The Syndicate

Nevermind I looked back and I guess she has family visiting atm. Still, any idea why she survived?

What do you think of Daisy, MP? Any idea why she hasn't been posting lately? Any idea why she survived being lynched on Day 3?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Are you trustworthy Sock Head?

Sure, but only if I believe I can trust your intentions.

And may it be known that I'm not 'going after' Old Rogues or anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out what I thought was evident -- that the Old Rogues are NOT civilians and that they are merely a faction most similar to a conventional faction dubbed civilians.

Only once we all drop the "I'm civilian!!!" act can we truly play this game the way it should be being played right now, in my opinion. If you disagree, then by all means, feel free to vote me out. I won't be sour about it. I just would rather not play this game with everyone claiming to be a civilian and playing it from that perspective because I believe there's no reason to play this game in that fashion.

How should the game be played right now? Which faction should people be claiming? Which faction should we be voting out?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You said you had early BTSC with him right? Perhaps you have more insight than the rest of us.

Timmer and I had BTSC with DH at the same time on Day 2. He wasn't very talkative but I've come to expect that from DH after our BTSC in Death Note, he would disappear for a couple days and then come back later. We had actually just met up a second time after the lightning strike when he was suddenly killed

I don't know why Cold targeted him but I had no read on him. I didn't think he was bad though. Did Roxy suspect DH?

I don't think I deserved that

I'm always worth trusting.

S~V~S wrote:In any case, since family emergency means "slumber" to our confirmed civ, I need to just not be here tonight I think

What do you think about MP's post that I highlighted a little ways up?

Don't take llama's words too seriously would be my advice. He might suspect you but his reasoning seemed willingly silly. He also said he would consider changing his vote.

Glad to hear everything turned out okay with your neice.

Bass is playing a dangerous game if he only claimed Roxy was Captain Cold for the civ credit. He has painted a huge target on his back by coming out with that. I don't see the long-term benefits if he's lying. In any case I do think it's only his strong opinion, nothing he knew for certain.

Who did MP replace? I can't find it anywhere.

S~V~S wrote:

timmer wrote:In light of Roxy's map partner being Aces, I can't support an Aces lynch anymore. If people aren't behind a Roxy lynch, I'd also offer up a SpaceDaisy lynch as analternative. Roxy, why did you wait so long to reveal this?

You think she's lying about other things, but not about this?

TBH, if I was not worried about dying myself, I would vote for you, lol. You are really the sketchiest person in this thread, IMO.

S~V~S wrote:Ditto. I really only voted him cause he is Not Me and Timmer would go there.

I got Indy Rogue vibes from these posts. It is likely colored by the fact I just had BTSC with SVS in a game where we were independents but the whole "Not Me" thing reminds me very much of our goals during that game lol. The fact that she voted WITH Timmer, who she deemed the sketchiest person in the thread, says a lot about her motivations I think. I think SVS is mainly looking out for herself this game. At the same time her attitude seems civvie-aligned outside of these posts, specifically when she defended Bass 1.0. I know she's said that she would defend civvies as a baddie, and maybe she'd defend Bass if she was bad and knew that Bass was bad too, but this game setup is entirely different than most, and I think she was genuinely defending someone she didn't want to see leave the game. As I write this out I convince myself more and more that SVS is either playing with Indy motivations or she's fully committed to appearing that way. And if she were a New Rogue I think she would try harder to give off civvie vibes, not independent vibes.

Re: SVS I was feeling like she was an Indy Rogue or at least was trying to appear as such. I'll look back and see if I can find the quotes to support this.

FZ. wrote:I've been waiting to hear from TH this day because his game has ended. CIvvie TH is way more active. I followed his game a little, and at one point, I knew without reading the game, that he was bad, because had he been a civ, no matter how overwhelmed he was by the game, he'd be in there right in the middle of all the chaos. At the end, he fought like that, but it was the last stretch.

So this game, I've been waiting to see what will happen after the game. Now, unless he's silenced or whatever, I can't see civvie TH being so absent in this game.

