The Syndicate

It's 1, right?

Matahari wrote:
Bass_the_Clever wrote:Mata what are your thoughts on Rico?
Currently, my thoughts on him are the same as everyone else, yourself included, TH and MM excluded. I think everyone is potentially bad, because someone is and I'm not sure who. I have trusted everyone at certain points during the game, and mistrusted everyone as well.

And for now, I'm going to pipe down because you guys have made your minds up about me, so you need to concentrate on finding Kira for the next lynch.

TH and MM excluded why?

Matahari wrote:DH - The thanks Ukita was a half-joke, half-question. I figured some ppl might jump on it and try to use it against me, and other ppl would just laugh because they didn't it, either way I might learn something from the reactions. I mean, seriously, did you think I did that so that Ukita would say, "No, I didn't!"

Ricochet - do you really think everything has been revealed? Was it ever revealed that no prizes were awarded from the day 0 poll? Things happen in games all the time that can't be discussed in the thread.

I think that everything that has been revealed is on the front page and everything that hasn't been revealed, apart from secret win conditions, is also on the front page. I am not aware in my gaming so far of powers/abilities that are handed in private. I am not aware of prizes that could suit an "orchestration" of the sort you imply (and I have won myself a few prizes in Film). So yes, I can't make sense at all of your "things happen" implications.

Mata, I have absolutely no idea what "survival orchestration" that you are keen to reference could have been done , judging by the roles revealed so far, except for the lynch pardon and you dropped that one yourself. Especially if you're calling on baddie shenanigans, since all their abilities, apart for Rem, have been revealed. And that angle, frankly, isn't good at all for your defense.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:"Thanks Ukita for stopping this lynch, whichever one of us it was"

12 hours later

"I don't know why I wasn't lynched, this is a set-up"

Also, "lynch me again to prove I will die". Yet right now, it is a fact that none of the unlynchable roles can be lynched the subsequent Day.

bad bad bad
Unless TH is Misa.

But no, I don't think that is the case.

Ah, that's true, but I meant since Mata is an unlynchable role, she can't be lynched the subsequent Day anyhow, even if she's Misa.

"Thanks Ukita for stopping this lynch, whichever one of us it was"

12 hours later

"I don't know why I wasn't lynched, this is a set-up"

Also, "lynch me again to prove I will die". Yet right now, it is a fact that none of the unlynchable roles can be lynched the subsequent Day.

bad bad bad

I agree. I think each of their individual reactions to the lynch is telling.

TH - cocky, but not exactly laughing in our faces

Turnip Head wrote:

but should we consider that just a meme reaction, his following reaction is

Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Well, that's interesting. Repeat for Shinigami, or is he Higuchi or a currently unlynchable detective?
Lynch him again after a few Day phases. If he's Higuchi, and he has a death note, he'll die. If he's Higuchi and does not have a death note, nothing will happen. If he's Shinigami, then he'll be outed.
This seems like a fair plan. Gives me some time to try and prove I'm not a baddie

MM - cocky overload. "Haha silly humans"

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm getting lynched? Huh. How about that.

Meta - evasive maneuvers

Matahari wrote:I just want to say thank you to Ukita. I'm not sure which of us you were trying to pardon, but I'll take it

FWIW, I also think Mata's Ukita reasoning is BS. Ukita would not only have to be very convinced Mata is a detective (or at least that lynching her is not the right option), but also put his neck on the line, because there's a 50-50 chance he'll die instead.

---

Also, to conclude my early-morning/long-breakfast/mafia-instead-of-studying fervent posting for now, this is how my list of unlynchables is shaping up right now. I want to stress that I personally define as unlynchable any player whose first lynch would, in the current situation, unconditionally fail, because of the roles and lynch conditions they have. I am also including here the two players which in theory can be lynched, but who under the lynch pressure might make themselves unlynchable (and thus make their lynch fail), simply because of how predictable that scenario is generally regarded to be.

1. TH was not lynched.
2. MM was not lynched.
3. Mata was not lynched. (pending confirmation from MP that she was lynched yesterday)
4. ...... was not lynched.
5. ...... was not lynched.
6. ...... was not lynched.
7. ...... was not lynched.
8. ...... was not lynched.
9. ...... was not lynched, but ...... died instead.

