The Syndicate

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:23 am how did epi post 243 times

most of them were about how he was drunk or clueless or both.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:21 am

Sloonei is good.

chorus of groans

I have 100 posts already?

I'm not sure these lowly folks deserve gods as majestic as we are, pal.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:20 am If there were no claims, I’d vote for Epi over funnygurl 9 times out of 10 here.

Yeah.

Epi just generally looks sketchy and resigned (and like I said, in a way that looks like he's hiding something). FG mostly looks genuine and interested in solving.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:17 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:01 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am I mean, it's sort of due to the fact that you backed up the silly flavor thing. That's just silly.
She has an eagle. It's already silly.
The sillyest of all, utter poppycock if you’ll pardon me, however, is this ludicrous suggestion, deprived of all empirical evidence, whereby a lone eagle could triumph over an entire seaward vessel! I will not have it.
This is incredible. I'm sending it to Sockys2020.

I also sent [mention]MacDougall[/mention]'s mafia-themed version of the navy seal copypasta, btw. That was good shit.

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:11 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:10 am I suppose there is also some chance that Sloonei actually shot Ted and is just claiming credit for the TH kill which was actually by Mac. But Sloonei's suspicion of TH is well documented from earlier, and he didn't know he was going to have a vig shot until sometime during d2, and he wouldn't have known Mac would kill TH if that's what happened. So all pretty far-fetched.
Hold on. I actually believe this one. I didn't even consider that, thanks a lot. I believe Sloonei actually shot Ted and is a wolf.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:13 am Thanks a lot nutella

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:03 am y'all are thinking too much

this is simpler than you're making it out to be. like i get why you have to do this, but still. idk what to do other than make faces at my laptop

Yeah I think this is probably just town.

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:02 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:59 am True true.

Wait.

I just realized something obvious.

FG also saw Ted and Drago target Mac N1, yes?

They don't have pirate ships.

So that further corroborates that Mac didn't use it N1.

That whole argument was stupid.

Well, the idea is that Funnygurl could be lying. I personally do not believe it, but some people do.
We are also ignoring the possibility that Mac can still be targeted, and shown as targeted, but actions simply fail. Though in that instance Funnygurl's watch would still have to be immune to the fail effect.

Yeah, I thought of that as well. Eh whatever. I'm over this

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:01 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am I mean, it's sort of due to the fact that you backed up the silly flavor thing. That's just silly.
She has an eagle. It's already silly.
The sillyest of all, utter poppycock if you’ll pardon me, however, is this ludicrous suggestion, deprived of all empirical evidence, whereby a lone eagle could triumph over an entire seaward vessel! I will not have it.

This is incredible. I'm sending it to Sockys2020.

I suppose there is also some chance that Sloonei actually shot Ted and is just claiming credit for the TH kill which was actually by Mac. But Sloonei's suspicion of TH is well documented from earlier, and he didn't know he was going to have a vig shot until sometime during d2, and he wouldn't have known Mac would kill TH if that's what happened. So all pretty far-fetched.

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:23 am Is it bad if I still wolf read you for tone, behavior, and asking terrible questions all day?
I just have to keep in mind that if you were a wolf, you would have already won last night.

If you want to believe Sloonei is a wolf, you have to believe that he vigged his own teammate.

I realize that's not impossible, but knowing Sloonei I find it extremely unlikely.

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:20 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:16 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:14 am I... really think massclaiming is the right thing to do. If JJJ disagrees, then I cannot really push the issue further, but I believe it would increase our odds of winning, however slight.
Why?
It gives us a clearer mechanical picture of what happened on nights 1 and 2, it has a chance for us to structure a plan of action to lock a winning night phase, and it gives mafia a small chance to out themselves.

I think it's fairly likely the mafia have fakeclaims, fwiw. As someone who won a game as scum with fakeclaims where massclaiming ended up helping my team (Fire Emblem), I'd be careful with this.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:11 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:09 am There, I know I am town, so the wolves can go ahead and hammer. They are not doing so, so I cannot help but be certain that Epignosis is mafia (and furthermore that funnygurl is not).
multiple players are not here right now.

