The Syndicate

well it was the only read made over the course of like 70% of the game so

I wanted to joke that you might be using tinder wrong but I realized that I also primarily get lied to by strangers on tinder.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:30 pm I'm just saying that the way you're advocating playing mafia is probably closer to the way I use Tinder than the way I play mafia.

I also enjoyed playing with you and look forward to playing with you again, I'm just explaining my mafia playstyle/theory. I don't have any hard feelings against you but I don't think what I did was wrong and I'd do it again in a similar scenario. You can claim it led to our loss this game, but it would have been fine if everyone else had been on board and just played F3 normally, and besides I think over the course of multiple games it wins more games than it sabotages.

well, no. yeeting me was a good decision from an "all things being equal" perspective, and I am always prone to dramatically accepting or rejecting my own death depending on moods.

if you really didn't rush vote martin first it's actually 100% not suboptimal. that changes basically all of the context.

I think we just approach mafia differently and that's fine. I don't think either of us is entirely wrong and I'm sure having different viewpoints will lead to fun debates in the future, hopefully ones where I'm not behind the crosshair

Unfortunately I can't go on tinder for social deduction cus I am too busy using tinder as an outlet for creating and solving logic puzzles and I don't want to double dip.

oh wow

do you really need me to read all that?

And I really want to be 100% clear here I enjoyed playing with you tremendously here, and I look forward to playing with you again, I don't expect you to magically start seeing things my way and spend effort trying to figure out people's alignments without needing to kill them, if that's not what you like doing. I'm aware my shit's sometimes suboptimal but reading people based on their words and actions is the fun part of mafia and I'd rather lose playing that way than win by ignoring those things

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:25 am @Kylemii It was not a logical fallacy, it was optimal play. I resolve people based on things that are hard to fake first, and I don't throw away structural elements in favor of "but he's acting so town though". And I gave town a chance to win F3 after your death anyway. Mafia might be a social game but trusting in the human element is just begging to get outplayed and I've won so many scum games by abusing that. You should know that, because "the human element" was what lost you GOC when a strict adherence to logic and structuralism would have won it.

I'm not great at portraying tone so please understand while reading this that my tone is not frustrated just mostly curious about your views on mafia in general purely at a scientific level.

I mean first of all your play was proven wrong less than optimal in the last 24 hours. you voted martin immediately and without discussion or deliberation at the final 3 instead of spending the day reviewing the game or talking things out. I don't know what part of that was meant to be optimal. BoKnows just completely slid by. do you think he'd have been able to do that if we'd spent any part of the last week or even the last day phase discussing him? or anyone else? absolutely not.

and the thing you kept bringing up about me needing to be yeeted before f3 was really just a literal fallacy though. it was only correct *because* you said it and planned to act on it. the only reason I needed to be yeeted at all was cus you alone thought it was optimal despite thinking I was town so and were clearly town. the only other person who supported you on this thought was BoKnows, who was mafia, which means the only actual urgency involved was 100% in your control.

I want to be perfectly clear I'm not frustrated at all with you or your choices, I'm mostly a little amazed. I joke a lot about how the "logically correct" way to win mafia with the greatest % of success is to collectively get the group never read or make posts and vote in a predetermined order without wavering. You've actually kind of adapted that philosophy into a personal play style and I think that's legitimately pretty cool, but completely ignoring the human element of mafia is going to introduce easily avoidable mistakes, and treating the game as if it can and should be solved that way negates the purpose of playing *with* people instead of bots.

TL;DR mafia's a social game first and foremost.

BK did a good job, and definitely earned the win. <3 it's tough to go it alone like that and not crack

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:17 pm Alison-Kyle-BK --> Alison decides Kyle is town and votes BK
Martin-Kyle-BK --> Martin decides Kyle is town and votes BK
Mikey-Kyle-BK --> Mikey decides Kyle is town and votes BK (doesn't appear to me his inactivity was severe enough to presume a non-vote)

If any of these things is so unlikely that it is inconceivable, then that's not the fault of statistical probability -- it's the fault of erroneous town mindset(s).

Deciding a player must be eliminated given some set of inexact evidence (e.g. bad votes or associations in a near-mountainous game) is not precisely "optimal", at least in that it is less than the maximum possible potential of human deduction. It's a by-the-numbers approach, and in a final three that kind of mindset often needs to take a hike.

Granted, there may be/are probably some important contextual details I lack.

thank you.

alison treating my chop at f3 as a foregone conclusion because of it being something she wanted to do was a product of logical fallacy, and that's why it bothered me so much. she didn't seem to read me as mafia but insisted that she'd have to vote me at final 3 which is only the case in situations where she decides to do so. in any scenario where alison and i share the final 3 and alison decides to take the game seriously, that self-made crisis is immediately averted. mafia just isn't a logic puzzle. it's a social game, and being able to solve people without killing them is probably the most important skill there is.

and i know this is monday morning quarterback=ing but had i made it to f3 my vote would have gone to boknows like 90% of the time, in all scenarios except where the other person is martin in which cast it would have been more like 66%.