The only thing I can make of this is that TH, MM and Mata are not the 9th player, because if they were, their lynch would have had a consequence, yet it didn't.

Statistically, all three of them could be Shinigamis.
Statistically, all three of them could be Kiras.
Statistically, one of them cannot be a Detective.

You can add FZ. to this list, given her claims, with the alignment you personally find most likely.

Feel free to make any corrections you find necessary.

---

In what can only be described as a very ironic post-scriptum, considering all I've posted this morning, I would actually attempt to limit my time here to the absolute minimum until I pass my IELTS test on Saturday morning. That's N8 and the first day of D9. Thanks for understanding.

As for TH's idea that me and Mata are Misa/Rem, two things:

1) Mata questions you on the baddies having BTSC starting Night 5. According to you now, that was a "completely disingenuous" question. I point out to her Misa's BTSC conditions. She reacts, I presume, as if this is news to her. She reacts, I suspect, as if I'm also finding her to be disingenuous with her question. But if I and Mata are Misa/Rem and have BTSC, we would have this conversation in the open thread (instead of clarifying things in BTSC) because?

2) The premise of flushing out Misa based on her DN relinquish being picked on by L. I would really like to know your opinion of this, because you usually have read the roles and secrets better than me, but here are the facts known

L is made aware any time a Death Note changes hands from one killer to another.

At any time, Light may choose to forfeit ownership of the Death Note. If he does so, Higuchi receives the Death Note. Under certain circumstances, Light may regain the Death Note. After regaining it, he may subsequently pass it on to Mikami at any time, but he cannot regain the Death Note again unless Mikami is killed.

At any time, Misa may forfeit ownership of her Death Note.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Boomslang wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
The Sockface Death Note Mafia Trivia Game Show
Question 8:
Who receives the Death Note if Misa, Higuchi, or Mikami are lynched and currently possess it?
Assuming that I can answer after missing the other question, I'm guessing Light?
Correct.

You may not answer any more questions. A new question is forthcoming.

So my question is this: Since Misa relinquishing her DN before getting lynched or in order to avoid getting lynched has no further revealed consequences in regards to her DN passing on to (or being received by) someone else, do you think L will nevertheless receive info that she has relinquished it?

Now, in reply to TH:

Oh dear. Suspected by omitting, again. This looks like it's gonna be the death of me this game. :P

So yeah, my comment about Mata in my post to FZ. was purely hindsight-ish. Had I said the same thing ("I would support a vote for Made as well, but I'm still drawn in more by FZ.) within the time frame of the lynch, I probably wouldn't get the eyeball as much right now. This can't make any difference now, I'm aware of that, but I did intend to start a post by saying that on at least one occasion - when I found out I have 40 more minutes to vote, I wanted to make a post in which incline to go with FZ. (over Mata, obviously) based on Russ' "third option" possibility. But then I noticed FZ. was online and changed my post to questioning her directly about this thing. I also spent the last hours yesterday re-reading Mata, but again, this is post-factum and pointless now.

The fact is that I'm still truthful about the "drawn in more by FZ." part. Given the amount of new rebuttals her case is going through and the amount of timing I personally have throughout a day or a full Day phase in order to deliberate (hint: I am still spending way more time playing Mafia that I normally should), it doesn't make it easy for me to be thorough in addressing all the other cases or issue put forth.

I will now point out, even at the risk of making myself even more suspicious for the same "omission clause", how that doesn't limit just to Mata (although I acknowledge Mata became part of the main polarizing lynch, together with FZ., compared to all the others):

Cases I addressed or cases/suspicions I made/had himself on D8

Bass
Black Rock / Spacedaisy (but having issues more with Black Rock)
FZ.

D8 cases/issues I failed to address

Matahari, obviously, but also

Boomslang (case made by boo)
DP (case made by boo D7)
zeek (case made by boo D7, rebuttals on D8; also read on him made by FZ D8)
boo (either judging the cases he made or addressing what DH brought up about him)
The TH - MM distancing tactic (DH brought up)
juliets (in case DH and FZ. bringing her up counts)
Epig & Llama's late push for FZ. (in case Boomslang saying he got bad vibes from it counts)

So that's a lot to get blamed for as wilfully ignorant, from multiple sides.