Yeah that's why all this hammer analysis is unreliable and obnoxious

Wait no Epi doesn't have a ship. Never mind. I'm going loopy just ignore me

Unless.... if Epi blocked him with another ship, could that supersede the whole thing??

Shit this may be more complicated than I realize

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:10 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:09 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:05 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:04 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:59 pm Some stuff that hits slightly different if he sometimes has immunity. Can’t decipher if he expected to be immune night one or night two.
I'm sorry, but I do not get the same analysis here as you do. It looks to me like he is just including himself in the PoE. I would also expected MacDougall to have claimed the shot.
If he had shot night 1?
Specifically, if he had shot Dragomir.
I agree with this as well.
Though if he took a shot and FG is telling the truth, it would have failed as Epi would have blocked it.

True true.

Wait.

I just realized something obvious.

FG also saw Ted and Drago target Mac N1, yes?

They don't have pirate ships.

So that further corroborates that Mac didn't use it N1.

That whole argument was stupid.

I mean, it's sort of due to the fact that you backed up the silly flavor thing. That's just silly.

Oh just that I confused your post for fg? Lol sorry. Reading quickly

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:55 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:53 am Sorry, FG's argument, not mikey's. Thought this quote was FG lol. Still
Even with the massive tonal gap... Impressive. I am just saying, I have not been able to fully understand a single darned role in this game after a single read.

I still do not know how Dragomir's role worked, because I only read it once.

I don't understand your point. What is the highlighted portion even referring to

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:09 am There, I know I am town, so the wolves can go ahead and hammer. They are not doing so, so I cannot help but be certain that Epignosis is mafia (and furthermore that funnygurl is not).

This is fun

I mean you're probably right. But still

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:53 am
nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:52 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:07 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 am well now we're getting into a tricky gray area, because this raises the question of whether or not there is anything in the language of your role card that implies this would be the case, but asking that feels unethical and I wouldn't want to do anything that could possibly break the game. All I will say is that Mac's role card indicates firmly that no one should be able to target him unless they also have a pirate ship and are using it at the same time as he is. There is no hint of exceptions in his role card. You've already told us you don't have a pirate ship.
It is super easy to justify flavorfully, and the role PMs have already shown to have unclear wording at times.
Your flavor argument about the eagle flying is complete and utter bullshit. Watching someone is targeting them. The wording about targeting is pretty damn clear.
i was the one w/ the "eagles can fly" argument though

Well Mikey seemed to think it made sense. I think you're both full of shit.

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:52 am
ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:07 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 am well now we're getting into a tricky gray area, because this raises the question of whether or not there is anything in the language of your role card that implies this would be the case, but asking that feels unethical and I wouldn't want to do anything that could possibly break the game. All I will say is that Mac's role card indicates firmly that no one should be able to target him unless they also have a pirate ship and are using it at the same time as he is. There is no hint of exceptions in his role card. You've already told us you don't have a pirate ship.
It is super easy to justify flavorfully, and the role PMs have already shown to have unclear wording at times.
Your flavor argument about the eagle flying is complete and utter bullshit. Watching someone is targeting them. The wording about targeting is pretty damn clear.

Sorry, FG's argument, not mikey's. Thought this quote was FG lol. Still

In fact, we know that "watching" counts as targeting since you saw Drago target Mac. Drago targeted him with a watch.

ts account wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:07 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:06 am well now we're getting into a tricky gray area, because this raises the question of whether or not there is anything in the language of your role card that implies this would be the case, but asking that feels unethical and I wouldn't want to do anything that could possibly break the game. All I will say is that Mac's role card indicates firmly that no one should be able to target him unless they also have a pirate ship and are using it at the same time as he is. There is no hint of exceptions in his role card. You've already told us you don't have a pirate ship.
It is super easy to justify flavorfully, and the role PMs have already shown to have unclear wording at times.