TS had the best record.
Martin was covered by Alison's trust tell, which is okay whatever.
Alison had a shitload of day 5 AtE that wouldn't make sense to put effort into faking if she were mafia.
Bo had nothing like any of that and just a nice record of votes against him

and now I [VOTE: kylemii] aubergine so she doesn't have time to respond with a 5 paragraph essay about how you can only play mafia with a TI 94 graphing calculator or better

and I'm sure you have an hour long essay on why that's illogical or something but that's not what this is about okay? Thanks for reading and understanding

alison I'm just pointing out you could have solved me way easier way earlier if you tried using you know.... Logic and reason based on past experiences with me etc etc. Just cus you have a specific PoE doesn't mean everyone has to glue their eyeballs to it, and it doesn't make them bad players for not agreeing with it.

controls the game for 4 days

calls me selfish

I will be self voting in all circumstances other than the potential for a martin or BoKnows yeet

and playstyle differences

And what about vibes, alison? does your logic account for vibes

like if I have to be alive at lylo at least make it fun

please just don't make me live through a day of alison talking about game theory instead of actual players

has alison done this before in the past

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:59 pm Anyway it's one minute from deadline so break the tie

1 hour

like it's especially not ts tho

the thing is i don't think it's alison or ts. I think it's probably within BoKnows or Martin.

is any part of that something you wouldn't do as a logicperson mafia member

ok maybe a little less briefly than that

alison can you outline how you helped in fingersplints yeeting quin, as briefly as you want to

ugh don't make me solve a tie, I was perfectly happy sacrificing my life for some bullshit and now I gotta maybe think about consequences????

ah nevermind I apologize. I shouldn't shade you for trying to solve people before they die after shading allison for not doing that.

in the niche case where I'm mafia this would be a concession and you'd be about to win, right?

what's the purpose? what are you doing?

what do you gain from being suspicious of me

babyyyy* as in like cool guy not romance

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:30 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:33 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:32 pm I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

not frustrated she's actually just right

Yeah but what about it being right makes it seem not scummy and/or towny to you

Not that I would say I am the same as Alison, but in one of my most recent scum-games I heavily relied on a mechanically-favorable position for me in terms of what I would do if I were town. I can't discuss it further though because it is on-going.

Being "right" and doing the "correct" decision doesn't necessitate alignment either way imo.

doesn't matter i'll be dead babe

don't you dare leave me alive at lylo

spending last few hours of the day very quickly driving and doing stunts to get my vaccine on time during my lunch break

just yeet me and figure it out from there good luck

good morning boknows

honestly if alison is mafia and wins this game after her hour long speech about how her brain is a perfect supercomputer or whatever i'm gonna quit mafia for like.... at least a month lol

i mean specifically right about the i should die thing, and the rest of everything she says is up to interpretation

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:32 pm I guess I have to think about this more. Idk why Kyle is accepting his deletion once again with frustration. Or something. I gotta think about this more.

[VOTE: novote] aubergine

I'll be here ~3 hours before EoD if I'm not here sooner. Might chop kyle even if I dislike it, but I bet Esooa is probably scum-reading me from beyond the grave since I just said that.

not frustrated she's actually just right

i have thoughts, but as per alison's request i don't think i'll share them. i think the game is solvable though

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

just yeet me today so alison can singlehandedly solve human behavior using Logic and Reason like she said she would

idk, alison talked me out of doing isos, she's technically correct

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:13 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:05 pm anyways it's probably martin

???

I didn't see any progression on this, unless I'm being blind.

no progression, idk it' s just a vibe

anyways it's probably martin

like that whole post where you responded to my post that i'd have killed you with a "well actually what you would have done is kill these three people in this order and end the game with either one of these two permutations of players for the best chance at winning" like what am i supposed to do with that? what is anyone supposed to do with that

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:51 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:37 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:33 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:31 pm i think that's not true, but it doesn't seem like you're looking for alternative viewpoints

I have presented an argument why that is true, with specific reasoning.

If you want me to believe your theories about how to play mafia, I suggest you show why my reasoning is logically flawed.

no i don't think i'll do that, i don't particularly care what you believe

just try to chill out about it and understand that your beliefs are just beliefs

You need to understand that if I present a logical argument why I am correct and your counter argument is "that's just, like, your opinion man" you don't get to complain that I'm closed-minded for not seeing it your way, especially when you have no other option but to try to push the town off following the POE if you are scum.

for the most part every logical argument you try to direct towards me, in actually every game we've played together, has assumed that i think about and view the game as some sort of cookie cutter mafia player would. so there's not much to say other than that, to be fair

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:49 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:46 pm like for one thing, in your perfect world where everyone stops posting while PoE gets resolved, that leaves very few posts to analyze afterwards. townies don't get a legacy. you end up at lylo with 2 other people's opinions and you can only really trust your own, rather than being able to review other people's opinions and see if they'll have noticed something you didn't etc etc etc.

but more importantly, it's overly mechanical and just frankly not really an interesting way to play mafia.

I'm not blocking you from posting. Feel free to do whatever you want and leave a legacy. If you're town and we're in F3 I'm gonna read it, because I always read everything during F3s.

I understand that you believe it is overly mechanical and an uninteresting way to play mafia. However, I think it's the best way to play mafia, so that's the way I'm going to play it. If I wanted dynamic, interesting games where anything could happen, I'd play Town of Salem.

and that's cool and i respect that, but i will never play like that again and i hope in time you will learn how to read and react to me as an individual player with that in mind in the future. mechanical robot lizard brain kyle died in 2011