---

Now, as for the mutual slim interaction between Matahari and me accusation, I would also like to analyse, based solely on your criteria, how things stand overall:

1. "not react to any case made against Matahari, not even a passing acknowledgment of any cases or points against Mata." (I'm going to count this only for D8, btw)

Bass
Black Rock (she also gave a post-factum opinion on it, mind you)
Boo (voted FZ)
MM (only a D7 verdict that Mata should be lynched the next Day. Voted Bass!)
me

I would also mention DP gave a bandwagon vote for Mata, but the only thing that can possibly count as addressing to her case on D8 is that she couldn't have made or be familiar with the bea kill photo. He did address her D7. At this point, I would mention that his vote for MM was pretty bandwagon, too

2. "no mentions of Matahari until today" (let's set the frequency here to "very little", ie close to my levels of interaction with her)

Bass
Black Rock (only D4 in reply to bea's shortlist for possible Kiras)
Boo (maybe marginally addressing a theory of hers about Russ being insanified, D1)
me
Zeek (nothing on her until D8, first didn't see case in her, then suddenly saw a few good points, nevertheless voted fz.)

3. "not mention Ricochet's name or interact with him" (let's set again the frequency here to "very little", ie close to Matahari's levels of interaction with me)

Bass
Black Rock (only a D5 rebuttal to a question of mine)
Boomslang (only agreed with me on D2 about my views on Russ and TH (?); also agreed today with DH's and my issues with bass' reply to boo)
Boo (replied to my question to him on bea's kill D8, picked up an idea of mine for his read on llama D2, replied to me on his input on Snowman's play D2, questions my use of OT green N1)
DH (civ read of me D1, suspicions on Epig for his accusations on me D0/D1, general interaction with me only on matters of timing of kills, secrets, puzzles theories)
DP (Rebuttal to my accusation of his voting D1)
MM (Nothing outside puzzle making)
Spacedaisy (reply to me D5 on whether MP would allow info dumping via L's message, reply to me D3 on Higuchi, Yotsuba)
Zeek (nil)

I'm sorry if any other mentions slipped through in my searches. I usually searched each player's bulk of posts for the either "Mata/Matahari" or "Rico/Ricochet".

Of course, I do not mean to imply that everyone listed is suspicious for this, only that the pool of players who fit your criterias is, yet again, larger than you narrow it.

First, a question for the Host

Do you indicate in your failed lynch posts precisely which player was lynched or is the "Sockface writes player X's name in the Lynch Note" flavour?

FZ. wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Does anyone else find Bass's answer to my question to be complete bullshit.
Yes

Yep.

seriously off to bed now

FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
linki: I still don't get the difference between Mello finding Sidoh, and the opposite in terms of consequences.
I don't know how to explain better than that.
If they gain BTSC Mello can become the civ ninja, right? If Sidoh finds the note before, it doesn't apply?
"If he gains BTSC with Sidoh and Sidoh has not yet found his Death Note, Mello searches every night to help him find it. Assuming Mello and Sidoh share BTSC, once Sidoh has his Death Note, Mello becomes a civ ninja, able to kill a player every night or abstain if he wishes. If he kills the active Kira this way, the game will end and he wins with his fellow Detectives."

Read this and let me know if it's still unclear.
I've read it. Maybe it's the fact that it's almost 2 am here, but it still doesn't answer what happens if he finds the DN before the BTSC. Or is it the same thing? Is my question that hard to understand?
Mello can't find the DN before the BTSC before he the one searching for it. Sidoh is!
I get that, duh. I mean if SIdoh finds the DN before the BTSC, does it change anything? Do they both kill or only Mello when they have BTSC? What I'm trying to figure out is, do we need to fear Sidoh or not?

Unless there is something not yet revealed, i doubt Sidoh would kill on his own.

Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
linki: I still don't get the difference between Mello finding Sidoh, and the opposite in terms of consequences.
I don't know how to explain better than that.
If they gain BTSC Mello can become the civ ninja, right? If Sidoh finds the note before, it doesn't apply?
"If he gains BTSC with Sidoh and Sidoh has not yet found his Death Note, Mello searches every night to help him find it. Assuming Mello and Sidoh share BTSC, once Sidoh has his Death Note, Mello becomes a civ ninja, able to kill a player every night or abstain if he wishes. If he kills the active Kira this way, the game will end and he wins with his fellow Detectives."

