The Syndicate

This game is baffling to me.

Boo, are you saying I haven't explained the safe/radar thing ot my Snowman vote?

Playing it safe means not ruffling feathers of case makers. (And in Zomb's situation playing her baddie role safely by elminating her husband incase he ever got onto her.)
Flying under the radar means not expressing opinions and trying to go unnoticed.

Under the radar players can play it safe, but playing it safe doesn't mean being under the radar.

Anyway, you're clearly trying to box me and twist my words so whatever. If you're not a baddie, don't act this way. Conclusions come after discussions, not before.

Turnip Head wrote:

zeek wrote:I'm going to try to look at DP tomorrow. I find it strangle boo didn't include him, considering I have about double his posts. I'm also suspicious of boo because of his "questioning" techniques that involve zero questions.

I'm still wary of FZ. She sounded genuine in her defence but I can't help feeling there is a reason Epi is going after her so hard.

What do you think of Matahari?

I haven't seen that much I find suspicious of her. Boom made some interesting points but I don't think it's enough to vote on right now. Who do you suspect?

That is complete and utter nonsense, boo. Yeah, I said I didn't want to rehash my Snowman vote AGAIN, but as you can see I did when TH mentioned it again. I've given a simple answer to a simple question back then: I voted Snowman because of the "team" terminology. Is that difficult to read? Just because it's not the best reason to vote for somebody it doesn't mean I haven't answered his concerns as best I can.

Now respond to how easily and without merit you put a commentary to my game play based completely on WIFOM and assumptions about the usage of my free time.

I just looked anyway, not much from DP except a lot of :P

I'm going to try to look at DP tomorrow. I find it strangle boo didn't include him, considering I have about double his posts. I'm also suspicious of boo because of his "questioning" techniques that involve zero questions.

I'm still wary of FZ. She sounded genuine in her defence but I can't help feeling there is a reason Epi is going after her so hard.

Turnip Head wrote:Where are you looking for today's vote, Zeek?

I'll have to wait for a bandwagon to jump on. Maybe <insert name here>, because I think <generic statement of baddie behaviour>.

There you go again making assumptions about my ability to post. I have a day off today, that's why I can post. If I didn't, I'd get a load of shit about avoiding suspicion. So don't pretend otherwise.

And more assumptions about me. Prove anything you're saying about me bandwagoning, or why I vote the way I have. You can't, because you're making a commentary on my gameplay based on stupid ideas.

Honestly, you said the same bullcrap to bea and look how that turned out. This is exactly lose-lose for me, with you. You've made up your mind, don't pretend otherwise.

What questions? You don't ask questions. I've looked back at your posts and there's a distinct lack of questions. You're not asking why I did this or that, you're saying I think you did this because of that. How can I convince you you're wrong when you've provided the plot details and allowed your ignorant fervour to determine my answers?

Epignosis wrote:zeek, why didn't you vote for FZ.?

Because that's not how you spell boo.

I respond to you and all you have is further pre-answered questions and twists on my words.

RIP Bea Pretty sure you were on the level.

@boo

I am here early and late. You post early or late in my British day and I'm likely to be online. I'm not just popping up to defend myself, nor do I "make up" reasons to vote for people. How about asking some fucking questions instead of making faulty conclusions?

It's getting pretty clear to me you're trying to put me in an unwinnable situation. I own my actions and explain them and I'm avoiding accountability. I wait for suspects to emerge because of lack of time and I'm hanging back and being blendy, even though you said you like to do the same. I respond to you and all you have is further questions and twists on my words. All you have is WIFOM and it's beginning to grate. I'll take criticism but not manipulation.

But that's cool, I'd rather you vote for me than chat more of this utter shit.

Turnip Head wrote:Why does it matter that it was your first vote? It could have been your hundredth vote and you'd still be getting criticism from me for the justification you used.

And no, you shouldn't just do whatever is easiest to avoid suspicion/criticism. That's something only a baddie would care about. I'm sure you know that though.

