The Syndicate

I also think BR and Timmer are both being narrow minded when they narrow down their Top suspects. I haven't ruled out the Top being any replaced player. There's nothing really linking the early rabbit and MM mind controls to the BR or even MP ones. It just looks like a lot of noise to me.

Black Rock wrote:I think it is narrow minded to rule out TH because he has publicly supported you. TH is just the feb that would publicly support someone while under-minding them behind the scenes. I would not rule out TH because of that. I do see the particular "Timmer" thing being MM though. Maybe he did self target. I'm leaning more towards TH though.

I haven't caught up yet, I will do that now.

Take your tinfoil hat off BR :P This isn't me.

I could see MM targeting himself, and admitting to being a self-targeter. It doesn't really explain why his is the only one that's different from the other mind controls though, unless you count MP.

MM pushed Timmer's name a lot yesterday without elaborating throughout the Day. He retroactively painted a case (of Timmer "trying to be helpful" IIRC) the next night after the vote. I also felt like he made a big thing of posting the decoded New Rogue roles the other day, one post after another. Especially just after it seemed like a little heat was headed MM's way for the first time this game. MM also has not been casually saying things like "Vote Timmer" ever since we started talking about the Top in more detail today. What happened to your Timmer rage today, Marsh?

I'm not sure I like the easy pileup on DREAM. DREAM, you were singled out over someone like Soneji because there's speculation that a more recent replacement took over a killing role, since we were missing some kills before you subbed in. I think you missed that part, or you didn't respond to it, which inadvertently makes me feel better about you. I don't really like your singular focus on SVS today though. I think there's been other things going on worth discussing. Maybe you are mind controlled.

I don't think SVS is bad, I think she's more likely to not read fully or defend strongly when she's a civvie, but I do think her vote for DREAM is just as opportunistic as DREAM's vote for SVS, and this was the reason SVS gave for voting her.

SVS you still haven't elaborated on the Sophie portion of your post. I guess maybe it's because you don't feel strongly about it anymore. But I feel like she is getting a free pass. Soneji is getting a free pass too but that's a different story.

Timmer, why did you vote DREAM over one flippant comment, instead of staying on MM - who you went to some lengths to suspect for game related reasons?

DREAM wrote:During the last vote I didn't feel confident in a vote for SVS but this time around I could vote for her with more confidence. TBH, I'd feel like a total asshole voting her for obvious reasons, but the more time I spend reading LC's arguments the more I see where he's coming from and it was this post stuck out the most to me. The part about Sophie pinged me and I think that is because I had never taken my eye off of her since i started getting that vibe that I had pointed out earlier. Then the part where she tells LC that he's wrong, but nothing telling him how or why. Lastly, I can't tell if the 3d paragraph is saying that TH and Timmer are a certain group or what but it just didn't sit well with me. If I had to vote, like, right now, right now it would be for SVS.

Sorry for the short post, a lot of reading for this and for work, my eyes are killing me and I can't keep all the windows straight. I've got alarms set, so I will be back in time for the vote.

What do you think of SVS currently voting for herself?

And can you explain what you mean about the Sophie part?

timmer wrote:So who is The Top? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the list of people claiming to have been mind controlled so far is rabbit, MM and BR? I feel like I've missed one. Rabbit had to vote for BF, BR had to push Roxy/Aces and couldn't go against me, and MM had to put my name in everything. Is that all correct?

The one that appears to be missing is Day 5, ie the Day Alex Committed Hara-kiri, but there's no conclusive evidence. It doesn't fit the others though. And you're right, neither does Marshy's

I don't really know how FZ would play that role, tbh I've only seen her baddie game in small doses. Her in-thread behavior doesn't really match up with whatever the Top is trying to accomplish though.

Looks like it.

Bass_the_Clever wrote:I'm starting to think timmer might not be a new rouge.

Who are you looking at for today?

DREAM wrote:I'm so sorry about my absence. It's not an excuse but the truth is I forgot about mafia... In my defense this is my first game in. Couple of years.. Anyhow, I'm sorry I missed the vote I thought I would have time to catch up and vote but in Monday I was in court all day couldn't have my phone while I was working anyhooanyhoo.

CuriousCurious... What's up with thethe votePhone is trippint. I promise I'll be back onotonight. Setting N alarm. EtfWTF! htipping . Phkne

See ya soon DREAM.

Long Con wrote:Ok, we still have to keep playing even though S~V~S had to go for a bit.

