The Syndicate

*Placing vote on DrWilgy*

Honestly I'm down with trying to lynch DrWilgy again. There's something really fishy going on with him.

But votes are still changeable, yes? Why don't you just place it now since you're so confident, and change it later if you see fit?

Huh, interesting night. Bye JJJ.

And once again all positions have drawbacks but I am feeling 3 tonight.

What the hell??? Shenanigans... this doesn't help me feel any better about DrWilgy.

DrWilgy seems to be using the defense of "why wouldn't I have defended Bubbles earlier" which sounds to me like the obvious set-up defense in the case that Bubbles was only recently recruited. There's a lot of WIFOMy stuff going on with regards to his defense of Bubbles but now that I'm actually looking at his posts I think it's enough for me to *vote DrWilgy*

Huh I'm not really feeling any of these cases super strongly over each other. I'm pretty equally ambivalent about DrWilgy, SVS, and Llama. Someone convince me in the next 20 minutes

Rico, life has gotten super busy for me (first week of my senior year and I have a zillion things to do oh boy) so I've been investing much less time/attention into this game than I was earlier. I'm still trying to assess suspicions as best I can but I'm not devoting a ton of effort to it right now. I'm moderately suspicious of a ton of people and I'm trying to figure out where my vote should go. Unfortunately I won't be back until the last couple hours of the poll so I won't be here for a lot of discussion.

WB Rico.

A few more names/cases have been brought up and I'm feeling kinda overwhelmed again. I'm honestly open to lynching almost anyone at this point -- I can't say that I particularly trust anyone completely, and the numbers of the recruited are creeping up. Again I would really like to see more participation from Rey, as well as Sorsha, Devin, Bass 2.0, etc. The recent findings on Llama are quite compelling, I could totally see that behavior as indicative of teammatery. Would certainly be a rather daring attitude for him to put on so blatantly in those comments after the lynch, but I wouldn't put it past him.

Well I am not a great fool, so I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of you. But surely you would have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me!

Btw Westley didn't actually poison both cups. Clearly Vizzini was poisoned when he smelled the vial.

aapje wrote: Based on the writing it sounds like the Pyromancer could very well be on team Azura. First the lynch that hinted at immolation and now him having taught the Pyromancer.

I'm pretty sure LC said he wouldn't reveal stuff like that in the flavor text. I don't think we can assume anything from that.

I'm trying to reason through DH's confidence about SVS. It's possible that he had a check and actually has some information about her alignment. It's also possible he's been Hungered and is being forced to go hard against her. He's been so adamant and stubborn about it that I could see this being the case. Or he could genuinely just really strongly suspect her.

I'm still suspicious of Rey and want to hear more from him today.

Other than that I'm kinda lost for this lynch. I'd like to find Bubbles' teammates but I haven't the first clue how.

hmmm. Bye Rico, DP, and Dom.

Hosts: You said Day would be 24 hours but the poll is 48.

Also SVS why tf did you "hold your vote" they are changeable

Oh nvm I get your meaning. And shit I forgot 1 is when Ubzarf gets immunity. Damn. Why aren't the night polls changeable

sorry, what?

also, voting position 1 I guess.

Wooo awesome result!! Hope we can find her teammates as well.

Sorry I didn't participate in today's discussion much, I've been really busy with the first week of classes and stuff. I've been reading along and trying to absorb/assess the various cases that have been brought up. I guess you could say I have to think more.

Turnip Head wrote:
nutella wrote:I'm not really following the Rico/Lorab ping-pong match. They've had this same back-and-forth going just between the two of them for a couple days now but it appears that everyone else is pretty much ignoring it I'm going to stay out of it until further notice/unless something sways me to one side or the other.
is there a correlation between everyone else staying out of it and you staying out of it?

I mean, probably, yeah

Since nobody else has reacted, they seem like they're off in a corner separate from the rest of the thread and I have nothing else to connect them to and I have no urge to side with either one over the other. I'm unclear on their reasons for suspecting each other and I think they could both be neutral. If someone wants to engage with them or defend one side over the other, go ahead, I'd be interested to see where that leads. But since nobody else seems to be invested in that interaction, I'm not really getting anything out of it and find it to be tangential to the main discussion -- and not in a way that I think they're trying to actively derail the thread, just that the two of them are kind of stuck responding to each other and not engaging with other topics much.