Your flavor argument about the eagle flying is complete and utter bullshit. Watching someone is targeting them. The wording about targeting is pretty damn clear.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:04 am
Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:03 am
ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:59 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:58 pm my analysis could just be wrong then. perhaps i couldn't have watched mac if he did use his power n1

but that just means he either used it n2 or holstered it. but i assumed eagles could find pirate ships 'cause eagles can fly over water
Sorry, what? I need you to rephrase this.
i think the best time to go on the pirate ship is n1, so you could potentially use it more times. sloonei's suspecting me because i think mac used it n1 but i also watched him n1. i kinda assumed that i could watch him anyways 'cause if he goes on a ship then while he's unreachable to regular ol' humans my eagle could fly and reach a pirate ship.

but if that's not the case then me successfully watching mac n1 means he didn't use it n1
okay I’ve had enough
Vote FG

it’s Epi FG Speed lock it in

I aint locking anything in

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:59 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:53 am For me, the Dragomir kill as opposed to a Sloonei/Mac kill makes tremendous sense to have been executed by exactly Sloonei and/or Mac. That he was killed over me, also makes me suspect that the kill was fired from someone/s whose bulk are inside my hypothesised town core, or at least quite comfortably nullish (perhaps a TonyStarkPrime).

I strongly feel like LC/Speedchuck combinations usually shoot me. Epignosis can go either way as I know he tends to let others make decisions about kills.

I spent a lot of this day 2 fucking around doing nothing and drew nearly no suspicion from anyone. I feel pocketed.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:04 am It's just that there is no world in which Sloonei is the right lynch. He is the town captain and his effort is incredible so far going far beyond anything he mustered in the GOC. And if he is town and we flip him it's almost game throwing. So if not him, then whom? Who makes a decision to shoot Dragomir that isn't Sloonei? Can a team that has Long Con and/or Speedchuck and/or Turnip Head in it choose to shoot him? I really don't think so. Then again perhaps this is all just wifom. But wifom is garbage reasoning. Turnip Head shoots Sloonei I feel. Speedchuck and LC shoot Mac? It might be galaxy brain but I almost want to townclear all three of them because of this. Unless TH and Sloonei are teammates? Actually I think they might be? They were both towncored by me.

I am wondering whether TS Account's game quality here has risen exactly because of his alignment (and contributing partners)? Or perhaps the same can be said for Funnygirl? But Funnygirl's schtick of begging Mikey to find her ... is that in range for any scum to play up to that degree? I ... don't think so.

Master Radishes is the one who can be scum in any combinations though. He has no reason to prefer to shoot me or Sloonei. Maybe that makes him town? He is hung out to dry?

I think TSP qualifies as someone who would not have shot Drago too tbh.

I think the team is Sloonei + Turnip Head + one of Mikey/Funnygirl ... probably Funnygirl?

If so I am shot tonight and they're going to win so I'm probs just gonna meme now.
Some stuff that hits slightly different if he sometimes has immunity. Can’t decipher if he expected to be immune night one or night two.

Interesting

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:58 pm my analysis could just be wrong then. perhaps i couldn't have watched mac if he did use his power n1

but that just means he either used it n2 or holstered it. but i assumed eagles could find pirate ships 'cause eagles can fly over water

lmao

Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:33 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:22 pm Master Radishes [4]: Funnygurl, Epi, Long Con, Turnip Head
Turnip Head [4]: MacDougall, Master Radishes, Sloonei, speedchuck
speedchuck [3]: tedxtr, ts account, TonyStarkPrime
speed's town now right? he was that last vote for turnip 8 min before eod

Eh, I'm not taking this as a clear, could always be a hard bus for cred or just a gamble he took hoping it would work out. Also, there's still a possibility that he knew TH would be safe due to some votecount-or-tie-affecting mechanic known only to the mafia. So I wouldn't totally clear him based on that. Especially if he knew this, he'd know Radish would be mislynched and he'd get to look like he was on the right side of history there. Maybe you're thinking exactly what he wanted you to think.

