The Syndicate

Also, zebra, you might like to note this post in the middle of the two...

Golden wrote:I'll eat my words if LC is bad, but JJJ just played the entire end of day to his own ends and played us all for fools.

He had his vote on brian all day and, without brian even being around, suddenly declared him to be good.

I think JJ's play all day has been about killing LC, despite any people talking to him about LC. Despite the fact its pointed out by people who know LC well that all the people voting for him do not.

There are only a small handful of explanations for this, and not many of them feel civilian-aligned to me.

I have nothing to reveal later. You can convince yourself I'm lying if you like. There is nothing I've said which is inconsistent with anything.

I said 'if JJJ is civilian, he is a fool'.

I then said 'I take it back JJ, you are not a fool.'

What bit of that do you think is inconsistent with me seeing JJ as bussing LC?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:You've still not told me why I'm scum as a result of those antics though.

I have told you exactly why I think you are scum. I think you pulled a move with LC, to give you cred and to get him off to prepping A World Reborn, which is going to take a huge amount of his time and effort.

Not to mention, I haven't bought a single thing you've been selling this entire game. You are just really off, man. Your questioning of Diiny, your case on LC... it's all shoddy.

I just believe you are bad through and through - I don't have to justify it any more than that. This is supatown golden, and you haven't ever been in my crosshairs before. So get ready for a bumpy ride.

(Of course, JJJ, it is possible you can convince me you are civ. I'm not saying it's impossible. My read back is likely to open up new questions for you. However - I think it is probably 90% likely that you are in fact bad, so it will take some convincing.)

linki - I did not instruct anyone where their FOCUS should be - I instructed you what you should encourage in terms of voting (no reason you can't choose to vote between two people and continue to focus on others). Two very different things.

linki again - you are doing that rico thing of demanding stuff... you wait your turn

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:@JJ - you do not know RM Golden, you know only TS golden and RYM golden. Welcome to RM Golden. I'm going balls to the wall.

I knew what your explanation would be for your antics before you gave it. It was entirely predictable. I didn't need to read or analyse something that was entirely predictable.

It probably was predictable.

@zebra - see why that is not a lie now? Even JJJ himself admits it.

I really like you, Mac, btw.

@JJJ - you say a one-on-one duel is 'not productive to the town cause'. I beg to differ. I wouldn't invite one unless I knew it was. I also don't know what hubris means.

as for 'knowing me' - exactly. You take my point?

@zebra - full admission. I haven't read a single post of your case on JJJ that you keep referring to, so I have no idea what any of it was. You post a lot, and I had to pick and choose with the limited time I had, and you were of low priority given I don't suspect you at all (forgive me). But now I'm home for the weekend, and I'm ready to go. I'll certainly be reading it back.

@zebra - already told you, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything.

@motel room - http://forum.revolutionmafia.com/index.php

This is also where you would find RM Mafia, the game in which LC and I were baddie teammates and tried a similar gambit.

@zebra - anyone who thinks I've lied, or disbelieves even one word of what I say today, should vote to lynch me. End of story.

I'm not going to bother responding to stuff like that beyond that statement. You 'obviously' have not played with me enough to know me.

Wait for the RM regulars to come in they will know me for what I am.

"Objectively less logical"

That's because, sometimes I just believe I've caught a baddie, and pursue them till the ends of the earth. JJJ hasn't felt right for me since the very start of the game, and the end phase of that day pushed it over the edge. It was a bus guys, and I feel entirely sure of it.

@JJ - you do not know RM Golden, you know only TS golden and RYM golden. Welcome to RM Golden. I'm going balls to the wall.

I knew what your explanation would be for your antics before you gave it. It was entirely predictable. I didn't need to read or analyse something that was entirely predictable.

If you don't make today about you and me, one on one, I'll have to call you JJJ the Coward. I have to pass that tag on to someone. G-Man didn't know RM Golden either

@mac - I dunno, but I was a pretty solid defender of LC from the start.

