The Syndicate

The clear MVP. Congrats FZ!

That was pretty suspect.

Marmot wrote:
Long Con wrote:Shoot, I was supposed to copy that list over to here and post this post after updating it. Anyway, here you go:

So I went through JJJ's posts with the idea that I'm reading a baddie. I don't know how useful it was, because now I feel like he's bad. It was easy to see the baddie reasons for certain posts, I guess. I don't know if it's valid or not, but here's my updated rainbow list:

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.
This rainbow looks better LC. At least you don't have me listed red on this one.

Damn, that is a sweet list.

Sorry about that redness dude. Why did I suspect you?

FZ. wrote:Oh wow, we won?? Well done guys!

This was one of my worst games as mafia. I was so bummed getting the pm saying I was mafia, and I knew it would be really hard for me coming from a long break (after getting NK very early last game). I felt bad for JJJ and Dizzy for screwing it up for them. I'm glad the cop claim gamble worked out. I worked hard to make sure I can back it up in the thread, but I don't think anyone actually bothered to check...

You all should have really lynched me on that first day. I deserved it. The only one who gets off for not doing it is Epi who might have PTSD when it comes to lynching me, because of that one infamous game which he wrongfully pushed for my lynch.

I think LC played an amazing game. I wanted to kill him every night. I think he disguised his cop role very cleverly, and it took us time to realise it was him. I think your only mistake LC, was when I faked claim, you should have outed yourself at that point. First of all, if you're going to get lynched, better take a baddie down and then die. By that time we knew you were the cop, so there was no point in hiding it. That lynch was the turning point for us, but like my partners said, it could have gone either way at any point in the game. I think both JJJ and I were on the chopping board way too often, especially me. And that Luke mistake almost cost us the game.
When it comes down to it, I think the civvies saw through all of us, but just made some really bad decisions at EOD.

JJJ and Dizzy, thanks for not giving up on me. It was fun planning and plotting with you. While I hate being mafia, I got lucky with my team And thanks for winning the game for us!

Floyd, thank you for hosting the game. It's great that you took on the challenge of hosting, and I think you did great. I still haven't been able to do it.

Yeah, I had you pegged from the get-go... although I used my day 0 peek on Epi for his strange start, I checked you on Night 1 because I thought you were bad. I was happy to let you keep living because I figured my continued pressure on you would make it too risky to nightkill me.

People were Civ-reading me WAY too much from the start, and I made a decision to start acting sketchy in order to protect me from "he's so Civ" syndrome. "MP is bad k" and stuff like that were me trying to camouflage.

IT was working great, but I just didn't see the fakeclaim coming, and I didn't react right... although I think my reaction, and what WOULD have been subsequent discussions, might have pulled it through for the Civs if there had been a higher level of presence at the time.

nutella wrote:I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??

Congrats guys.

It was a good game. FZ pulled off a masterfully-timed fake cop claim and got me, the cop, lynched. Makes me want to play another game just like this, armed with the experience of this fakeclaim. Completely blindsided me!

Epignosis wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?
1. Because you did.

2. I said she was lying
I shouldn't bother with these types of games then.

Whaa, no, I thought it was AWESOME! Mostly because I thought you believed in me, and were throwing yourself in the path of the bullet.

I am of the opinion that the game was all but lost on that lynch because of an unfortunately apathetic night on the Civ front. People just weren't there to get convinced that FZ was lying.

Epignosis wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?

1. Because you did.

2. I said she was lying

Dizzy might have still gone on to win, but damn yo, JJJ!

Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.

insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.

Dyslexicon wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Dyslexicon wrote:I don't understand how we are not lynching either FZ or Epi here! Obviously one of them is lying.
Just go JJJ then please.
I did.

LOL didn't matter. I went back to FZ.

I hope you all learn a lesson.

Or FZ. Doesn't matter./ I would have checked JJJ or Marmot tonight.

Great timing, FZ!

Dyslexicon wrote:I don't understand how we are not lynching either FZ or Epi here! Obviously one of them is lying.

Just go JJJ then please.

Dammit, two minutes left.

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
insertnamehere
Dyslexicon
JaggedJimmyJay
Marmot
FZ.

insertnamehere wrote:Going with the option that provides the least leaps of logic.

Occam's razor, don't fail me now.

No no no no no no. FZ was about to be lynched, so she is fakeclaiming. There are no leaps of logic here.

I really hope speedchuck and Marmot come back. And where's Eloh, Ep? Will she be joining us or what?