Did you attempt to ask further about the "limited" aspect? I feel like you shouldn't just be in the dark about how your role works.

I think that you are holding something back.

I kind of assume you shouldn't quote your role PM directly; consult Nanook first. Otherwise try to explain the gist of what it says without a direct quote, even if it doesn't make much sense to you.

This is so stupid. I'm going to make dinner.

You have answered that there is no ship, great. That's something. Give me more. What is confusing about how your role works?

Allow me to reiterate.

The more you simply deflect by saying you don't understand it, the more it looks like you are covering something up.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:41 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:40 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:39 pm I'm not trying to be confusing.
I think she is saying that you've expressed confusion over your role, and these questions could help bring clarity.
Can you link me to the questions then?

I just did a few posts above. Ffs pay attention.

I just want to know more details about your role. You just say it's confusing without giving any more information. We can help. What's confusing about it?

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:02 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:14 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:11 pm Epi's practically lolcatting.

I'm more concerned with his claim. Why fake it? Why even make it in the first place, especially to lie about it and risk it being countered?
lolcatting?

What does that even mean?
obv!scumming.
No. I'm a civilian who is getting fucked because I got a shitty role that doesn't make any sense and nobody believes it.
You haven't made any attempt to explain it further. Even if you don't understand it, it's legal for you to give us more information. You never even answered my question about Mac's role.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:54 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:50 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:48 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:47 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:44 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:32 pm [VOTE: Sloonei] aubergine
If Sloonei was roleblocked last night, with three kills, wouldn't that be a good mark on him?
I said I was a limited role blocker. Can't you read? I don't even understand my own role.
What do you understand about it? Are you suggesting that the limitation would explain Sloonei's ability going through as he claims?
My role made no sense to me. It's full of flair and fun talk, but nothing that actually tells me what it does. I asked about it and was told I was a "limited roleblocker." I left it at that. I don't know in what sense I'm limited.

If I'm mafia, do I claim that shit? Do I claim now?
is it anything like the "pirate ship" thing in Mac's role? That was something about preventing his target from targeting him. But calling that a limited roleblocker would be kind of a stretch imo.

Epi, please acknowledge these posts and answer the question and/or provide more details about your "confusing" role. The more you simply deflect by saying you don't understand it, the more it looks like you are covering something up.

Notably, Epi's character has the same surname as Mac's. I know nothing about the source material, but perhaps Epi also has a pirate ship.

I have asked him twice about that and he ignored me.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:33 pm
Funnygurl555 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:31 pm are we like absolutely sure there's 4 wolves?
My assumption is three.

Four originally, three remaining.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:02 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:01 pm Host/spec option can be used to unvote.
No TK can also be used for this, as it cannot be hammered.

Oh, good to know

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:06 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:01 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:00 pm "To say we're both right" is a stupid way of putting it. I just mean I targeted Mac and nothing happened. Funnygirl said she saw me target Mac. I'm not lying. Why would she be lying?
I thought you didn't target mac?
I didn't. I wrote that shit wrong.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:00 pm "To say we're both right" is a stupid way of putting it. I just mean I targeted Mac and nothing happened. Funnygirl said she saw me target Mac. I'm not lying. Why would she be lying?

Wait what?

You mean you did target mac and it didn't go through, probably because of his ship?
That's not what you said before.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:58 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:49 pm Every single player has appeared today. The only one not present recently is Tony. If the mafia are in a position right now where they can hammer Epignosis with a quick spurt of votes (if one or neither of Sloonei and Long Con are mafia), then the only thing preventing that right this moment would have to be a mafia Tony.
mafia Tony is reliable

Lol

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:46 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:45 pm This brings up the potential to poke another hole in funnygurl's claim: she claims to have caught Epi targeting Mac night 1, but she also pads that claim with two other players who are accused of targeting Mac: ted and drago. Both of them are dead and unable to confirm/deny that claim. It immediately becomes Epi's word versus hers, and Epi is Public Enemy #1 before any of this begins. It would be a convoluted play, but not an inconceivable one.
I'm considering it, because the mafia only need one more mislynch.

