The Syndicate

Fetch wrote:){ :& };:

Fetch wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:

Fetch wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:Also, I honestly didn't even realize I missed the last two votes. I'm real sorry, I think playing two mafia games at the same time has gotten me a bit over my head. I won't miss the vote today.

EBWOP: I planned to vote Mac on day six and somehow just forgot to press the button. Even said so in the thread. D'oy.

I still feel very bad about Mac and he will be getting my vote again.

Are you sure?

Spoiler: show

I voted for Mac for reasons stated above.

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Roxy wrote:I think it's time we lynch Drumbeats. I did an ISO on him and here's what I got.

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DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

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DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

That would seem to be an impossible task. That'd require quite a few lynches and they'd all take the place of a player lynch, seriously decreasing the number of opportunities to lynch baddies.

Maybe a combo of lynches and scum kills/vigilante kills.

How about we make a deal with scum here, since we both need the Process dead.

If scum kills a process element tonight, we will as a town lynch one tomorrow.

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DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

That would seem to be an impossible task. That'd require quite a few lynches and they'd all take the place of a player lynch, seriously decreasing the number of opportunities to lynch baddies.

Maybe a combo of lynches and scum kills/vigilante kills.

How about we make a deal with scum here, since we both need the Process dead.

If scum kills a process element tonight, we will as a town lynch one tomorrow.

Wouldn't it be much more efficient to just try to lynch the player with the role? We have no idea how the game will progress from this starting point and what information or circumstances we might encounter to facilitate that hunt. It's a four man scum team, and this kind of significant Process-oriented focus is the opposite of how to pursue their elimination. Pending ability strength variables, I think town starts this game behind the eight ball in the numbers as it is.

Hence why we make it a deal with the scum. We do not get behind if scum shoots the process instead of us. However, if both factions allow the process to go unimpeded for the bulk of the game, I bet it will take both of us down in endgame easily. It seems to have a lot of roles. I think it is very reasonable to be proactive in getting rid of it early, as long as the scumteam proves their cooperation by shooting first. Only person who should be opposed to this arrangement is the process itself.

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DrumBeats wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Lastly, for the idea that DrumBeats proposed regarding working "with the mafia" to eliminate The Process, I don't think worrying about this at this stage is healthy, since:
1) I don't know how we are supposed to effectively hunt for The Process at this time.
2) You can never "trust" the mafia enough to work with them on something.

Nonetheless, it does seem both factions have a mutual benefit in ridding the game of The Process, so I think inadvertently the mafia will be working with us on that matter. I don't think any specific attempt to work with them would be at all fruitful, unless we reach a certain point later in the game where we can somehow try to pinpoint The Process based on actual hunting procedures, and at that time we can re-open this discussion. But that's just my opinion.

Trying to shut down talk of taking out the Process are we? Noted.

It is healthy and arguably necessary to discuss this early in the game. Both factions have a mutual benefit, we will know we can trust the mafia to work with us should they kill one of the process elements tonight. Then we equivalent exchange lynch one the next day. It benefits everyone besides the Process and does nothing to disrupt the town/scum ratio.

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DrumBeats wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:By what everyone has responded to my plan, it's clear the very few people have actually read, or at least understood, it. I am not proposing that we blindly trust the mafia and repeatedly lynch process elements. I am stating that we should lynch a process element when and only when the mafia nightkills one.

The cheerleader element implies that the mafia can shoot process elements. We don't have to trust the mafia, we literally just wait for them to shoot a process element instead of one of us, and then we lynch a process element the next day. No trust involved because we will know the next day that they kept their end of the bargain.

How does this actually address identifying and killing the person behind the role though?

By allowing us to hit them when the time comes. I guarantee you at least one of those is something that keeps them safe. If we cut off the Process's power it won't be able to hurt us as much later. Also, if you look at the cheerleader it says that it's vote is worth one. I'm worried that the process will get more votes the longer we wait. We've got nothing to lose, assuming mafia targets them and not a civ first.