@motel room - well, really, my intent was primarily to see JJJ's immediate reaction, which was a big step backwards.

linki @mac again - exactly. And as JJJ protests about how "I should know him".... well, he should equally know me

If I'm right and Jay is bad, we could break this game open so early the mafia will never recover.

@MacDougall - like I say, if you think I am scum, lynch me.

I encourage that today, there are only two lynch candidates on the table.

One is me, one is Jay. Vote with your feet. Jay for you think it was a bus. Me for you think Jay is a town hero.

King Arthur, here we bloody well come.

Seriously, though, JJJ - lynch me, if you dare

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:How do we feel this LC mafia flip reflects on bea?

I'm feeling something like town as hell, man right now.

Ho, wasn't that ironic literally right after my post.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Golden -- Bad vibes. In the midst of protecting LC, he took the opportunity to go after me for behavior that makes no sense if I'm bad. I think he knows that, and saw an opportunity to capitalize. That's exactly what I was looking for from someone, and Golden ended up being the culprit. When I prodded him to tell me what he thinks I might be doing as a baddie, he had nothing. He even insinuates that he doesn't have to have anything. That's not a good look.

Right back at you buddy. I think you are Long Con's teammate, and he was happy to get out to do A World Reborn, and I'm voting for JJJ right now.

PS - I've been Long Con's partner before and pulled exactly the same move with him, and we were both willing to do it, because we figured it would create the best cover ever. I don't buy your approach at all. If I had a kill, I'd kill you dead right now.

But, if you want to lynch me today, go ahead. I willingly encourage it. It will be in the town's interests to see how you are willing to do something zany and in the process frame someone you know is a good town asset. I think it would be useful for them to see my alignment.

By the way, I'm calling bea out as one of you as well. You, LC, bea, a long term plan from the start. Whoopee.

@bcorn - don't worry, lots of us are low participation right now.

As I said to BR, I don't think you are bad for 'low participation', I thought it because of the content of that participation.

But, now that we are one baddie down, I'm going to spend the weekend recharging and thinking of the whole context of the game from scratch.

LC was bad.

I take it back JJJ, you are not a fool.

Rbzmncaeaei wrote:

bcornett24 wrote:We are allowed to post during the night phase correct?

Boy am I glad you weren't lynched. Yes, we are.

Why so glad?

Matt F wrote:Golden gets pretty into the game, if I recall, just so the RYMers know. I don't think he meant that JJJ was literally a fool. I only wanted to point this out before any arguments occur.

Linki

I play on RYM, they know me!

I'll eat my words if LC is bad, but JJJ just played the entire end of day to his own ends and played us all for fools.

He had his vote on brian all day and, without brian even being around, suddenly declared him to be good.

I think JJ's play all day has been about killing LC, despite any people talking to him about LC. Despite the fact its pointed out by people who know LC well that all the people voting for him do not.

There are only a small handful of explanations for this, and not many of them feel civilian-aligned to me.

Went back to brian. May as well keep my vote where I believe the person is bad.

And now Long Con will get lynched.

JJ, if you are civilian, you are a fool.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:

Rbzmncaeaei wrote:This is what I've been trying to get at for these past few pages Golden, it is not genuinely logical for a civilian to demand specifics where they are unnecessary and choose to hide specifics when they are essential to not getting yourself lynched.

I'm not sure I follow this post, but you agree that JJJ's behaviour is bizarre?

I mean, why demand that I must have a specific anti-mafia strategy in mind for his antics to suspect him...

Suspecting me is not equivalent to wanting me dead immediately.

and if it wasn't half an hour before the lynch, I would have pushed it.

And trust me, I will push it until THE END OF THIS GAME, unless you have a damn good explanation soon.

There is no way in hell your behaviour looks anything like civvie you. I want you dead. Definitely.

I flipped my vote to llama. Long Con took the lead again, and I don't think Long Con is the right way to go.

But... if a tie in the end, I will flip back away.

Rbzmncaeaei wrote:This is what I've been trying to get at for these past few pages Golden, it is not genuinely logical for a civilian to demand specifics where they are unnecessary and choose to hide specifics when they are essential to not getting yourself lynched.