As for Timmer, I maybe a totally naive here, but Timmer is getting to me and I believe him. He doesn't seem bad to me

Sorry FZ, after the Champs game ended I took some time off to refresh my mafia batteries. I've found it difficult to get into this game a bit since we can't draw BTSC connections between the baddies, at least not in the early going and I was so wrapped up in the other game for a while. I agree with you that Timmer seems sincere and I likely won't be voting for him, but weren't you saying earlier in the game that you weren't reading him as sincere? May I ask what changed?

For me, I'll say that I had BTSC with Timmer and DH on Day 2 during the Bass lynch and we talked extensively in chat about Bass potentially targeting himself. Timmer was the first to bring it up in chat and subsequently the first to put the idea out into the thread. I really don't see Timmer being a New Rogue for this reason.

FZ. wrote:Doesn't anyone find it weird that when we finally get replacements for some of the players, two people went for a kill this night, and it doesn't say who they were? To me that screams one of the replacements made the kill and in order to not make it obvious, the identities are left vague.
If llama didn't kill, then perhaps Captain cold isn't dead, and it wasn't Roxy, and that's another person who made the kill. Not sure about that though.

Yes FZ I think it's weird as well and worth talking about. We were missing some kills early in the game IIRC, no Grodd or Plunder kills. But here we are with a few new replacements and some mysterious kills show up. I think it points to Plunder being a new replacement specifically since he kills on even nights but didn't show up on night 2. The other option is that we already lynched Plunder and didn't even know it and that's why the kill was written mysteriously.

I think we can safely say that The Detectives were one of the two parties who targeted Bullzeye since they choose "e" to reveal in the secret roles and no previous detective kills had an "e" in them. But the other kill must have come from Grodd or Plunder IMO, pointing to the fact that that player might have been inactive before last night.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Given the nature of this game, it seems that most parties would want to minimize unnecessary conflict and accomplish their win conditions all the while appearing as reasonable and receptive to others as possible, yes?

I understand why it makes sense for everyone to appear civilian-friendly for the beginning of the game, but once a significant number of Old Rogues are dead, this game could take on more of an LMS-style.

It seems to me that we would want to eliminate players who seem unlikely to offer any harm to us, but simultaneously the argument can be made to eliminate those who could offer no benefit as well.

This post is giving me New Rogue vibes all over my body. It feels like MP is setting up a turning of the tide for once more Old Rogues are dead. It almost feels like he's threatening Old Rogues and Detectives with this post because he's saying they'll soon be in the minority and at the mercy of the other factions.

I could also see it coming from an Independent's perspective, in a "Hey New Rogues I'm not pushing an Old Rogue agenda at all so please leave me alone" sort of way.

But I cannot see it coming from an Old Rogue perspective at all.

I need to hear more from MP about why he chose to make this post. I understand if he's just trying to figure out how the game will play out, but it seems to be coming from the wrong mindset entirely.

If the Independents side with the Old Rogues and Detectives, we can still take out Grodd and the New Rogues and win the game together.

I'm voting Aces as well.

Long Con wrote:So... are Bass and Aces both silenced?

And Daisy too? Where are all our suspects?!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Because I feel more confident about Daisy and/or Aces being bad

I'm with you on Aces. Daisy has also pinged me with her atypical playstyle this game, but that may not mean anything.

For what it's worth, Daisy had mentioned to me that she was going to play a more active style this game, and I'm pretty sure she mentioned it before roles were sent out. So I don't think it means anything.

Except that's not really what happened is it? Daisy said she was going to be more active and talkative on Day 0, and she made 22 posts on Day 0, but she hasn't been very talkative since then. And my whole point against her is that she's dissipated entirely after we failed to lynch her Day 3.

She did push a case against LC but it garnered no support, so maybe that made her apathetic... she said multiple times after that that she doesn't care if we agree with her or not. Not exactly a model civvie attitude.

The only thing is, if Daisy had a lynch switch, I think it's more likely she would have used it to lynch LC instead of Aces, since it seemed like she suspected LC more and there was that huge kerfuffle where everyone thought Aces was good at the end of that lynch.

timmer wrote:Hmm... I read the whole thing as Daisy being the indy with the lynch-switch/lynch survival. So if she knew she wasn't going to die, maybe she switched it to Aces, but he also survived somehow? I agree that there is no way Daisy is civ. But bad? not sure.

Fair enough, I was looking for tildes that refer to "extra votes" or something to that effect and couldn't find any, so it could have been a switch, making Daisy the Indy and not Aces.