Read this and let me know if it's still unclear.
I've read it. Maybe it's the fact that it's almost 2 am here, but it still doesn't answer what happens if he finds the DN before the BTSC. Or is it the same thing? Is my question that hard to understand?
Mello can't find the DN before the BTSC before he the one searching for it. Sidoh is!

I meant Mello isn't searching*

FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
linki: I still don't get the difference between Mello finding Sidoh, and the opposite in terms of consequences.
I don't know how to explain better than that.
If they gain BTSC Mello can become the civ ninja, right? If Sidoh finds the note before, it doesn't apply?
"If he gains BTSC with Sidoh and Sidoh has not yet found his Death Note, Mello searches every night to help him find it. Assuming Mello and Sidoh share BTSC, once Sidoh has his Death Note, Mello becomes a civ ninja, able to kill a player every night or abstain if he wishes. If he kills the active Kira this way, the game will end and he wins with his fellow Detectives."

Read this and let me know if it's still unclear.
I've read it. Maybe it's the fact that it's almost 2 am here, but it still doesn't answer what happens if he finds the DN before the BTSC. Or is it the same thing? Is my question that hard to understand?

Mello can't find the DN before the BTSC before he the one searching for it. Sidoh is!

MovingPictures07 wrote:Holy hell, I just hit 9,000 posts.

You've probably met your secret win condition as host of this game.

Well, good luck with the answer and any further questions, guys, I'm off to sleep.

Bass_the_Clever wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Bass_the_Clever wrote:
FZ. wrote:If anyone wants me to answer this, let me know, because I want to go to sleep.

Bass, why did you vote for TH?
Because he was my top suspect yesterday and I didn't have time to catch up on the thread today.
But it didn't seem like he was lynchable. Why waste a vote?
So if someone survives one lynch that means they will survive every lynch after that?

Uh no. The Shinigamis probably will survive every lynch (but they'll be outed). Near and Mello and Higuchi might still survive a second one, if their conditions to become lynchable are not met. (L dead, Higuchi owning a DN, respectively). Misa can be lynched after three Days. Light has not yet become unlynchable since he hasn't given up DN ownership.

This is assuming you're not caught up fully with the role reveals.

FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
linki: I still don't get the difference between Mello finding Sidoh, and the opposite in terms of consequences.
I don't know how to explain better than that.
If they gain BTSC Mello can become the civ ninja, right? If Sidoh finds the note before, it doesn't apply?

"If he gains BTSC with Sidoh and Sidoh has not yet found his Death Note, Mello searches every night to help him find it. Assuming Mello and Sidoh share BTSC, once Sidoh has his Death Note, Mello becomes a civ ninja, able to kill a player every night or abstain if he wishes. If he kills the active Kira this way, the game will end and he wins with his fellow Detectives."

Read this and let me know if it's still unclear.

DharmaHelper wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:7 Yotsuba + 7 Sympathizers + 1 Sidoh = 15.

Don't call it fact, but that is my best guess.
The Kira win conditions aren't secret though.

7 Yotsuba +1 Snowman +1 Sidoh.

We haven't heard about Takada, but Snowman is actually indicative the Sympathizers might have individual win conditions. How Light can win, even if caught by Near, now that Matsuda is dead, is still not revealed, for instance.

That's a really hard one. I wonder if we shouldn't count everyone except the detectives (ninja'd by MM). Then again, some of the detectives might have as well (L, Near and Mello come to mind right away).

FZ. wrote:
linki: I still don't get the difference between Mello finding Sidoh, and the opposite in terms of consequences.

I don't know how to explain better than that.

Cheers, MM.

Epignosis wrote:Someone please say "Six."