I'm not sure I follow this post, but you agree that JJJ's behaviour is bizarre?

I mean, why demand that I must have a specific anti-mafia strategy in mind for his antics to suspect him...

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'm completely willing to help flip this lynch to JJJ. I don't trust him in the least. Anyone else on board?

Excellent. Why is that Golden? What am I up to?

I have no idea. That's what bothers me. I usually see rationality behind your actions. Possibly, it's something to do with your position as assistant CEO.

I don't know what is going on with you, and I find that incredibly scary.

@BR - what question?

That's not satisfactory. If you think I am bad, which you just implied by "I don't trust him in the least" and your willingness to lynch me right now, then you must have a specific mafia agenda in mind to explain my behavior. So what am I doing?

No, there is no such 'must'.

You just said you think a tie could be consistent with your win condition (more consistent than the other options I propose). I do not think that makes any sense from a civilian mindset. All I need to do is feel like you are not coming from a civilian mindset, and I don't.

@BR - in what sense? Not much in this game, but I think he is usually very switched on as a civ (regardless of how loud or quiet) and comes across as more vague and detached as a baddie.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:I'm completely willing to help flip this lynch to JJJ. I don't trust him in the least. Anyone else on board?

Excellent. Why is that Golden? What am I up to?

I have no idea. That's what bothers me. I usually see rationality behind your actions. Possibly, it's something to do with your position as assistant CEO.

I don't know what is going on with you, and I find that incredibly scary.

@BR - what question?

I'm completely willing to help flip this lynch to JJJ. I don't trust him in the least. Anyone else on board?

JJ

option 1) You think a tie furthers your win condition
option 2) You think lynching llama furthers your win condition
option 3) You think leaving brian alive furthers you win condition.

Which of these it most true?

Of those people with multiple votes on them:

Along with brian, I'd feel ok with a llama or seaside lynch.

I do not agree with a lynch on Long Con or Diiny.

I am entirely neutral on a Sorsha lynch.

Call this a gun-to-head read, if you like.

linki @ BR - tell me about it. I didn't sub in, but I'm currently around 19 pages behind. Admittedly I've probably read some decent chunks of that, but not in order. It's intense. On the bright side, there are LOTS of us struggling to keep up, so you are not alone.

FZ. wrote:Can anyone summarize their suspicion of bcornett please, assuming you are suspicious of him

He reminds me of baddie Brian from RYM87. That's basically it.

Ricochet wrote:Also, your sense of b24 was that he has a meta when he denied having ones, but your sense of me is not having meta when I claim to have. What da heck?

See Rico, every time you talk to me, you just say another thing that makes me feel icky about you.

There is no value to this statement. It is completely accurate, but why should it be confusing? Both of you are claiming things about your own metas that I do not have any evidence to believe, it's a big 'wifom' that you are trying to get me to buy into.

What is even slightly confusing about that statement? That I can think different things are true of different people? If I think one person has a meta, I must think everyone does? It seems to me that this comment has only one function, and that is to get people to look sideways at me and think that I am being inconsistent in my thinking. In fact I am not.

Hey, Rico

If you expect me to correlate to metas in games where I'm not alive and totally active, you are way overestimating me in the first place.

Even so, my sense of you is that you legitimately don't have a meta. I think you are particularly adept at mixing it up, like epi. So, I'm not swayed by meta arguments, and I take you as a case by case basis. I may be wrong about that, but I've personally never had a sense from you of a particular meta for me to catch on to.

I also want to see if brian has the meta he says he doesn't have. I would really like the lynch to go that way today.

But, despite me trying hard, I'm still way behind. Posting is happening so quickly! Thankfully, it's Friday today and then it's weekend and if I haven't caught up before that (I should have some time today) then I'll definitely be caught up tomorrow.

Oh, I completely should have read Sorsha's response first. The thing that pinged me in there was the flip on BWT, but now I see there was no such flip. Never mind and carry on.

linki @JJJ - OK. LC could be bad, but an elaborate fake case is something he would do (on any affiliation) so I don't find it persuasive one way or the other. Just look at recruitment for how LC can spin an immersive tale.