It matters because there wasn't much to go on, I had no gut or reads really. My justification? I said even then it wasn't much, but it's what had my eye and I don't see why I'm being beat over the head with it. It's hilarious coming from you as well. All your early votes, all your flip-flopping and trolling. Save your lecture, shinigami.

Turnip Head wrote:However, your more specific thoughts regarding Zeek are more compelling to me, I like the work you did there. His vote for Snowman still feels out of place, and it appears that Zeek himself is willing to admit that, though he says he doesn't want to talk about it anymore. Could be something there.

What more is there to say about it? I looked for something to sway me toward a candidate and that post I referenced struck me as odd wording. I could have just reiterated a point made by somebody else and voted any player, but I didn't. I voted for what pinged me most. By the looks of it I should have just done whatever was easiest cause I'm getting criticism still for my first vote.

As for the Kira behavioural study, I changed my thoughts on that days ago. The suspicions fly around so fast and furiously in this game that there would be no point for the to play a safe game because anybody could be lynched any day. There's a middle ground of non-aggressive, at the forefront player that is the best best.

Okay boo, what you're essentially doing right now is trying your upmost to try and make me talk myself in a corner. I've said all there is to say about my Snowman vote and butted heads with TH enough for you to reread that which you already have. It is explained as much as it can be. I can either be honest and OWN that I didn't have good reasons, or lie to you and say I did. I've already said I didn't.

I am compleyely accountable for my actions, lynch me for them if you want, but how can I be accountable for them if I don't give you the reasons why I've done things? My work life is hectic at the moment and I don't have the time to be invested in this game. Does that mean I've made poor reasoning? YES. So by saying that I'm avoiding responsibility, but if I'm not honest I'm lying which means I'd have to pull a load of bullshit out of thin air and then have to be accountable for that. I'll choose honesty. Lynch me and you won't be losing the biggest contribution to the game for sure, but you'll still be losing a detective.

Also boo, your last paragraph really doesn't make any sense to me.

You think because we agree on things that's suspicious, but then plenty of people disagree with us, so how is that a baddie thing? And why would I say what to look for in a baddie and then intentionally adopt those characteristics? It's upsetting you think I'd be that stupid.

I haven't been the most talkative this game but that's due to RL. Anyone whose played with me before can tell you I'm a high poster when I have the time, but a lot of weird shit has happened this game and I haven't had the time to investigate all the possibilities I want to.

I'm not going over my Snowman vote again. It was my first day in the game and it's far more difficult to have anything to go on when you haven't been emotionally invested reading posts (as I hadn't following the game before replacing in). Have I had some poor reasons for voting the way I did? Yes. Have I lynched a detective? No. I haven't lynched a Kira either, but nobody has.

As for Zomba, I think she was playing it safe but that's a matter of opinion. Am I playing it safe? Damn right I am. I will own everything I've said and done in this game but the truth is I just haven't had the time to get into it properly. When I do, you'll see me posting a lot and discussing more, but I've had to play it safe. By all means, twist those words however you want but do not think for a second I've been intentionally flying under the radar. I've given my opinions but my opinions are few because I don't have a proper handle on the game. It's that simple and sad.

Non-aggressive players aren't ALL playing it safe or flying low, and just because you can't see where I draw the line it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I would like to invite L to investigate me and save everyone the trouble of debating my terminology in the future

Gonna go ahead and vote MM. I don't always have the best feelings toward some of his posts and I think out of the three with votes right now I'd rather vote for him. bea I'm not voting for and FZ - I dunno. Guess I'm more convinced by her since I almost voted her last time. Anyway, MM it is.

For the record, I won't be voting bea today.

Why can't I ever come back and normal stuff has happened?

bea, I really wished you hadn't voted for yourself as I really don't consider that detective behaviour - I consider it secret win condition behaviour - and I really didn't have you high on my suspiciometer. There's a good chance you'll be lynched as well, given how polarizing ballsy moves like that can be.