I think you forgot to answer my question though Timmer. Is there a reason you're voting Bass over Aces today given that Aces is more explicitly connected to Roxy? Are you worried he'll survive again?

Daisy's last content post before the Day 3 lynch post, after she has received the most votes and is about to be lynched:

Spacedaisy wrote:Just so you know, I was not being shady or manipulative. Was pointing out what I truly suspect and why. Agree or not, whatever. Obviously no one else sees it, but I'm fairly certain myself.

An innocent person who's about to be lynched doesn't need to say they're not being shady or manipulative, because their civvie role would soon be revealed and this would soon be obvious.

Daisy's first post after the lynch post:

Spacedaisy wrote:

And maybe I'm reading too much into this but it seems like hard evidence that Daisy knew she wasn't going to die.

No real content between this post and...

The next Day, starting at 10:07pm PST and ending at 11:24pm, Daisy made ten short posts, exactly none of which expressed any reads of players, and only one of which discussed game mechanics.

4 hours before the end of the alternate Day 3, Daisy finally gives her answer about what happened the previous lynch.

Spacedaisy wrote:I thought I knew what had happened during the last lynch right when it did, but it quickly became clear that I was incorrect. So I have no idea who did it, but it wasn't me. And the way the host wrote it makes it pretty clear that it is focused on Aces rather than me. I even talked to him about it just to be sure he realized the votes piled on me at the end. I don't know what happened but it was not because of me.

Acts clueless. Still doesn't give any reads for any players.

7 hours later:

Spacedaisy wrote:I'm sorry I missed this vote guys. Won't happen again.

She missed the vote.

LC questions her as to why she didn't say who she would have voted for in the above post. Note that LC asked why she didn't tell us who she would have voted for, not specifically who she would vote for. Seems important to understand the context Daisy's reply:

Spacedaisy wrote:I honestly don't know. I don't understand where the case on BF even came from, but it's easy to say post result that I wouldn't have voted there so whatever.

I'm guessing the "I honestly don't know" is the answer to LC's "why" question, not the answer to an unasked "Who" question. Still, she's still not saying who she would have voted for And all she says is she wouldn't have voted for the lynched civ.


So in conclusion, Daisy had a weird reaction to her imminent death, and then stayed out of the spotlight completely the next Day, and has not yet resurfaced with any suspicions at all.

Long Con wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:In any case, Aces explicitly survived a lynch and I have a specific role in mind that can do that, and it's not a New Rogue. Timmer what's your theory for why Aces survived? Have you found any tildes to support such a theory?

I know you asked Timmer, but I have two points to make about this. First, people seemed pretty sure that it was Spacedaisy that explicitly survived the lynch, and second, I've seen people survive lynches before, and it generally doesn't involve the whole day resetting.

Well Daisy survived the lynch in a different way than Aces did. She received the most votes, but if you read the lynch post, Aces is the one named in it as surviving the lynch. As far as Daisy's part in this, I'm about to post a short little timeline to present a case...

But yeah I'm not sure about the day resetting, that is bonkers no matter what else happened.

timmer wrote:Has anyone worked out what this is in Abra Kadabr's role?

s~r~~~~ a ~~~~, s~r~~~~ a ~~~~~

I've got nothing.

I posted the solution to this a while back and you even responded to it. lol. It's an important piece of the Roxy/Aces puzzle for me currently, but I'm willing to hear other interpretations for his lynch survival if you have them.

In the immediate aftermath of the Aces' non-lynch, I was feeling a lot better about Roxy due to how she handled the matter, compared to Timmer who had the opposite reaction. She showed a lot of restraint when she could have tacked on a vote for Aces and damned him with her BTSC story. But if they figured out they were New Rogues together, or lied about their BTSC and said it was map chat when it was really baddie chat, that shines a new light on their interactions completely, and it seems to be a case where if one of them is bad then the other must be as well.

So @ Timmer, if you think Roxy and Aces were plotting together, why are you voting for Bass 2.0 over Aces? I get what you're saying about Bass' vouch for her but wouldn't Ace be a more connected accomplice to Roxy than Bass is? And I don't know what to think about your BTSC with Roxy either... very odd that she stopped attending the second time around, as this was her main point of concern over Aces supposedly, the fact that he wasn't showing up in chat. I just really don't know what to make of it without knowing what all went down.