Dyslexicon wrote:Wait, what is happening? Why are we moving from FZ? We have two cop claims, surely we should lynch one of those? O.o

I agree that FZ is eminently lynchable. She is 100% definitely bad, because I am not.

If Epi red-peeked JJJ though, then either of them are a fine option for me.

Ok, I will happily vote JJJ.

Half an hour left in this lynch.

Marmot wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Marmot wrote:I'm voting Long Con. There's really no other option here.
Seriously, don't. You will be her fool.
Unless someone counterclaims, there's no reason not to believe FZ.

So all a baddy has to do to get the cop to reveal themselves is to fake claim? That's policy?

Marmot wrote:I'm voting Long Con. There's really no other option here.

Seriously, don't. You will be her fool.

FZ. wrote:...no doubt, LC will try to manipulate you now into believing I am lying...

Masterful.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Marmot wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Talk to me about that FZ. read if you don't mind.
Apparently you wanted a list of civilians, right? I agree with the reasoning for that, to let the cop get his reads out there with some cover.

Furthermore, I agree with what FZ had to say about your question. Maybe she was pretty aggressive in her pursuit, but I don't think such worry is misguided.
Well, it didn't even have to be a list of civilians from everyone, I just was trying to plan whether folks wanted to specifically discuss peeks or not; seeing as though there's no consensus, then yeah, I want to know what everyone's reads are, especially town reads.

Townies lose games when they withhold information from each other, especially in this kind of setup.

JJJ, even with MP specifically seeking peek-cover compatriots, you would expect to see a peek reveal that was somewhat obvious? In this post, he seems like he wants to, at least.

I belabor the point only because I feel like it's a weak-ass reason to supposedly rule someone out from being the cop, just because you didn't notice a peek from him. Sounds made up.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Spoiler: show
speedchuck wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:JaggedJimmyJomps has been hacked by Vomps!

What a twiiiiiiiist!!!

Mafia, plz don't kill me early. I had to move away from my Wilgette and need this to keep my mind busy.

(and I'm still most definitely a doctor... just a zonked one...

So, who is bad?
Elohcin wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I also like the way LC handled all of that conversation, looking into it more intently.

I'd say I have two town reads already then. Cool.
What about me? What about me?
I can't fully explain the gut feel, but these two posts gave me bad vibes. Wilgy addressing the mafia sounded suuper fake, which may have been the point, but my gut doesn't like it.
I also just get the willies anytime someone begs for an early read from a trusted towny, probably even more so when it's masked by jest.

These two posts seem jokey, of course, but I get a non-genuine feel from them. And on D1, that's enough to shove someone to the bottom of the heap.
speedchuck is now a town read.

JaggedJimmyJay, how did you know this wasn't his Day 0 peek?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con, tell me why MP was an obvious night kill choice.
Civ leadership role, little to no suspicion, lots of cop talk.
I think he was a poor kill choice. He was the most vocal about cop cover and did not leave a readily-discernible free peek that I can see on Day 1. You suggested earlier that you thought he might be the cop yourself. Why did you think so?

Maybe there was no free peek?

I just looked at the kill choice and said "Why did they kill MP? I guess they thought he was the cop, trying to hide out in the open. I guess they saw him as a threat and it's easy to see why/"

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con, tell me why MP was an obvious night kill choice.

Civ leadership role, little to no suspicion, lots of cop talk.

I think he and FZ are bad together, and he knows FZ is going down, so he has been sprinkling in the FZ suspicion for a little while, and now he's ramping up the offensive to try to implicate me, conspicuously after I have declared my suspicion of him. FZ gets lynched, is bad, and then he has already set up a push in my direction.

Epignosis wrote:LC, I have asserted that you and 3J are bad together. You have nothing to say to that charge?

Well, I deny the accusation. Happy to lynch him. You really think that?

well, quiet in here, but as long as JJJ is voting for FZ., I'll place my vote there as well. This is a lynch I am on board with. I could easily switch my vote to JJJ. Marmot's INH vote is also one that I am fine with, but unless FZ and JJJ are off the table, I won't be going there.

Epignosis wrote:
Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
He promoted a speedchuck lynch and voiced his willingness to give FZ more time per her request when she was away. I don't understand this, after he'd spend a large portion of his effort in this game prior casing her, debating with her, and calling her his top suspect. She asked for time and it was granted.
We lynched S~V~S on Day 1 in Blue vs Red recently, while she was completely not there, and while we had an outed baddie in the thread. I had negative emotions about that, so this time, I'm Joe Cool about allowing time.
How do you have outed mafia in the thread Day 1?