And in regards to your more recent post, there really is not anything to further this. My only thought on it is that if we do not agree to the terms as a town, I doubt the mafia will target the Process because they would not trust us to keep up our end. Hence why I've been pushing the idea, hoping to save us from a civ shot tonight.

Also, MP, what are your thoughts on Zebra and the potential scumslip I mentioned?

I'll respond with some more reads in a second but my primary one is scum!Zebra

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Roxy wrote:So here's almost half of drumbeats posts, they deal mostly with finding and eliminating the process via targeting the elements. 1st of all, I don't understand were the notion that the elements are the process came from.

Epignosis wrote:The Process will manifest itself in multiple ways.

Makes me think that there are both players and elements that serve the process. Perhaps some are civs and some are mafia. All I know is that this game isn't as clear cut as some believe.

Something to be noted about the last &^*@^#$*& was Drumbeats worry. Drumbeats not only encouraged mafia to kill an element (a cute one at that), but was also worried about the elements. Perhaps that worry caught up to Drumbeats and forced his hand during last nights NK?

Also in Drumbeat's &(*@#(* quote, we see first sign of suspicion towards Zebra, based on supposed slip.

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DrumBeats wrote:Here are the reads I have atm:

Town reads/leans:
MovingPictures07 - Seems to be genuinely pushing discussion
Elohcin - Active and given me no reason to suspect them. Could be a biased opinion due to them being the one person who actually acknowledged my idea without twisting it into "lets ignore the mafia"
JJJ - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting. A little less active than he seems to usually be but he's in a ton of games at once right now iirc.

Null reads:
DrWigly - How the hell do you read somebody like this
Matt - Seems to be different than the conspiracy theory Matt I've seen before, though I'm not sure what that says of his alignment. Very unhelpful and I don't like the early vote, but I'm still not sure here.

Scum reads/leans:
Zebra - Potential scumslip, plus acting WAY too confused about everything. Has contributed nothing and locked a vote way early. My largest scumread right now.
Illyria - Haven't seen much here, but one thing I noticed is that I think Illyria is just skimming. Illyria expressed distaste for my plan saying that we can't trust the mafia and then basically suggested a less civ-beneficial version my plan by saying we should just wait a few days and do it. Should that idea go through it would get rid of scum obligation in removing the threat, which makes me scum lean Illyria a bit.

Dependent read:
Nutella - Depending on the answer to my last question.

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Roxy wrote:A townread on Eloh, a scumread as two players I ANALYZE as being good... noted in Illyria re// Drum seems to have a solid mindset on what the mafia want to do, and will do (from last night). A vague gap left for Wilgy.

@DRUMBEATS how did Wilgy compare to Illyria?

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DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:Aw bye Illy, sad to see you go. Welcome Mac.

Drum: I admit I didn't fully understand your plan at first. But I still think it's somewhat dangerous to focus on lynching the one rogue rather than the mafia, and we don't even fully understand how targeting elements of the Process works. It just seems like a waste of lynch opportunities to me -- perhaps it would weaken the Process but at the cost of keeping the mafia alive.

Gotcha, thanks for the answer of there was no malicious intent possible. It was an opportunistic suspicion that you thought you could bank on without actually having a base for it.

Current "vote": Nutella

Fabricating a scumread for malicious intent that you cannot back up or provide makes the read feel forced and opportunistic.

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Roxy wrote:Looking back. Calling Nutella Juice opportunistic for not agreeing with your plan and starting the Nutella Juice line of product isn't a good look.

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DrumBeats wrote:

nijuukyugou wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:nijuukyugou

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nijuukyugou wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:Wait how is it STILL Day 1?

How are you still confused by the mechanics? What's going on with you, zeebs? This is weird as shit.