In any case, Aces explicitly survived a lynch and I have a specific role in mind that can do that, and it's not a New Rogue. Timmer what's your theory for why Aces survived? Have you found any tildes to support such a theory?

Speaking of that lynch, I still think Daisy's reaction to the whole thing was odd. I'm gonna pull quotes in a minute but she did not seem concerned at all about the fact she was about to be lynched, and the next Day she shied away from the spotlight completely while the thread spiraled in new directions.

Oh no Sorry BF. Rest in peace.

And yeah LC I'm surprised by how quickly the dogpile onto BF happened too.

S~V~S wrote:Daisy definitely had the most votes.

Well she never seemed too concerned about dying if you ask me. How close was it, was she only ahead by a vote or two?

Long Con wrote:I assumed that Aces had the most votes at the end of the original Day 3 because it was him that was in the lynch story post. So did Daisy definitely have the most votes?.

This is what I have been trying to figure out. Lynch post makes me feel good about Aces, but if Daisy actually had more votes then I have some questions.

Voting BF.

timmer wrote:Well look I'll spell it out.

Even though back when the bullz/BF thing happened BF said he was not a detective, I still felt that he likely was, and when llama rezzed, BF even said "WB friend" which felt co-detective-ish. But frankly, llama's few posts today haven't clicked with that. All he said was "BF's defense of me was odd and unexpected, but I do not read him as bad. I don't think baddies stick their necks out like that."

Maybe that's calle dbeing subtle and in my mind if it were me, I'd be a bit more blunt, but it doesn't feel like I'm right about my hunch.

And yes, quick turnaround, but I'm about to leave work and had to make a decision.

No I get it and I'm basically on the same page. Was laughing at how adamant you were about not voting for him a second ago. Llama's defense of BF could be intentionally subtle but he could also know nothing about BF at all given how he worded it. BF also could have let us play up his detective status but he didn't coast with it and made sure to say he had a different role in mind for Llama. Either way it was important to cover his ass there so he wouldn't be NK'd or get suspicion from the real detectives, but I don't know, the rest of BF's play doesn't make me feel great about him.

Does no one at all have the tally from the first Day 3?

timmer wrote:I just did a complete reread of BF.

About the only really ping-y thing i could see was his "wtf?" reaction to how the Bass 1.0 lynch went down. For the rest, I've got an alignment in mind for him, and he seems to be pursuing leads as he sees them. I'm not sure I could say he's bad, but I don't think he's an Old Rogue, either. I won't vote for him, but won't really be going out of my way to defend him, if that makes sense?

timmer wrote:I'll go with BF. If my hunch about his role were correct, I think I would have seen something today that frankly, I didn't see. So my thoughts on his role are likely wrong.

BF

lol quick turnaround...

I was hoping we'd hear more from BF. And everyone else really. Less than an hour til deadline and tons of votes/players unaccounted for :-/

I meant to quote FZ's other post where she talked about how BF only really discusses one player per lynch.

FZ. wrote:I think I'm just going to vote for BF. I really need to go to sleep, and I can't wait anymore. The only thing keeping me from voting BF is llama, but since he's not answering, I might as well vote and get out of here

I agree, I think I brought it up earlier. BF's focus has been much narrower than I would have expected from him this far into the game. I asked for Llama's take but like you said he hasn't provided one yet.

Timmer what do you think of BF?

Abra Kadabra – He is a stage magician who uses futuristic technology to put on the greatest show on Earth. As such, he has a bevy of powers at his disposal. Once each, he can: ~~s~~~~~, ~~~~~-s~~~~~, r~~~ ~~~~~, ~~~~r s~~~~, s~~~~~~, s~r~~~~ ~ ~~~~, s~r~~~~ ~ ~~~~~, ~r r~s~rr~~~ ~~~~~~r ~~~~~r.

Abra Kadabra – He is a stage magician who uses futuristic technology to put on the greatest show on Earth. As such, he has a bevy of powers at his disposal. Once each, he can: ~~s~~~~~, ~~~~~-s~~~~~, r~~~ ~~~~~, ~~~~r s~~~~, s~~~~~~, survive a kill, survive a lynch, or resurrect another player.