Turnip Head wrote:

Long Con wrote:Ok, I dig that. Let me just play Devil's Advocate here: What if Timmer was just hoping he was wrong?

I guess it's possible, but I don't have any reason to think that, do you? The only New Rogue role that I think would make sense for Timmer to do this as is Plunder. Because otherwise, if Timmer is right about Bass, then Plunder potentially kills Timmer as revenge. High chance of backfiring.

Are you giving DH and I the same level of trust? I know he's dead, but the question stands.

For the most part yes. I think DH would have gone with the Bass vote regardless, I felt there was some residual feelings from Death Note in his play here. And you went after Bass for different reasons than Timmer did so I didn't feel the same about it, but overall I've been giving you the BOTD because I've liked the way you've approached the game.

Timmer, I think you should approach the game as if no one is suspicious of you. What are your thoughts today, where are you looking?

I want DREAM to come back. His one content-y post that I remember showed promise if he's indeed looking for baddies, but the drop-off since then has me concerned that that post was an illusion and he was just trying to blend in. Not enough to go on, DREAM come back!

I also still want to know what SVS was seeing re: Sophie from the last lynch.

What would you have expected Sophie to do differently yesterday, SVS?

I had a DREAM last night that somebody should talk more.

Nice job, Wiz!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Tar Pit – A Rogue whose body is composed of sticky, molten tar. Players who occupy the same location as Tar Pit cannot move to a new location to perform actions until he leaves.

I didn't have this one but it sounds like people might want to cross reference this with their previous and future adventures.

Look who's trying to appear helpful.

timmer wrote:

Long Con wrote:Ok, so it's not Grodd that is controlling people's minds. It it the Secret Role, who I now expose as... The Top! dun dun dunnnnn.....

I solved Grodd's role:

Gorilla Grodd (????????) – He wants Keystone and Central City all for himself and his gorilla empire. He is the Serial Killer and is immune to all mind control. Because of Grodd’s telepathic power, he will know where every player is and what they’re up to during the game.

So he's immune to mind control, but he doesn't control others. Looks like he gets a lot of map awareness, not sure what information is gained through knowing "what players are up to".

The Super Secret role (still some words missing):

The Top – He can spin…really fast. ~~~~~ ~~~~s targeted at him will be redirected to a random player. His spinning a~~~~~~es s~~e~~~ gave him the power to mind control as well. Every night, he can choose a player to act as he wishes during the next day.

So... the person Black Rock is looking for is The Top, aka the Super Secret Role, and not Grodd.

I wonder if Grodd's serial killer ability is map based? He knows where everyone is, and can come and hunt them down, maybe?

Anyways, disclaimer, any and all of my role solutions could be wrong, so it would be sensible for someone else to cross-check and verify my solutions to be more sure.

^Here is what I remember. It was Long Con who suggested Grodd could be a map-based killer.

You connected a lot of dots from that though

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Long Con wrote:Ok, I dig that. Let me just play Devil's Advocate here: What if Timmer was just hoping he was wrong?

I guess it's possible, but I don't have any reason to think that, do you? The only New Rogue role that I think would make sense for Timmer to do this as is Plunder. Because otherwise, if Timmer is right about Bass, then Plunder potentially kills Timmer as revenge. High chance of backfiring.

Or the Top.

Timmer's playing with a lot of fire if he's the Top.

timmer wrote:

Long Con wrote: Ok, I dig that. Let me just play Devil's Advocate here: What if Timmer was just hoping he was wrong?

Linki: Timmer, how do we know Grodd has a higher movement rate than the (I assume average) movement rate of 1? If we have confirmed that, I'm just forgetting.

Wasn't he decoded to be a map-based killer? I'd have to look back to whoever decoded it, but I assume he'd have to have a movement rate a bit higher than 1 in that case, otherwise that would be a pretty rough role.

I don't remember this being discussed

Long Con wrote:Ok, I dig that. Let me just play Devil's Advocate here: What if Timmer was just hoping he was wrong?

I guess it's possible, but I don't have any reason to think that, do you? The only New Rogue role that I think would make sense for Timmer to do this as is Plunder. Because otherwise, if Timmer is right about Bass, then Plunder potentially kills Timmer as revenge. High chance of backfiring.

Long Con wrote:I don't really have a lot of faith in map-BTSC claims since Roxy vouched for Aces and he turned out to be Professor Zoom. If we had trusted Roxy on that one, Llama would probably be dead, since that's Professor Zoom's main goal.