I'm not really following the Rico/Lorab ping-pong match. They've had this same back-and-forth going just between the two of them for a couple days now but it appears that everyone else is pretty much ignoring it

I'm going to stay out of it until further notice/unless something sways me to one side or the other.

I'm pretty comfortable with a Bubbles vote today. I was hesitant at first because of her meta/history of being lynched as a civ, but the lynch switch would fit with being on a baddie team (both Ubzargan's and Azura's Position 2 abilities could have caused the result) -- there are other possible explanations for sure, but combining that reason with her unsatisfactory posts, I'm inclined to think she's likely bad. Placing my vote on Bubbles.

I'd also be down to lynch DP or Devin. And I'm still suspicious of DH, but he said he had a big case brewing and I am VERY much looking forward to seeing that.

Welp, bye MP

Gah I'm still torn. It seems like a good idea to complete the cycle rather than deal with the consequences for prematurely repeating a position, but position 4 is quite scary. Then again all the positions have unfortunate consequences. 1 has that early day-end, "mind control", and a seemer, among other things. 5 has force votes, immolation, "power corruption", punisher... All in all I'm starting to think that all the positions are pretty fairly balanced and it's kind of not fair to the hosts if we don't give them all an opportunity in good time. I'm certainly still concerned about the poison, but I'm also concerned about unknown consequences. Going with position 4 for now.

Alright, I concede that you've gotten a bit better today, at least at responding to questions. You still never explained your vote for me, though you alluded to thinking JJJ had picked up on it and that made me wonder if it was a force-vote that you couldn't explain or something, idk. If not I'd still like an explanation. Then you did basically the same thing to MP and only really explained yourself after he prodded, but at least you have explained yourself a little better and have started making serious posts again.

Oh okay I just saw that Master of Shadows is a role with the position 2 ability to post in the thread as his role. That makes total sense then. Never mind my crazy conspiracy theories

Wow, that was quite a catch-up. First of all, what the heckie? Unfurl got lynched?

Strange and unfortunate, and sorry to see you go unfurl. But @Bubbles I'm sure it wasn't a mistake, this game has lots of different abilities that can screw up lynch results. Consider yourself lucky.
WB Bass 2.0.
And uhh welcome to the game MasterOfShadows??? Idk what's going on with that. I've played games with creepy extra accounts like that before and they always skeeve me out. There's probably some secret forum shit going down or something.

MP has blown up again, what else is new. I don't really see it as suspicious, that's kind of just what he does and he's been particularly stressed so I'm not surprised, and honestly I agree with most of his thoughts on MM and Devin anyway. MM has been incredibly annoying, as has DH for very similar reasons.

Dom wrote: nutella, do you still qualify DH's reaction to Scotty as a NO U?

Yes. And I'm not really sure how you interpreted it otherwise, but okay.

thellama73 wrote:I didn't see a response from nutella on this. I would like one.

thellama73 wrote:
nutella wrote: I am not on a team with Scotty. I cannot vouch for him. I have agreed with a lot of his posts in the game but I have no reason to defend him in terms of alignment.
Who are you on a team with?

I am unrecruited.

I think that's all I particularly wanted to respond to for now, let me know if I missed anything.

Hrmmmm I really wish I knew what these "minor consequences" might entail. Part of me says we should just get Position 4 over with, but part of me says we should really keep delaying the poison. I'm leaning toward pos 1 atm.

Ugh probably won't be back before EOD and I'm pretty uncomfortable with the lynch being between Bubbles and Sorsha. My vote is staying on DH.

MovingPictures07 wrote: nutella, thanks for the list! How much more strongly do you feel about DH and rey than those in the category above?

Not much. My views on lots of players are waffling tbh. I would say that DH and Rey are probably my strongest suspects though. And I'm becoming more interested in players like Tranq, Devin, and aapje who have been blendy/not contributing much/jumping on bandwagons.