Ricochet wrote:
FZ. wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Hey guys I have a question. Can we please lynch FZ tomorrow? I find it suspicious she escapes lynches day after day after day.
Sure, I'll join you if you're so desperate. I'm not enjoying playing with you either :P

Rico, what's the difference?
Sidoh gets in contact with Mello first. Didn't find DN yet. Mello joins him in searching for his DN.
Sidoh finds Death Note first. Gets in contact with Mello second. Mello gets to use the DN (for the purpose of "good").

It's literally one sentence ahead of the one you highlighted.

FZ. wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Hey guys I have a question. Can we please lynch FZ tomorrow? I find it suspicious she escapes lynches day after day after day.
Sure, I'll join you if you're so desperate. I'm not enjoying playing with you either :P

Rico, what's the difference?

Sidoh gets in contact with Mello first. Didn't find DN yet. Mello joins him in searching for his DN.
Sidoh finds Death Note first. Gets in contact with Mello second. Mello gets to use the DN (for the purpose of "good").

No, FZ., if he finds Mello before finding his Death Note, Mello searches for it as well.

thellama73 wrote:Four.

Slowpoke.

Haha zeek.

DharmaHelper wrote:Can I suggest we also try not to just spit guesses at MP.

I was not spitting guesses. I also thought of saying two, but wanted to check if maybe it's just one (aka Misa's DN was relinquished). I think the right answer is still revealing in that regard, by the way.

Was worth a shot.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
The Sockface Death Note Mafia Trivia Game Show
Question 1:
How many Death Notes are currently in circulation?

One.

And then there were three...

FZ. wrote:
Ricochet wrote:In that case, sorry FZ., but I think I'll still go with Russ' potential good check on you and consider that the answer to my third option question is yes: he would have voted for you even if (realised that) he got a role that could turn unlynchable due to lynch pressure. I think this is the best interpretation I can give right now, even if your claims are opposite.
Okay then. If Mata is the one lynched, and she comes out bad, I'll be looking at you closely

Okay then. I would have supported a vote for Mata as well, but I found myself still drawn in more by the case on you.

In that case, sorry FZ., but I think I'll still go with Russ' potential good check on you and consider that the answer to my third option question is yes: he would have voted for you even if (realised that) he got a role that could turn unlynchable due to lynch pressure. I think this is the best interpretation I can give right now, even if your claims are opposite.

FZ. wrote:4 people haven't voted yet:
llama, Zeek, Rico and Bass.
I say at least one of them is bad. Bass is the natural option.
I also have to wonder why BR took the easy way out. If she really thinks both me and Mata are civvies, I'd get it, but she hasn't really stated that she feels that strongly about either of us, so I have to say I'm pinged by that vote.

Wait, at least one of those who haven't voted yet could be bad, but Bass is your natural option? What happened to Llama? Didn't you make a case for his lynch just the other Day? Did you question people to consider him for the lynch just the other Day?

FZ., if I would have had more time than 30 minutes, I would have gone back extensively to your supposedly "insinuative" post.

You say that if Russ would have role checked and got a baddie role, his vote would have depended on whether that role could be lynched or not.

You say that if he got an unlynchable role, he'd have suggested perhaps he thinks you're bad, but he wouldn't have voted for you. (I can agree to this, btw)
You say that the only way he would have voted for you was if he actually got a "baddie role that can be lynched". (I can totally agree with this, btw)

That's two clear, opposite options.

But I think I asked you about a third option: if Russ would have voted you, if he actually got a baddie role that can in theory be lynched, but might turn into an unlynchable role under lynch pressure, namely Light or Misa.

You decided not to answer to this, saying you've said everything there is to say (or maybe you decided not to answer to another question of mine, because I can agree my posts was mixed with questionings, so idk).

Could still give me a quick view on this third option?

MovingPictures07 wrote:Currently 40 minutes until lynch's end and I am missing 4 votes.

I forgot the night was shorter and the deadline was moved two hours earlier.

BR's reasoning caught my attention because I think she is the second (Spacedaisy too) to have said that she won't go with FZ. because she doesn't actually think Epig is a detective and therefore doesn't (or can't) trust any of his cases / agenda etc. Which in abstracto, is perfectly fine. But I haven't seen the same angle of trust taken from Russ' side (a very likely confirmed deceased civ) and his possible check & vote for FZ. Actually Spacedaisy did say she thinks there's too much assumption or guesswork in those math assumptions about Russ' check, any way you take it. But I don't think I noticed any reasoning from BR, instead. They've voted for Elo when L made the call for her (Spacedaisy in good faith, BR more reluctantly).