Matt F wrote:I was quite literally the only person pushing the RBZ/Roxy theory, and considering I am known for typing out endless amounts of posts, and considering I've barely played with Sorsha, which was over two years ago, I'm wondering why she typed the above? Perhaps she just has a super good memory of my playstyle despite me not playing with her all that much, which was over two years ago? Or maybe something else...

Anyway, checked out some of her other posts...

At one point, she tells Long Con that she disagrees with him on his mild ping of BWT, but then later...votes BWT.

In addition, after Long Con says that his vote for bea was a fake, she responds saying how she figured that's what Long Con was doing. However, after that, she says "I'm not sure if LC is civ or bad based off his ploy".

Seems a lot of back and forth on her part.

Good catch MR F, this does really ping me... any lack of feeling like the person has a consistent thought process. Sorsha is now on my radar.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con's claim that his early aggression against bea was deliberately false and actually a test is highly dubious for a few reasons:

1. I asked him to expand on his beef with bea and he did so thoroughly, suggesting to me that he had at least some degree of real investment in it.

2. His stated reason did not bear out in his experiment results -- only BWT was implicated apparently and LC didn't even commit substantive suspicion in that direction.

3. It's just plain convenient; it looks like escapism.

We must ask ourselves if LC ever makes the claim that his bea aggression was a test if that conduct doesn't draw the negative attention that it did.

Howe wll do you know LC? I realise that you did not play real time with him in Bullets over Broadway. Have you at all? LC's ability to demonstrate real investment in a completely fake case would not surprise me in the slightest, that's pretty normal LC.

Also, I think you used escapism wrong.

Just putting a vote on brian at least to clearly indicate he is my top suspicion right now.

FZ. wrote:

Golden wrote:Once again, as a function of how little time I have at the moment, I've let myself get behind. Thankfully the game is moving a bit slower, and I do have some time to dedicate to catching up tonight, so you can expect some posts from me after that.

Other than suspecting Rico, you haven't said much that I can recall. Any other suspicions? Can you finally elaborate on you Rico suspicion?

linki: Thanks for answering. What have you learned from your questions?

Well, you should read my posts again.

I've named a number of strong town reads, and I've also said I suspect brian and JJJ. And I voted for rey. I've given quite a bit of content while I've read up.

But I need to do it again. And no, I haven't put my finger on what I don't like about rico, but his responses to me did not help. Especially all that aggressive/intense/defensive stuff. He seems to think you can not be aggressively defensive, but it just reads to me like he was defending himself with semantics instead of trying to actually get across his thought processes.

But I haven't got a holistic view of why the gut feels say rico is bad yet. And anyway, when I'm caught up, I'm not sure if he will stay number one, because I already feel worse about brian than I do about rico.

But, anyway, in terms of my thorough read I'm still back at page 16, and thats where it will stay until tonight my time, because I just haven't really had any spare time during the day to put thought in.

Once again, as a function of how little time I have at the moment, I've let myself get behind. Thankfully the game is moving a bit slower, and I do have some time to dedicate to catching up tonight, so you can expect some posts from me after that.

I agree with those who think bcornett is a likely candidate.

Although poor brian must feel like I always find him suspicious. But I find his denial of him having any meta in particular to be... it just didn't sit right with me.

@MR F - you haven't pinged me, but I'll ask you a question anyway. If someone who has a ping on you is manufacturing it and is a scum trying to set you up, who do you think it would be?

reywaS wrote:

Golden wrote:Sig and BWT seem like stock standard day one suspicions for me. BWT in particular always seems to end up on the chopping block on day one. I haven't found the suspicion on either one convincing.

I got to page 16 thoroughly and really only had time to quickly skim the rest. I have no problem keeping my vote on rico, but I doubt anyone else would join me anyway, so I'm going to do something with the potential to be more meaninful.