I agree with you that Devin's and Tranq's votes for Sorsha are the pingiest and I generally do not like how quickly that bandwagon caught on. I'm glad JJJ shared an alternate perspective on her as I didn't really understand most of the points against her and have found it all very fishy. Part of me wonders if Bubbles has baddie teammates that tagged onto the Sorsha wagon, and part of me wonders if the Bubbles wagon is similarly manufactured (perhaps, going down the chain, as a reaction to Boomslang votes, though I suspect him less now).

@Dom: Fair enough, I just thought it was weird that you merely said "I need to think more" instead of a particular reaction to Golden's flip and the night-skip. I'm not trying to say that you haven't contributed, I'm just curious what more of your thoughts and reactions have been.

Roxy wrote: 2.) I hope BR and LC do not take offense to this as I hope other players don't as well but do I really think BR would put Boomslang as a recruiter? No I don't. Even if they random'ed the roles I believe there was more than one or two tweaks. I do it in games I host.

That's bullshit and you know it. They randomized the roles. If that's the way you've done it you should feel bad, it's cliquey and disrespectful to assume that certain players can't handle certain roles. And you called ME cliquey. :\

Dom -- maybe you don't quite have the same idea as what I mean by stream of consciousness post. I obviously don't expect everyone to come in here and ramble endlessly on everything, but I am firmly of the belief that you should say what is on your mind regarding what's going on in the thread/at least in response to a few things. When I catch up I grab posts along the way that I want to quote and respond to (btw this site REALLY needs a multiquote button I am tired of opening tabs and pasting) and make mental notes of whatever else I want to add my thoughts on, and when I write my post I just write off the top of my head and often my ideas evolve within a paragraph. That is what I consider a stream of consciousness style of posting -- posting openly what is on your mind and not being afraid to share your initial thoughts and reactions to stuff. And when something significant like a lynch reveal happens, I always at least acknowledge it. Both you and Rey refused to even comment on Golden's flip, and I am curious why you both were so hesitant to share your kneejerk reactions. If you're not guilty you should not be afraid to speak your mind and openly discuss your honest opinions.

OK, I'll try, but a lot of these are kind of arbitrary. I'm honestly just going to c/p from yours and switch around a bunch of names.

Also just to be clear the green end includes people I think are more likely to just be unrecruited (such as myself), rather than specifically civ.

nutella

S~V~S
Scotty
Canucklehead

JaggedJimmyJay
MovingPictures07
birdwithteeth11
bea

Bullzeye
Roxy
unfurl
DrWilgy
Ricochet

Turnip Head
Russtifinko / Synonym
Spacedaisy
timmer

thellama73
Tranq
DisgruntledPorcupine
DFaraday
aapje
Devin the Omniscient

LoRab
Metalmarsh89
Sorsha
Boomslang
TinyBubbles
Dom

DharmaHelper
reywaS

Meh, this didn't feel like a very helpful exercise, a lot of this is uncertain and subject to change. I had reconsidered Rey's likelihood of baddieness and rescinded my suspicion of him by the end of the previous day, but now I have put him back at the bottom for that recent post of his about not posting after Golden's lynch because that pinged me six ways to sunday.

I find myself roughly concurring with the majority of MP's rainbow reads (biggest discrepancy is unfurl, and the strength of the baddie reads is a bit different). I like your thoughts on Sorsha, but I could also easily see her as an unrecruited.

I don't really know what to think of Dom. I don't like that his only reaction to the lynch + lack of night was "I need to think more" and then he disappeared. What kind of remark is that, anyway? Afraid to go for a stream-of-consciousness post? And you too Rey, why were you so hesitant to publicly react to Golden's flip?

Welcome Synonym! This game follows a very different format from most other games and has quite a few new mechanics so don't feel bad if it's overwhelming. And yes, votes are changeable in this game's polls (though traditionally they aren't in most games).