Would be a pretty elaborate fakeclaim if so, but I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:14 pm @JaggedJimmyJay @nutella who is your second strongest town read after me?

Oof that's actually really hard. I'd say FG solely based on the claim business (plus I guess her interaction with mikey afterward), though I wouldn't have named her as a top town read before that. I think everyone else has a fairly decent chance of being mafia. Tony being perhaps the one I have the least direct opinion about -- maybe I should look into him as I recall a pretty decent town case for him from either you or Jay

Pretty funny if Epi and FG are both town and there was just some mechanical fuckery. I do actually want to believe that Epi is telling the truth about not targeting anyone N1. Who knows what's up with that.

Long Con wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:42 pm Looked like fun to do a hammer. I didn't hammer, I just put it within range.

Idk man, kinda looked like a slip to me. But only if Epi's town which I have to chew on more.

The scum team could be LC/Speed/Tony or LC/Speed/Mikey. I'd believe that. Or LC/Tony/Mikey I guess is possible as well.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:06 pm
ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:20 pm Oh, judging by vote count, if Epignosis is town, then Long Con and Sloonei both need to be mafia, otherwise mafia would just hammer and win. So Epignosis is definitely outed wolf.
Never mind my question about this, I get it now. That's assuming the last mafia was in the thread at the time. The last mafia could easily have been afk (speedchuck perhaps)

or rather, assuming Sloonei is town as I do, there were two mafia afk... hmm. tony also?

This is a stretch lol. Epi prob just scum anyway.

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:20 pm Oh, judging by vote count, if Epignosis is town, then Long Con and Sloonei both need to be mafia, otherwise mafia would just hammer and win. So Epignosis is definitely outed wolf.

Never mind my question about this, I get it now. That's assuming the last mafia was in the thread at the time. The last mafia could easily have been afk (speedchuck perhaps)

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:24 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:22 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:14 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:11 pm Epi's practically lolcatting.

I'm more concerned with his claim. Why fake it? Why even make it in the first place, especially to lie about it and risk it being countered?
lolcatting?

What does that even mean?
obv!scumming.
No. I'm a civilian who is getting fucked because I got a shitty role that doesn't make any sense and nobody believes it.
Why claim it in the first place? Why is your role towny rather than scummy? Why are your target(s) towny rather than scummy?
I said this already.

I'm not going back and quoting it.

I am a civilian because my role says I am.

I don't understand the fourth question. I had one target. I talked about Sloonei Day 2.

You didn't answer the first question. Why was your reaction to seeing you had votes to hastily claim without even reading?

ts account wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:20 pm Oh, judging by vote count, if Epignosis is town, then Long Con and Sloonei both need to be mafia, otherwise mafia would just hammer and win. So Epignosis is definitely outed wolf.

Huh? Explain

Sloonei is lock town for me at this point so clarify this point for me

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:19 pm I readily grant that LC’s failed hammer vote rubbed me wrong.

Yeeeeaaaah actually that might make me think LC's scum and Epi's not??

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:14 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:12 pm
speedchuck wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:11 pm Epi's practically lolcatting.

I'm more concerned with his claim. Why fake it? Why even make it in the first place, especially to lie about it and risk it being countered?
lolcatting?

What does that even mean?
obv!scumming.
No. I'm a civilian who is getting fucked because I got a shitty role that doesn't make any sense and nobody believes it.

You haven't made any attempt to explain it further. Even if you don't understand it, it's legal for you to give us more information. You never even answered my question about Mac's role.

Search found 207 matches