I'm most likely just going to wait and see which people look like they'll be lynched, and see who I want to vote from them. I don't have time to review posts at length atm, nor can I address every player, so that's unfortunately how I'm going to have to play it today.

RIP Russ

Another busy weekend but I'll be around properly tomorrow night to join in discussion. Sorry, work is proper getting in the way of my life atm

thellama73 wrote:I agree with your assessment thta Kira was not paying that much attention. FZ telegraphed pretty hard that she had not been paying attention to the roles. I am curious as to why you singled out Black Rock, Bass, DP and Spacedaisy as not paying attention, but left out other obvious candidates like Matahari, Zeek, and Juliets.

Sorry, just because I'm not around and automatically accusing someone at daybreak, that means I'm not paying attention?

Quite frankly, there seems to be a new candidate or two brought up immediately at the start of each new day. I'm getting the feeling we're being led.

Turnip Head wrote:Made, I would like to know why you randomly decided to read Bass to see if anything was there when nobody's brought up Bass before. That seemed... random. Is it because you knew it'd be a quick read?

He mentioned Bass earlier, about him saying he's bad at case building.

I'm going to go ahead and vote Made. Going to bed now.

Made wrote:

zeek wrote: This is why I'm struggling to make a decision here. I do feel you've been open and frustrated, but some of your sentiments have seemed a bit hollow. I'm comfortably leaning Made given your responses. Especially as he's suddenly not so busy to post now his head is on the block.

It's called not having your priorities in order. Anyways, gonna go back and read bass to see if i can find anything there, if i don't i'm very likely to vote bea at this point.

Do you really think either of them is likely to be lynched today?

linki - I know, and he's went from Russ to Bass/bea now.

Turnip Head wrote:

Made wrote:Oh just thought of a good argument for me just being busy, and not blendy: would a not busy Mqde miss a vote on purpose in an MP game?

I'm not disputing you've been busy, I'm sure that's true. But you said a baddie Made would be headbutting someone in the thread to appear like you're contributing. What if baddie Made hasn't had time to do that? What would baddie Made look like then?

I'm disputing he's been busy. He's not right now

FZ. wrote:And I think I'm open and let people see me for what I am...and then it appears I get accused for it. I admitted the first day (after not voting), that I would have voted for someone, but had no idea who I would have voted for. People thought that was a baddie reaction, but it was a sincere one. Do you think I can't just find something on someone and then say that's the person I would vote for? I can, and it's easy. When I'm a civ, I struggle more because I don't want to make mistakes that will hurt the civvies.

This is why I'm struggling to make a decision here. I do feel you've been open and frustrated, but some of your sentiments have seemed a bit hollow. I'm comfortably leaning Made given your responses. Especially as he's suddenly not so busy to post now his head is on the block.

thellama73 wrote:

FZ. wrote: You're a man. You just like to consider yourself as a going with facts and logic. :P Maybe you are and that's why you're messing up right now, because you think all the reasons you brought up on me are real evidence for baddie tells when in fact, they are not

Sexist.

All women spent way too much time being sexist, and not enough on housework

When has Made been civ?

FZ. wrote:linki: Sorry Zeek, I didn't mean to offend you or throw things back at you. I'm frustrated, and I'm trying to show you that "reads" are basically gut, not to throw suspicion at you. For example, my gut tells me that a baddie, especially one that is often engaged in the game and expected to be, would try harder to appear like that when a civvie too, so I can't just go and vote Made, even if people read him as a posting something that on surface level appears scummy. In that sense, I asked what have you done that makes you a civ.

I don't think gut votes are the same as read votes. Gut votes are pretty intangible and to say they're the same devalues reading people imo. I play a pretty open game and I try to respond to every post that questions or has a question for me, that way people can get a decent read on me and try to see that I'm good. I'm pretty much the Anti-Made, I've had one and a half bad roles ever. That's what I do to show I'm civ

A lot fo baddies don't try very hard to appear civ. I think Made could be trying to be more under the radar this game, given he's lynched so often. Of course, this could be flawed, circular logic.