Still: 100% trust in L...ok, 0% trust in Epig...ok, but not addressing Russ' chance for a good call on FZ being bad (which the math, at least, could possibly be true that it was greater than 50-50) and expressing a degree of trust or not in that...

zeek wrote:I just saw the bit missed about Mata, TH and Rico making good points. Though I'm taking TH with a grain of salt. Spacedaisy as well with the buddying angle. Think I may have missed that page or something!

Not sure how to vote but I've just noticed Mata has 6 votes already. Why's everyone so confident?

linki - Oops. I did that last game with someone else

Don't worry, I also did that a lot in my first game and actually got some heat for that, at least for a while. :P

Not sure where you saw me "making good points" about Mata, though. If it's that Misa BTSC I pointed out - again, it was only meant to clarify things.

heh, zeek screwed up Mata's gender. :P

Matahari wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Matahari wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I'm definitely considering the BTSC angle. They've had it since at least Night 5, and possibly earlier than that. Also notice how Mata recently had a sudden clarity about a bunch of people she thinks are civs, and was totally okay talking openly about those reads, unprovoked by anyone to do so.... despite her later claims of not wanting to discuss who she thinks is civ because it would put targets on their backs. Who would want to rattle off a list of civs like that? Probably a baddie who had recently gained BTSC with (almost) her entire team. Probably a baddie trying to gain the trust of the people she named as civs.

As for the drunken bea angle, the easy answer is that it was Marshy's idea.
Sudden clarity? Thats funny. I have read a few posts about me not posting much, and I do a list at some point in every game. Nothing new or unusual here. Discussing good vs bad, or civ vs mafia is what we do. Even if no one wants to read it, I don't need an invitation to post my thoughts on players as I get them. My list is kind of weak, but it might get stronger as the game goes on. I don't know about the BTSC angle, you said you know which night they had it- well I don't. I am not a part of this 'they'.

Misa Amane (Second Kira) ...
She gains BTSC with Light after one of their Death Notes has been relinquished or taken by Sidoh, or after the end of Night 5, whichever comes first.
Thanks Ricochet for your input, although you are wrong. Please tell me why you think this. I still want to hear what TH thinks.

As for me, I am going to vote FZ today.

I don't know what I am wrong with. I did not intend to imply anything with that, just to clarify that "the BTSC angle" is part of the revealed secrets, since you seemed not to be aware of that.

Matahari wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I'm definitely considering the BTSC angle. They've had it since at least Night 5, and possibly earlier than that. Also notice how Mata recently had a sudden clarity about a bunch of people she thinks are civs, and was totally okay talking openly about those reads, unprovoked by anyone to do so.... despite her later claims of not wanting to discuss who she thinks is civ because it would put targets on their backs. Who would want to rattle off a list of civs like that? Probably a baddie who had recently gained BTSC with (almost) her entire team. Probably a baddie trying to gain the trust of the people she named as civs.

As for the drunken bea angle, the easy answer is that it was Marshy's idea.
Sudden clarity? Thats funny. I have read a few posts about me not posting much, and I do a list at some point in every game. Nothing new or unusual here. Discussing good vs bad, or civ vs mafia is what we do. Even if no one wants to read it, I don't need an invitation to post my thoughts on players as I get them. My list is kind of weak, but it might get stronger as the game goes on. I don't know about the BTSC angle, you said you know which night they had it- well I don't. I am not a part of this 'they'.

Misa Amane (Second Kira) ...
She gains BTSC with Light after one of their Death Notes has been relinquished or taken by Sidoh, or after the end of Night 5, whichever comes first.

I'd also like to mention that DH's problems with Bass' reply to boo are pretty much the same I had, even if I tangled myself a bit in the wording / meaning of his post. I still can't tell much his genuine RL issues affected his performance here, but I already know from experience (Film) that even a low-poster Bass could potentially come with good (even right) reads. By comparison, the suspect list her gave here is really lackluster.