Oh yeah, Day 2 I mean. Dude, you were there.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con ISO

His response to the initial statement of suspicion received from Epignosis. #3 reads a little bogus. "unusual stuff" / "trying too hard" -- easy assertions to make which don't really mean much of anything.

Yeah, and as it turned out, they didn't end up meaning much. Just reactionary stuff.

I think his initial concerns about FZ were generally valid.

Still one of my top choices for the vote, if anyone's interested.

This response to speedchuck strikes me as rather obvious and pointless.

I think he felt the same way, because I don't think he responded.

Gross ellipsis abuse.

Guilty as charged. I think maybe that post was written in pieces.

LC, if you could provide the example you hinted at here in which you were caught after saying something like "barking up the wrong tree", that'd be ideal. I am fairly sure I've seen that phrase from every alignment there is; it appears in as many game threads as it does not.

Your experiences have not trained you to be wary of that phrase, as mine have. I think that the forums it was discussed on are now defunct.

"Last thing I saw was a big FZ swing" -- I note Long Con discussing the player he had initiated a case against in neutral and external language. He was the first to voice concern with FZ on Day 1, but didn't engage her or talk about her thereafter until this moment (two minutes prior to the deadline). It's bizarre.

Not really bizarre. I wasn't there much that day.

Rainbow after Day 1 with speedchuck and FZ as top suspects.

That they were!

These are LC's responses to the accusations he received late in Day 1 regarding his handling of FZ. They must be taken or left at face value; I don't find them inspiring.

Reality is often mundane.

The highlighted portion becomes something of a trend in this post history. LC has cited something vague like "feeling" to assert suspicion of MP, speedchuck, and most recently me.

The gut wants what it wants, friend.

Night 1 rainbow -- the descriptive language here continues to be vague. "general vibes", "his posts are civvish to me", "I forget why he's low", etc. This demands that I believe LC is content playing the game entirely with his gut, and I don't know him to be that sort. He has typically been the analyst and a constructor of cases. That has not been present in his post history to this point.

I don't think your memories of me are accurate. Look at Blue vs Red. Or GOC2016. This is me.

He had the right idea about the questions I was asking FZ. The mindset is nice, the originality less so.

Flattery is the imitator of sincerity, they say.

Maybe TMI. I almost slipped myself out of a win in the burglary a couple nights ago when I blabbed my own motive for a night kill.

That is sometimes a thing, but it's not my thing.

Meh at this entire dialogue. What happened to Mac in the GOC was only marginally relevant in the first place, and to cite this argument to support concerns about Marmot just looks manufactured to me.

Nothing was manufactured, and I didn't have concerns about Marmot either. I just thought it was weird that he'd reference GOC2016 in a way that was different from my own memories of the game.

Again discussing the MP kill as though it was an obvious choice.

It kinda was.

Response to FZ's grievances -- This finally came on Day 2. LC grants a couple of her points and contested others; the prevailing read which emerges is that LC is still suspicious of her. More

Long Con disputes "hypocrisy" as a tell -- I have seen LC make this argument before as a civilian. If I recall correctly it was something we agreed on in a recent game, because I do think the core premise of the argument is valid. Civilians are as often hypocritical as mafia members, if not more often. Civilians have a tendency to forget themselves when making their arguments while mafia members have more reason to remain thoughtful of their own prior contributions. It ties into the consistency versus inconsistency argument which I think plays out similarly. This is probably LC's best moment.

Vague gut suspicion of speedchuck referenced earlier.

That's what we authors call 'foreshadowing'.

LC linked speedchuck with FZ. I feel a tinfoil brewing within that I will discuss later, and this is relevant to it.

Ah! 'Foreshadowing'...

LC reviews EOD1 as it reflects on FZ -- He looked over the votes that swung away from FZ and determined that he still suspected her. He is very consistent on this read from the start.

Day 2 rainbow with Wilgy, Luke, speedchuck, and FZ as reds

Spoiler: show
Long Con wrote:Four hours left in the lynch. I'm going to go with my gut and vote for speedchuck. If anyone wants to join me with this vote, I'll leave it here, otherwise I'll probably just go with whoever has votes and is lowest on my list. FZ asked us not to lynch her while she's not around, so I'm not likely to vote there.
He promoted a speedchuck lynch and voiced his willingness to give FZ more time per her request when she was away. I don't understand this, after he'd spend a large portion of his effort in this game prior casing her, debating with her, and calling her his top suspect. She asked for time and it was granted.