Long Con, my map-vouch for Timmer essentially boils down to the fact that I'm almost certain he brought up the "Bass cursed himself" theory in our chat before anyone had ever looked Bass' way in the thread. Roxy's vouch for Aces was super vague and she refused to tell us anything specific. I'm telling you exactly what Timmer did in chat AND in thread that makes me think he isn't likely to be a New Rogue. That's not a "map-vouch", that's me bringing extra evidence from the chat into the thread. Whether or not you believe me is up to you I guess.

Lmao. Awesome avatar MP.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:TH, perhaps you are confusing llama with me (but maybe not). I think I changed my vote 10 different times yesterday, but I did not vote for DREAM at all.

I'm not confusing you. Yesterday Llama voted for SVS, MP, DREAM, and Timmer, and those are just the ones I remember.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:It doesn't show in the poll anymore, but there was a time late in that lynch where MP had 4 votes (including his own), Timmer had 3, and DREAM had 3. I tried to get MP to move his vote but he wouldn't. Then Llama and Devin flipped their votes off of DREAM and onto Timmer, so I switched to MP.

I did so because I wanted to try and save MP. I even said so. I do remember you stating that you would vote for MP to save Timmer, so I can certainly vouch for you there. I don't know why MM doesn't seem to remember that part.

I do, but TH also said he didn't really want MP lynched, and also acknowledged that MP might mind-controlled and that we could hopefully here from him after the fact. But rather then give MP the opportunity to explain it, he put a decisive vote on MP instead.

Well the only alternative was to vote for Timmer, who wasn't acting like a raving lunatic. That lynch was fucked up no matter how you slice it, unfortunately. I do wish we could have given MP more time.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I completely forgot that Spacedaisy voted for MP too, after he self-voted. I'll count Sophie out since llama vouched for her. How often does it happen that we lynch a player who asks to be lynched, and they turn up bad?

And another question for you TH that I don't know if you've answered. What do you think timmer is aside from not New Rogue? I do think it is clear that he is not a Detective, so we've narrowed it down a little.

And I semi-apologize for hounding you. I'm making up for a week of not being able to mafia.

Linki: my curse was quite similar to BR's so I got the feeling that she was being honest.

I don't have a specific role in mind for Timmer, I think he could just as easily be an independent or an Old Rogue. Hell he could be Grodd and I'd feel like an idiot for defending him.

I don't think BR is lying about her curse either, that'd be odd behavior from her IMO.

linki: Llama moved his vote around a lot, but when there were 3 votes on DREAM, I'm pretty sure it was me, Llama and Devin.

It doesn't show in the poll anymore, but there was a time late in that lynch where MP had 4 votes (including his own), Timmer had 3, and DREAM had 3. I tried to get MP to move his vote but he wouldn't. Then Llama and Devin flipped their votes off of DREAM and onto Timmer, so I switched to MP.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:But it doesn't explain why you are viewing timmer as not a New Rogue. I don't understand.

In that case maybe you didn't read any of the reasons I gave for defending him and instead simply focused on the fact I was defending him. Go back and read my posts and let me know if you still don't understand.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:And I really don't like your late vote for MP, with the lynch tied between timmer and MP.

I specifically said I was going to do this very thing. I didn't want either of them to be lynched yesterday, and I tried to push the lynch onto DREAM, but I said if it came to Timmer or MP, I would be voting MP. MP practically begged me to do so, even.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:This night period, you have called timmer contributing and helpful, while also giving reasons for why he has not been helpful.

Okay...

Black Rock wrote:I had to build a case linking Roxy and aces. I also could not mention Timmer. When I talked to the host about it he basically told me I had to ignore his existence. No quotes, nicknames, or references to him. Roxy was killed the night I was cursed so I based it around Aces, they likely wanted both of them dead. They likely want Timmer alive.

I think they likely wanted Timmer to be the focal point of discussion, knowing you would bring this up the very next day since everyone has been openly talking about mind control. Unless the Top didn't have the foresight to think of that, in which case it is the opposite of being clever or well thought out.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:For what it's worth, TH and timmer stated late after the fact that they had an early bout of BTSC (almost like they discussed whether to reveal it or not). The Golden Glider is dead, and Bass 2.0 has proposed that Roxy was Captain Cold. If Bass 2.0 is right, then why would TH continue to vehemently defend timmer even after their BTSC was lost?