Made wrote:I'm alright thanks for asking! Anyways, it's not between me and you just yet. If we both decided to put our votes on Russ, we could probably get him lynched without much effort, i mean what 3-2 right now? it's early enough to make a 3rd option.

You never answered FZ's question. Are you good?

FZ. wrote:Nothing makes me a civ. What makes you a civ? Have you done something that is supposed to tell us you are? Because I haven't seen it yet. Basically, no matter how much people say otherwise, it all boils down to gut feelings. We try our best to "build a case", but as been the case with BWT (and I still think what he did with Russ seemed like something a civ wouldn't do, but I guess I am wrong), cases are only sometimes true. Still, it's all we've got. I think no matter what EPi and llama are, Epi specifically, built a case on me the best way possible. Too bad it's wrong, but I can't fault him. He's playing the game.

Really?! I just comment on how you aren't slandering other potential lynchees and you go and say that? Listen, my role makes me civ. You're not convincing me yours does you. People vote on gut all the time but reads what I prefer to use. The things you're saying and how you're saying them are not convincing me you're civ. That's my read. The things you weren't saying, like Made and bea are bad, were. But, jeez, don't throw things back in people's faces when they reconsider.

Turnip Head wrote:

zeek wrote:I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P

But you said that Made is usually dead by now if he's bad. So where could a civvie Made possibly fall on this dead-or-alive spectrum in your mind? Seems like a bit of a contradiction, doesn't it?

Put me down on record saying civs will be inconsistent and contradictory. Not that I approve of it or that they SHOULD be, but that it happens as a nature of not being as careful with your words when you're a civ.

i also said this:

zeek wrote:I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

So no contradiction. Cute though. I guess I have a natural suspicion of him, as he is always bad, but on the off chance I did ever play with civvie Made I do think the baddies might leave him alone. He's always eventually lynched because he changes up his game. But then, he changes it up because he's always bad! So I have no idea. He says odd things sometimes and I don't know whether my natural suspicion of him interferes with a clear read.

The fact FZ isn't trying to push another candidate here is making me reconsider. I'd try to discredit other potential lynchees in her position, and I'd definitely expect it from baddie in that situation. So, I guess I could go for Made.

FZ. wrote:
In that first post, I said that contradictions are fine by me. I even defended llama when Epi made a case on his contradictions (or was it Boo who made it. I can't remember). Heck, I'm going to find that post. Because if we're going to vote based on contradictions, there's going to be a long line.

Wait for it

Sorry, I was skimming but thats not the impression I was getting. Anyway, you can say there's a long line but clearly not as glaring as the contradictions raised. Saying stuff like civs can be contradictory doesn't feel genuine. I don't agree that it's fine for them to be but even if it was, it doesn't make you a civ.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Yeah, I think you might be right. Made doesn't appear dead to me either.

I'm suspicious of him because he's alive, then :P He's made some strange statements as well, like the one Boom quoted, which strikes me as the experimental baddie Made typically is.

I don't like how quiet Made has been and I'm suspicious that he's still alive tbqh. Usually he's dead by now and bad. Maybe that should be a relief, I dunno. I'd like to hear more from him in the coming days.

bea I don't know what to think. There's been a few things that make me wonder but I feel like I'm seeing her civ game.

As for FZ, catching up I felt sincerity responding to Epi, but she completely lost me after the initial long retort. I disagree it's easier to build cases against civs and I'm also having trouble believing her. Notably, after she went from defending herself to admitting she's been contradicting herself and saying civs are allowed to do so. Isn't that defeating the point of mafia? What else can we lynch people for if not the things they say?

I could also see myself voting for Made. I'm always wary of him because he's always bad, but there have been a lot of good points raised about him as well. I'm not commited to voting that way yet. I want to hear from him.