Btw, I totally forgot Tranq was playing. He hasn't posted since Night 2. Tranq where are you?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
nutella wrote:linki @ JJJ: I think the problem that you are not quite articulating to him is that he's going from "Golden strongly believes Epi is bad" to "Golden knows for certain that Epi is bad." But I also think this logic argument is kind of a useless tangent.
Do you disagree with me when I assert that Boomslang may have been manufacturing a fake reason to cast suspicion on Golden and made a mistake? That's what I'm trying to convey here.

I don't necessarily see his reasoning as invalid or manufactured just because it isn't completely logically sound. He was using certain assumptions and I think it actually makes a fair amount of sense.

DharmaHelper wrote:
nutella wrote:When did I ever defend him?
You leapt immediately after me once I decided to go after him.

Yes, I went after you because of your reasoning. That was about you and your actions. I found your No U suspicious, not because of any idea about Scotty's alignment but because it was a shitty reason to go after him and what looked to me like a baddie move. Give me a valid, substantial reason to suspect Scotty and I'll consider it fairly. I was not defending him, I was criticizing your reasoning and finding your vote in and of itself suspicious.

When did I ever defend him?

DharmaHelper wrote:
nutella wrote:I am feeling better about Boomslang with his last two posts, and for now Scotty's ISO is enough for me to move my vote to DharmaHelper.

linki: Especially since he's not responding productively.
Is the reason you're suddenly up my ass is because I attacked your teammate? Because if so, You both should know I planned on moving my vote but now I won't.

I am not on a team with Scotty. I cannot vouch for him. I have agreed with a lot of his posts in the game but I have no reason to defend him in terms of alignment.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
aapje wrote:What does ISO stand for?
"Isolation"

It refers to reviewing a player's posts in isolation -- their post history and nothing but.

BTW, happy birthday Black Rock.

I didn't actually know this, lol. I was familiar with its use as an acronym for "In Search Of" and I thought that use kiiind of made sense in this context since you're looking at the search results for a player's posts, but I was never clear on why this term is used and this makes more sense. Silly me.

linki @ JJJ: I think the problem that you are not quite articulating to him is that he's going from "Golden strongly believes Epi is bad" to "Golden knows for certain that Epi is bad." But I also think this logic argument is kind of a useless tangent.

I am feeling better about Boomslang with his last two posts, and for now Scotty's ISO is enough for me to move my vote to DharmaHelper.

linki: Especially since he's not responding productively.

Roxy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Roxy wrote:I personally feel boomslang is yet a Neutral. I think JJJ made his points - sure - but imo he is just going for another easy lynch.
This would imply that you found at least one of my points to be inadequate. Please show me. I've tried my best to assess players and come up with reads. If I wanted an "easy" lynch I would have just joined the anti-Golden crusade.
Where did I imply that?
Oh thats right I didn't. You are trying to put something into my post that simply is not there and making my post have a different inflection.

I just think Boomslang would make a horrible recruit. (No offense Boomslang I said the same thing about my own son).
He has not really been in the thread.
You can tell he is not keeping up by looking at his posts.
If he is not around to read or post properly what makes you so sure he has had time to try for a recruitment?

I think you, however, would make an excellent recruit.
you are paying attention to the thread.
You are playing the game and fully reading and posting.
You are under no suspicion but from me.
You have been around to eneter contests for recruitmen
You a good player so you know how to play the same once recruited.
You are pushing neutral easy lynch after lynch.

I actually agree with most of this post, with two caveats:
1) It is equally likely that JJJ has been recruited as a civvie.
2) Why are you discounting the possibility that Boomslang started out as a baddie, as one of the leaders?

DH: I think he made a mistake, was corrected, and said he would look into you for other reasons. He didn't even explicitly state that he was still suspicious of you for the same reason. He said he would look into you and you overreacted.

You did not give any reason to think Scotty was suspicious. You only criticized him for suspecting you. That is a no u.

DharmaHelper wrote:
nutella wrote:DH, you seem to refuse to take ANYTHING seriously. Why won't you respond to the people bringing up your name, and why have you not contributed a single original thought or any kind of substantial discussion for the entire game?
Who has brought me up that I haven't responded to?

Me, llama, certainly others, your name came up a few times during the last day I believe. Nice No U on Scotty btw. Who do you really suspect and why?