Good question MM. Why would I continue to defend Timmer... hmmm... I guess it could be because we're baddies together and I'm being really super obvious about it, which is not my style at all... or maybe it's because I don't think he's bad.

I had no reason to disclose that I had BTSC with Timmer until recently, it would have served no purpose. I brought it up recently because I thought it would help explain why I'm viewing Timmer as not a New Rogue.

By bringing up Glider and CC/HW, you are acting like a player can only defend people they have BTSC with. You are missing that the entire point of mafia is to figure out who's bad and who's good, and that it's usually done without BTSC.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:You also don't talk at night when you are civvie or civvie-friendly.

That's not always true, that's an inaccurate generalization of how I play. And you didn't answer my questions.

Well I'm not the one behind this

S~V~S wrote: I do think it is a bit more than is the norm for YOU, not me, though, TH.

I wouldn't say that's true. I defend people when I feel good about them and I think they're being wrongly accused. At this point I don't even know what Timmer is being accused of, except mind control by BR and of not being helpful in a retroactive case by MM. I've laid out some reasons why I feel good about Timmer. You should reread me , I think you missed the part where I had real-time interaction with Timmer during the Bass lynch in square chat. That is definitely influencing my opinion of him.

And I agree with FZ's BTSC breakdown too, lol.

linki: Interesting list BR Why am I at the top of it?

S~V~S wrote:TH is defending Timmer verging on Cap't Obvious territory, which gives me some pause. Don't know why he would do such a thing while bad, but based on my worldview of this game, can't see how else that would work. I have detectives in mind, I have a CC/HW in mind. so... urh.

No Cap't Obvious'ing going on here, SVS. It only looks like that because I was repeatedly asked about my stance on Timmer. I know nothing about his role or anyone else's. You worldview doesn't allow you to see how else I could be defending Timmer without knowing anything about his role? This coming from the person who defended Bass 1.0?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:Well it's hard to be helpful when you spend all day getting accused of mind controlling people and receiving votes. He was on the defensive all day. And frankly not many people spoke up with suspicions today because this lynch got derailed by whatever was going on with MP.

I would think though, if Timmer were bad, he would have spent less time talking about who he didn't want to lynch and more time talking about who we should lynch instead of him.

Is he trying to be helpful or not though?

I feel like I've already answered this... I think he's trying to be helpful. You're looking solely at his contributions today and asking me if those contributions are helpful... I'm looking at the entirety of his play because today is just one piece of the Timmer puzzle.

It feels like you're retroactively trying to highlight his actions today, in a vacuum, as bad, after the vote is over. Did you give a reason for voting Timmer today? Did you feel during Day 5 that Timmer has not been helpful this game?

Well it's hard to be helpful when you spend all day getting accused of mind controlling people and receiving votes. He was on the defensive all day. And frankly not many people spoke up with suspicions today because this lynch got derailed by whatever was going on with MP.

I would think though, if Timmer were bad, he would have spent less time talking about who he didn't want to lynch and more time talking about who we should lynch instead of him.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:LC, that's assuming that New Rogues establish BTSC. I firmly believe they can only do so via the map, otherwise would be OP. But fair enough.

And stubborn is my middle name. :P

I also thought that MP brought up a good point here. It may or may not be true, but the idea sounds reasonable to me.

And you know who had BTSC early on in the game via the map? timmer, TH, and DH (DH was killed by Captain Cold too).

What's your point? Timmer, DH, and I all fell into the same square on Day 2, and we had BTSC, and DH died, and... what's your point? I haven't had BTSC with Timmer since then. I haven't had BTSC with anyone since then except briefly with DH again before he died. None of that means anything. Other players have had BTSC too. You're drawing connections between things that aren't at all related.

I feel good about Timmer because of the contributions he made in BTSC, and because of his contributions in the thread. LC, I didn't feel like Timmer was trying to hog all the credit for the Bass lynch, he was just pointing out that logically his contributions don't make much sense from a New Rogue angle. And I'm sure he's capable of FEB'ing us, but that doesn't mean that he is. If he is, I don't see it. He's one of a few players that I'd say is actually trying to help at this point. It also looks like the Top is trying to frame him, so there's that to consider too.

Rest in peace MP, you crazy bastard.

thellama73 wrote:I like mafia roulette. Tie game it is.

Not on my watch hombre!

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I have switched my vote too many times today and I will not do it again.