TH, I believe that the problem with you trying to narrow suspects for being "naive about MM" and witholding things about the outcome of his lynch is that narrowing it is currently not easy. I think the pool in fact pretty much covers everybody. There was no dissuasion attempt from the MM lynch whatsoever - Epig and boo were the only ones to give a hindsight-ish opinion after the matter was consumed (and I pointed out in a previous post that Epig's thoughts were a bit fragmentary and also burried three-four Days ago to be so easily picked up on).

The pool even contains you, because I'm not sure why you proposed MM's lynch if you say the "behaviour similarities" between the two of you are so obvious. Were they obvious to you? If yes, why did you persuade players to waste a lynch on him? Nine players went with it based on your rather "traditional" reasoning on MM (him not making himself accountable for the suspects he brought up, not contributing etc.). I dismissed your case as not being quite enough for a "traditional" reasoning which to make me decide on MM rather than others, particularly FZ. I was clear on that in the first quote you point out. I was also clear I didn't have time left to re-read MM properly and that is simply because re-reading the case on FZ consumed too much of my time - there was llama's case, Epig's case, FZs. rebuttal, Epig's further case (the Russ angle), FZs rebuttals and so on. I rather focused on it entirely during that Day.

BTW, you imply "I think you are acting like an obvious Shinigami", but that is simply not true. I'd like to stress that I never once expressed that kind of certainty about you being specifically a Shinigami, the way Epig did. Even in that second quote you pulled, I say "in case...[you are] a brazen, untouchable Shinigami". That quote is from Day 4, before your lynch failed. I didn't express certainty about you being a Shinigami after the lynch, either. Right now, both you and MM are still part of a projection pool I have of, frankly, several roles, not exclusively Shinigami.

[A propos, Two Days earlier than D4, I was actually questioning (in reply to BWT's theory, I think) if you'd be a Shinigami, because I believed Shinigamis would try to get lynched/double-lynched later in the game (mainly because two of them are Team Light Shinigami, so the delay would work in the Symphatizers' favor) rather than intending to out themselves earlier.] That D4 quote is also part of a bigger post in which you left out that I agreed (with Llama) that both you and MM wanting to work more on puzzles rather then get back into lynching debates could a connecting factor. I just didn't build on that after the puzzle matter went cold. Oversight on my behalf.

The last quote you point out is from Day 5 and it does indeed put me in rather a bad light, since it comes after you and MM were the most similar in voting pattern throughout Days 3-4, but I would argue that I meant your early Day 5 vote more than your general early voting habits. You had just survived a lynch and had rushed to vote first, again! MM meanwhile broke the pattern (he voted sixth, which he now reveals was intentional to escape the "Snowman-mechanic" pattern). So your D5 vote aggravated right away how I felt about you specifically, in light of your lynch survival and your gameplay.

So keep me in mind, if you want, because I can't deny that I've done poorly to re-read MM and possibly find an obvious connection, ahead of his lynch, that he would be unlynchable, but I did not do any of that deliberately.

Can anyone else makes sense of what Llama said? These are the revelant parts from his initial and subsequent statements.

thellama73 wrote:There's no way you would be defending yourself this hard if you had an unlynchable role

thellama73 wrote:I don't think she would be defending so hard if she were Mello or Near or a Shinigami.

thellama73 wrote:She was hinting at an unlynchable role. I do not think she has an unlynchable role, like Near or Mello or a Shinigami.

The initial statement made me believe he's excluding FZ. from being any unlynchable role whatsoever. Prompting me to ask him if he thinks she's a bad role that can be lynched (most obvious example being Mikami).

In the second statement, however, he's excluding FZ. just from possibly being one of two detectives or one of the Shinigamis.

In the third statement he apparently states only two detectives and the entire class of Shinigami qualify as unlynchable roles for him. Both the second and third statements prompting me to inquire what about Higuchi and what his theory of the possible current outcome of lynching Light and/or Misa might be.

thellama73 wrote:I don't know whether a lynch of Light or Misa would go through, but I think a player with such a role would be more afraid of being lynched and found out than a civ or Shinigami.

This part I understand better and could agree with.

thellama73 wrote:
Ricochet wrote: linki: Llama, if you think there's no way she's an unlynchable player, do you think she's Mikami? If not, would you still vote to lynch her?
I don't have a certain role in mind for her, but I don't think she would be defending so hard if she were Mello or Near or a Shinigami. I think she is scared, and I think she is bad.