Linki @ DrumBeats - Your plan, however, at its core, is to trust mafia to any extent, which is not viable. They already have a large team for a speed game with only 17 players. Again, part of the theory works, and I agree we need to keep a hell of an eye on the Process and prevent what we can, but trusting mafia to help civs is not gonna work for a civ win.

This is snipped from a larger post. She asserted that Zebra's behavior was "weird as shit", but didn't make a definitive accusation. I'll follow the progression.

Her comment @DrumBeats strikes me as a misconstruing of what he was proposing. This came after he reiterated/restated his idea to emphasize that it required no actual trust of the baddie team (because it required them to make the first move). I'm not sure what trust nijuu was suggesting had to exist for this plan to function. I don't know whether that means anything, but it's something nijuu can talk about and perhaps that'll substantiate any resulting read.

Argh. Now I understand how DrumBeats felt. I didn't misconstrue what he proposed, at least as far as I know. I know the plan was contingent upon the mafia acting first in civilian favor. I reiterate that even if this happened, it STILL requires trust in the mafia to do the back and forth, and for us to be on their side by lynching an element. They would still have to comply in lynching the element with us, too. But I suppose now that I think about it, it would be hard to hide if you chose not to vote along as an "agreement." Still, it's too risky, their team is too big, and there are too many unknowns at this point, especially at the point that the plan was proposed. Does that make sense? I don't blame him or think he's bad for suggesting the plan; I just don't think it's a good idea.

I'll post more substantially later tonight or tomorrow, but I did want to respond to that first.

Linki - The site's been kinda funky lately, at least for me, and I think others, as well, but tonight it's cooperating

Nope, you don't know how I felt because you didn't have literally the whole thread misconstrue and not actually read what you were saying. I will say it again though, no trust is needed. It doesn't even have to be a back and forth with the mafia, I'm just proposing a 1:1 trade with them. They kill an element instead of us, we lynch one. Easy and harmless for us, and it hurts the Process.

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Roxy wrote:Rather harsh to say the whole thread miscontrue'd something. Miscontrue'd is not a string within my database. Unkown if this hurts the process, but Drum continues pushing the notion.

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DrumBeats wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I'm glad McDougall is here. He can usually see through the nonsense. The Cell reads JJJ as inconclusive. Is that not suspicious to anyone else?

Think you're grasping at straws there. There are barrels of WIFOM behind anything the Process posts, anything they say about people are inconclusive honestly. You grasping onto that makes me wonder if you're scum or mafia trying to take an easy shot.

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Roxy wrote:All accusations of opportunism are discredited based on data above. Seems to be a common angle with Drum. Slips and calling opportunism. Perhaps it can be called opportunism here, but these claims seem too easy.

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DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:Aw bye Illy, sad to see you go. Welcome Mac.

Drum: I admit I didn't fully understand your plan at first. But I still think it's somewhat dangerous to focus on lynching the one rogue rather than the mafia, and we don't even fully understand how targeting elements of the Process works. It just seems like a waste of lynch opportunities to me -- perhaps it would weaken the Process but at the cost of keeping the mafia alive.

Gotcha, thanks for the answer of there was no malicious intent possible. It was an opportunistic suspicion that you thought you could bank on without actually having a base for it.

Current "vote": Nutella

Fabricating a scumread for malicious intent that you cannot back up or provide makes the read feel forced and opportunistic.

What are you talking about? Of course there could be malicious intent in steering the lynches away from the mafia. I said that it would be dangerous, and it was a reasonable at the time to think you might have intentions of keeping the mafia alive. And it still could be, but again I don't really suspect you as much anymore; that doesn't mean my original suspicion was unfounded or opportunistic. It may have been exaggerated by a misunderstanding of your plan but it was still legitimate and can still apply to the clarified plan.

It definitely was opportunistic and here's why:

-All of the info about the plan was out there before you posted it. You knew it was a trade-off rather than a "Let's all lynch only the Process." Despite this, you are only highlighting the part of the plan that allows for a push, ie the "wasting" of a lynch. Intentionally neglecting the requirements for us to "waste" our lynch, which is the mafia "wasting" their kill on the previous night, makes your reasoning seem sound, despite its numerous fallacies.