We lynched S~V~S on Day 1 in Blue vs Red recently, while she was completely not there, and while we had an outed baddie in the thread. I had negative emotions about that, so this time, I'm Joe Cool about allowing time.

I don't like this post. The highlighted portion especially bothers me, as it is a reach to extract a three-way read from speedchuck about Epi, LC, and FZ (without clarifying what the reads are specifically) and determine that he knows too much.

Yeah, it was kind of a reach. But I AM reaching for a Civ victory.

There are a couple decent moments outnumbered by numerous questionable moments. I suspect LC more than I did before this exercise. His treatment of FZ and speedchuck has me considering the notion that both LC and FZ are bad and their exchanges in this game have been bullshit. It started with LC initiating suspicion of her and then going silent about it when she was almost lynched. It continued when he linked her to speedchuck based upon what I view as weak content, and then when he let her pass through day phase per her request. It's tinfoil perhaps and I welcome others' thoughts on the matter.

Independent of that I'd call LC a suspect given the prevalence of vague reads and the fact that outside FZ discussion he hasn't actually given much to this game.

I can see how you might think that, but no.

FZ. wrote:It means that anyone can ask questions. I don't think I see anything civvie like in asking questions. It's a way to avoid being looked at, because you were only asking questions. You weren't really pointing the finger at me. The UN council comparison is a figure of speech meant to say you're on the fence. Not taking sides. I guess you'd have to be from where I am, to get that...Though you changed your behaviour since then. It actually worries me more, because it feels like it was a change done to please the critics.

Can you elaborate on JJJ's change and how it pleases the critics?

Shoot, I was supposed to copy that list over to here and post this post after updating it. Anyway, here you go:

So I went through JJJ's posts with the idea that I'm reading a baddie. I don't know how useful it was, because now I feel like he's bad. It was easy to see the baddie reasons for certain posts, I guess. I don't know if it's valid or not, but here's my updated rainbow list:

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.

Long Con wrote:Ok, I'm going to try something new for Day 3, I'm going to flip my list around a little. I don't feel like this speedchuck thing is going anywhere, and most people seem to trust him, so I'm taking him out of the equation. JJJ is someone that I want to look more into, so he's going to get viewed as bad for at least the first part of the day, and I'll see what that gets me. Some minor shuffling as well, INH is a top suspect at the moment.

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.

Dyslexicon wrote:
Marmot wrote:Something I want to point out.

Luke made a case on Dizzy yesterday before he died. There's a decent chance he was nightkilled because he was thought to be the cop.

So I think Luke's death is a bad look for Dizzy.
I knew Luke was NOT the cop, which is why I pushed him EoD last phase. No idea why he was killed except it looks bad for me, so yeah that's probably it. But I'm still the same alignment as I've been all game. Thanks wifom NK.

How did you know Luke wasn't the cop?

Marmot wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Marmot wrote:Something I want to point out.

Luke made a case on Dizzy yesterday before he died. There's a decent chance he was nightkilled because he was thought to be the cop.

So I think Luke's death is a bad look for Dizzy.
I thought of that as well. Could also be a frame-job with that in mind. I think it's a little weak either way, Luke wasn't being that much of a threat. On the other hand, Luke's low-laying style of play would be a good way to be the cop - try to stay out of the limelight to avoid getting killed. And making a crappy case (sorry Luke!) might just be a signal that Dizzy was bad, for us to go back and understand later. Looking at it from that perspective, that looks fantastically bad for Dyslexicon.

I'm a big fan of this now.
I'm just gonna assume you started this post with one process and shifted to another, because the two underlined statements oppose each other considerably.

That is an accurate read of the post.

I was going to point the finger at you a little bit, as if you were the baddie who tried to frame, but then no one brought it up. But I don't think that now. Too soon for an impatient baddie anyway.

Marmot wrote:Something I want to point out.

Luke made a case on Dizzy yesterday before he died. There's a decent chance he was nightkilled because he was thought to be the cop.

So I think Luke's death is a bad look for Dizzy.

I thought of that as well. Could also be a frame-job with that in mind. I think it's a little weak either way, Luke wasn't being that much of a threat. On the other hand, Luke's low-laying style of play would be a good way to be the cop - try to stay out of the limelight to avoid getting killed. And making a crappy case (sorry Luke!) might just be a signal that Dizzy was bad, for us to go back and understand later. Looking at it from that perspective, that looks fantastically bad for Dyslexicon.