But that's not exactly what you said

thellama73 wrote:There's no way you would be defending yourself this hard if you had an unlynchable role. No way. This smacks of desperation.

Yet from your post above, you're limiting "unlynchable roles" to just Near/Mello and Shinigamis. Do you think a lynch for Misa or Light will go through, right now? Do you believe Higuchi currently has the DN and therefore can be lynched?

Hmm... true.

Sorry about all that in that case.

Man, my readings here don't look encouraging for the Reading part of my test on Saturday.

Turnip Head wrote:Rico, in regards to what Bass said about me and MM, this is what he actually said:

Bass wrote:The reason for the top two is because of them surviving the lynches. I know their are roles that aren't kiras that can survive but why should we just give them a free pass because of that.
So, a little different than what you said he said. But an important difference.

Is it? I thought I did reference that he believes you are unlynchanble non-Kiras and based my questioning starting from that.

I'll have to chime in bit by bit, to every topic, because this afternoon I have to do test preparations and I'll be home late this evening and won't be spending as much time online as usual afterwards either.

Not sure I like Bass's response to boo.
Bass stated his top two suspects and players he'd vote for today are TH and MM.
He says he knows (?) their roles are "non-Kiras that can survive", but still doesn't see why they shouldn't be voted again.

If he claims TH and MM are unlynchable non-Kiras, then we have the following options:
- TH and/or MM are Shinigami. They cannot be lynched at all, only outed upon a second vote.
- TH and/or MM are Near/Mello. They cannot be lynched until L dies.

Judging by this, any result from lynching TH and MM again will result in another no lynch (with or without an outing) aka the least effective lynch result possible for the detectives.

So my questions are:
Why did Bass exclude the variants that TH and MM might be unlynchable Kiras (Light or Misa if they give up DN ownership under lynch pressure, or Higuchi), and
If Bass thinks TH and MM are unlynchable non-Kiras, why does he think a non-lynch result is the best option to go with

Bass also stated Llama as his third suspect and player to vote for (not more important than TH/MM, though), but I think his reasoning is too meta. "Llama pose a question I myself pose in a previous game where the answer was Llama, so what if / maybe / perhaps / etc. Llama pose himself a smokescreen question with the answer being again himself".

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Boo, what do you make of bea getting killed? Don't think I've seen a reaction to it from you. You were pretty adamant in your belief that she is Light. I know you are currently searching for a potential Mikami / Symphatizer, but how does this kill change your beliefs in who Light might be.

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I really have to ponder the most on Epig's numbers and FZ's rebuttal, but picking up some of her ideas from the latter:
"So, if we agree that if Russ got me role checked and got a baddie role, his vote would depend on whether that role could be lynched or not." I suppose this could be true.
"If he got an unlynchable role, he'd say he thinks I'm bad, but he doesn't think I should be voted." I suppose this could be true.
"The only way he'd vote me is if actually got Mikami or whatever baddie role that can be lynched." Here's where I'm not so sure. If we agree Light/Misa would relinquish their DN under lynch pressure and become temporarily unlynchable, are you suggesting we shouldn't even attempt to lynch them because it would be pointless? Why? And what other "baddie role that can be lynched" is there, besides Mikami?

My ideas are the following:
- If Russ was Mogi and checked you and got a bad role that can't be lynched at all right now (Higuchi, Ryuk, Rem) or Sidoh, he may have indeed tried to suggest we pursue another lynch.
- If Russ was Mogi and checked you and got a bad role that can be lynched (Mikami), he would have 100% suggested we pursue lynching you.
- If Russ was Mogi and checked you and got a bad role that might fail to be lynched right now (Light, Misa), he might have still suggested we pursue lynching you.

Unfortunately there are secrets to Mogi's role that have yet not been deciphered, as to make perhaps more sense of his tactics.

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linki: Llama, if you think there's no way she's an unlynchable player, do you think she's Mikami? If not, would you still vote to lynch her?

linki: FZ, you've outed yourself as an unlynchable or as a certain role?

Each topic free to snip.

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