-Enough people were uncomfortable with the idea at the time that it would be an opportunity for an easy push based on mere paranoia. Pointing out "malicious intent" without specifying anything was a great way to try to shift that paranoia into a mislynch, either that day or down the line.

-Nothing has changed about my plan since you made this post, but now that you have received backlash for it, the suspicion is no longer present. The only two things that have changed are that you have received backlash and that a few more people are opening up to my idea. The fact that you let go of your suspicion now shows that it is likely due to either wanting to avoid the backlash, or realizing the opportunity to push a mislynch on it is gone now, because nothing about the plan/my behavior has changed. Also, in your first response to my question about the malicious intent, you never elaborated upon it, just starting to give the "I didn't fully understand it" defense, which we will get into in the next bullet point

-The confusion about the plan allows for the easy cop out defense which you are providing right now: "I didn't understand it." It was very clearly laid out, and for town!you to develop a scumread upon it, I would expect you to have paid enough attention to it to know both aspects of it and that it hinges upon the mafia acting first, therefore maintaining a 1:1 lynch:kill ratio.

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Roxy wrote:I find this humorous. RIP in peace Nutella brand Juice cartons.

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DrumBeats wrote:I've laid out my reasons and I do not find Elo to be a better option imo.

Nutella

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Roxy wrote:Mentioning Elo, where it doesn't need to be mentioned is a very bad look.

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Roxy wrote:My final processing of Drumbeats is rather bad. Two theories come to mind. He's either mafia, or he is somehow aligned with the process. These set in stone thoughts about the process leads me to believe he might know more than others, and wants others to think in a certain manner. His confiding in the mafia to eliminate us also can point to either Drum being mafia or process. I do not believe eliminating me will assist in your search for the process, and I do believe we are being scapegoated. Mentions of Elo that are wrong, or misplaced cause for worry. Voting off wagon civs until his wagon came around is not good either.

Final percent:
70% Mafia
30% Process

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DrumBeats

nijuukyugou wrote:

agleaminranks wrote:Niju is getting my vote. MP, check my post in response to yours.

You have no explanation for this. Explain, please.

Nerolunar wrote:And it was probably a night action that provoked this poll change, so even if we lynch the wrong guy(me) then we can examine Squid and MP closer since one of them is guaranteed to be bad.

Not necessarily. I'm still of the mind that this is random annoying night action shenanigans. Or Epi shenanigans. Or both.

Nerolunar wrote:I don´t think that we are all civ. Spending a whole day without the opportunity to lynch a baddie is not good design imo. Epignosis knows this.

Epi does what he wants to amuse himself. This amuses him. He once had a night poll in which people were asked if they had "enough courage," and everyone who voted "yes" was put on the poll the next day, and everyone who didn't was left off. All who voted were civilian, if I recall correctly. This man has no soul

Nerolunar wrote:Voted Niju. She seems worse to me than MPm, although had it not been for this poll I would read her as civ. Oh well.

I just beat Sybil in the game It is an amazing soundtrack.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I also don't appreciate the vote. Why am I worse than MP? Is it the tentacles?

I think I want to see MP as bad, because he tricks me (especially when he puts me at the top of his lists. But for good reason ), but I'm reading him as good this game. The point about his silencing and the mafia role power that reacts to targeting makes this argument stronger. And his explanation of changing his thoughts about Eloh rang true - I also saw her frustration with mafia in general as genuine at first, but then grew mightily suspicious when she kept going after Matt, etc. etc. (I've been over this, not gonna rehash).

Nero, alas, your avoidance of voting for Eloh in the last lynch makes you look worse out of the two of you. Voting Nero.

MacDougall wrote:Scotty... that dastardly one.

Can someone give me a bone to chew on here... A lead to mull over. A pigs ear. A cold pint?