I see your behavior in this game as similar to (though maybe not quite to same extreme as) MM's. Speaking of which, MM owes me a few explanations. He's refused to contribute AT ALL to any thread discussions. MM, please give us something to work with here.

DH, you seem to refuse to take ANYTHING seriously. Why won't you respond to the people bringing up your name, and why have you not contributed a single original thought or any kind of substantial discussion for the entire game?

Happy birthday to our lovely ladies BR and Bea!!

Canucklehead wrote:@Boomslang voters: Does JJJ's ISO case adequately cover all the reasons why you chose to vote for Boom? Or are there other points you want to add?

I explained my reasonings in this post:

nutella wrote:alright, I'm back. Took a few breaks from catching up to do other stuff, and I also had a brief bit of internet trouble, but all is well now.

I am going to switch my vote to Boomslang. I know it's an easy bandwagon to hop on, but I'm not really quite feeling it with Rey -- I do not like the way he is playing at all, but I'm less convinced that it actually makes him bad. I could still see it but I'm much more skeptical that he would act this way if he really were the guilty party. And I definitely see potential baddie in Boomslang. He's been pretty under the radar and as JJJ has shown a lot of his posts have been pretty easy contributions. Particularly this post by JJJ gives some good examples of why Boomslang looks like a baddie trying to blend in. But the real nail in the coffin was when this happened:
Boomslang wrote:Let's try voting for myself! Seems to give you a get-out-of-jail free card these days!
Because, I mean, seriously?

And idk what's happening with MP, but my best guess is that his vote has been forced or he's cursed in some way. Looking at just the Position 5 powers and Position 3 powers (in case it's a day power) I don't see anything that could be a posting curse except maybe the Keeper of Order -- "punisher" -- so it could be that and/or Azura's force-vote thing. He is acting pretty damn crazy.

So, yes, I agreed with JJJ's reasonings about Boomslang's "easy" and largely unoriginal contributions, and that he's been generally blendy. His self-vote post raised my ping off the charts. And then he switched his vote to Golden when he saw how close the votes were (when the self-vote turned out to not be, in fact, a get-out-of-jail-free card.) -- to be fair I guess anyone would try to save themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's also a baddie teammate of his among the later few Golden votes.

He has still not responded to JJJ's or my suspicion and has basically not defended himself at all. I think he is likely to be a baddie who's been trying to blend in all game and once he started getting some attention he tried to act all cool and aloof instead of responding adequately.

I will consider MP's insight though, since I really don't know Boomslang. I could possibly be convinced that he's neutral, but my vote is staying on him for now as he is my strongest suspicion. I may switch to Bubbles if she continues her pattern of not responding to accusations about her and not really contributing much otherwise. At this point I would like to hear more from both of them. Also DH -- he's contributed zilch.

Linki @ Roxy -- have you explained your suspicion of me? Is it just leftover from the bass lynch discussion? And, care to explain why you suspect JJJ as well?

Whoa, thread lock and then no night.

Disappointed in the lynch result. I think we could have caught a baddie in Boomslang, but the Golden wagon persisted.

*registers vote for Boomslang* Let's hit the ground running on this brand new Day.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wait I just now noticed DrWilgy changed his avatar to a sock. *head explodes*

Yeah I kept thinking he was MP and getting really confused.

alright, I'm back. Took a few breaks from catching up to do other stuff, and I also had a brief bit of internet trouble, but all is well now.

I am going to switch my vote to Boomslang. I know it's an easy bandwagon to hop on, but I'm not really quite feeling it with Rey -- I do not like the way he is playing at all, but I'm less convinced that it actually makes him bad. I could still see it but I'm much more skeptical that he would act this way if he really were the guilty party. And I definitely see potential baddie in Boomslang. He's been pretty under the radar and as JJJ has shown a lot of his posts have been pretty easy contributions. Particularly this post by JJJ gives some good examples of why Boomslang looks like a baddie trying to blend in. But the real nail in the coffin was when this happened:

Boomslang wrote:Let's try voting for myself! Seems to give you a get-out-of-jail free card these days!