Re: The percentages. Guessing, as I haven't done the match, but they're probably 1 in however-many-players-there-are-left. I think unless it's high or like Elo states they're not Kira because they are definitely a sympathizer, I don't think we should give them any thought. Dunno though, thoughts?

Turnip Head wrote:Put me down as being in favor of a Made lynch as well That cat's hiding something.

Please stop voting so early. I'm begging you. I can't take you seriously when you vote one way and then say this kind of thing.

Good result, especially as we know we can trust L Also good to know there isn't another Death Note out there.

Russtifinko wrote:

zeek wrote:DH - Little things really. Like your last comment on L's post being poorly done. I could see that coming from an annoyed baddie. Just little things, not enough for me to vote for you in the future.

TH - Epi has equally worried me and made sense to me. Whatever role he has I'd be shocked if it's Kira. Same with MM tbh, I find myself agreeing with him more often than not however.

So you're already committed to never voting DH?? That's weird.

You enlargened the wrong part. Fixed it for you. Those little things aren't enough for my to vote for him in the future, meaning after today - because I've voted Elo. Pretty meaningless if I said they're not enough to vote for him now.

Also, I don't understand why TH being lynched has caused another Death Note

Err, yeah, Elo... you should try harder to look civ!

Happy with my vote, night guys

I agree, but I got a GoC flashback when I read that post.

linki - You're trying to vote L?

DH - Little things really. Like your last comment on L's post being poorly done. I could see that coming from an annoyed baddie. Just little things, not enough for me to vote for you in the future.

TH - Epi has equally worried me and made sense to me. Whatever role he has I'd be shocked if it's Kira. Same with MM tbh, I find myself agreeing with him more often than not however.

DH is cricking my brow more than Boom tbh.

Elohcin wrote:@ zeek, so I need to get better at looking CIV all the time then instead of being unreadable.

Well being unreadable can have its charms, even looking too civ seem suspect!

Elohcin wrote:Does this mean my mafia playing has gotten better then? I guess so

It means I still can't read you! Which is good if you're bad :P

I've briefly looked back at Elo and found nothing that really makes me comfortable or suspicious with her, but that is exactly how I've felt every game with her so

With that said, I'm going to vote for her. We have to trust L and this is the only way to make sure we can.

linki - well done

RIP Ace Shame we didn't play together again for long!

I think what DH is saying makes a lot of sense but it's all conjecture at the moment and I don't think it helps us decide who to lynch. And the more I think about it there more I think we have to lynch Elo to find out if L's messages are truthful.

Caught up and, damn, Elo is in a tight spot here. I'm personally going to take L's posts firmly onboard because he is the only confirmed civ voice in this game. There could easily be secrets that could alter a message or something though, that would just be speculating.

Epignosis wrote:However, while L may be the best detective in the world, the person playing as L is not. Given the host's position on outing, I question info dumped into the thread by proxy of the host.

I agree with this. This latest L post is a complete departure from the previous ones and that is worrying to me. However, it doesn't mean I'm dicounting it, as if L were to find a Kira sympathizer after two fruitless investigations it would stand out.

All-in-all, I'd probably lean voting Elo but only slighly. A bit more discussion and I could vote elsewhere if there's enough doubt.

As for he-who-shall-not-be-quoted:

I've had a really shitty day, I'm tired and unhappy. There's like 10 pages I haven't read properly and it seems there has been quite a bit of voting in my absence. I love this game but sometimes you have to take care of yourself, so I won't be back tonight to catchup.

I'm voting TurnipHead because he's an early-voting, flip-flopper whose play does not resemble any I have seen in the games I have played with him (and he's been civ in each one). Stop voting early and then say you'd be done with lynching someone else.

1) ...that ~~~ ~~~~ Snowman ~~~~ the game ~~~ a~~~ the existence of secret win conditions. (MQRXAK)

existence of

excluding?

Not secret Missing an e