I'm joining Mac on a vote for reywas. He has posted in other places (like the wrap up of recruitment) in the time he has not posted here. He may be intentionally playing utr.

I got really far behind....like 10+ pages behind. I'm going to try my best to catch up tomorrow.

I understand, I was there too. Catch up - if you are town, we need your skills.

Strawhenge wrote:I'll do more later tonight.

Is discussion allowed at night?

I see no rule prohibiting it, so I'd assume so (it's normal to be allowed here).

Epignosis wrote:

Golden wrote:I feel better about a rey vote than a russti vote.

@Roxy - isn't that a little hypocritical, given the side you took in the Diiny conversation?

Rey and russti are also content.

Why's that?

I feel as though russti had demonstrated he was genuinely present and ready to contribute, and may have been genuinely busy, whereas rey had posted on other parts of the site while not posting here.

I feel better about a rey vote than a russti vote.

@Roxy - isn't that a little hypocritical, given the side you took in the Diiny conversation?

Rey and russti are also content.

Nor can I, epi.

Diiny and sig work as self-defense.

Epi... who would you, given the absolute discretion to determine who got lynched today, choose to go with?

Sig and BWT seem like stock standard day one suspicions for me. BWT in particular always seems to end up on the chopping block on day one. I haven't found the suspicion on either one convincing.

I got to page 16 thoroughly and really only had time to quickly skim the rest. I have no problem keeping my vote on rico, but I doubt anyone else would join me anyway, so I'm going to do something with the potential to be more meaninful.

I'm joining Mac on a vote for reywas. He has posted in other places (like the wrap up of recruitment) in the time he has not posted here. He may be intentionally playing utr.

FZ. wrote:

Golden wrote:

Epignosis wrote:"Quiet Epi is never a good thing."

Well now let's see.

Raise your hand if loud Epi ever railroaded you when you were a civilian and got your ass lynched.

Raise your hand if you wished loud Epi would have shutted up the fuck.

I thought so.

I don't see why me being quiet is "never a good thing."

I concur with epi again.

Does concurring with him affect your trust of him? Do you not find it a little weird that Epi has done nothing to attract any attention so far? Is that what you expect of him in his civvie mode?

I expect that how abrasive epi is, is not inherently linked to his affiliation. So it does not make me think he is specifically good or bad. Last time I played with Epi and he was like this, he was not bad.

@Rico

Your rebuttal to me appears to be that I should know how intense you get when defending yourself, but then you want to be pedantic at me about how can you be both aggressive and defensive. Do you think your use of 'intense' and my use of 'aggressive' might be talking about one and the same?

Also, rico, it appears I have only just now gotten to your rebuttal, so I couldn't really take it into account until I got there.

Ricochet wrote:Catching up myself as quickly as possible.

Golden wrote:I will say that in reading LC's further explanation of his vote for bea, I came to understand it and find the potential links between bea and rico significant. I feel even more sure of my vote for rico as things stand at the moment, I think it would be a wise way to go.

I will repeat that I do NOT think Diiny is a wise way to go and it bothers me that he has continued to be the person with the most votes. I will use my vote in defence of Diiny if necessary.

I only remember LC stating one time that bea not seeing what FZ saw as suspicion of me will be a defending cue, if either of us flip bad - with which, incidentally, I don't agree; I'm not myself responsible for every (or any) players chiming in to discussion about me looking suspicious. By this angle, we'd be witch hunting every player that a flipped baddie "defended" or agreed with and get, likely, awful results.

You've addressed nothing from my rebuttal. Are you a sock as Golden or is it the real you playing, cause you're making me real curious with this attitude. I'm getting real quick tired of hearing this empty "I feel sure about my suspicion / I don't feel better about his rebuttal" type of comments, coming from several players already. Let's discuss it.

Please respect my opinions, they will be respected some day.

I haven't built a case on you for you to rebut, so I'm not sure why I would have any feelings on your rebuttal.

I have to figure out why I get bad feels from you before I can figure out whether or not your rebuttal means anything to me.

I don't have time to do that until I've caught up, but I am on page 15.