Because, I mean, seriously?

And idk what's happening with MP, but my best guess is that his vote has been forced or he's cursed in some way. Looking at just the Position 5 powers and Position 3 powers (in case it's a day power) I don't see anything that could be a posting curse except maybe the Keeper of Order -- "punisher" -- so it could be that and/or Azura's force-vote thing. He is acting pretty damn crazy.

OK I usually do not like to post without catching up but I'm posting to say that I've cast my revote for Reywas, but I have a ton of pages to read and I see lots of votes for Boomslang so we'll see if I'm swayed to that wagon.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think rey might deliberately be clashing against Golden's appeal to emotion with an appeal to emotion of his own. Sorry if I'm wrong about that.

I agree with this. Rey has not impressed me.

Since my vote was registered for him in the first poll I assume I should vote in the "parking spot" so it doesn't get counted twice? BR is that the idea?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Spacedaisy wrote:I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, but I'm open to hearing input from people who have played more with unfurl than I have. I would prefer to get a baddie than a neutral personally. They aren't bad lynches but they aren't good ones either.
I have played with unfurl exactly zero times, but I think that might give me a uniquely advantageous perspective (of course people who have played with her often should comment too). I don't have to be concerned with meta when I read her and content can be assessed intuitively at face value. Here's what I see: unfurl is the current best example of the low-hanging fruit in this game, in my opinion. By that I mean she is one of the players that the baddie-aligned teams are counting on as a lynch, and certainly not one they are counting on as a team mate.

That's really the whole matter, isn't it? For all the things you've identified that bother you about unfurl, you're still reduced to those two questions:

1.) Was unfurl recruited by a baddie team?

2.) Is unfurl a baddie recruiter?

If I take her content at face value, my intuition tells me that the answer to #1 is a resounding NO. Unfurl's style was met with criticism quite early in this game, and she has always been at least a backburner suspect for a number of players. Baddie recruiters are certainly paying attention to that, and they're not going to take someone on with a lot of baggage. Of course we can play WIFOM and wonder aloud "well maybe that's what they want us to think!", but I don't think that's logical.

Would you agree with that assessment, Spacedaisy? If not, please state your own thought process.

If you do agree, or at least you see my point as valid, then you're left with #2. Is unfurl one of the two baddie recruiters? Maybe. I think her post history is at least compatible with what I would expect from some baddies in more typical setups. I wouldn't say it screams recruiter at me though, because one key characteristic is preventing me from confidently viewing her as suspicious. Her posts have been so extremely detached -- you and MP astutely observed as much when you noted how little she seemed to want to talk about -- that I am brought to wonder whether a recruiter agenda is actually present at all. Is this how most recruiters would behave? Would they really be so hesitant to even try to make a meaningful dent in even one relevant discussion? Such avoidance is equivalent to the total absence of manipulation, misdirection, or even an effort to obscure oneself.

I agree entirely with this post. Besides the point about recruitments that weren't hand-picked, but there have only been two of those that we know of and they were both particular types of contests so depending on what you know about a player you could potentially assess whether you think it's likely that Unfurl, for example, would have entered/been picked. It would be highly speculative, yes, but I still think there's a pretty low chance she's been recruited, since there haven't been many recruitments yet anyway.

I am fine with the plan to restart the poll. However if some people who have already voted revote in the new poll and some don't, the hosts will have to do careful counting so as not to miss or duplicate votes (and we would probably want to keep track of the actual tallies in the thread). I think it's best if everyone revotes in the second poll, but refer to the first poll for correct ordering and in case anyone misses the revote.

I'm going to change my vote to reywas because I'm okay with aapje's response and because I think Rey could have killed Epi. And I don't really want Golden to be lynched. I didn't like Lorab's reasoning either, though I'm not necessarily suspicious of her for it. I agree that Golden has been a distraction but I think we can move past that now and if we do he can be a huge asset to the civvie cause. Even without G-Man's ass-et.

The Purple Woman is not patronizing

Condescending, maybe

But your point basically still stands -- I don't doubt that a team could simultaneously or near-simultaneously use a rez and a recruitment separately on the same person.

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