Interesting points about DH, timmer-prime. I don't think it's DH's baddie-MO to go after low posters, I think he's more conniving than that when he's bad, but I'd like to know why he singled Made out from the other people that aren't playing.

I gave the tildes a once-over looking for things like "reverse" "stop" "mirror" and couldn't really find anything. Then it occurred to look for "alternate" so I'ma do that now and also "lightning strike".

Also Zoom's role has a bunch of ??????'s after the tildes and no other role has that, so there may be secret secrets. Also why are there two arch-villains named Zoom

FZ. wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I actually feel a lot better about how Roxy played yesterday now knowing that her BTSC buddy was Aces. If Roxy wanted to she could have hopped on the Ace wagon early and fueled it further with her story about BTSC but yet she showed restraint. Roxy earned a few civvie points in my book for that move.

What does everyone think of BF atm? I feel like he's been coming in here and voting for Bullzeye repeatedly and not contributing much other than that, other than to chastise us for who we've lynched be they bad or good. I'm interested in hearing Llama's opinion of BF.

He did say he was voting for someone else this day. I think it's DH

Oh okay thanks I missed that. I'm feeling pretty good about DH, what do you think of him?

I actually feel a lot better about how Roxy played yesterday now knowing that her BTSC buddy was Aces. If Roxy wanted to she could have hopped on the Ace wagon early and fueled it further with her story about BTSC but yet she showed restraint. Roxy earned a few civvie points in my book for that move.

What does everyone think of BF atm? I feel like he's been coming in here and voting for Bullzeye repeatedly and not contributing much other than that, other than to chastise us for who we've lynched be they bad or good. I'm interested in hearing Llama's opinion of BF.

Guys I think Made is on the poll as "Destroyed".

Long Con wrote:One thing I did want to mention is that we possibly should be concerned that this is some sort of reverse day. Should we just vote as normal for the most suspicious person? We probably should, because if we get all caught up in guessing things could go wrong. But it's worth at least talking about a little bit.

Do you see any alternative way to play it?

Um, who exactly was not-lynched? Did anyone take a screenshot of the poll results? It's not in the results thread, I have no idea what the final tallies were...

Welcome back Llama, booyah!

Roxy wrote:

timmer wrote:Tell me one more time, Roxy. What is your opinion of Aces? And how are things going with the person you are in BTSC with?

you need to catch up, Roxy. The reason I had, which I mentioned previously, for thinking you were indy because the only role that could silence on odds nights, going by tildes, was an indy. And I've proven that Murmur's role, the only one that directly says he silences people, had previously said EVEN nights, which gave you an out. Only it's been corrected to ODD nights. You were silenced on an odd night. You needed to be found by the SAME person Bass 1.0 needed to be found by, and you both used your powers on yourselves as a shout out.

More importantly, to go with that, you've hedged your bets all game, not really committing to any one side, except for Epig early on, which was kind of an easy choice to make.

Iff you are such an expert at my mafia style then you would no I LOATHE silencing roles and would never have used it on anyone especially myself.

Now you are saying Epi was an easy choice how many different ways in one day can you find me suspicious? This is so hilarious!
I will not tell you how I feel about Aces just to irk you.

This is not true. You have silenced yourself as a baddie in two games I have played with you. The fact that you didn't read the thread while silenced makes me think you do not hate silence roles like you're trying to say you do.

I am on the same page as Timmer, I thought you were cleared from silencing yourself as murmur because it said even nights and you were silenced on an odd night. I no longer can say that this is the case. I think you're bad

Voting Roxy.

Roxy wrote:Rabbit - why?

Timmer I was hoping for some sort of reaction - but you failed to say anything. Why?

Turnips - nothing to say about me - your hugest suspicion suddenly dropped? Why?

You were my top suspicion going into Day 2 but Timmer's slight vouch for you made me think he figured something out so it's on pause right now. I do think it's odd that you admitted to not reading the thread while you were silenced. But I'm intrigued by your BTSC incident, someone deciding to not communicate in square chat is worth looking into. Was it someone who suspected you? Any ideas why the person never showed up? Are you going to namedrop before deadline so we can discuss it?

blindfaeth wrote:I don't really feel like I've been around less, but it may seem that way because it takes longer for me to catch up on the posts now that we are past fluff and a higher percentage of them are longer.

