goosey - I'm sure that is a mirror and an echo of something. A pimple - it's an obsticale...

@ lama - I thought the first one was ok - are you saying - I really don't want to jump down that rabbit hole? because he's hecka expecting me to be all in bc he and I like GOT so much...

This is just my own personal opinion, but I read five of those books before I gave up in frustration and flung them at the wall. I also thought the first one was fairly decent, but as you go along less and less happens and it begins to feel like each book is nothing more than an 800 page advertisement for the next one. I think I gave up in book five when I realized that there had been no plot for 500 pages. The more I read, the more I began to loathe the series.

bea wrote: My work friend is hecka mad at me becuase I put off "the wheel of time book 2" to read this.

Extremely good decision.

Mongoose wrote: Llama Lo - Do you have any more thoughts about the book? More literal musings. For instance, did you think it was creepy crawly?

Actually, I didn't find it scary at all and was really surprised when I kept reading reviews that talked about not being able to read it at night and things like that. There was a lot of empty hallways, but empty hallways by themselves don't seem particularly frightening to me.

It's been quite a few years since I read it, so I don't know if I have any other thoughts to really contribute. I liked the weird patterns of text on some of the pages and how "house" always appears in blue, and I liked some of the ridiulous footnotes that list several hundred styles of architecture, for example.

FYI: On the advice of Mongoose, I've started an author page on GoodReads. If anyone here is interested in reviewing my books, let me know and I will send you a free PDF. First you get the reviews, then you get the power, then you get the women.

Mongoose wrote:I still need to get your latest novel.

Almost done with the new one. Just seven chapters left!

What do I have to do to get my books into that ILL system? I would love to have a book I wrote in a library. You should all demand it!

Mongoose wrote:

thellama73 wrote:After you guys finish House of Leaves, Mafia Book Club should read Anathem by Neal Stephenson. I am reading it now and it is very unique and interesting.

I really need to read some Neal Stephenson so I will take you up on that. Can you write down some discussion questions as you go along?

Okay!

Hedgeowl wrote:Will likes that one I think, Llama. Is Anathem part of a series?

Well, my library did not have it, so I will have to order it looks like. Off to Amazon!

It is not part of a series, no. Amazon is charging $11.65 for it, which is outrageous because the list price on the back cover is $8.99, which is what I got it for a Barnes & Noble. Odd, since usually Amazon has lower prices than retail stores.

After you guys finish House of Leaves, Mafia Book Club should read Anathem by Neal Stephenson. I am reading it now and it is very unique and interesting.

I have read both House of Leaves and Jonathan Strange. I have a very definite and different interpretation of the former than anyone else I know. I did not view it as a "scary" story at all, but rather as a satire of academic writing. I thought the whole book was one big send up of the conventions and pretensions of academia and the way they approach communication. Just my opinion, but I've never heard anyone else echo it, so I thought it worth mentioning.

I really liked Jonathan Strange, but it did bog down a bit at the end. It's been a long time since I read either of them.