I'm a big fan of this now.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Y'all review me and case me as you can. I'll anticipate some kind of substantive content.

Don't expect me to spend time answering to it though. I am pressed for time right now and I am not going to waste it on that shit. Tomorrow I hope to be able to at least begin full ISOs on everyone alive. Two civilian lynches demand thorough reassessment and that is my focus.

Not very inspiring.

Epignosis wrote:
speedchuck wrote:Can somebody remind me what the case on JJJ is?
His posts are bullshit, that's what. Vote him out and be done.

Can you give an example of some of the bullshittiest bullshit? Maybe some content you would expect instead, for comparison?

This is a big surprise, I hope you can back it up. Your confidence is optimism-inspiring.

Ok, I'm going to try something new for Day 3, I'm going to flip my list around a little. I don't feel like this speedchuck thing is going anywhere, and most people seem to trust him, so I'm taking him out of the equation. JJJ is someone that I want to look more into, so he's going to get viewed as bad for at least the first part of the day, and I'll see what that gets me. Some minor shuffling as well, INH is a top suspect at the moment.

Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Dyslexicon
Marmot
Elohcin
Luke11646
JaggedJimmyJay
insertnamehere
FZ.

Perhaps a short sentence on each of those three describing why you think they're Civ? I'm sure you have done some explanation, just looking for a quick reference.

Quiet night. Guess Civs everywhere are licking their wounds. Gives me time to go over things anyway. I'm going to flip some things around in my rainbow list, I think.

Listening to Lonerism... didn't realize that I DO know Tame Impala - Elephant has been played on the radio here.

speedchuck wrote:Marmot
FZ.
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
insertnamehere
DrWilgy
Epignosis
Luke11646
Long Con
Elohcin

POE list for this lynch for me. I'm more inclined to lynch one of the lurky people for the health of the game. This is an important lynch, but if we kill off a talkative townie, tomorrow will be much worse.

I'm honestly pretty bad at reads, so if you don't like my list, deal with it.

Can you explain your POE list a little? Process of Elimination, does that mean the green ones are cleared in your mind for certain reasons?

Crap, sorry Wilgy. I would have switched to INH if that had been happening in those last minutes, but he had zero votes and I was at work.

Switched to Wilgy for now. Doesn't seem like speedchuck is going. I'm at work, I'll try to sneak a check or two of the thread before lynch time.

Can I have an opinion from everyone please? On a scale of 1 to 10, How likely is it that FZ will be lynched in the next three days?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:A point Epi made about FZ which warrants consideration is that she has played nearly the whole game so far on the defensive. Ideally, in my opinion, a person in that position would eventually just say "to hell with that" and focus on reads. I acknowledge that not everyone plays the game like I do in that regard, and she also comes from a past era of Syndicate Mafia where such a mindset may have been less prevalent. That gives me pause on FZ. Long Con, do you have an opinion on this?
I feel like you mean to say "a Civ in that position...", otherwise this is just us theorizing on FZ's basic mindset, not her alignment. I think I understand that mindset - I think I tend to focus on myself a lot when I play. The idea doesn't make me change my alignment ideas regarding FZ - I don't know if "defensive FZ is Civ FZ" or is it shows her to be bad, or if it has little or no bearing on her alignment.
I mean that, for a player who is inclined to defend themselves whenever accused, consistently being in that position limits their ability to produce much else in the game thread. In that regard, if FZ is a civilian then she might not have had much of an opportunity, at least as she sees it, to show that. It's a difficult matter for me to sort because of my strategic perception of civilian Mafia is not like that. It's like culture clash.

At face value I find FZ suspicious.

As do I, and if she has not had much of an opportunity, then I'm fine with giving her some more. As in not lynching her on this day.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:A point Epi made about FZ which warrants consideration is that she has played nearly the whole game so far on the defensive. Ideally, in my opinion, a person in that position would eventually just say "to hell with that" and focus on reads. I acknowledge that not everyone plays the game like I do in that regard, and she also comes from a past era of Syndicate Mafia where such a mindset may have been less prevalent. That gives me pause on FZ. Long Con, do you have an opinion on this?

I feel like you mean to say "a Civ in that position...", otherwise this is just us theorizing on FZ's basic mindset, not her alignment. I think I understand that mindset - I think I tend to focus on myself a lot when I play. The idea doesn't make me change my alignment ideas regarding FZ - I don't know if "defensive FZ is Civ FZ" or is it shows her to be bad, or if it has little or no bearing on her alignment.

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