I think it's fair to say your activity levels have dropped off, but I'm not seeing much of a change in the overall thread activity level. If anything it seems quieter in here now than it did Day 1, back when you were a relatively high poster. I must be missing these long, non-fluff posts of which you speak. But I'll admit, now that I'm experiencing the absolute madness that is the Champs game, my idea of a busy thread might be quite different from yours

Do you have any reads other than Bullz for not helping and Sophie for being OT? What do you think of SVS, Daisy vs LC, Aces etc. ? Do you genuinely suspect DH for going after SVS or was this an "on principle" vote because you don't agree with his methods?

FWIW I agree that Sophie could be trying harder to help when she is here, but I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with her still to see if she turns it around. Same thing with Bullz tbh, I'm feeling okay about him but he needs to step it up.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Would

Turnip Head wrote:Bullzeye

be obstructive if

Turnip Head wrote:Bullzeye

is a civvie?

Yes I think he could be, though I don't approve. I think that's just his personality, and maybe what he means by "always playing his baddie game". I'd like it if he stepped it up though so I could get a more accurate read on him.

Rest in peace Epi, sorry to see you go

I don't know that I feel as strongly as DH does about SVS being bad due to her defense of Bass. First of all it now seems likely that Bass died with no BTSC since he subbed back in, so it couldn't have been an "in the know" defense. I think Bass is a blindspot for SVS's radar, but I think she insists on defending him in games when he's attacked, which she probably should stop doing so bluntly when she doesn't know anything, because I think it gets her into trouble :P But I doubt me saying that will stop her from playing how she wants, lol. At the end of the day I believe SVS when she says she didn't think Bass was bad. At the moment I'm reading her intentions as pure because I don't know why she would go through the trouble of defending him if she's bad and didn't know his role.

I don't suspect LC at this point, I think Daisy is reading what she wants to into his intentions. He had a good rebuttal to her initial inquiries about taking responsibility for his votes, but Daisy replied to that by basically saying "Ok fair enough, but I still don't think you're civ." I think Daisy is tunneling on her read of LC and isn't considering the alternative scenario where she's wrong. Not sure how that makes me feel about Daisy but I'm feeling pretty good about LC.

I don't like that blindfaeth's reaction to us lynching a baddie is to say the case sucked and the lynch was dumb He also seems to have deliberately misconstrued what the case actually WAS on Bass. We didn't lynch Bass because he was saying "cheat", at least that's not why I voted for him, I voted due to LC's observation that Bass had called out 6 players without naming names and followed up on exactly none of them, making it look like he wasn't really hunting baddies. I can't figure out why BF doesn't see it that way but he seems way more upset about this than he should be. I think maybe he's just upset we're not listening to him, I'll take a closer look at Bullzeye but I think BF's read on Bullzeye is too straightforward. Bullzeye wouldn't be THIS obstructive if he was actually a baddie, would he? Is that too much WIFOM? Bullz seems to be playing a selfish game for sure, but I'm not sure it means he's bad. In any case I'll look into it more because as the game has wore on I haven't felt that Bullz cares about much other than saving himself but I want to give him some room to breathe so he's not constantly worried about his neck being on the line. Bullzeye, where are you looking for this lynch?

Nice job guys. see you in the next game Bass.

If Magenta wants to stop this lynch and get BTSC with the Detectives... now would be the time to do so!

I meant your standards for me, which seem to be inline with my own standards for myself, so I think we're on the same page here

Sorry my suspicion is weak by your standards SVS, and I agree, I wish I had more reasoning behind a vote. I think it's going to be difficult to pin down the disparate baddies in this game because they likely don't have much BTSC yet. But weak suspicions does not a baddie turnip make, and I'm sure my reads will get stronger as the game advances. I just don't feel strongly about much yet and my top suspect today is still silenced, so there's that.

I do think there's something to Bass bringing up the outlier votes but not fully following through with it, but I admit it's not a very strong case. Just what caught my eye the most today.

Voting Bass as I don't think I'm going to get another chance to check in before deadline.

Bass you mentioned the 6 outsider votes but I don't see you pursuing that lead any further with specific suspects. That's why it feels like you're just casting a wide net and letting other players do the dirty work.