Bummer.

Come with me if you want to live.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Vote for me, TH, you Turnipy Bastard!

Don't worry, I'll vote for you if the DREAM lynch doesn't happen and I have to save my boy Timmer

In fact I'll go ahead and vote for DREAM.

I'd rather vote for DREAM than Soneji because Soneji likely isn't killing anybody and DREAM could be. DREAM's post about suspecting Bass of trying to claim civ cred pinged me the wrong way but he hasn't posted since then. I know it's not much, but it's more of a reason than what you're giving for Soneji.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

Well he kinda has to push his ideas to some extent to doesn't he? That's part of being cursed/mind-controlled.

But the self-vote gives me pause, I believe rabbit was forced to vote a particular way, as was I. Would MP be forced to self-vote?

I would feel more comfortable waiting until tomorrow so MP can debrief us on whether or not he's been mind controlled, but I'm not sure where else to turn my vote towards. I don't want to lynch Timmer, he seems okay to me. And I maintain that at least one of the recent replacements is a newly minted killer. But I haven't heard enough from DREAM and Devin seems like he's on the level so far. MP is definitely the sketchiest of the bunch, but at the same time I don't see him willingly playing like this if he has a killing role.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

FZ. wrote:I was about to unvote after reading the previous page, and then MP lost it. Is he admitting to being bad?

I don't think so... where are you seeing that?

MovingPictures07 wrote:LMS, more like LSS. Last Sock Standing, bitch.

Or, in this case, Lynch (the) Motherfucking Sock.

Lol. I love you man.

Tell me how that doesn't make you "untrustworthy".

I feel like I've conveyed my point of view as best as I can. If you're not seeing what I'm saying about your behavior, MP, I can't help you out. Your actions have done nothing but try and cause division where it wasn't necessary. You are clearly okay working with the New Rogues, or you're one of them yourself.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Also be wary of players trying too hard to act as though they are neutral yet their intentions indicate a contradiction. Hopefully that will help you determine those people who are lying.

LOL, but MP... that's you!

MovingPictures07 wrote:I want it to be known. Why is everyone voting for me? At least timmer added the clause that it seems unlikely I'm a Detective or Old Rogue. That's fair enough. But I don't trust FZ. as far as I can throw her.

I demonstrated yesterday that your original post about this, and all your subsequent posts thereafter, did not come from an Old Rogue or even Old Rogue-aligned perspective. You wanted to challenge the idea that there were civvies and baddies, which, fine, but you said the New Rogues could just as easily be considered "civvies", and that the Independent Rogues could work with the New Rogues now that the Old Rogues seem to be dwindling in number. If you were more inclined to work with the Old Rogues and Detectives, there would have been no reason for you to have rocked the boat like this, because the game was already moving in that direction.

All of this tells me that you have New Rogue-aligned ideals, or at best, that you have no problem siding with the New Rogues at this point. And to me, that means you cannot be trusted.

And what's this about FZ? I don't think you've even mentioned her before this post.


linki: Reading

I was hoping we would have gotten more out of Sophie by this point. I gave her a lot of leeway while she said she was busy with RL things going on, but that busyness supposedly ended a while ago and her activity still hasn't picked up. She hasn't posted at all this lynch. It's tough to get a read on her.

Good point about MP possibly being mind controlled LC. That would make his posts today make a lot more sense tbh.

Black Rock wrote:I probably wouldn't have been bothered by this post if it hadn't been for the second part of my mind control that specifically stopped me from suspecting Timmer all together.

Those two things along with the fact that I had suspected and voted for Timmer the day before have all lead me to believe that he was the player who mind controlled me.

If Timmer mind controlled you, shouldn't he have expected you to come to this exact conclusion the next day? Looks like a set up. The WIFOM doesn't seem worth it.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.

Who're you going to vote?

Probably MP. I mean I get what he's saying about this game being unconventional. But it feels like he's trying to push the Independents away from supporting the Old Rogues, and that seems like a New Rogue agenda. Or he's just a rogue Indy rogue gone rogue.

I also still think one of the replacements is doing the killing.

FWIW I found something just now that makes me think Daisy is trustworthy.

S~V~S wrote:Yeah, I think you should vote me. MP is so right about me, like he always is. I switched my vote. Maybe then the few of you left that are civvies or that feel their win conditions are better aligned with the civvies, can see which way the wind blows.

...What are you doing lol

This game got real weird today.